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Old 10th August 2022, 12:29 PM   #881
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Perry asked for a pardon from Trump according to Hutchinson. He denied it. Hmmmm...whom to believe? A Big Lie supporter who was a major player in the attempt to overturn the election or Hutchinson whose testimony has proved to be very credible? There's a reason he asked for a pardon.
And in the link, Perry makes a big deal of the FBI just serving him a warrant and taking his phone, rather than politely letting him know they're going to need it a week from Tuesday. Because (as we've seen with the SS and DoD officials), there's absolutely no reason to think those who were complicit in a coup would attempt to delete texts on their phones...
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:43 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by HawksFan View Post
It appears the FBI has executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/polit...ump/index.html
I wonder what they're going to find, aside from documents which should never have left government possession.

Possibly something relevant to Jan 6th?
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:20 PM   #883
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GOP delanda est.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:38 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
GOP delanda est.
Destruunt se intus.
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Old 12th August 2022, 04:54 AM   #885
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All of the excuses for the EC are lies. It was never meant to protect the rural areas, it was never meant to protect the smaller states, it was never about "making sure most of the States elect a President."

It was a failsafe because as forward thinking and Democratic as the Founding Fathers were they were still terrified of the common people.
How sensible of them.
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Old 12th August 2022, 11:56 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
How sensible of them.
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Old 13th August 2022, 07:59 AM   #887
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All of the excuses for the EC are lies. It was never meant to protect the rural areas, it was never meant to protect the smaller states, it was never about "making sure most of the States elect a President."
This is incorrect, per James Madison.

The Electoral College was specifically designed to alleviate the concerns of people who owned slaves to work their plantations, which were by and large located in the more rural states.
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Old 13th August 2022, 09:21 AM   #888
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is incorrect, per James Madison.

The Electoral College was specifically designed to alleviate the concerns of people who owned slaves to work their plantations, which were by and large located in the more rural states.
that was the intention, but it got hijack before even the first time it was used.
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Old 14th August 2022, 05:36 AM   #889
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is incorrect, per James Madison.

The Electoral College was specifically designed to alleviate the concerns of people who owned slaves to work their plantations, which were by and large located in the more rural states.
All of the states were rural states. Less than 5% of the population lived in cities.
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Old 14th August 2022, 07:14 AM   #890
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
All of the states were rural states. Less than 5% of the population lived in cities.
This is true, but if you split that 5% out by region you get 8.1% urban in the NE and only 2.1% urban in the South, in the first census after the constitution was adopted. So it would be more correct to say that the Electoral College was expressly designed to advantage the much less urbanized states, where slave labor was considered essential to the plantation economy.
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Old 14th August 2022, 09:46 AM   #891
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is true, but if you split that 5% out by region you get 8.1% urban in the NE and only 2.1% urban in the South, in the first census after the constitution was adopted. So it would be more correct to say that the Electoral College was expressly designed to advantage the much less urbanized states, where slave labor was considered essential to the plantation economy.
And in figuring out the number of Electoral Collage Electors in each state slaves were counted has 3/5ths of a person.

I have always found it amusing that in the debates over the slavery issue so many Southerners were utterly incensed that the North etc., would not simply accept that slaves were property and some, like Jefferson Davis, would say often just what is the difference between slave and other property. And yet they would would get very upset if anyone sugggested that if slaves were property that they not be counted in estimating political representation. So slaves were for the purpose of securing more political power in some sense persons but in others just property. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

At the time of the Constitutional Convention many Southerners wanted slaves counted has full persons in the calculation of representation. The 3/5ths clause was a compromise. And at the time and later some Southerners were candid enough to admit that the 3/5ths clause was designed to help in the defence of Property Rights i.e., Slavery.
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Old 14th August 2022, 10:59 AM   #892
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Just for the sake of keeping things topical, here's what happened to the Confederate flag enthusiast from Jan 6th...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jan-6-k...-flag-verdict/
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Old 14th August 2022, 11:00 AM   #893
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
And in figuring out the number of Electoral Collage Electors in each state slaves were counted has 3/5ths of a person.

