Windows 11 - Page 3

quadraginta · 29th June 2021, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Yeah, I think "beta" covers a multitude of sins nowadays.

"Beta" means you're welcome to try it out but don't come whining to us if something breaks. You're welcome to let us know about it, though.

Essentially a large scale bug testing effort as well as a dry run to see how people react to the changes.

I really don't see anything wrong with that. As complex as modern programs have become, its virtually impossible to shake them down for every possible flaw. This is a way to get as much as possible done in-house, and then let it out into the wild ... with fair warning.

eerok · 29th June 2021, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Looking forward to the newest version of ~~Classic Shell~~ Open Shell that will surely be necessary to make whatever new UI windows cooks up useable.

I agree that Windows start menus have sucked horribly in recent years. I couldn't stomach the 8/10 abominations.

quadraginta · 30th June 2021, 09:30 AM

MS has temporarily taken down the diagnostic tool it had provided for people to check Win11 compatibility.

I suspect that the clamor has reached some ears within the halls of power.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 30th June 2021, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

"Beta" means you're welcome to try it out but don't come whining to us if something breaks. You're welcome to let us know about it, though.

Essentially a large scale bug testing effort as well as a dry run to see how people react to the changes.

I really don't see anything wrong with that. As complex as modern programs have become, its virtually impossible to shake them down for every possible flaw. This is a way to get as much as possible done in-house, and then let it out into the wild ... with fair warning.

I wasn't claiming any differently.

quadraginta · 30th June 2021, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I wasn't claiming any differently.

I know that. I wasn't chastising you. Just expanding on your comment.

It's all good, mate.

Darat · 1st July 2021, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

MS has temporarily taken down the diagnostic tool it had provided for people to check Win11 compatibility.

I suspect that the clamor has reached some ears within the halls of power.

Seems still to be there for me?

quadraginta · 1st July 2021, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Seems still to be there for me?

I was repeating what was reported in a tech site I get newsletters from.

They are generally reliable. I might be able to find it again.

ETA: Here it is. Well, one of them, anyway.

Quote:

After the new operating system was officially announced on June 24, users were able to access the PC Health Check app to check compatibility. First, users were given a hard “no” if their device wasn’t, with no explanation. Shortly after, Microsoft updated the tool to provide a brief explanation if a device wasn’t compatible.

Now, the company quietly announced it is removing the tool entirely. The statement was buried two blog posts deep in its latest “Insider Preview” blog entry for June 28. An unassuming link in that blog encouraged readers to read yet another blog post “Preparing for Insider Preview Builds of Windows 11,” which featured an update at the top with a link where readers could learn more about an “Update on Windows 11 minimum system requirements.”

Near the bottom of that blog, Microsoft states “With these minimum system requirements in mind, the PC Health Check app was intended to help people check if their current Windows 10 PC could upgrade to Windows 11. Based on the feedback so far, we acknowledge that it was not fully prepared to share the level of detail or accuracy you expected from us on why a Windows 10 PC doesn’t meet upgrade requirements. We are temporarily removing the app so that our teams can address the feedback. We will get it back online in preparation for general availability this fall.”

So the source was, apparently, Microsoft.

Upon reflection, not all that reliable, I suppose.

ETA 2: Is it possible that the tool you tried is one you had resident on your machine? I still have copies on both of mine, although I haven't tried to run them again.

Perhaps it is just not available for download now.

rjh01 · 1st July 2021, 07:37 PM

How many desktop computers have a webcam? You need one for Windows 11 (or so says the above link).

On the other hand, it might not be a bad idea to have them as standard. Meetings are now frequently held via the internet. Plus speech to text software is becoming more common. This is in addition to their use as a password alternative.

Darat · 2nd July 2021, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I was repeating what was reported in a tech site I get newsletters from.

They are generally reliable. I might be able to find it again.

ETA: Here it is. Well, one of them, anyway.

So the source was, apparently, Microsoft.

Upon reflection, not all that reliable, I suppose.

