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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:36 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That wasn't true with Obamacare. That wasn't true with the tax cut either.
Only when "reconciliation" is in play. It's not clear to me how elastic that is.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 09:01 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Only when "reconciliation" is in play. It's not clear to me how elastic that is.
I'm not sure what you mean. It takes a majority in both houses and POTUS to turn a bill into law. The problem is cloture in the Senate. But rules in the Senate are controlled by the majority party and both parties suspended the 60 vote cloture rule.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 09:21 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Capitalism only truly works for Society as a whole, when sufficient numbers of those who become wealthy are also humanitarians and return some of the benefits of their skills at making money... people like Dietmar Hopp, George Kaiser, Bill and Melinda Gates, Eli Broad, Pierre Omidar, Jim Simons, Ted Turner, Michael Bloomberg, Azim Premji, Warren Buffet and even Elon Musk and Jezz Bezos to a lesser extent (to name but a few).

Unfortunately, there are not enough of them, and if all capitalists were like Trump, the world would be a destitute place!
All of those people would be as successful -- though maybe not quite as rich -- if throughout their careers they had paid higher income taxes, higher capital gains taxes, higher wages and benefits to their employees, and eventually higher estate taxes. They have benefited from living in a society that protects personal and property rights with laws, courts, the police and ultimately the military. Corporations are artificial creatures created by law; their obligations can be re-defined by law. And how much of their wealth should they be able to pass along to their heirs? You can argue that old Sam Walton earned everything he got by building a general store into a global powerhouse; can you say the same about his five children who inherited around $20 BILLION each?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:11 PM   #44
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I think Sanders plan for health Care is more liberal than a lot of European plans. It is free dental for all ages. It also bans all private insurance.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
At least according to this article



I've only quoted the first two policies discussed, but there are 8 more in the article.

I find this interesting because, being British myself, it's always been the case for me that most left-wing politicians in the US would be thought of as right-wing here in the UK (although the political landscape here has shifted right over the last few decades). If this article is accurate, then it suggests that there may be less disconnect between the UK population and the US population, and that it's just the politicians themselves who are that far apart.
Smart skeptics should try to apply their skepticism even more rigorously when a news item suits their own particular biases.

Let me ask you quite simply--is there an nagging doubt in your mind that what this article says could possibly be true? That's the warning bell you should be heeding.

I agree that compared to the UK and a lot of Europe, the US has a fairly conservative political culture. But to read that article you'd think we'd transformed into France overnight. It seems more likely that the article cherry-picks poll results that appear to prove that point and ignores others.

To believe that AOC and Bernie are centrists in the US, you'd almost have to conclude that the Democrats and the media are in on this gigantic plot to help the Republicans, because otherwise the GOP wouldn't get a significant number of votes.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:09 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I hear this all the time as if British people can run brilliant government programs but Americans are unable because of the superiority of the not racist British people.
You're free to pretend that I said something completely different to what I said, if you like. I'm not sure what you think it will add to the conversation,though.

Quote:
What you don't understand is the US is far more complex than the UK. Take the population of England, that's almost the number of non-citizens residing in the US. Tens of millions of those are in the US illegally. Guess what? They call get free health care by going to the ER and health clinics with no intention of paying the bill. Guess who does pay for it? American citizens.
Nobody pays in the UK.

You also seem to be misunderstanding the terms "per capita" and "as a percentage of GDP".

Still, the topic of this thread isn't healthcare. I suggest that if you want to discuss it further, you start a thread about it.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:20 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Smart skeptics should try to apply their skepticism even more rigorously when a news item suits their own particular biases.

Let me ask you quite simply--is there an nagging doubt in your mind that what this article says could possibly be true? That's the warning bell you should be heeding.
I didn't post the article as a declaration of what I believed to be true. I posted the article because I found it interesting and thought it would generate interesting discussion.

Seriously, just think about it - given that I'm British, why would I have a partisan approach and/or a personal investment of any kind in US politics? What kind of sense does that make? I'm not American. I'm as emotionally invested in US politics are you are in Tuvaluian politics.

