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Tags death penalty , death penalty issues , donald trump , executions , Trump controversies

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Old 15th December 2020, 12:34 PM   #81
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I think the string of executions is great. I think Bernard should've been put to death many, many years ago.
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Old 15th December 2020, 03:35 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Sorry - that’s just so ****** up it’s barely fathomable for me, and probably the most disgusting thing I’ve ever had to contemplate.

I mean our politicians treat the general public with utter disdain, but that is just beyond sociopathic.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I think the string of executions is great. I think Bernard should've been put to death many, many years ago.
OK.
I understand now.
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Old 15th December 2020, 03:53 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
OK.
I understand now.
Yep. It seriously plays well with his base.
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Old 15th December 2020, 04:22 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
In the real world, I would have thought he would.

I realise that this is still Trumerica, but surely a president needs to justify such actions?
A normal one would because it's the proper and expected thing to do, but Trump isn't normal.
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Old 15th December 2020, 04:30 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Sorry - that’s just so ****** up it’s barely fathomable for me, and probably the most disgusting thing I’ve ever had to contemplate.

I mean our politicians treat the general public with utter disdain, but that is just beyond sociopathic.
Trump is a sociopath. His own niece, a clinical psychologist, has said so.
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Old 16th December 2020, 01:18 AM   #86
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Trump is breaking records for all the wrong reasons.

Quote:
Donald Trump has added a morbid new distinction to his presidency – for the first time in US history, the federal government has in one year executed more American civilians than all the states combined.

<snip>

States carried out seven executions to the federal government’s 10. Despite the rash of federal killings, that still amounted to the fewest executions in the US since 1991.

Against that downward path, the actions of the Trump administration stand out as a grotesque aberration.

<snip>

Since Trump lost the election on 3 November, the federal government has put to death three prisoners: Orlando Hall, Brandon Bernard and Alfred Bourgeois. The last time a lame-duck president presided over an execution was in 1889, when the Grover Cleveland administration killed a Choctaw Indian named Richard Smith.

All three Trump lame-duck executions involved black men. As the DPIC review points out, racial disparities remain prominent in the roll call of the dead, as they have for decades, with almost half of those executed being people of color.

The review exposes other systemic problems in the Trump administration’s choice of prisoners to kill. Lezmond Hill, executed in August, was the only Native American prisoner on federal death row. His execution ignored tribal sovereignty over the case and the objections of the Navajo Nation which is opposed to the death penalty.

The subjects of the federal rush to the death chamber included two prisoners whose offenses were committed when they were teenagers. Christopher Vialva was 19 and Bernard 18: they were the first teenage offenders sent to their deaths by the US government in almost 70 years.

<snip>

Texas, traditionally the death penalty capital of America, carried out three executions this year, down from nine in 2019. The most recent was on 8 July. Billy Joe Wardlow was 18 in 1993 when he committed robbery and murder.

“The fact that state legislators, juvenile justice advocates, neuroscience experts and two jurors from Wardlow’s trial had called for a reprieve based on what we know now about adolescent brain development make the circumstances of his arbitrary execution even more appalling,” said Kristin Houlé Cuellar, TCADP executive director.
GUARDIAN

Does the USA really have no means of preventing this type of psychopathic behaviour by its outgoing presidents?
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Old 16th December 2020, 01:23 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I think the string of executions is great. I think Bernard should've been put to death many, many years ago.
Perhaps focus on why Trump is suddenly putting to death these long-term prisoners now?
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Old 16th December 2020, 09:50 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps focus on why Trump is suddenly putting to death these long-term prisoners now?
Somehow I doubt trumpistas care about little details like that.
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Old 17th December 2020, 02:20 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps focus on why Trump is suddenly putting to death these long-term prisoners now?
Because the window of opportunity to do so is closing? Is that complicated?

I suspect he's doing it now because he doesn't have too much longer, he feels it's right for it to happen, and doing it last minute means he minimized the amount of time where he'd have to face criticism for it that could have still impacted his presidency.
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Old 17th December 2020, 02:45 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Which is my main objection to the death penalty as a system- there have been 167 exonerations of prisoners on death row in the United States since 1973 (Wikipedia). It's one thing to say that someone who has killed and not been executed for it could go on to kill "again and again and again," without showing any evidence that it has actually happened; but to use that argument when evidence does show that mistakes in the system can lead to innocent people being killed again and again is just specious. Surely it would be simple enough to make a life sentence an actual sentence for life, no possibility of release without exoneration, which would satisfy the "again and again" objection, and have the benefit of making possible exoneration meaningfully possible.

