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Old 13th August 2022, 06:21 AM   #1881
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Useful map tracking the current state of play

https://reproductiverights.org/maps/...laws-by-state/

Screenshot 2022-08-13 8.25.56 AM.jpg
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Old 13th August 2022, 11:00 AM   #1882
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Useful map tracking the current state of play

https://reproductiverights.org/maps/...laws-by-state/

Attachment 47049
Pretty damn bleak, for the “Land of the Free”
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Old 13th August 2022, 11:10 AM   #1883
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Pretty damn bleak, for the “Land of the Free”
It's a freedom sandwich with mystery meat in the middle.
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Old 13th August 2022, 12:14 PM   #1884
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Pretty damn bleak, for the “Land of the Free”
Bit off-topic, but I stopped calling it the "Land of the Free" when the U.S. topped the global charts in incarceration per capita.
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Old 13th August 2022, 12:32 PM   #1885
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Useful map tracking the current state of play

https://reproductiverights.org/maps/...laws-by-state/

Attachment 47049
Emphasis on "current" as clearly some of those "protected" are moving to the hostile or illegal buckets.
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Old 13th August 2022, 12:59 PM   #1886
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Again we retain the title "Land of the Free" specifically so literally every single non-American can make the exact same joke / wry witty observation in literally every single discussion of American politics. Consider it our softball pitch setup gift to the world.
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Old 13th August 2022, 03:25 PM   #1887
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
They have other ways of fighting back.
See Prohibition for details.
Hard to enforce a law when most people are against it.
That is a ridiculous comparison. Most women never need or undergo termination of pregnancy. Most people at least occasionally consume alcohol.
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Old 13th August 2022, 03:43 PM   #1888
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That is a ridiculous comparison. Most women never need or undergo termination of pregnancy. Most people at least occasionally consume alcohol.
Almost 1/4th of women will have an abortion before the age of 45. Yes that's not "most" but it's enough to not just casually dismiss as rare edge cases.
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Old 13th August 2022, 03:49 PM   #1889
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That is a ridiculous comparison. Most women never need or undergo termination of pregnancy. Most people at least occasionally consume alcohol.
I think it falls down also because abortion is not generally done alone, and the penalties for breaking the law are, I think, more severe than those of prohibition. There is, however, some merit to the idea that complete refusal can make it difficult to carry out a law.
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Old 17th August 2022, 09:10 AM   #1890
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From https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/fl-ne-florida-abortion-blocked-20220815-a6m4mcflzjehhfzhcdheiqhzdi-story.html:

Quote:
Appeals court blocks teen’s abortion under Florida consent law
By Jim Saunders
News Service of Florida • Aug 16, 2022 at 1:43 pm

TALLAHASSEE — An appeals court Monday upheld a decision by a Northwest Florida circuit judge to block a teen from having an abortion without notification and consent of a parent or guardian, agreeing she wasn’t “sufficiently mature” enough to end her pregnancy.

The teen, described by one appellate judge as almost 17 years old and “parentless,” sought court approval to bypass notification and consent requirements in state law.

Escambia County Circuit Judge Jessica Frydrychowicz denied the bypass request, and a three-judge panel of the 1st District Court of Appeal upheld that decision.

“The trial court found, based on the non-adversarial presentation below, that appellant (the teen) had not established by clear and convincing evidence that she was sufficiently mature to decide whether to terminate her pregnancy,” said the ruling, fully shared by Judges Harvey Jay and Rachel Nordby and partially joined by Judge Scott Makar. “Having reviewed the record, we affirm the trial court’s decision.

Makar dissented from part of the decision, writing that the appeals court should send the case back to the circuit judge for the possibility of further consideration.

But Jay and Nordby concluded that sending the case back to the circuit judge was not warranted.

The main decision did not provide many details of the case, but Makar wrote that the teen, identified only as Jane Doe 22-B, is “parentless,” lives with a relative and has an appointed guardian.