This article being 100% true would affect me in exactly the same way and by exactly the same amount as if it's 100% untrue - not at all.

Quote:
It seems more likely that the article cherry-picks poll results that appear to prove that point and ignores others.
I'd love to see links to polls that contradict those in the article, if you know of any. That kind of thing would be exactly why I started this thread.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:06 AM   #48
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[quote=Baylor;12620167]

What you don't understand is the US is far more complex than the UK.

[quote]

It's bigger. Not more complex

Quote:
Take the population of England, that's almost the number of non-citizens residing in the US.
You sure?

Quote:
Tens of millions of those are in the US illegally.
You SURE???

Quote:
Guess what? They all get free health care by going to the ER and health clinics with no intention of paying the bill. Guess who does pay for it? American citizens.
And? What's the problem? This is exactly how the NHS works too in practice. Nobody pays anything regardless of where they are from for emergency treatment.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:25 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't know how it works over there, but in the US, in order to pass legislation that is vaguely controversial, you need 60+ seats in the Senate otherwise no soup for you.

The odds of Dems winning 60+ seats in 2020 are virtually nil. Universal health care, for instance, doesn't have an icecube's chance in hell no matter who is POTUS.
Get rid of the filibuster and pass it with 51. Let the GOP campaign on taking healthcare away from millions.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm going to start compiling all these ghrblah you no understand i win!!!! posts, just to see how exhausting it can be to be on this forum. (Check out my most recent post before this one)
Unusually tired? That could be early onset Alzheimer's.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:55 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Get rid of the filibuster and pass it with 51. Let the GOP campaign on taking healthcare away from millions.
This

Use the "nuclear option" which only requires 51 votes to end-run around Rule 22 and put an end to the filibuster.

Then Universal Healthcare can be passed with 51 Senate votes.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:23 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Smart skeptics should try to apply their skepticism even more rigorously when a news item suits their own particular biases.

Let me ask you quite simply--is there an nagging doubt in your mind that what this article says could possibly be true? That's the warning bell you should be heeding.

I agree that compared to the UK and a lot of Europe, the US has a fairly conservative political culture. But to read that article you'd think we'd transformed into France overnight. It seems more likely that the article cherry-picks poll results that appear to prove that point and ignores others.

To believe that AOC and Bernie are centrists in the US, you'd almost have to conclude that the Democrats and the media are in on this gigantic plot to help the Republicans, because otherwise the GOP wouldn't get a significant number of votes.
Let me ask you quite simply--is there an(sic) nagging doubt in your mind that taking the populist silent majority for granted is coming back to bit you in your conservative ass?

The GOP are running out of uneducated voters to con. When asked without the usual sixteen tons of propaganda, the population, on the whole:

> Favors universal health care.
> Thinks there's nothing wrong with taxing the super rich at 1950s marginal rates.
> Is against building The Wall (er.... barrier)
> Doesn't trust Trump Nor the Republicans to Deliver on Any of the Above

While the conservative pundits have been playing the Coulter playbook and counting on minorities to turn against the Dems for "taking them for granted", they've been playing the long con on blue collar voters and those voters may just not be buying their Special Trickle Down Casserole any longer.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:46 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Get rid of the filibuster and pass it with 51. Let the GOP campaign on taking healthcare away from millions.
I suppose. That cuts both ways though, e.g. recent SCOTUS appointments. Just imagine the legislation that would have passed during the first two Trump years.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 08:02 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure what you mean. It takes a majority in both houses and POTUS to turn a bill into law. The problem is cloture in the Senate. But rules in the Senate are controlled by the majority party and both parties suspended the 60 vote cloture rule.
Incorrect. In terms of legislation, that's only true for reconciliation.

I've been surprised by the legislation that was enacted via reconciliation: Bush tax cuts, ACA, Trump tax cuts. Enactment of ACA was especially surprising. Maybe medicare for all would be reconcilable this way. I dunno.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 09:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I suppose. That cuts both ways though, e.g. recent SCOTUS appointments. Just imagine the legislation that would have passed during the first two Trump years.
The tax cuts they were already able to pass. It's all the GOP can consistently agree on; their donors need tax cuts so they can keep getting donations.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 09:04 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Incorrect. In terms of legislation, that's only true for reconciliation.