ETA 2: Is it possible that the tool you tried is one you had resident on your machine? I still have copies on both of mine, although I haven't tried to run them again.

Perhaps it is just not available for download now.

I was probably looking at a cached page.

Darat · 2nd July 2021, 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

How many desktop computers have a webcam? You need one for Windows 11 (or so says the above link).

On the other hand, it might not be a bad idea to have them as standard. Meetings are now frequently held via the internet. Plus speech to text software is becoming more common. This is in addition to their use as a password alternative.

Nope - that is for laptops not desktops.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 2nd July 2021, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

How many desktop computers have a webcam? You need one for Windows 11 (or so says the above link).

Really? I'm definitely holding out until Windows 10 becomes obsolete, then. Maybe then I will end up on Linux, running a VM for my old programmes.

I guess it makes sense, as part of the whole "Teams is integrated into the OS" thing. There's little point having Teams if you don't have a webcam, and therefore it's the users who are wrong for not having one.

Quote:

On the other hand, it might not be a bad idea to have them as standard. Meetings are now frequently held via the internet. Plus speech to text software is becoming more common. This is in addition to their use as a password alternative.

All of that is stuff I do on my iPhone or iPad. I use my desktop differently to either. I have no use for a webcam on my desktop, and I'm certainly not going to buy one just so I can get a mostly aesthetic update for Windows. That's more of a dealbreaker than needing a Microsoft account would be.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 2nd July 2021, 03:32 AM

Ah, it seems that this is a requirement for laptops: https://windowsreport.com/windows-11-webcam-mandatory/

Quote:

The tech giant adds that all devices, except for PCs, will be required to have a forward-facing webcam in the near future.

There's an image under that sentence of the official documentation, which specifically says that desktops are excluded.

Worm · 2nd July 2021, 04:31 AM

I can understand a drive to encourage webcams - why should they be a necessary requirement for the OS? and if it is - why only laptops? Seems very odd to me, but then I am a bear of very little brain.

zooterkin · 2nd July 2021, 07:12 AM

Will the OS check that the webcam is not covered in masking tape?

Mongrel · 2nd July 2021, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Worm

I can understand a drive to encourage webcams - why should they be a necessary requirement for the OS? and if it is - why only laptops? Seems very odd to me, but then I am a bear of very little brain.

It's probably for Window Hello, their face recognition logon feature.

Worm · 2nd July 2021, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Mongrel

It's probably for Window Hello, their face recognition logon feature.

Absolutely. I use facial recognition for login - it's great. But a requirement? Seems an odd choice to me.

quadraginta · 2nd July 2021, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mongrel

It's probably for Window Hello, their face recognition logon feature.

And if that's the case then any old webcam will not be enough. It will have to be one with infrared capability compatible with the Hello Windows specification.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 3rd July 2021, 03:46 AM

I like biometric security, and I like the push by both Microsoft and Apple towards a system where logging on to services other than their own will be biometric rather than username and password-based, but I'm not sure about it being a requirement. That seems a little "we know what's good for you, even if you don't" for my tastes.

And I'm not sure about a camera-only facial recognition system, either. Microsoft quotes the false positive rate as being 1 in 200,000, which isn't terrible, but is significantly higher than Face ID's 1 in 1,000,000.

There's also a part of me that wonders whether this push towards biometric security isn't going to lead to a potential problem in the future that we just haven't seen. There are definitely problems with passwords (and, thus far, all services that use biometric ID also have a password as back-up and therefore aren't actually any more secure than the password itself - if anything they're less secure because there's one more method to entry), but if your password is compromised then you change your password, whereas if someone has managed to create a way to bypass your biometric security you can't exactly get a new face. And they only have to do it once to gain access to everything.