And remember, these successful and timely exonerations are only the ones we know about. The Innocence Project doesn't really have the time or resources to devote to exonerating dead people; and it's for sure that the system that sent these people to death row to begin with isn't set up for, or has any interest in, exonerating them, dead or alive. The US justice system is an adversarial one, two sides competing for a win; I would say for most cases, that's sufficient- maybe not perfect justice, but usually close enough. But for cases where the penalty for a loss is irreversible, maybe there should be a little more care taken in the name of actual justice than just to make it a contest. (And, of course, when the impetus for the final act is nothing but a loser like Trump trying to score political points, to call that "justice" would be a travesty.)
Did you even try to find out if your assertion had any validity at all or do you just pray that you are right or that nobody will notice your (insert appropriate word here)?
A quick google search will give you lots and lots of examples of released murderers who killed again.

Here's one:
"One of the eerie similarities in all of the cases on this list of inmates who murdered when they were released is how quickly each ex-con murdered someone. Some waited days, some a few months, but the longest hold out in all of these stories is only a couple of years."
https://www.ranker.com/list/paroled-.../jacob-shelton
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Old 17th December 2020, 02:52 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Because the window of opportunity to do so is closing? Is that complicated?

I suspect he's doing it now because he doesn't have too much longer, he feels it's right for it to happen, and doing it last minute means he minimized the amount of time where he'd have to face criticism for it that could have still impacted his presidency.
I'm not a fan of Trump but I don't understand the idea that there is some sort of "best before date" that says: You are the president and have all the powers of the president but because there are X number of days/weeks/months/ before you are no longer president - you should not exercise the powers that the electorate elected you to exercise.
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"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 17th December 2020, 03:43 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Because the window of opportunity to do so is closing? Is that complicated?

I suspect he's doing it now because he doesn't have too much longer, he feels it's right for it to happen, and doing it last minute means he minimized the amount of time where he'd have to face criticism for it that could have still impacted his presidency.
But why do it at all?
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Old 17th December 2020, 05:44 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
I'm not a fan of Trump but I don't understand the idea that there is some sort of "best before date" that says: You are the president and have all the powers of the president but because there are X number of days/weeks/months/ before you are no longer president - you should not exercise the powers that the electorate elected you to exercise.
Just because you have a particular power, it doesn't mean it is right to use it.

Would you apply the same idea to him just detonating a nuke, because, hey the electorate gave me the power to do it?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 17th December 2020, 06:14 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Because the window of opportunity to do so is closing? Is that complicated?
I was ready to do a whole response where I jokingly characterized your argument as "Because then there would be some living black people who could have been killed and that is totally unacceptable!"

But then I remember who I was talking to and who we're talking about so that's probably just an accurate description of the thought processes involved.
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Old 17th December 2020, 06:51 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Which is my main objection to the death penalty as a system- there have been 167 exonerations of prisoners on death row in the United States since 1973 (Wikipedia). It's one thing to say that someone who has killed and not been executed for it could go on to kill "again and again and again," without showing any evidence that it has actually happened; but to use that argument when evidence does show that mistakes in the system can lead to innocent people being killed again and again is just specious. Surely it would be simple enough to make a life sentence an actual sentence for life, no possibility of release without exoneration, which would satisfy the "again and again" objection, and have the benefit of making possible exoneration meaningfully possible.

And remember, these successful and timely exonerations are only the ones we know about. The Innocence Project doesn't really have the time or resources to devote to exonerating dead people; and it's for sure that the system that sent these people to death row to begin with isn't set up for, or has any interest in, exonerating them, dead or alive. The US justice system is an adversarial one, two sides competing for a win; I would say for most cases, that's sufficient- maybe not perfect justice, but usually close enough. But for cases where the penalty for a loss is irreversible, maybe there should be a little more care taken in the name of actual justice than just to make it a contest. (And, of course, when the impetus for the final act is nothing but a loser like Trump trying to score political points, to call that "justice" would be a travesty.)
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Did you even try to find out if your assertion had any validity at all or do you just pray that you are right or that nobody will notice your (insert appropriate word here)?
A quick google search will give you lots and lots of examples of released murderers who killed again.

