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Tags microsoft , Windows 10 , Windows 11

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Old 11th August 2021, 01:09 AM   #201
Darat
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Stardock has come out with their Windows 10 start menu for Windows 11 - Start11

https://www.stardock.com/products/start11/
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Old 27th August 2021, 12:42 PM   #202
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The Verge is reporting that Microsoft will allow people to install Windows 11 on PCs with older CPUs but they'll have to go old school and download the ISO to update, not through Windows Update.

https://www.theverge.com/22644194/mi...essors-changes
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Old 27th August 2021, 01:26 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The Verge is reporting that Microsoft will allow people to install Windows 11 on PCs with older CPUs but they'll have to go old school and download the ISO to update, not through Windows Update.

https://www.theverge.com/22644194/mi...essors-changes
MS is always doing things like this. They should change their name to MicroWaffle.
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Old 28th August 2021, 07:27 AM   #204
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Oh god, time to switch to Linux like I'm always threatening to do.

How do i Linux
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Old 28th August 2021, 07:32 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Oh god, time to switch to Linux like I'm always threatening to do.

How do i Linux
Why - what can't you do with do with Windows 11 that you are doing now (presumably with another version of Windows)?
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Old 28th August 2021, 07:45 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
MS is always doing things like this. They should change their name to MicroWaffle.

I don’t see this as a bad thing. They listen to concerns and complaints from their customers, and adjust accordingly. Not a bad thing, I’m this case.


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Old 28th August 2021, 08:03 AM   #207
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Sometimes it's clear they should have sought out and considered feedback before making an announcement.
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Old 28th August 2021, 08:58 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Sometimes it's clear they should have sought out and considered feedback before making an announcement.

Now that you can fault them for, yes


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Old 28th August 2021, 03:40 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why - what can't you do with do with Windows 11 that you are doing now (presumably with another version of Windows)?
Install a reliable version that will receive security updates without buying a new computer?
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Old 28th August 2021, 04:07 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I don’t see this as a bad thing. They listen to concerns and complaints from their customers, and adjust accordingly. Not a bad thing, I’m this case.
My point is that this is all tediously familiar. MS shocking announcement. Panic in the streets. MS claws back. My hero.

Yeah, the same old PR template.

For sure it's not a bad thing that they allow older machines to run Win 11. I just never doubted that this would be the case.
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Old 29th August 2021, 08:56 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Sometimes it's clear they should have sought out and considered feedback before making an announcement.

I expect that they probably did. The announcement just got them even more feedback.

A lot more.

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Old 29th August 2021, 09:00 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Sometimes it's clear they should have sought out and considered feedback before making an announcement.

I wonder if they receive too much early feedback from nerds, professional IT people, etc who are perhaps not representative of their "typical" user.
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Old 29th August 2021, 10:25 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Install a reliable version that will receive security updates without buying a new computer?
What forever?
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Old 29th August 2021, 07:13 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Install a reliable version that will receive security updates without buying a new computer?
TPM is a part of the hardware and I presume it makes tightening up security much easier. They have no control over that.

When they brought in checking before you could run a program that did something in an insecure way everyone turned it off because it was so annoying.
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Old 29th August 2021, 10:45 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I wonder if they receive too much early feedback from nerds, professional IT people, etc who are perhaps not representative of their "typical" user.
Or someone decided to ignore the feedback, until it became clear it really would be a problem for them.
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Old 30th August 2021, 04:40 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Re: What you can do with Linux that you can't do with Windows....
Quote:
Install a reliable version that will receive security updates without buying a new computer?
What forever?
(Assuming your response was serious)

I would say yes. Or, at least for a significant amount of time in the future.

And even if the brand of Linux you have installed ends up abandoned by its creators (It does happen... see CentOS), you can probably switch to another version of Linux with little difficulty (and no cost).
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Old 30th August 2021, 04:51 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Oh god, time to switch to Linux like I'm always threatening to do.