I've been surprised by the legislation that was enacted via reconciliation: Bush tax cuts, ACA, Trump tax cuts. Enactment of ACA was especially surprising. Maybe medicare for all would be reconcilable this way. I dunno.
You can thank Joe Lieberman for that having to go through reconciliation.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 09:24 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The tax cuts they were already able to pass. It's all the GOP can consistently agree on; their donors need tax cuts so they can keep getting donations.
Due to reconciliation, which isn't subject to filibuster.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 10:39 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Due to reconciliation, which isn't subject to filibuster.
Understand, those rules are set at the beginning of the session and can be changed at any time by majority rule. They also can suspend the 60 vote rule for a single issue by majority rule. This exception for making a simple majority for bills passed through reconciliation is an example.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:25 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm going to start compiling all these ghrblah you no understand i win!!!! posts, just to see how exhausting it can be to be on this forum. (Check out my most recent post before this one)
Translation: I have no logical response so I will throw a vague insult instead. #MAGA.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:30 PM   #60
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Being a Centrist myself, I'd consider them both Left of Centre.

The biggest trouble in the US is that your politics is skewed so far to the right, that anyone from the Moderate Right and further are seen as the Radical Left.

The second biggest trouble is that for some reason USAian's seem to believe that Centrist sit between the positions of the Parties rather then at the Centre of the Ideologies. I often hear people claiming that as the GOP goes further Right it drags the Centre to the Right. Nope, not true. What really happens is that the Centrist just starts to look more Left based on the GOP position.

Finally the third problem (and this is common in thought) is that the Centrist only takes on policies that are a compromise of left and right ideals, or that are populous. This isn't correct. The true Centrist is one that takes policies from wherever they will get the best result, be that from the Left, the Right, or a Compromise between the two. They believe that there is no one strict ideological answer to every problem, and so each problem should be resolved by the best solution, not by ideology and not because they are particularly popular.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:45 PM   #61
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Good, now we have a thread where all the "but in Europe you'd be a conservative/liberal" crowd can play in. Thank you.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:51 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Being a Centrist myself, I'd consider them both Left of Centre.

The biggest trouble in the US is that your politics is skewed so far to the right, that anyone from the Moderate Right and further are seen as the Radical Left.

The second biggest trouble is that for some reason USAian's seem to believe that Centrist sit between the positions of the Parties rather then at the Centre of the Ideologies. I often hear people claiming that as the GOP goes further Right it drags the Centre to the Right. Nope, not true. What really happens is that the Centrist just starts to look more Left based on the GOP position.

Finally the third problem (and this is common in thought) is that the Centrist only takes on policies that are a compromise of left and right ideals, or that are populous. This isn't correct. The true Centrist is one that takes policies from wherever they will get the best result, be that from the Left, the Right, or a Compromise between the two. They believe that there is no one strict ideological answer to every problem, and so each problem should be resolved by the best solution, not by ideology and not because they are particularly popular.
This is crap. And so are the left/right/center labels. They are meaningless because the labels are all contingent on everyone's individual opinion and that changes over time. And I'm sorry, those positions also vary with the different issues.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:46 PM   #63
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I grow weary of the conflation of social spending with socialism. We have a social and moral responsibility to take care of the sick and the needy. Something I fully support. Government take over of the private sector economy has proved to be a poor way of making things better.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Being a Centrist myself, I'd consider them both Left of Centre.

The biggest trouble in the US is that your politics is skewed so far to the right, that anyone from the Moderate Right and further are seen as the Radical Left.

The second biggest trouble is that for some reason USAian's seem to believe that Centrist sit between the positions of the Parties rather then at the Centre of the Ideologies. I often hear people claiming that as the GOP goes further Right it drags the Centre to the Right. Nope, not true. What really happens is that the Centrist just starts to look more Left based on the GOP position.