[...]
The assumption here is you need a certain level of maturity to have an abortion. You don't need a certain level of maturity to carry a pregnancy to term.

Actual ruling, for the sufficiently curious.
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Old 17th August 2022, 09:38 AM   #1891
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
From https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/fl-ne-florida-abortion-blocked-20220815-a6m4mcflzjehhfzhcdheiqhzdi-story.html:
Appeals court blocks teen’s abortion under Florida consent law

The assumption here is you need a certain level of maturity to have an abortion. You don't need a certain level of maturity to carry a pregnancy to term.
I can do one better...

From: Vice
It was at her first ultrasound that Nancy Davis said she learned there was no way the baby, about whom she’d once been so excited, would ever grow up. “It was an abnormal ultrasound, and they noticed the top of the baby’s head was missing"...Davis said she was 10 weeks into her pregnancy at the time of her ultrasound but is unable to get an abortion in her home state of Louisiana, thanks to the state’s near-total ban on the procedure.

Imagine, being at the low point in your life... finding that the child that you wanted will not survive. And then being told that you have to carry this deformed fetus in your body (with all the health complications and risks associated with any pregnancy) for months until birth, at which point the newborn will immediately die. A constant reminder of what is coming up.

And Republicans are fine with that.
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Old 17th August 2022, 09:40 AM   #1892
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Hey that headless fetus could have grown up to be the next Republican President.
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Old 17th August 2022, 03:25 PM   #1893
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From AP at https://apnews.com/article/abortion-health-north-carolina-government-and-politics-59ec5074eb84f16aa614276c7c3fa24d

Quote:
Judge reinstates North Carolina’s 20-week abortion ban
By HANNAH SCHOENBAUM


RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — Abortions in North Carolina are no longer legal after 20 weeks of pregnancy, a federal judge ruled Wednesday, eroding protections in one of the South’s few remaining safe havens for reproductive freedom.

U.S. District Judge William Osteen reinstated an unenforced 20-week abortion ban, with exceptions for urgent medical emergencies, after he said the June U.S. Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade erased the legal foundation for his 2019 ruling that placed an injunction on the 1973 state law.

His decision defies the recommendations of all named parties in the 2019 case, including doctors, district attorneys and the attorney general’s office, who earlier this month filed briefs requesting he let the injunction stand.

“Neither this court, nor the public, nor counsel, nor providers have the right to ignore the rule of law as determined by the Supreme Court,” wrote Osteen, who was appointed to the court by Republican President George W. Bush.

Unable to pass abortion restrictions that would survive Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper’s veto, the Republican General Assembly leaders urged Osteen to restore the ban in a July 27 friend-of-the-court brief after the state’s Democratic attorney general, an outspoken abortion rights supporter, rejected their demand that he bring the ban before a judge himself.

“I am encouraged that, although our attorney general has failed to do his duty, today we have a ruling that upholds the law,” House Speaker Tim Moore said, referring to North Carolina Attorney General Josh Stein.

Osteen’s ruling adds fuel to an already contentious midterm election year after the Supreme Court ruling propelled state-level politics into the spotlight. North Carolina Republicans in November will aim to clinch the five additional seats they need for a veto-proof supermajority in the state legislature as Democrats stave off their challenges to preserve Cooper’s power.

Republican lawmakers say a successful election season could open the door to further abortion restrictions when the General Assembly reconvenes early next year. Moore told reporters on July 26 that he would like to see the legislature consider banning abortions once an ultrasound first detects fetal cardiac activity — typically around six weeks after fertilization and before some patients know they’re pregnant.

[...]
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Old 17th August 2022, 03:28 PM   #1894
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One weapon to use:
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Old 17th August 2022, 04:36 PM   #1895
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One weapon to use:
Jury Nullification.
There are others.
Wolverines!
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Old 17th August 2022, 05:12 PM   #1896
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A 17 year old not mature enough to know whether she wants to give birth or not, but she's mature enough to drive.