How do i Linux
I have actually started to go all-Linux at home.

I use Linux Mint as the main operating system on the laptops/desktops I have. Seems to have no problems with the hardware on any of my computers (and some of the machines are over a decade old). The only thing I still need Windows for is for the tax software I use once a year. For that, I have installed a free program called VirtualBox (from Oracle), which allows you to run VMs (which I use to run a copy of Windows 7).

Granted, my computer usage may not be typical.... I'm not a gamer, and I don't have specialized hardware (like a fancy printer/scanner/advanced video card). I largely use my computer for:
- Web surfing
- Doing a remote-desktop into my office computer at work
- video conferencing (which seems to work well using my web browser and the web versions of the conferencing software)
- Light word processing/spread sheets (using free office software that comes with Linux)
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Old 1st September 2021, 08:00 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why - what can't you do with do with Windows 11 that you are doing now (presumably with another version of Windows)?
I don't like Windows 10 either.

I'm just done with Windows.
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Old 1st September 2021, 08:29 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
I don't like Windows 10 either.

I'm just done with Windows.
That's a shame. You just don't know what you are missing;

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Old 1st September 2021, 09:19 AM   #220
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LOL!
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Old 1st September 2021, 04:12 PM   #221
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And.....,... What happens next???
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Old 2nd September 2021, 03:08 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
I don't like Windows 10 either.

I'm just done with Windows.
Just be aware of the change if you drop Windows. It will be a lot more and worse than the changes between 10 and 11.
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Old 2nd September 2021, 03:17 AM   #223
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Windows 11 is proving to be a nice refresh of Windows. The interface re-work has been done well, some of the changes I questioned - such as the icons on the taskbar being centred - I must eat humble pie - found it works well. And the new Start menu is excellent it gets rid of all the crap they've been overburdening it with since Windows 7. It is focused and gives quick access to pretty much everything I need.

The sidebar and widgets have been as I thought - never once even thought about them after looking at it for a couple of times - still think that is only useful for Windows on a touch device.

Despite it being Beta I've not had a single crash so far!

So overall I like it, but it really isn't a new version release more like a Windows 10.3 release.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 01:29 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just be aware of the change if you drop Windows. It will be a lot more and worse than the changes between 10 and 11.
Not necessarily.

There are dozens of versions of Linux, and in that mix you have many different types of windowing systems. There is probably more similarity between Windows 10 and Linux Mint (in the way the interface looks and acts) than between Windows 10 and 11. (At least from what I have heard with Windows 11.)

The big issue is software compatibility. (You'll have a difficult time finding your favorite video game, and of course Microsoft Office isn't exactly Linux-friendly.) But if you are happy with Linux-equivalents of Windows software, it won't make that much difference.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 02:31 PM   #225
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Am I the only one here who still uses Windows 7?
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Old 3rd September 2021, 02:40 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Not necessarily.

There are dozens of versions of Linux, and in that mix you have many different types of windowing systems. There is probably more similarity between Windows 10 and Linux Mint (in the way the interface looks and acts) than between Windows 10 and 11. (At least from what I have heard with Windows 11.)

The big issue is software compatibility. (You'll have a difficult time finding your favorite video game, and of course Microsoft Office isn't exactly Linux-friendly.) But if you are happy with Linux-equivalents of Windows software, it won't make that much difference.
Unfortunately most people (especially non IT people) switch back to Windows or buy Mac/MacBook after trying Linux. Linux on desktop still has too many problems for average user.

Despite that I dislike the modern versions of Windows. IMHO Windows 7 was the best OS with the best UI (followed by XP) from MS.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 06:01 PM   #227
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Win10 is more stable than Win7. That's my main criteria.
The other is drivers. Win10 changed the driver model AGAIN. If you want to be able to buy a device and use it, manufacturers tend to support the current version of Windows.