Finally the third problem (and this is common in thought) is that the Centrist only takes on policies that are a compromise of left and right ideals, or that are populous. This isn't correct. The true Centrist is one that takes policies from wherever they will get the best result, be that from the Left, the Right, or a Compromise between the two. They believe that there is no one strict ideological answer to every problem, and so each problem should be resolved by the best solution, not by ideology and not because they are particularly popular.
I was going to say this is a bunch of a crap, then I read the rest of the thread and saw someone else said the same thing.

But I really have nothing else to say other than this is a bunch of crap. I implore you to stop discussing "USA politics" before having a rudimentary understanding of the topic.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Good, now we have a thread where all the "but in Europe you'd be a conservative/liberal" crowd can play in. Thank you.
They show up in every thread. But I think that guy is from New Zealand though.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:10 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You sure?
Positive

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You SURE???
Positive

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And? What's the problem? This is exactly how the NHS works too in practice. Nobody pays anything regardless of where they are from for emergency treatment.
NHS still gets paid from its reciprocal agreements. And there are not 40,000,000 foreigners washing up on UK hospitals. Maybe you're naive enough to think Mexico will reimburse American hospitals for all the times its citizens skipped out on hospital bills.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Positive
And wrong.

There are roughly 40 million immigrants in the US, approximately half are naturalised citizens. That means give or take 20m non-citizens (most of whom of course are still legal and pay taxes etc)

The population of England is 55 million. The population of the UK is 65m.

So the non-citizen population of the US is approximately 36% of the population of England.

Quote:
Positive
And yet most estimates put the undocumented population at around 11m. So...wrong again.

Quote:
NHS still gets paid from its reciprocal agreements. And there are not 40,000,000 foreigners washing up on UK hospitals. Maybe you're naive enough to think Mexico will reimburse American hospitals for all the times its citizens skipped out on hospital bills.
You have no idea how the NHS works in practice. There are not 40m foreigners washing up on anyone's hospitals.

Although US citizens do like to get affordable treatment in Mexico since their own country is so ****** up that people can't afford to go to hospital in their own homeland! https://costsofcare.org/why-hospital...nt-about-cost/
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:11 PM   #68
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Baylor obviously supports the notion that if he discovered to his horror that he paid far too much for something then he can't let anyone else get the same thing legitimately for less than him. He would have to insist they were somehow ripping HIM off, that the whole thing was probably "illegal", and that the other people somehow "cheated". He just can't allow that he got bested and that there are better ways. I can just see the toys being tossed from the pram now.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:37 PM   #69
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One of the measures of a country's level of civilisation is how it treats its sick, its elderly, and its children. This is a fact often lost on members of the elitist right such as Baylor, who think only wealthy white people deserve healthcare and age benefits.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:40 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Good, now we have a thread where all the "but in Europe you'd be a conservative/liberal" crowd can play in. Thank you.
If you don't like it here, you don't have to be here.

The right-wing, white nationalist threads you are looking for are thataway --------->
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I grow weary of the conflation of social spending with socialism. We have a social and moral responsibility to take care of the sick and the needy. Something I fully support. Government take over of the private sector economy has proved to be a poor way of making things better.
IMV, it depends on what it is. Private sector for profit is a very poor model for delivering healthcare. It's also poor when it comes to fire and police protection, prisons, the judicial system. I'm sure I'm not mentioning every product or service that private enterprise simply fails.

The profit motive doesn't always enhance or make delivering services more efficiently, it can and often does corrupt everything.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:21 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And wrong.

There are roughly 40 million immigrants in the US, approximately half are naturalised citizens. That means give or take 20m non-citizens (most of whom of course are still legal and pay taxes etc)

The population of England is 55 million. The population of the UK is 65m.

So the non-citizen population of the US is approximately 36% of the population of England.



And yet most estimates put the undocumented population at around 11m. So...wrong again.
Not surprised you believe the first thing you find on Google.