A woman carrying a known at 10 weeks unviable fetus but can't have an abortion because "It's a BAAAAAAAABY!" Screw the poor woman's emotional/psychological health knowing she's got a baby with the top of its head gone in her for another 7 months.

Man, I really detest these jerks who think they have the right of dominion over a woman's body. If I wrote what I'd really like to call them, I'd be breaking several ISF rules.
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Old 17th August 2022, 05:22 PM   #1897
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MTG is what you get when a woman is not allowed to abort a fetus with half its head missing.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:29 PM   #1898
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
MTG is what you get when a woman is not allowed to abort a fetus with half its head missing.
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Old 18th August 2022, 01:40 AM   #1899
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As many conservative states have pointedly removed rape exemptions from existing abortion bans, or passed new bans pointedly excluding any such exemptions, the group's plan essentially can't fail so long as getting caught and going to prison for a few months for a given rape isn't considered too high a price in their risk/reward calculus.
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Old 18th August 2022, 02:03 AM   #1900
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I can do one better...

From: Vice
It was at her first ultrasound that Nancy Davis said she learned there was no way the baby, about whom she’d once been so excited, would ever grow up. “It was an abnormal ultrasound, and they noticed the top of the baby’s head was missing"...Davis said she was 10 weeks into her pregnancy at the time of her ultrasound but is unable to get an abortion in her home state of Louisiana, thanks to the state’s near-total ban on the procedure.

Imagine, being at the low point in your life... finding that the child that you wanted will not survive. And then being told that you have to carry this deformed fetus in your body (with all the health complications and risks associated with any pregnancy) for months until birth, at which point the newborn will immediately die. A constant reminder of what is coming up.

And Republicans are fine with that.
Unfortunately, Vice has a tendency to be sensationalistic.

The headline for that story is "Woman May Be Forced to Give Birth to a Headless Baby Because of an Abortion Ban". The word "May" seems to be doing the heavy work there because the body of the story goes on to say that:

Quote:
Earlier this month, the Louisiana Department of Health released a list of medical conditions that would make a pregnancy “medically futile” and clear the way for a pregnant person to get an abortion. At the time, medical professionals criticized the list as incomplete.
Well, if the list is incomplete, it can be added to. Also:
Quote:
that list does include a broad exception for other types of anomalies—as long as two physicians deem that anomaly valid.
It appears that in fact this sort of condition has been anticipated, even if not explicitly provided for, as long as two physicians sign off on it.
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Old 18th August 2022, 02:07 AM   #1901
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
MTG is what you get when a woman is not allowed to abort a fetus with half its head missing.
MTG stands for a lot of things apparently. I looked it up but couldn't determine what the underlying words are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTG
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Old 18th August 2022, 02:46 AM   #1902
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
MTG stands for a lot of things apparently. I looked it up but couldn't determine what the underlying words are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTG
Feigned ignorance much?
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Old 18th August 2022, 03:14 AM   #1903
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Unfortunately, Vice has a tendency to be sensationalistic.

The headline for that story is "Woman May Be Forced to Give Birth to a Headless Baby Because of an Abortion Ban". The word "May" seems to be doing the heavy work there because the body of the story goes on to say that:

Well, if the list is incomplete, it can be added to. Also:


It appears that in fact this sort of condition has been anticipated, even if not explicitly provided for, as long as two physicians sign off on it.
Yeah....no. The woman has been told she cannot have an abortion and the condition is not included in the "exception" list so Vice was not being "sensationalistic". From The Independent:

Quote:
A woman in Louisiana said that she has been told that she must carry a fetus without a skull and part of its head to term or travel out of state to receive an abortion.

Nancy Davis, a mother of one, is 13 weeks pregnant. Several weeks ago, an initial ultrasound revealed to Ms Davis that the fetus would have no chance of surviving — but because Louisiana’s abortion ban does not include an exception for acrania, the condition the fetus is suffering from, she cannot get a legal abortion in the state.