I did have a printer problem with my new printer when I printed multiple copies of the same document. Windows automatically used a new type of printer port which was not compatible with the printer. By manually changing it back to the old style of printer port it was all good again.
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Old 4th September 2021, 04:32 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Win10 is more stable than Win7. That's my main criteria.
The other is drivers. Win10 changed the driver model AGAIN. If you want to be able to buy a device and use it, manufacturers tend to support the current version of Windows.

I did have a printer problem with my new printer when I printed multiple copies of the same document. Windows automatically used a new type of printer port which was not compatible with the printer. By manually changing it back to the old style of printer port it was all good again.
I'm not sure about stability. Since the Windows 10 release there have been countless reports of PCs becoming unusable after Windows 10 updates. MS fired a lot of people from the QA department, so now the testing is often done on the regular users. The only truly stable version of Windows 10 is LTSB/LTSC.
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Old 4th September 2021, 04:38 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Not necessarily.

There are dozens of versions of Linux, and in that mix you have many different types of windowing systems. There is probably more similarity between Windows 10 and Linux Mint (in the way the interface looks and acts) than between Windows 10 and 11. (At least from what I have heard with Windows 11.)

The big issue is software compatibility. (You'll have a difficult time finding your favorite video game, and of course Microsoft Office isn't exactly Linux-friendly.) But if you are happy with Linux-equivalents of Windows software, it won't make that much difference.
Not the case at all.
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Old 4th September 2021, 05:11 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
I'm not sure about stability. Since the Windows 10 release there have been countless reports of PCs becoming unusable after Windows 10 updates. MS fired a lot of people from the QA department, so now the testing is often done on the regular users. The only truly stable version of Windows 10 is LTSB/LTSC.
For day to day use, Win10 is the most stable Windows I have ever used. My mantra with Windows used to be "Save early and save often". I used to have to rebuild every year or so. I would shut down every night and disable power saving.

Good to hear they are getting the upgrade process tested better. They can afford to spend more money in that.
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Old 4th September 2021, 02:12 PM   #231
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Will there be lootboxes on your desktop in Windows 11?
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Old 6th September 2021, 12:08 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Not necessarily.

There are dozens of versions of Linux, and in that mix you have many different types of windowing systems. There is probably more similarity between Windows 10 and Linux Mint (in the way the interface looks and acts) than between Windows 10 and 11. (At least from what I have heard with Windows 11.)

The big issue is software compatibility. (You'll have a difficult time finding your favorite video game, and of course Microsoft Office isn't exactly Linux-friendly.) But if you are happy with Linux-equivalents of Windows software, it won't make that much difference.
As long as you are comfortable on the command line. I tried using a Linux desktop on my primary home computer for a while a couple of years ago, and it worked perfectly - right up until the moment that it didn't. When it died I had absolutely no idea how to get it working again. I've worked in IT Support for 20 years, but I was completely and utterly lost. That computer is still in one of my cupboards, unfixed.

If Windows breaks, I know how to fix it, even if I have to go back to reformatting my drive. Linux is a mysterious black box that I do not trust.
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Old 7th September 2021, 01:40 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Quote:
Not necessarily.

There are dozens of versions of Linux, and in that mix you have many different types of windowing systems. There is probably more similarity between Windows 10 and Linux Mint (in the way the interface looks and acts) than between Windows 10 and 11. (At least from what I have heard with Windows 11.)

The big issue is software compatibility.
As long as you are comfortable on the command line.
I am comfortable on the command line. But then, I also use the command line when I do maintenance on Windows.

But Linux also has plenty of tools to maintain the system through the GUI. I had no problem setting up my network (including a VPN), installing Google Chrome, etc. without the command line.
Quote:
I tried using a Linux desktop on my primary home computer for a while a couple of years ago, and it worked perfectly - right up until the moment that it didn't. When it died I had absolutely no idea how to get it working again. I've worked in IT Support for 20 years, but I was completely and utterly lost. That computer is still in one of my cupboards, unfixed.
The thing is, if you are trying to administer a Linux system, it can be different than Windows (e.g. you have to know what a 'package' is, instead of what an 'msi file' is, and the way it handles admin users is different, which makes it more secure but more effort to set up), but its not necessarily any HARDER. Its just a case of what you learned first.