I don't think that's anything close to being a problem at the moment, and seems geared more towards people who know you stealing a physical device you own while also having some method of bypassing your biometric ID which is not exactly a likely scenario for a vast majority of people, but it is a potential pitfall that I don't see any way around should it actually become a problem. At the moment, if someone steals my phone they can't get it and I can brick it remotely. If everything is biometric and they have some way of spoofing it then they can actually lock me out of my account so I can't brick it, and then drain my bank account, my investments, etc.

quadraginta · 3rd July 2021, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I like biometric security, and I like the push by both Microsoft and Apple towards a system where logging on to services other than their own will be biometric rather than username and password-based, but I'm not sure about it being a requirement. That seems a little "we know what's good for you, even if you don't" for my tastes.

And I'm not sure about a camera-only facial recognition system, either. Microsoft quotes the false positive rate as being 1 in 200,000, which isn't terrible, but is significantly higher than Face ID's 1 in 1,000,000.

<snip>

It isn't clear to me that MS is going to demand that Win11 systems use only their Hello Windows facial recognition as the sole security. It may just be that the want the machines it is installed on to be capable of using it.

I guess we'll see.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 3rd July 2021, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

It isn't clear to me that MS is going to demand that Win11 systems use only their Hello Windows facial recognition as the sole security. It may just be that the want the machines it is installed on to be capable of using it.

I guess we'll see.

That's not what I meant. I mean that Microsoft seems to use normal cameras, which can only see pictures in 2D. Apple's system uses lidar, which creates a 3D model, which will therefore be more accurate and less fallible. And, indeed, the figures above suggest that Hello is 5 times more likely to turn up a false positive than Face ID is.

quadraginta · 3rd July 2021, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

That's not what I meant. I mean that Microsoft seems to use normal cameras, which can only see pictures in 2D. Apple's system uses lidar, which creates a 3D model, which will therefore be more accurate and less fallible. And, indeed, the figures above suggest that Hello is 5 times more likely to turn up a false positive than Face ID is.

MS does not use "normal cameras" for its Windows Hello system. They have to be IR (infrared) capable cameras which conform to the specifications for the Windows Hello identification system. Not all cameras have this IR capability, and not all of the ones that do are compliant.

The IR technology is definitely 3D. In fact, the main difference between lidar and IR cameras is that lidar uses a light frequency which is slightly different (but close to) infrared.

As to the relative superiority of MS vs. Apple's approach, it is not evident to me that the fundamental basis of the variation in the statistics you mentioned is accounted for solely by the choice between lidar and infrared.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 4th July 2021, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

The IR technology is definitely 3D. In fact, the main difference between lidar and IR cameras is that lidar uses a light frequency which is slightly different (but close to) infrared.

As to the relative superiority of MS vs. Apple's approach, it is not evident to me that the fundamental basis of the variation in the statistics you mentioned is accounted for solely by the choice between lidar and infrared.

Fair enough. I suppose I was still going by old reports of it being spoofed by people holding up pictures of faces.

arthwollipot · 6th July 2021, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Lots of small cosmetic changes but not followed all the way through. For example windows, menus and dialogues are now rounded but if I hover my mouse over say the browser icon the thumbnail preview image is still a harsh rectangle. ETA - if you let windows snap to an edge of the screen the windows become squared off.

What's the radius of the rounding? A small-radius rounding I can handle. But if they go full squircle it could be a little hard to take.

Darat · 6th July 2021, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

What's the radius of the rounding? A small-radius rounding I can handle. But if they go full squircle it could be a little hard to take.

Here you go

Wudang · 6th July 2021, 06:33 AM

A few PCs back (possibly XP) I bought a copy of Stardock's Windowblinds just to put a really minimalist style on windows. I don't want anything that distracts from the information. My browser windows are always a comfortable size for my eyes to quickly track a line of text - roughly a standard paperback line of text.

Leftus · 6th July 2021, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

My Ryzen 5 3600, 16GB RAM, SDD, DirectX12 workhorse PC isn't compatible! That seems very strange

It probably is. W11 requires, for some reason, a TPM and secure boot. Motherboards generally have those things off as default. You may need to dig around in the bios and turn them on.

quadraginta · 6th July 2021, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Leftus

It probably is. W11 requires, for some reason, a TPM and secure boot. Motherboards generally have those things off as default. You may need to dig around in the bios and turn them on.