Here's one:
"One of the eerie similarities in all of the cases on this list of inmates who murdered when they were released is how quickly each ex-con murdered someone. Some waited days, some a few months, but the longest hold out in all of these stories is only a couple of years."
https://www.ranker.com/list/paroled-.../jacob-shelton
(Shrug) Ok, evidence accepted. Now would you care to address the whole point I was getting at, in the part I've bolded, but which you apparently decided to ignore in favor of going on your (insert appropriate word here) to score some meaningless internet points? I mean, your evidence shows that some people who are released from death row go on to kill again; my very next sentence said "don't release them unless exonerated." What would be your preferred solution? Just, what- kill them all and let god sort them out?
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Old 26th December 2020, 01:29 PM   #96
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So the next scheduled execution has been delayed by a judge, meaning it is likely it won't take place before Trump's departure now.

Quote:
A judge has further delayed the planned execution of the only woman on federal death row in the US.

In a ruling that will potentially leave the Trump administration with no choice but to postpone the execution beyond its term in office, a federal judge found that an attempt to reschedule it for January was unlawful.

Lisa Montgomery, 52, was convicted of killing 23-year-old Bobbie Jo Stinnett in the north-west Missouri town of Skidmore in December 2004.
GUARDIAN

The prisoner's attorney gave the judge as their reason for delay as corona virus, which was accepted.
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Old 26th December 2020, 08:00 PM   #97
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Trump must be so disappointed he can't put a woman's execution notch on his belt.
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Old 27th December 2020, 03:44 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump must be so disappointed he can't put a woman's execution notch on his belt.
At least she's not African-American, that would really disappoint him.
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Old 31st December 2020, 02:59 PM   #99
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Three more pardons: border agents who committed a murder and then covered it up

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...to-cover-it-up
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Old 31st December 2020, 03:08 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
Three more pardons: border agents who committed a murder and then covered it up

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...to-cover-it-up


My god, the whole Republican Party has gone Full Burns.

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Smithers had thwarted my earlier attempt to take candy from a baby, but with him out of the picture, I was free to wallow in my own crapulence.

Quote:
The Texas Tribune reports that Brugman had in his corner both of Texas’ U.S. senators, John Cornyn and Ted Cruz. Also supporting him was the state’s notoriously anti-immigrant lieutenant governor, Dan Patrick. Think Immigration reports that supporting Ramos and Compean was former Republican Rep. Duncan Hunter, himself “recently convicted of stealing campaign funds.”
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Old 1st January 2021, 04:59 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Just because you have a particular power, it doesn't mean it is right to use it.

Would you apply the same idea to him just detonating a nuke, because, hey the electorate gave me the power to do it?
Seriously???
You think that comment has any relevance in a thread about not carrying out legal executions because there are only X number of days before he is no longer president?
There were legal federal executions approved by the federal governments under all the presidents before Obama - GOP and Democrat. We are not talking about acts of lunacy that will end the world.

It is obvious that the opponents of the death penalty are looking for any reason to oppose an execution taking place.
Why not be honest about it and use an honest argument/statement about stopping all executions rather than making up some sort of arbitrary and silly argument about "best before" dates of terms of office?
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Old 1st January 2021, 05:09 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
(Shrug) Ok, evidence accepted. Now would you care to address the whole point I was getting at, in the part I've bolded, but which you apparently decided to ignore in favor of going on your (insert appropriate word here) to score some meaningless internet points? I mean, your evidence shows that some people who are released from death row go on to kill again; my very next sentence said "don't release them unless exonerated." What would be your preferred solution? Just, what- kill them all and let god sort them out?

