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Old 8th January 2021, 10:16 AM   #41
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
We, you and I, all of us together, are going to march up Pennsylvania Avenue to the capitol. That's right, I'm joining you. All of us will hold hands. I will put my arms around whoever's closest. You. Me. Marching. I'll pose for selfies. I'll lead you in song. I'll sign tits with my Sharpie until my hand cramps up. Okay? Ready? On your mark, get set, let's go!
I don't think those were his precise words, although they would have been much more interesting. I did look up his actual words, and I think in doing so, I figured out what they might have been thinking. (If "thinking" could be used in this situation.)
Originally Posted by Trump
So we are going to--we are going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we are going to the Capitol, and we are going to try and give--the Democrats are hopeless, they are never voting for anything, not even one vote but we are going to try--give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don't need any of our help, we're try--going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

I think most of the people had it in their head that Mike Pence and/or the Senate could reject the votes. They were going to prop up the weak Republicans and give them the courage to do the right thing and reject the electoral votes.

Yes, that's crazy. That's not the way it works, but that's the point of the "post fact world" that Joe referred to. Trump could tell them that Pence could do it. Trump could tell them that the Senate Republicans could stand strong and prevent the "steal". Trump may have even believed it. He's not living in reality, himself.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:27 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
A lot of rightwing websites are using exactly this defense. I would guess that one thing neither Trump nor his supporters expected is any need to defend them for doing what they thought needed to be done by denying them the credit they expected for doing it.
Spineless cowards will never own up to their actions. Unless public reaction ended up to be a positive one... then, of course, they would immediately jump up on their soapboxes and proudly take full credit. Ooo rah.

Their Jenny-Craig-weightloss-program-flunky, holier-than-jeebus, orange-is-the-new-black, KFC-inhaling messiah is a spineless coward. Ergo, so too are his underling minions.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:33 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'm beginning to think that ex-member Interesting Ian might have been right about the existence of P-Zombies, incapable of conscious thought, only capable of reaction to input.

But how many times does the input need to be punched in?
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:42 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think those were his precise words, although they would have been much more interesting. I did look up his actual words, and I think in doing so, I figured out what they might have been thinking. (If "thinking" could be used in this situation.)



I think most of the people had it in their head that Mike Pence and/or the Senate could reject the votes. They were going to prop up the weak Republicans and give them the courage to do the right thing and reject the electoral votes.

Yes, that's crazy. That's not the way it works, but that's the point of the "post fact world" that Joe referred to. Trump could tell them that Pence could do it. Trump could tell them that the Senate Republicans could stand strong and prevent the "steal". Trump may have even believed it. He's not living in reality, himself.
That's an interesting comparison; what Trump actually said versus what people think they heard. His inability to speak in sentences is a talent that might very well save him from prosecution for incitement. The way he speaks is so incoherent you can't analyse it to precisely nail down any actionable quotation.
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:16 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That's an interesting comparison; what Trump actually said versus what people think they heard. His inability to speak in sentences is a talent that might very well save him from prosecution for incitement. The way he speaks is so incoherent you can't analyse it to precisely nail down any actionable quotation.

Rorschach Squawk.


What it means tells you more about you than what was said.
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:25 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
A lot of rightwing websites are using exactly this defense. I would guess that one thing neither Trump nor his supporters expected is any need to defend them for doing what they thought needed to be done by denying them the credit they expected for doing it.
That several of the people caught on film were well known MAGA "leaders' seems ignoted by the fools pushing this theory.
That, and Antifa is not any where near capalbe of pullin goff something like this.
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:26 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That's an interesting comparison; what Trump actually said versus what people think they heard. His inability to speak in sentences is a talent that might very well save him from prosecution for incitement. The way he speaks is so incoherent you can't analyse it to precisely nail down any actionable quotation.
What a defense- "Your honor, our client, a man who has been President for the last four years, is such an incoherent nincompoop that nothing he says can ever reasonably be held to be what anybody else may have understood him to mean."
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:31 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That, and Antifa is not any where near capalbe of pullin goff something like this.
Beware of following the reversal of the burden of proof. Nobody should need to argue that Antifa couldn't have done this; we know Trump’s supporters did it, and those claiming otherwise need to provide evidence.

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Old 8th January 2021, 11:36 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Those were other cops, who were just a bit too late to the party to be of much use.
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I believe, those were Capitol Police security with long guns. Some kind of SWAT style unit. But I guess they could've been terrorists in uniform.
I hadn't seen who was holding the guns, only that someone in the pic had them, and I assumed (I know) they were with the rest of her little surprise party.
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:40 AM   #50
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I think the bulk of the crowd thought that a "friendly" mass outside would inspire the congresscritters inside to boldly vote with what they "knew in their hearts was true", that the election had been stolen.