As I said upthread, I did all that with my Ryzen 2500u equipped laptop. (Ryzen 2000 and above are supposed to be compatible. But apparently not all of them are.)

TPM 2.0 enabled, check. Secure boot enabled, check.

Compatibility? No go.

The Ryzen 2500 is not on the MS list of compatible CPUs.

alfaniner · 6th July 2021, 06:38 PM

Doing regular stuff on the laptop and suddenly my browser is going all wonky. Rebooted, restarted, ran Spybot and MalWareBytes, and restarted again, only to get a message that there's a Windows update to install and it requires another restart. Experience tells me that the automatic download was what was causing the problems in the first place.

I'd had that disabled on my previous laptop but not on this one. Yet.

arthwollipot · 6th July 2021, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Here you go

That's not awful. In fact I think I quite like it. It gives the window a more... organic feel.

portlandatheist · 6th July 2021, 08:29 PM

Rounded corners!

alfaniner · 7th July 2021, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Rounded corners!

I wonder if that's going to make it more difficult to actually grab a corner in order to resize the window.

Darat · 7th July 2021, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I wonder if that's going to make it more difficult to actually grab a corner in order to resize the window.

Nope - the active mouseover area for resizing hasn't change, it's a visual change only.

mgidm86 · 9th July 2021, 05:01 PM

Well guess it's time to quit Win 7 and try Win 10 now.

grmcdorman · 9th July 2021, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Well guess it's time to quit Win 7 and try Win 10 now.

FYI, Microsoft still hasn't disabled the free upgrade path from W7 to W10, they just don't advertise it. Easy to find out how to do the upgrade if you search online.

gnome · 9th July 2021, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Well guess it's time to quit Win 7 and try Win 10 now.

I loved Windows 7, but I was able to tweak Windows 10 into a satisfactory state. The only thing that vexed me ultimately was trouble with many 16-bit applications not working anymore. I can emulate DOS applications, but I haven't figured out how to get Windows software from a certain era to run or emulate. Full Tilt Pinball, for example.

arthwollipot · 12th July 2021, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

I loved Windows 7, but I was able to tweak Windows 10 into a satisfactory state. The only thing that vexed me ultimately was trouble with many 16-bit applications not working anymore. I can emulate DOS applications, but I haven't figured out how to get Windows software from a certain era to run or emulate. Full Tilt Pinball, for example.

Check out Good Old Games (GOG.com). If it's old games you're looking for, there's plenty there that are optimised for a modern operating system. First game I installed and played on my new high-powered gaming rig was The Dig (1995). Second was Pharoah (with the Cleopatra expansion) (1999).

gnome · 12th July 2021, 07:01 AM

Indeed, my primary platform is now Good Old Games, because their launcher can detect and run other platforms and now my game shortcuts are in one place. I love playing old games through them because they have the kinks worked out better than even using DOSBox myself.

However, Full Tilt Pinball is definitely not one of them--in fact I think I found out that some Windows games from that particular era specifically cannot be emulated in Windows 10... something to do with 16-bit applications. So far I think there is a VMWare solution where you're actually running an older version of Windows (XP?) as a virtual machine can work, but I get bogged down in the setup.

theprestige · 12th July 2021, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

I agree that Windows start menus have sucked horribly in recent years. I couldn't stomach the 8/10 abominations.

The seemed fine to me. Not as useful for my purposes, but by that time I'd stopped relying on them anyway, in favor of pinning my favorites to the taskbar.

theprestige · 12th July 2021, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I wasn't claiming any differently.

That confused me a bit. You said beta hides a multitude of sins. To me that connotes a certain viciousness and dishonesty. quadraginta makes an argument that it's essentially virtuous and honest.

eerok · 12th July 2021, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

The seemed fine to me. Not as useful for my purposes, but by that time I'd stopped relying on them anyway, in favor of pinning my favorites to the taskbar.