Why do I have to make any statement about what to do with convicted killers? That was not the reason for my post.
This is a sceptics board. You made a completely ignorant and baseless assertion pretending it was fact and I corrected you.
Thank you for admitting you were not even trying to be factual and that the facts mean nothing to you.
I have no interest in further conversation with someone who makes it obvious they care so little about facts.
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"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

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Old 1st January 2021, 05:22 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
Three more pardons: border agents who committed a murder and then covered it up

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...to-cover-it-up
Murder?
You got a cite for that?
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Old 1st January 2021, 05:55 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
I'm not a fan of Trump...
Says every absolute fan of Trump.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
It is obvious that the opponents of the death penalty are looking for any reason to oppose an execution taking place.
Yeah it as if we just don't want the government killing people. Crazy I know.
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Old 1st January 2021, 06:15 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Why do I have to make any statement about what to do with convicted killers? That was not the reason for my post.
This is a sceptics board. You made a completely ignorant and baseless assertion pretending it was fact and I corrected you.
Thank you for admitting you were not even trying to be factual and that the facts mean nothing to you.
I have no interest in further conversation with someone who makes it obvious they care so little about facts.
(Chuckle) Well, alrighty then...
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Old 1st January 2021, 08:46 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
rather than making up some sort of arbitrary and silly argument about "best before" dates of terms of office?
Pretty rich coming from "Obama shouldn't pick supreme court judge that close to end of his term, but somehow it does not count for Trump" republicans.

No worries, we all are used to rethugs being hypocritical degenerates.
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Old 1st January 2021, 03:38 PM   #107
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Yay! Victory!

USA! USA! USA!

The disgusting murderer, Lisa Montgomery, who killed a pretty white chick by cutting a baby out of her womb, is due to be executed on 12 January.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/us-...3IUCBTEVBXZXY/

Trump will have a wet dream about this one - a truly evil woman being put to death. No mental illness here, no sirree.
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Old 1st January 2021, 04:56 PM   #108
wasapi
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yay! Victory!

USA! USA! USA!

The disgusting murderer, Lisa Montgomery, who killed a pretty white chick by cutting a baby out of her womb, is due to be executed on 12 January.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/us-...3IUCBTEVBXZXY/

Trump will have a wet dream about this one - a truly evil woman being put to death. No mental illness here, no sirree.
That's interesting. I hadn't considered the relevance of it being Lisa Montgomery. Yes, she is a truly evil female. Now it is up to Trump if she lives or dies? I haven't followed this, but does Trump make comments or statements about those in the kill-line?

Thanks.
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Old 1st January 2021, 05:12 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Says every absolute fan of Trump.



Yeah it as if we just don't want the government killing people. Crazy I know.
Do you have anything intelligent to say or are you just going to keep on trying to paint me as a racist Trump Supporter.
You seem to be more interested in doing personal attacks that are totally false and obviously based on your imagination rather than presenting intelligent discussions.
If you have a cite that proves I am a Trump supporter - post it.
If you have a post that proves I am a racist - post
If you have a cite that proves I am pro death penalty post it.


BTW - governments do not kill people. Individuals tasked with various jobs within governments kill people. Take the US (please!). The US sends it's simple minded killers who actually volunteer to join their military because they want to kill someone in another country.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 1st January 2021 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 1st January 2021, 05:17 PM   #110
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Pretty rich coming from "Obama shouldn't pick supreme court judge that close to end of his term, but somehow it does not count for Trump" republicans.

No worries, we all are used to rethugs being hypocritical degenerates.
Are you serious? Please cite where I have ever stated such nonsense!
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Old 1st January 2021, 06:34 PM   #111
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Yeah, on the whole, I am anti-death penalty, and I'm sorry if she's mentally ill, but this is one of the worst murders I have ever heard of. The victim was conscious and trying to fight while Montgomery ripped her open. I can't imagine the horror. I simultaneously believe the death penalty is barbaric AND that if anyone deserves it, she does. I don't think the death penalty is necessary or very useful and using executions to score political points is messed up IMO. I thought the last guy was borderline. I wonder what Biden will do about this case. Ethically, is he bound to commute her sentence?
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Old 1st January 2021, 06:51 PM   #112
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post

BTW - governments do not kill people.
Oh yes they do. That seems like a heap of denialism to me. Collective entities exist. You can't philosophize them away.
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Old 1st January 2021, 07:50 PM   #113
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Yes, she is a truly evil female.
I'm curious as to whether you read the story of her upbringing I linked to?

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I simultaneously believe the death penalty is barbaric AND that if anyone deserves it, she does.
Very good example of doublethink in action.