Add to that some people that wanted to do some more direct intimidating by pressing against the barricades, expecting a stalemate that would make the people inside a little worried about what would happen if they didn't vote right.

Add to that some people that very much wanted to breach the barricades to "get them sumbitches". I think their plan was to violently confront all the evil politicians, possibly a hostage standoff after only a few necessary executions, and then the President declares martial law and sends the troops in to stop the obviously traitorous capitol guards defending the steal, and then someone starts a slow clap, and everyone joins in, and the troops lead away all the surviving swamp creatures and guards in shackles, Pence declares Trump the obvious legitimate winner, and everyone gets free ice cream and beers while Darryl Worley composes a new song on the spot.
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:49 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That several of the people caught on film were well known MAGA "leaders' seems ignoted by the fools pushing this theory.
That, and Antifa is not any where near capalbe of pullin goff something like this.
Well, according to Kevin Sorbo-
Quote:
To all the people who actually believe that it was Trump supporters who started the riot today:
Where was antifa and BLM to counter? They show up to every single event, so why not this one?
-the fact that Antifa/BLM were visibly present at other events is why you should believe they were invisibly present for this one- you know they must have been there because they weren't. That's a knot in logic that, by design, cannot be unknotted.
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:24 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That's an interesting comparison; what Trump actually said versus what people think they heard. His inability to speak in sentences is a talent that might very well save him from prosecution for incitement. The way he speaks is so incoherent you can't analyse it to precisely nail down any actionable quotation.
I think his way of speaking is that of a cleverly learned con-man. Always have plausible deniability. It's "my generals of told me", "some one said", "I saw it on social media', "people are saying". No one ever gets an answer if you ask him, "Well, what do think about this". He just does not answer, or repeats some ****, or changes the topic by shouting loudly over the questioner. All exemplified in his telephone call to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger of Georgia.
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Well, according to Kevin Sorbo-

-the fact that Antifa/BLM were visibly present at other events is why you should believe they were invisibly present for this one- you know they must have been there because they weren't. That's a knot in logic that, by design, cannot be unknotted.
Maybe, just maybe, people listened to the Mayor of Washington and stayed home as she asked them to?
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:34 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Trump just whores for attention. And that's one thing he's good at.
Yep and I think that was exactly what he did here. I don't believe he actually thought that mob where actually going to overturn the election. He just gets off on being able to get these people to do what he wants.
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:37 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Maybe, just maybe, people listened to the Mayor of Washington and stayed home as she asked them to?
Or maybe they were just following Napoleon's advice about don't interfere when your enemy is destroying himself.
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:39 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Yep and I think that was exactly what he did here. I don't believe he actually thought that mob where actually going to overturn the election. He just gets off on being able to get these people to do what he wants.
I don't even think he expected them to acutally storm the Capitol. He has some media savvy
and must have known that would be bad optics.
This is NOT a defense of the Orange Turd .
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:52 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Maybe, just maybe, people listened to the Mayor of Washington and stayed home as she asked them to?
And other people (not naming any names) listened to another guy (not naming any names, but rhymes with "Trump") (USA Today) and came like he asked them to?

Nah- that would make...sense; it actually adds up instead of cancelling itself out.
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Old 8th January 2021, 01:16 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I hadn't seen who was holding the guns, only that someone in the pic had them, and I assumed (I know) they were with the rest of her little surprise party.
Here is the video, well one of them, theres more than one:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Pretty clearly its police with long guns.
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Old 8th January 2021, 01:34 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post

Add to that some people that very much wanted to breach the barricades
Add to that the several patriotic Americans who were there to try and install rootkits on secure PCs on behalf of foreign intelligence agencies.
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Old 8th January 2021, 05:05 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Here is the video, well one of them, theres more than one:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Pretty clearly its police with long guns.
That's not the video I had seen, had I, there'd be no mistake. When you watch that video, once it's focused on the doorway, you'll see a guy on the far left in dark clothes, he's taking video too. That's the video perspective I saw, and I assume was taken by him, so all I saw was the ends of the guns. I had seen a video of the guy in blue in the middle, minutes afterward, being interviewed outside, that was the first word on the woman being shot that I posted elsewhere here that day.
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Old 8th January 2021, 05:47 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Here is the video, well one of them, theres more than one:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Pretty clearly its police with long guns.
If that the video I think it is...youtube wont let me see it becase of age restrictions...the cops with long guns are a DC Swat Team armed with shotguns coming in, probably attracted by the gunshot.
What is amusing is when they show up the brave, heroic Trump revolutionaries back down very fast.....
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:45 PM   #62
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I get the thinking went something like this...