Quote:
Our results lead us to the conclusion that the widely accepted estimate of 11.3 million undocumented immigrants in the United States is too small. Our model estimates indicate that the true number is likely to be larger, with an estimated ninety-five percent probability interval ranging from 16.2 to 29.5 million undocumented immigrants.
Rest assured it's on the higher end of this estimate.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0201193

Last edited by Baylor; 3rd March 2019 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 10:48 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not surprised you believe the first thing you find on Google.



Rest assured it's on the higher end of this estimate.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0201193
And not surprising that you'd pick a discredited study that supports a dystopian conclusion. The Yale Study, as it's referred to, uses shoddy math and made up statistics. Their calculations are based on Continuing Incompetence at the border. They count every apprehended illegal and multiply that to get a made-up figure of "number they didn't catch". This completely ignores that the apprehension RATE may have improved with all the money successive administrations have thrown at stepping up border security.

They also count "one illegal at a time" ignoring that many of those illegal are migrant workers who have been apprehended numerous times. When the apprehensions are used as your multiplier, that distorts the numbers.

Their assumption is that every illegal who crossed into the US stayed. Many go back and forth across the border. Their figures allow for about five million more crossings from Mexico than any other study or official statistic. Those must be some mighty big tunnels.

As one reviewer put it, the people behind the study say that they ran the numbers from their model 1,000,000 times and got the same result. All that means when you have flawed math is that the math worked... and came out with a flawed conclusion 1,000,000 times.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 11:43 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
ATheir calculations are based on Continuing Incompetence at the border. They count every apprehended illegal and multiply that to get a made-up figure of "number they didn't catch". This completely ignores that the apprehension RATE may have improved with all the money successive administrations have thrown at stepping up border security
Yet they didn't ignore it at all. This is the second time you've done this; you claim authors of a study you don't like ignore something they didn't.

Quote:
Most experts agree that the apprehension rate was significantly lower in earlier years [12, 13]. A recent study [12] using data from the Mexican Migration Project estimates this rate for every year from 1990 to 2010; estimates in the 1990’s begin from the low twenties and range upwards to approximately 30%. A second study estimates the rate for 2003 at around 20% [13]. Given these estimates, and the general view that apprehension rates have risen, for our conservative estimate we assume that the apprehension rate in years 1990-2004 was equal to the average rate in years 2005-10 or 39%; this is well above the rates discussed in the literature for earlier years and thus tends to reduce our estimate of the number of undocumented immigrants since it implies a larger fraction are apprehended at the border. For our simulation we assume a uniform distribution over the range [0.25,0.40] for the earlier years, still above the average rates in the literature for these years.
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Their assumption is that every illegal who crossed into the US stayed.
No, that's not their assumption at all. The assumption is border crossers are unlikely to re-cross the border in their first year residing in the US illegally. The authors actually discussed this at length. Reading the study you're trying to debunk usually helps.
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The Yale Study, as it's referred to, uses shoddy math and made up statistics.
Emulating your hero, George W Bush, are you now?

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Old 4th March 2019, 02:17 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not surprised you believe the first thing you find on Google.
Not a surprise that you don't admit you are wrong on your claims.

Even taking your made up numbers based on nothing more than speculation the number of non-citizens in the US is not the same or close to the population of England or the UK (and it's not clear you even know the difference)

Of course pretty much all estimates disagree with your number and no, I am not taking your word for it surprisingly that it is at the high end of a made up estimate.

And as an excuse for the richest country in the world not being able to provide healthcare for its people it's not even close to being on target. It's completely irrelevant.

Of course, if you were genuinely concerned about the effect of undocumented migrants on public services there is an easy solution. Document them. Get them paying taxes.
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Old 4th March 2019, 03:37 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And not surprising that you'd pick a discredited study that supports a dystopian conclusion. The Yale Study, as it's referred to, uses shoddy math and made up statistics. Their calculations are based on Continuing Incompetence at the border. They count every apprehended illegal and multiply that to get a made-up figure of "number they didn't catch". This completely ignores that the apprehension RATE may have improved with all the money successive administrations have thrown at stepping up border security.