And Windows isn't necessarily perfect either. My Win7 computer at work used to "flake out" once a day (becoming CPU and disk bound for a half hour, while it supposedly accessed some edb file). Did find a supposed microsoft patch that was supposed to fix the problem... but it didn't. Asked the system administrator here (who, like you, has over a decade of experience) and he had no idea what was going on. We've also had problems with running Win10 on virtual machines (where the computer also becomes CPU bound and stops responding to remote desktop connections), again with no indication about what the problem is.

Of course, for many/most general users, they won't be making any fixes anyways. (My parents, both in their 80s, aren't about to start installing any system updates, regardless of how "user friendly" Windows is, and any sort of maintenance usually has to wait until I visit them.)
Quote:
If Windows breaks, I know how to fix it, even if I have to go back to reformatting my drive. Linux is a mysterious black box that I do not trust.
Umm... wait a second.... reformatting your drive is "fixing it"? Not exactly a great testimonial to how easy it is to fix Windows, if your argument is "You can just reformat".

You know you can just as easily reformat/reinstall linux too, right?
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Old 7th September 2021, 02:03 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Quote:
Not necessarily.

There are dozens of versions of Linux, and in that mix you have many different types of windowing systems. There is probably more similarity between Windows 10 and Linux Mint (in the way the interface looks and acts) than between Windows 10 and 11. (At least from what I have heard with Windows 11.)
Not the case at all.
I am looking at both a Linux Mint and a Windows 10 desktop right now...

Just like Windows 7/Windows 10, Mint has the 'start' menu on the left side. Click it and you get a pop-up list of menu items with things you can select. There are various items along the tax bar on the bottom of the screen. On the right hand side you have the 'system tray'. Desktop is clean, with only certain default system icons, and the icons that I set up myself.

From what I have seen with Win11 screenshots, they have centralized the task bar, the 'menu' doesn't give the same list of subdirectory names, but instead gives a sort of pop-up list of 'pinned' icons, along with an 'all apps' button (if the list of available programs is too big) and a 'recommended' section. All that looks quite a bit different than Win10. I am sure you can get used to it (and there may even be ways to adjust the interface to make it more Win10 like), but there will still be a learning curve involved.

Now, admittedly I haven't seen what things like the control panel look like in Win11. But, since Microsoft tends to make changes to those type of tools with every release, I suspect that Microsoft will continue to make changes there too (as they have with other Windows releases).
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Old 7th September 2021, 07:16 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Umm... wait a second.... reformatting your drive is "fixing it"? Not exactly a great testimonial to how easy it is to fix Windows, if your argument is "You can just reformat".
No, of course not. I didn't suggest that it was my first option - far from it. But if it does come to that, I am comfortable with my knowledge of how to do it.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You know you can just as easily reformat/reinstall linux too, right?
Yes, obviously. I'm just much more confident doing it with Windows. By which I actually mean I have done it before, which I cannot say for Linux.
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Old 7th September 2021, 08:02 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Quote:
Umm... wait a second.... reformatting your drive is "fixing it"? Not exactly a great testimonial to how easy it is to fix Windows, if your argument is "You can just reformat".
No, of course not. I didn't suggest that it was my first option - far from it. But if it does come to that, I am comfortable with my knowledge of how to do it.
But your complaint earlier was "I have a linux machine that broke and can't fix it". If you are similarly reformatting Windows when you get stuck, then it seems unfair to single out Linux as some sort of "unfixable mystery".
Quote:
Yes, obviously. I'm just much more confident doing it with Windows. By which I actually mean I have done it before, which I cannot say for Linux.
Which doesn't really say whether Linux is actually difficult (or, in this case MORE difficult) to reinstall than Windows.