I have always found it amusing that in the debates over the slavery issue so many Southerners were utterly incensed that the North etc., would not simply accept that slaves were property and some, like Jefferson Davis, would say often just what is the difference between slave and other property. And yet they would would get very upset if anyone sugggested that if slaves were property that they not be counted in estimating political representation. So slaves were for the purpose of securing more political power in some sense persons but in others just property. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

At the time of the Constitutional Convention many Southerners wanted slaves counted has full persons in the calculation of representation. The 3/5ths clause was a compromise. And at the time and later some Southerners were candid enough to admit that the 3/5ths clause was designed to help in the defence of Property Rights i.e., Slavery.
Also gives lie to “state rights” when the south demanded an overarching federal law.
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Old 14th August 2022, 12:51 PM   #894
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Just for the sake of keeping things topical, here's what happened to the Confederate flag enthusiast from Jan 6th...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jan-6-k...-flag-verdict/
Looks like they're going to be spending some quality father and son time together...in prison.

"... Kevin Seefried did not complete the 9th grade and didn't know much about history."

I'm shocked.
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Old 14th August 2022, 03:57 PM   #895
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Looks like they're going to be spending some quality father and son time together...in prison.

"... Kevin Seefried did not complete the 9th grade and didn't know much about history."

I'm shocked.
I seem to remember having civics (how the government works) in 8th grade.
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Old 14th August 2022, 09:13 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I seem to remember having civics (how the government works) in 8th grade.
Eighth grade was when Civics was usually taught. Somehow, I suspect Kevin slept through class if he bothered to show up.
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Old 15th August 2022, 02:26 PM   #897
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From: Politico
A federal judge on Monday turned down Sen. Lindsey Graham’s bid to throw out a subpoena compelling him to testify before the Atlanta-area grand jury investigating Donald Trump’s effort to overturn the 2020 election.... Investigators intend to query Graham about two phone calls with Georgia election officials, at the same time Trump was attempting to subvert his defeat, that included a discussion of the process for counting absentee ballots....Graham had argued that the subpoena should be completely scrapped because it violated the Constitution’s “speech or debate” clause, which protects federal lawmakers from being subject to questioning for matters related to their official duties...But (Judge) May...said Graham’s argument was unpersuasive because there were many areas he could be questioned about that would fall outside of his legislative responsibilities.

Graham is expected to appeal. The big question is whether the appeal will be fast-tracked, or will it drag on through the courts until it has become time for the investigation to move on.
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Old 16th August 2022, 08:14 PM   #898
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As expected, Liz Cheney has lost her primary election in Wyoming.
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Old 16th August 2022, 09:55 PM   #899
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
As expected, Liz Cheney has lost her primary election in Wyoming.
Surely the least important seat in the House.
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Old 16th August 2022, 10:00 PM   #900
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maybe she can join Andrew Yang's new Party - and kick him out.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:56 AM   #901
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Surely the least important seat in the House.
Maybe Yellowstone will blow now and we will not have too worry about another Trump election Conspiracy theorist in congress.
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Old 17th August 2022, 03:43 AM   #902
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
As expected, Liz Cheney has lost her primary election in Wyoming.
What does this mean for the Jan 6 committe?
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Old 17th August 2022, 03:47 AM   #903
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
What does this mean for the Jan 6 committe?
She’s still a member of it until January, I imagine.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:07 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
She’s still a member of it until January, I imagine.
Kinzinger will be gone then, too, as he's not running again. But I think the J6C will be done by then and the DOJ as well.

The GOP in Congress will be even crazier than it is now with even fewer sane Republicans. I really do fear for this country.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:11 PM   #905
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
maybe she can join Andrew Yang's new Party - and kick him out.
CHeney is too conservative for a centrist party.
Of course there is no such thing as a centrist in the eyes of many here.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:12 PM   #906
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Kinzinger will be gone then, too, as he's not running again. But I think the J6C will be done by then and the DOJ as well.

The GOP in Congress will be even crazier than it is now with even fewer sane Republicans. I really do fear for this country.

I have colnsidered a slide into chaos and Civil War a possible outcome for some time......and have taken heat for it.
In fact, the US might not survive. I can see the country splitting into seperate states, frankly.
The real problem is too many people are still in denial about what is happening; for too many is "Oh, It;s just Politics".
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:15 PM   #907
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
How sensible of them.
The founding fathers knew, from the history of Greece and Rome, that most Democracies self destruct by the people wllingly giving power to a demogogue.
Donald Trump is exactly the kind of politician the Founding Fathers feared most.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:01 PM   #908
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
CHeney is too conservative for a centrist party.
Of course there is no such thing as a centrist in the eyes of many here.
Most Democrats are Centrists.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:05 PM   #909
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Most Democrats are Centrists.
Moderates.