The Windows start menu is hideous and seems to serve the purposes of MS more than my own. It's full of crap I don't want. Fortunately it was a simple fix to get rid of it. I also mostly use the taskbar, but still.

29th June 2021, 04:23 PM	#81
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Yeah, I think "beta" covers a multitude of sins nowadays. "Beta" means you're welcome to try it out but don't come whining to us if something breaks. You're welcome to let us know about it, though. Essentially a large scale bug testing effort as well as a dry run to see how people react to the changes. I really don't see anything wrong with that. As complex as modern programs have become, its virtually impossible to shake them down for every possible flaw. This is a way to get as much as possible done in-house, and then let it out into the wild ... with fair warning.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 29th June 2021 at 04:24 PM.

29th June 2021, 06:15 PM	#82
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 4,928	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Looking forward to the newest version of ~~Classic Shell~~ Open Shell that will surely be necessary to make whatever new UI windows cooks up useable. I agree that Windows start menus have sucked horribly in recent years. I couldn't stomach the 8/10 abominations.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

30th June 2021, 09:30 AM	#83
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	MS has temporarily taken down the diagnostic tool it had provided for people to check Win11 compatibility. I suspect that the clamor has reached some ears within the halls of power.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

30th June 2021, 02:06 PM	#84
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by quadraginta "Beta" means you're welcome to try it out but don't come whining to us if something breaks. You're welcome to let us know about it, though. Essentially a large scale bug testing effort as well as a dry run to see how people react to the changes. I really don't see anything wrong with that. As complex as modern programs have become, its virtually impossible to shake them down for every possible flaw. This is a way to get as much as possible done in-house, and then let it out into the wild ... with fair warning. I wasn't claiming any differently.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

30th June 2021, 03:08 PM	#85
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I wasn't claiming any differently. I know that. I wasn't chastising you. Just expanding on your comment. It's all good, mate.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 30th June 2021 at 03:09 PM.

1st July 2021, 05:09 AM	#86
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,892	Originally Posted by quadraginta MS has temporarily taken down the diagnostic tool it had provided for people to check Win11 compatibility. I suspect that the clamor has reached some ears within the halls of power. Seems still to be there for me?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

1st July 2021, 03:40 PM	#87
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Darat Seems still to be there for me? I was repeating what was reported in a tech site I get newsletters from. They are generally reliable. I might be able to find it again. ETA: Here it is. Well, one of them, anyway. Quote: After the new operating system was officially announced on June 24, users were able to access the PC Health Check app to check compatibility. First, users were given a hard “no” if their device wasn’t, with no explanation. Shortly after, Microsoft updated the tool to provide a brief explanation if a device wasn’t compatible. Now, the company quietly announced it is removing the tool entirely. The statement was buried two blog posts deep in its latest “Insider Preview” blog entry for June 28. An unassuming link in that blog encouraged readers to read yet another blog post “Preparing for Insider Preview Builds of Windows 11,” which featured an update at the top with a link where readers could learn more about an “Update on Windows 11 minimum system requirements.” Near the bottom of that blog, Microsoft states “With these minimum system requirements in mind, the PC Health Check app was intended to help people check if their current Windows 10 PC could upgrade to Windows 11. Based on the feedback so far, we acknowledge that it was not fully prepared to share the level of detail or accuracy you expected from us on why a Windows 10 PC doesn’t meet upgrade requirements. We are temporarily removing the app so that our teams can address the feedback. We will get it back online in preparation for general availability this fall.” So the source was, apparently, Microsoft. Upon reflection, not all that reliable, I suppose. ETA 2: Is it possible that the tool you tried is one you had resident on your machine? I still have copies on both of mine, although I haven't tried to run them again. Perhaps it is just not available for download now.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 1st July 2021 at 03:52 PM.