In reality, its pretty simple. About the same difficulty as setting up Windows, last time I tried.... put the install CD/DVD in the drive (or plug the USB drive in), reboot, and when it asks if you want to reinstall, say 'yes'. You do have to answer basic questions (like keyboard type, timezone, a default user name, etc.), but last time I installed windows I had to answer those questions as well. No need for arcane command line commands.

At some point, an unwillingness to actually deal with Linux becomes less about how easy/hard it is to use, and more about being stubborn.

Heck, one thing that I think works better with Linux installs than Windows installs... last time I did a windows install, by default it demanded that I have a microsoft mail account (and I had to hunt for a way to do an install without that particular "feature".)

I wonder if Windows 11 is going to have the same sort of insistence in having a mail account.
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Old 7th September 2021, 08:07 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
At some point, an unwillingness to actually deal with Linux becomes less about how easy/hard it is to use, and more about being stubborn.
It's not about whether it's hard or easy. It's about familiarity, and comfort within the environment. Linux is a foreign country to me, and I don't have a great deal of time or inclination to learn its language and customs when I already know my way around Windows extremely well.

This is why it's so annoying when I ask a question about some problem with Windows that I can't fix, and some wag chimes in and says "Use Linux". No. I don't want to use Linux, I want to fix this problem with Windows. Go away or I will replace you with a very small .bat file.
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Old 7th September 2021, 08:42 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
Unfortunately most people (especially non IT people) switch back to Windows or buy Mac/MacBook after trying Linux.
Do you have any evidence that "most people" end up switching back to Windows after trying Linux? Got any context for that? (Were these people who actually made concerted efforts to use Linux, or just threw Linux on some old computer, saw "that works", but then stopped right there?)
Quote:
Linux on desktop still has too many problems for average user.
A big, long, poorly formatted article. It has a few things that are correct, a few things that are misleading, and a few things that are wrong.

And it should be noted that the article itself included the following statement:

I want to make one thing crystal clear - Windows, in some regards, is even worse than Linux and it has its own share of critical problems.

So even the author isn't quite as anti-Linux as you might think.
Quote:
Despite that I dislike the modern versions of Windows. IMHO Windows 7 was the best OS with the best UI (followed by XP) from MS.
I had no problem with Win7. (Much prefer it to the interface that was part of Win8, or certain versions of Win Server.) But, Microsoft dropped support for that years ago.
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Old 7th September 2021, 08:49 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Quote:
At some point, an unwillingness to actually deal with Linux becomes less about how easy/hard it is to use, and more about being stubborn.
It's not about whether it's hard or easy. It's about familiarity, and comfort within the environment. Linux is a foreign country to me, and I don't have a great deal of time or inclination to learn its language and customs when I already know my way around Windows extremely well.

This is why it's so annoying when I ask a question about some problem with Windows that I can't fix, and some wag chimes in and says "Use Linux". No. I don't want to use Linux, I want to fix this problem with Windows. Go away or I will replace you with a very small .bat file.
Which is of course different from your earlier statements.

Early on, you made certain accusations about the difficulty in using Linux. "Need the command line". "Black box". etc. But your argument actually seems to be "I just don't have the interest". Nothing particularly wrong with not having an interest in it, just don't pass off your lack of interest as any sort of fault on the part of Linux.
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Old 7th September 2021, 09:22 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Which is of course different from your earlier statements.
No it isn't.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Early on, you made certain accusations about the difficulty in using Linux.
No I didn't. And I've reviewed the entire thread to make sure.

The first time I even referred to Linux was in response to your statement that as long as you are happy with Linux equivalents to Windows software there wouldn't be much of a difference. I replied "as long as you are comfortable on the command line". I said absolutely nothing about whether the command line was difficult, nor did I mention the black box aspect. I said that I was not familiar with Linux, and I subsequently added that I would find very little value in expending the time and effort it would take to become familiar with it. I've got other things to do. You could conceivably interpret that as a simple lack of interest, I guess, but that was not my intention.
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