The distinction, as I've seen it used in English usually, is that 'moderates' come to their views honestly and they happen to be in the 'middle' of acceptable political discourse. A 'centrist' comes to their political views because they are in the middle of acceptable political discourse.

Centrists legitimize fascist tactics. Moderates become 'lefties' as fascism gains popularity because their views don't sift to accommodate the movement of the overton window.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:23 PM   #910
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Moderates.

The distinction, as I've seen it used in English usually, is that 'moderates' come to their views honestly and they happen to be in the 'middle' of acceptable political discourse. A 'centrist' comes to their political views because they are in the middle of acceptable political discourse.

Centrists legitimize fascist tactics. Moderates become 'lefties' as fascism gains popularity because their views don't sift to accommodate the movement of the overton window.
And your point is ...?
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:48 PM   #911
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Most Democrats are Centrists.
I'm not sure this is true.


First off, what's the center?

The labels conservative, liberal etc stop making sense a long time ago. Trump was never a conservative. Liz Cheney is a conservative. The Republican party isn't conservative it's now simply nuts.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:58 PM   #912
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The gut instinct of the average Democrat is to seek a buy-in for their policies from Republicans, even at the cost of compromising their politics.
And the post 9/11 years have proven that they are fully onboard with very questionable things for the sake of National Security.

It's only the boycott of the January 6Th commission by Republicans that saved it from being a total whitewash.
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Old 17th August 2022, 09:00 PM   #913
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I find it interesting that "current" Democrats are also considered "nuts", compared to "regular" Democrats, as identified by supporting positions that were considered "nuts" some years earlier.
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Old 17th August 2022, 10:54 PM   #914
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure this is true.


First off, what's the center?

The labels conservative, liberal etc stop making sense a long time ago. Trump was never a conservative. Liz Cheney is a conservative. The Republican party isn't conservative it's now simply nuts.
The Republican Party hasn't actually been "conservative" for a long time now, I think. But then, groups like Libertarians and white supremacists have been working to co-opt the term for even longer and use it to fool those who self-identify as conservative into supporting them, tapping especially into the group loyalty part that tends to come with that to hoodwink them about what being conservative actually means in application. The "conservative judges" of the Supreme Court, especially, have tended to be difficult to pass off as actually being conservative for a while, rather than just opportunistically or lazily claiming and being claimed to be such.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:21 PM   #915
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Most Democrats are Centrists.
I disagree.

In terms of America, I think they are predominantly centre-left but in the rest of the world they would be regarded well right of centre. To give you some sense of this, if you transplanted AOC into NZ politics, she would be considered centre-right. Swap it the other way round, and drop Ardern into US politics, she would be regarded as a very left wing politician, too far left for most Democrats. The GOP would consider her a radical left-wing socialist if not outright communist.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:23 PM   #916
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I disagree.

In terms of America, I think they are predominantly centre-left but in the rest of the world they would be regarded well right of centre. To give you some sense of this, if you transplanted AOC into NZ politics, she would be considered centre-right. Swap it the other way round, and drop Ardern into US politics, she would be regarded as a very left wing politician, too far left for most Democrats. The GOP would consider her a radical left-wing socialist if not outright communist.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:28 PM   #917
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I disagree.

In terms of America, I think they are predominantly centre-left but in the rest of the world they would be regarded well right of centre. To give you some sense of this, if you transplanted AOC into NZ politics, she would be considered centre-right. Swap it the other way round, and drop Ardern into US politics, she would be regarded as a very left wing politician, too far left for most Democrats. The GOP would consider her a radical left-wing socialist if not outright communist.
maybe I'm dense, but i don't see how that contradicts my statement.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:41 PM   #918
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
maybe I'm dense, but i don't see how that contradicts my statement.
I am think that Smartcooky was saying that by global standards, Democrats are right wingers, not centrists.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:53 PM   #919
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I am think that Smartcooky was saying that by global standards, Democrats are right wingers, not centrists.
I can agree with that.
But that it the result of trying to stay Centrist in a political landscape that has one side drift into the extreme far Right.
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Old 18th August 2022, 03:34 AM   #920
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure this is true.
Yea they might be to the right of Reagan but he was a well known liberal anyway.
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