Where do you draw the line on barbarism that "deserves" the death penalty?

Obviously people like Eddie Gallagher don't count, and the filth who opened up on a group of innocent people with a half-inch cannon in Iraq in 2002, killing 12 people were doing their job, so I'd appreciate knowing what counts as worth executing a human being.

Nice to see people defending something that civilised countries threw out decades ago. And no small irony in the people who created the monster remaining unpunished as Lisa gets strapped to the gurney.

Pity it's not a firing squad.
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Old 1st January 2021, 09:28 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm curious as to whether you read the story of her upbringing I linked to?



Very good example of doublethink in action.

Where do you draw the line on barbarism that "deserves" the death penalty?

Obviously people like Eddie Gallagher don't count, and the filth who opened up on a group of innocent people with a half-inch cannon in Iraq in 2002, killing 12 people were doing their job, so I'd appreciate knowing what counts as worth executing a human being.

Nice to see people defending something that civilised countries threw out decades ago. And no small irony in the people who created the monster remaining unpunished as Lisa gets strapped to the gurney.

Pity it's not a firing squad.
I'd be happy dispensing with executions altogether. We have a system and a process for imposing the death penalty. I'm sure other people have done horrible things that they weren't executed for and I'm sure Eddie Gallagher is a complete *******. We had suspended executions nationwide in the '60s and early '70s, then Gary Gilmore came along and called everybody's bluff. Federally, Timothy McVeigh had been the last case for 20 years. GWB seemed to be happy to get out of the execution business. The respites were all some kind of gentlemen's agreement that Trump is so good at breaking. I don't like that the death penalty is still on the books. Cutting a baby out of a mother's belly while she is conscious and observing this? That's one of the cruelest things I've ever heard of. I don't care about her enough to feel sorry for her. I just don't.

If we want it off the books we should take it off the books, not depend on some unspoken honor system. Maybe I'll change my mind about this woman. Maybe I won't.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 02:13 AM   #115
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Update on the Montgomery scheduled execution. It is going ahead on 12 Jan 2021.

Quote:
A US appeals court has lifted a stay of execution on the only woman awaiting a federal death penalty.

Lisa Montgomery strangled a pregnant woman in Missouri before cutting out and kidnapping the baby in 2004.

If the execution goes ahead, she will be the first female federal inmate to be put to death in almost 70 years.

Montgomery's execution date was originally set for last month but a stay was put in place after her attorneys contracted Covid-19.

It was then rescheduled for 12 January by the Justice Department. But Montgomery's lawyers argued that the date could not be set while a stay was in place.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55513158
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Old 2nd January 2021, 10:03 AM   #116
wasapi
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm curious as to whether you read the story of her upbringing I linked to?
The Atheist, I just now had a chance to read the link. What she went through growing up was horrific. The thing is, I have known people who had similar backgrounds. I had a taste myself being raised by a mentally ill mother. She sometimes chased me with a butcher knife, telling me she was going to some day "murder" me, and "get away with it".

I guess I am trying to point out is that many others have been abused - severely abused, physical and mental abuse, while growing up and did not become murderers or criminals. That Lisa Montgomery did, leaves me to believe she is evil.

Though I am not pro-death penalty, what crime Montgomery committed was so horrific, so over-the-top that I am void of sympathy for her.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 10:19 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I guess I am trying to point out is that many others have been abused - severely abused, physical and mental abuse, while growing up and did not become murderers or criminals.
Which merely assumes all lives, minds and impacts are the same.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:33 PM   #118
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Any country that holds a 'death penalty' option open for the judiciary should also hold a raffle. Winner presses the button. See how quick the armchair Pierrepoints change their position...
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:30 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Any country that holds a 'death penalty' option open for the judiciary should also hold a raffle. Winner presses the button. See how quick the armchair Pierrepoints change their position...
I'm surprised Texas doesn't hold Death Penalty BINGO games in senior citizen residential care facilities. Give those old people a real prize to shoot for. Literally.
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Old 5th January 2021, 01:41 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Any country that holds a 'death penalty' option open for the judiciary should also hold a raffle. Winner presses the button. See how quick the armchair Pierrepoints change their position...
Going by the joy many people seem to get from witnessing judicial murders in USA, I'm not sure you're right.
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