1st July 2021, 07:37 PM	#88
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,291	How many desktop computers have a webcam? You need one for Windows 11 (or so says the above link). On the other hand, it might not be a bad idea to have them as standard. Meetings are now frequently held via the internet. Plus speech to text software is becoming more common. This is in addition to their use as a password alternative.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

2nd July 2021, 03:02 AM	#89
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,892	Originally Posted by quadraginta I was repeating what was reported in a tech site I get newsletters from. They are generally reliable. I might be able to find it again. ETA: Here it is. Well, one of them, anyway. So the source was, apparently, Microsoft. Upon reflection, not all that reliable, I suppose. ETA 2: Is it possible that the tool you tried is one you had resident on your machine? I still have copies on both of mine, although I haven't tried to run them again. Perhaps it is just not available for download now. I was probably looking at a cached page.
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2nd July 2021, 03:04 AM	#90
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,892	Originally Posted by rjh01 How many desktop computers have a webcam? You need one for Windows 11 (or so says the above link). On the other hand, it might not be a bad idea to have them as standard. Meetings are now frequently held via the internet. Plus speech to text software is becoming more common. This is in addition to their use as a password alternative. Nope - that is for laptops not desktops.
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2nd July 2021, 03:29 AM	#91
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by rjh01 How many desktop computers have a webcam? You need one for Windows 11 (or so says the above link). Really? I'm definitely holding out until Windows 10 becomes obsolete, then. Maybe then I will end up on Linux, running a VM for my old programmes. I guess it makes sense, as part of the whole "Teams is integrated into the OS" thing. There's little point having Teams if you don't have a webcam, and therefore it's the users who are wrong for not having one. Quote: On the other hand, it might not be a bad idea to have them as standard. Meetings are now frequently held via the internet. Plus speech to text software is becoming more common. This is in addition to their use as a password alternative. All of that is stuff I do on my iPhone or iPad. I use my desktop differently to either. I have no use for a webcam on my desktop, and I'm certainly not going to buy one just so I can get a mostly aesthetic update for Windows. That's more of a dealbreaker than needing a Microsoft account would be.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

2nd July 2021, 03:32 AM	#92
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Ah, it seems that this is a requirement for laptops: https://windowsreport.com/windows-11-webcam-mandatory/ Quote: The tech giant adds that all devices, except for PCs, will be required to have a forward-facing webcam in the near future. There's an image under that sentence of the official documentation, which specifically says that desktops are excluded.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

2nd July 2021, 04:31 AM	#93
Worm Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Dundee Posts: 3,428	I can understand a drive to encourage webcams - why should they be a necessary requirement for the OS? and if it is - why only laptops? Seems very odd to me, but then I am a bear of very little brain.
	__________________ "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness Last edited by Worm; 2nd July 2021 at 04:35 AM.

2nd July 2021, 07:12 AM	#94
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,245	Will the OS check that the webcam is not covered in masking tape?
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2nd July 2021, 10:19 AM	#95
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,137	Originally Posted by Worm I can understand a drive to encourage webcams - why should they be a necessary requirement for the OS? and if it is - why only laptops? Seems very odd to me, but then I am a bear of very little brain. It's probably for Window Hello, their face recognition logon feature.
	__________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer Last edited by Mongrel; 2nd July 2021 at 10:21 AM.

2nd July 2021, 10:32 AM	#96
Worm Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Dundee Posts: 3,428	Originally Posted by Mongrel It's probably for Window Hello, their face recognition logon feature. Absolutely. I use facial recognition for login - it's great. But a requirement? Seems an odd choice to me.
	__________________ "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness

2nd July 2021, 04:28 PM	#97
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Mongrel It's probably for Window Hello, their face recognition logon feature. And if that's the case then any old webcam will not be enough. It will have to be one with infrared capability compatible with the Hello Windows specification.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