1) Stage a revolution and take over the Capitol.
2) Wave flags and shout about how the Election was stolen.
3) Suddenly and somehow convince everyone that an investigation was needed.
4) Get Congress to halt the count and hold an investigation into the Election
5) Find the obvious and totally undebunkable evidence of fraud that no one has been able to show as of yet.
6) Have the "Real vote" restored showing that Trump won with 75% of the vote
7) Have Trump declared the winner and President for Life because the Democrats cheated and tried to stage a coup by stealing the election.
8) Have Joe and Hunter Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Kamalia Harris, and all the other Democrats arrested and tried for Treason for stealing the election.
9) Have the Democrat Party dissolved nationwide and make the Republican party the one and only allowed Party of the US.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:06 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I get the thinking went something like this...

1) Stage a revolution and take over the Capitol.
2) Wave flags and shout about how the Election was stolen.
3) Suddenly and somehow convince everyone that an investigation was needed.
4) Get Congress to halt the count and hold an investigation into the Election
5) Find the obvious and totally undebunkable evidence of fraud that no one has been able to show as of yet.
6) Have the "Real vote" restored showing that Trump won with 75% of the vote
7) Have Trump declared the winner and President for Life because the Democrats cheated and tried to stage a coup by stealing the election.
8) Have Joe and Hunter Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Kamalia Harris, and all the other Democrats arrested and tried for Treason for stealing the election.
9) Have the Democrat Party dissolved nationwide and make the Republican party the one and only allowed Party of the US.
That seems to be pretty much it.
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again that's how we use to think back before the post-fact world. That question makes no sense in a post-fact world because it assume the election results are a "fact" that can't be changed.

No. They didn't think they could overturn the election. But that didn't wasn't the point. They wanted to create an alternative narrative where what happened in the election was some kind of debatable opinion instead of an objective fact.
I think you’re right.

It is always dangerous to make conclusions about what Trump thinks, but I consider the possibility that he wanted to make it debatable and drag that out for as long as he could. I can easily see him (erroneously) thinking “if a winner cannot be identified then I get to stay president.”
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Old 9th January 2021, 01:00 AM   #65
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I don't what they were expecting. The carrying of zip ties by some suggest some were looking to take prisoners.

However, NOW there are many who are feeling betrayed by Trump after his concession speech and call for the insurrectionists to be prosecuted. Its all over Parler and other extreme right wing social media...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1784318.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ack-of-support
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Old 9th January 2021, 01:09 AM   #66
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So... they latched their fortunes onto a cowardly grifter whose MO is to throw anyone under the bus to save his own ass, and now they're whining about the tire tracks on their skin?

Trump was right about one thing, they really are special.
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Old 9th January 2021, 02:02 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
1. Get into the chambers while congressmen and congresswomen are still inside.

2. Shout Trump propaganda at them for hours.

3. ???

4. Trump is re-elected.


Number 3 might involve violence.

Um, no, on step two, I think.

I watched the 40 minute video of a guy who got close in on the action
by saying, "I've got a knife." An three times using that line he got right
up to the door.

Maybe he didn't have a knife and was bluffing.

Or, when the FBI catches him, they'll run his DNA through a cross check
in the computer for some unsolved murders in his area and come up with
some positive identifications.

P. S. He didn't seem all that concerned when the woman breaking down
the door got shot.
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Old 9th January 2021, 06:08 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That's an interesting comparison; what Trump actually said versus what people think they heard. His inability to speak in sentences is a talent that might very well save him from prosecution for incitement. The way he speaks is so incoherent you can't analyse it to precisely nail down any actionable quotation.
I think this inability is one of the most important factors in the rise of Trump.

When written down a Trump speech is a jumble of broken, half-finished (and often unfinishable) sentences seguing into other half-finished sentences, garnished with bombastic adjectives, assurances that this is the unvarnished truth, lots of repeating for emphasis and an anecdote about a big, teary eyed man who addresses him as "sir". You could call it stream-of-consciousness except that really oversells it, stream makes it sound like something graceful and organic. This is more like a whirlpool of half consciousness, or pinball of platitudes.