They also count "one illegal at a time" ignoring that many of those illegal are migrant workers who have been apprehended numerous times. When the apprehensions are used as your multiplier, that distorts the numbers.

Their assumption is that every illegal who crossed into the US stayed. Many go back and forth across the border. Their figures allow for about five million more crossings from Mexico than any other study or official statistic. Those must be some mighty big tunnels.

As one reviewer put it, the people behind the study say that they ran the numbers from their model 1,000,000 times and got the same result. All that means when you have flawed math is that the math worked... and came out with a flawed conclusion 1,000,000 times.
Yep, pretty much all of the reviews of this study makes it look like a pig's breakfast.. like this one...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6150498/
"Fazel-Zarandi, Feinstein and Kaplan’s methodology makes sense in principle. It accounts for all of the ways that unauthorized immigrants are added or subtracted from the population; it makes creative use of new data on visa overstays and unauthorized border crossings; and it accounts for uncertainty by producing a range of estimates based on a range of underlying assumptions.

However, for several reasons that we elaborate below, Fazel-Zarandi, Feinstein and Kaplan’s approach is very sensitive to underlying assumptions. As a consequence, their estimates range widely and are too uncertain to be of value for policy purposes. Additionally, the knowledge base about key inputs for their model—particularly assumptions about the circularity of unauthorized migration flows during the 1990s—is insufficiently developed to support their approach. As we discuss below, it is very likely that Fazel-Zarandi, Feinstein and Kaplan’s estimates of growth during the 1990s are too high because of the assumptions used about the level of return migration among illegal border crossers during the 1990s. Because of the way their estimates build over time, this causes their estimates to expand rapidly, compounding errors over the years and yielding much higher estimates than those implied by alternative indicators of the size of the unauthorized population."
Now I'm not a statistician, but I am an Aeronautical Engineer by trade. What they appear to have done (if I understand the commentary correctly) is make a rookie mistake similar to one I see rookie engineers make - spacing a sequence of key-marks by measuring the next mark from the position of the last mark instead of measuring each mark from the first; it results in cumulative error.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:36 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Yet they didn't ignore it at all. This is the second time you've done this; you claim authors of a study you don't like ignore something they didn't.



No, that's not their assumption at all. The assumption is border crossers are unlikely to re-cross the border in their first year residing in the US illegally. The authors actually discussed this at length. Reading the study you're trying to debunk usually helps.

Emulating your hero, George W Bush, are you now?
Haw haw. Do you realize there's an origin to that line that is free of political influence. No, of course you don't. I've been using Fool Me Once... as a motto or comment on websites since the olden days of the 1990s.

I read the study. They address those things by making dubious assumptions. That make their math crappy. The tell is when the authors state they ran the model a million times and the results came out the same. They ran the model WITHOUT CHANGING THE UNDERLYING ASSUMPTIONS so they came up with crap results based on their crap math.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:45 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Not a surprise that you don't admit you are wrong on your claims.

Even taking your made up numbers based on nothing more than speculation the number of non-citizens in the US is not the same or close to the population of England or the UK (and it's not clear you even know the difference)
The ten billionth BLAHABHA you don't know what that means gralsk!!!
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Of course pretty much all estimates disagree with your number and no, I am not taking your word for it surprisingly that it is at the high end of a made up estimate.

And as an excuse for the richest country in the world not being able to provide healthcare for its people it's not even close to being on target. It's completely irrelevant.

Of course, if you were genuinely concerned about the effect of undocumented migrants on public services there is an easy solution. Document them. Get them paying taxes.
Going by this idiotic comment, you don't even know what document means.
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Old 5th March 2019, 02:15 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The ten billionth BLAHABHA you don't know what that means gralsk!!!
Going by this idiotic comment, you don't even know what document means.
So.... no actual dispute of the numbers then? Just lying for a pathetic racist agenda that has NOTHING to do with the topic at all?
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Old 5th March 2019, 03:46 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'd love to see links to polls that contradict those in the article, if you know of any. That kind of thing would be exactly why I started this thread.
I'm going to take the silence on this request as Brainster not knowing of any such polls, or of not being able to find any.
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