3rd July 2021, 03:46 AM	#98
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	I like biometric security, and I like the push by both Microsoft and Apple towards a system where logging on to services other than their own will be biometric rather than username and password-based, but I'm not sure about it being a requirement. That seems a little "we know what's good for you, even if you don't" for my tastes. And I'm not sure about a camera-only facial recognition system, either. Microsoft quotes the false positive rate as being 1 in 200,000, which isn't terrible, but is significantly higher than Face ID's 1 in 1,000,000. There's also a part of me that wonders whether this push towards biometric security isn't going to lead to a potential problem in the future that we just haven't seen. There are definitely problems with passwords (and, thus far, all services that use biometric ID also have a password as back-up and therefore aren't actually any more secure than the password itself - if anything they're less secure because there's one more method to entry), but if your password is compromised then you change your password, whereas if someone has managed to create a way to bypass your biometric security you can't exactly get a new face. And they only have to do it once to gain access to everything. I don't think that's anything close to being a problem at the moment, and seems geared more towards people who know you stealing a physical device you own while also having some method of bypassing your biometric ID which is not exactly a likely scenario for a vast majority of people, but it is a potential pitfall that I don't see any way around should it actually become a problem. At the moment, if someone steals my phone they can't get it and I can brick it remotely. If everything is biometric and they have some way of spoofing it then they can actually lock me out of my account so I can't brick it, and then drain my bank account, my investments, etc.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. Last edited by Squeegee Beckenheim; 3rd July 2021 at 03:48 AM.

3rd July 2021, 03:25 PM	#99
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I like biometric security, and I like the push by both Microsoft and Apple towards a system where logging on to services other than their own will be biometric rather than username and password-based, but I'm not sure about it being a requirement. That seems a little "we know what's good for you, even if you don't" for my tastes. And I'm not sure about a camera-only facial recognition system, either. Microsoft quotes the false positive rate as being 1 in 200,000, which isn't terrible, but is significantly higher than Face ID's 1 in 1,000,000. <snip> It isn't clear to me that MS is going to demand that Win11 systems use only their Hello Windows facial recognition as the sole security. It may just be that the want the machines it is installed on to be capable of using it. I guess we'll see.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

3rd July 2021, 03:33 PM	#100
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by quadraginta It isn't clear to me that MS is going to demand that Win11 systems use only their Hello Windows facial recognition as the sole security. It may just be that the want the machines it is installed on to be capable of using it. I guess we'll see. That's not what I meant. I mean that Microsoft seems to use normal cameras, which can only see pictures in 2D. Apple's system uses lidar, which creates a 3D model, which will therefore be more accurate and less fallible. And, indeed, the figures above suggest that Hello is 5 times more likely to turn up a false positive than Face ID is.
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3rd July 2021, 04:08 PM	#101
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim That's not what I meant. I mean that Microsoft seems to use normal cameras, which can only see pictures in 2D. Apple's system uses lidar, which creates a 3D model, which will therefore be more accurate and less fallible. And, indeed, the figures above suggest that Hello is 5 times more likely to turn up a false positive than Face ID is. MS does not use "normal cameras" for its Windows Hello system. They have to be IR (infrared) capable cameras which conform to the specifications for the Windows Hello identification system. Not all cameras have this IR capability, and not all of the ones that do are compliant. The IR technology is definitely 3D. In fact, the main difference between lidar and IR cameras is that lidar uses a light frequency which is slightly different (but close to) infrared. As to the relative superiority of MS vs. Apple's approach, it is not evident to me that the fundamental basis of the variation in the statistics you mentioned is accounted for solely by the choice between lidar and infrared.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

4th July 2021, 03:48 AM	#102
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by quadraginta The IR technology is definitely 3D. In fact, the main difference between lidar and IR cameras is that lidar uses a light frequency which is slightly different (but close to) infrared. As to the relative superiority of MS vs. Apple's approach, it is not evident to me that the fundamental basis of the variation in the statistics you mentioned is accounted for solely by the choice between lidar and infrared. Fair enough. I suppose I was still going by old reports of it being spoofed by people holding up pictures of faces.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