But Trump has a clear, confident voice and for a lot of people that's enough when they already essentially believe he agrees with them. So they take those half finished sentences that sound like something they agree with (and ignore those they don't agree with, which is easy because none of the sentences really mean anything) and out of them in their head they construct a speech which says what they want to hear.

ETA: My gist is that if Trump spoke in complete sentences it would be a lot more obvious how boring Trump is, how much he contradicts himself and how much of a swamp-critter he is.

Last edited by Didactylos; 9th January 2021 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 9th January 2021, 06:29 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
What a defense- "Your honor, our client, a man who has been President for the last four years, is such an incoherent nincompoop that nothing he says can ever reasonably be held to be what anybody else may have understood him to mean."
Like Rimmer's defence?

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Old 9th January 2021, 06:32 AM   #70
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Don't forget he tweeted while the mob were marching on the Capitol that Pence was supporting the vote and had betrayed everyone.
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Old 9th January 2021, 08:25 AM   #71
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Surely this must end with Trump behind bars. If the US is to save any face on the world stage, this has to end with Trump in prison. The US must show the world what happens to would be dictators.

If this ends with Trump spending his days golfing in sunny Florida on the taxpayers dime, and with federal protection, what message does that project to the world?

Last edited by dmaker; 9th January 2021 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:12 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
If this ends with Trump spending his days golfing in sunny Florida on the taxpayers dime, and with federal protection, what message does that project to the world?
Correct one. USA is laughingstock.
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:33 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
Surely this must end with Trump behind bars. If the US is to save any face on the world stage, this has to end with Trump in prison. The US must show the world what happens to would be dictators.

If this ends with Trump spending his days golfing in sunny Florida on the taxpayers dime, and with federal protection, what message does that project to the world?
I wonder if Mar-al-Lago's security is better than the Capitol's? What one angry mob can attempt so can another.
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:50 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
Surely this must end with Trump behind bars. If the US is to save any face on the world stage, this has to end with Trump in prison. The US must show the world what happens to would be dictators.

If this ends with Trump spending his days golfing in sunny Florida on the taxpayers dime, and with federal protection, what message does that project to the world?
The rest of the world lost any hope 4 years ago
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:56 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Well, according to Kevin Sorbo-

-the fact that Antifa/BLM were visibly present at other events is why you should believe they were invisibly present for this one- you know they must have been there because they weren't. That's a knot in logic that, by design, cannot be unknotted.
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Maybe, just maybe, people listened to the Mayor of Washington and stayed home as she asked them to?
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Or maybe they were just following Napoleon's advice about don't interfere when your enemy is destroying himself.
It's far simpler than all that: They (we) had already won. Why take time away from home and work to counter a rally for a president who is on the way out? Who could have predicted that a president - even this one - would encourage his supporters (cult) to attack Congress and his own vice president?

There are good reasons most people were shocked by this even despite the unprecedented behavior of the rapist-in-chief.
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Old 9th January 2021, 10:14 AM   #76
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I don't know what they expected. I do know what actually happened later.

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Old 9th January 2021, 10:16 AM   #77
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I sincerely hope he has ruined his life.
Unlike those like the guy who tased himself and died, merely ruining his family's lives.
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Old 9th January 2021, 10:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's far simpler than all that: They (we) had already won. Why take time away from home and work to counter a rally for a president who is on the way out? Who could have predicted that a president - even this one - would encourage his supporters (cult) to attack Congress and his own vice president?

There are good reasons most people were shocked by this even despite the unprecedented behavior of the rapist-in-chief.
Please you can’t call him “the rapist-in-chief’, as his lawyer - a M Cohen - said in 2015 “....And, of course, understand that by the very definition, you can’t rape your spouse. It is true, you cannot rape your spouse. And there’s very clear case law.” And I am sure you will like me have the utmost respect for the legal opinion of such a learned lawyer.

I believe the correct title is “not-rape-rape-rapist-in-chief”.
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Last edited by Darat; 9th January 2021 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Sorry it was 2015 not 2016
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Old 9th January 2021, 10:23 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I don't know what they expected. I do know what actually happened later.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...yvq8tbba61.png
Poor thing, did they take away his knitcap? It went so well with the poop-eating grin.
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Old 9th January 2021, 01:17 PM   #80
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I know it sounds childish and petty, but I sincerely hope that Mace girl has read about all the arrests and is hiding in her bedroom and wetting herself every time somebody knocks on the door.


After all, she did confess to taking part in a Revolution.


Norm
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