6th July 2021, 12:06 AM	#103
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,485	Originally Posted by Darat Lots of small cosmetic changes but not followed all the way through. For example windows, menus and dialogues are now rounded but if I hover my mouse over say the browser icon the thumbnail preview image is still a harsh rectangle. ETA - if you let windows snap to an edge of the screen the windows become squared off. What's the radius of the rounding? A small-radius rounding I can handle. But if they go full squircle it could be a little hard to take.
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6th July 2021, 06:33 AM	#105
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	A few PCs back (possibly XP) I bought a copy of Stardock's Windowblinds just to put a really minimalist style on windows. I don't want anything that distracts from the information. My browser windows are always a comfortable size for my eyes to quickly track a line of text - roughly a standard paperback line of text.
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6th July 2021, 06:57 AM	#106
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,817	Originally Posted by Darat My Ryzen 5 3600, 16GB RAM, SDD, DirectX12 workhorse PC isn't compatible! That seems very strange It probably is. W11 requires, for some reason, a TPM and secure boot. Motherboards generally have those things off as default. You may need to dig around in the bios and turn them on.
Leftus Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,817

6th July 2021, 05:17 PM	#107
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Leftus It probably is. W11 requires, for some reason, a TPM and secure boot. Motherboards generally have those things off as default. You may need to dig around in the bios and turn them on. As I said upthread, I did all that with my Ryzen 2500u equipped laptop. (Ryzen 2000 and above are supposed to be compatible. But apparently not all of them are.) TPM 2.0 enabled, check. Secure boot enabled, check. Compatibility? No go. The Ryzen 2500 is not on the MS list of compatible CPUs.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

6th July 2021, 06:38 PM	#108
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,618	Doing regular stuff on the laptop and suddenly my browser is going all wonky. Rebooted, restarted, ran Spybot and MalWareBytes, and restarted again, only to get a message that there's a Windows update to install and it requires another restart. Experience tells me that the automatic download was what was causing the problems in the first place. I'd had that disabled on my previous laptop but not on this one. Yet.
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6th July 2021, 06:45 PM	#109
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,485	Originally Posted by Darat Here you go That's not awful. In fact I think I quite like it. It gives the window a more... organic feel.
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6th July 2021, 08:29 PM	#110
portlandatheist Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,703	Rounded corners!

7th July 2021, 05:36 AM	#111
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,618	Originally Posted by portlandatheist Rounded corners! I wonder if that's going to make it more difficult to actually grab a corner in order to resize the window.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

7th July 2021, 07:02 AM	#112
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,892	Originally Posted by alfaniner I wonder if that's going to make it more difficult to actually grab a corner in order to resize the window. Nope - the active mouseover area for resizing hasn't change, it's a visual change only.
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9th July 2021, 05:01 PM	#113
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,778	Well guess it's time to quit Win 7 and try Win 10 now.
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9th July 2021, 07:13 PM	#114
grmcdorman Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,390	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Well guess it's time to quit Win 7 and try Win 10 now. FYI, Microsoft still hasn't disabled the free upgrade path from W7 to W10, they just don't advertise it. Easy to find out how to do the upgrade if you search online.
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9th July 2021, 07:30 PM	#115
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 12,931	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Well guess it's time to quit Win 7 and try Win 10 now. I loved Windows 7, but I was able to tweak Windows 10 into a satisfactory state. The only thing that vexed me ultimately was trouble with many 16-bit applications not working anymore. I can emulate DOS applications, but I haven't figured out how to get Windows software from a certain era to run or emulate. Full Tilt Pinball, for example.
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12th July 2021, 12:11 AM	#116
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,485	Originally Posted by gnome I loved Windows 7, but I was able to tweak Windows 10 into a satisfactory state. The only thing that vexed me ultimately was trouble with many 16-bit applications not working anymore. I can emulate DOS applications, but I haven't figured out how to get Windows software from a certain era to run or emulate. Full Tilt Pinball, for example. Check out Good Old Games (GOG.com). If it's old games you're looking for, there's plenty there that are optimised for a modern operating system. First game I installed and played on my new high-powered gaming rig was The Dig (1995). Second was Pharoah (with the Cleopatra expansion) (1999).
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