If Ms Davis does want to get an abortion, she will have to travel out of state to Florida. But time is running out for her to make a decision: Florida has banned abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy, giving Ms Davis a small window to schedule an appointment and arrange her travel should she decide to get the procedure.

Louisiana is among the Republican-led states that passed extremely restrictive abortion bans to take effect in a post-Roe v Wade landscape. The state has banned all abortions except for cases in which the mother’s life is in jeopardy or in some cases in which the fetus is nonviable.
Other women are also being denied an abortion when diagnosed as carrying non-viable fetuses:

Quote:
A New Orleans doctor, Valerie Williams, testified in an affidavit that she was prevented from giving a patient an abortion even though they were carrying a nonviable fetus. Ms Williams testified that the patient was “screaming — not from pain, but from the emotional trauma she was experiencing.”
The doctor also said the D&E would have taken 15 minutes instead of the hours long induced labor the woman was forced to undergo to deliver a non-viable fetus. She then had to endure more hours of agony because the placenta wouldn't deliver and she ended up hemorrhaging and losing a liter of blood.


Women are suffering horribly due to these disgusting laws brought to you by the Republican Party. Screw 'em.
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Old 18th August 2022, 05:20 AM   #1904
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Feigned ignorance much?
Believe it or not, I truly don't or at least didn't know what MTG stands for. I wasn't feigning anything. Now it's dawning on me that you meant Marjorie Taylor Green, but I thought it must be an acronym for some kind of rare medical condition.
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Old 18th August 2022, 05:26 AM   #1905
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Believe it or not, I truly don't or at least didn't know what MTG stands for. I wasn't feigning anything. Now it's dawning on me that you meant Marjorie Taylor Green, but I thought it must be an acronym for some kind of rare medical condition.
Close enough, except it's a mental condition, and unfortunately not rare.
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Old 18th August 2022, 07:03 AM   #1906
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Quote:
From: Vice
It was at her first ultrasound that Nancy Davis said she learned there was no way the baby, about whom she’d once been so excited, would ever grow up. “It was an abnormal ultrasound, and they noticed the top of the baby’s head was missing"...Davis said she was 10 weeks into her pregnancy at the time of her ultrasound but is unable to get an abortion in her home state of Louisiana, thanks to the state’s near-total ban on the procedure.

Imagine, being at the low point in your life... finding that the child that you wanted will not survive. And then being told that you have to carry this deformed fetus in your body (with all the health complications and risks associated with any pregnancy) for months until birth, at which point the newborn will immediately die. A constant reminder of what is coming up.

And Republicans are fine with that.
Unfortunately, Vice has a tendency to be sensationalistic.
As shown by another poster, the story has been repeated by other sources too.

Quote:
The headline for that story is "Woman May Be Forced to Give Birth to a Headless Baby Because of an Abortion Ban". The word "May" seems to be doing the heavy work there
I think the use of "may" is because of the possibility of travelling out of state for the procedure. (An option not affordable to many women, and even for the ones that can afford it, it is certainly the cause of more stress.)
Quote:
because the body of the story goes on to say that:
Earlier this month, the Louisiana Department of Health released a list of medical conditions that would make a pregnancy “medically futile” and clear the way for a pregnant person to get an abortion. At the time, medical professionals criticized the list as incomplete.

Well, if the list is incomplete, it can be added to.
The woman was told "no abortion for you... carry the child to term". So it appears that whatever exceptions exist in the ban, the woman didn't qualify.

Yes, the list CAN be added to. But it appears that it hasn't been. (And even if they do add exceptions, doctors may still be reluctant to perform abortions in cases like this because they don't want to be second guessed by an over-zealous prosecutor.)

And here's a question... why do these types of exceptions have to be ADDED TO the abortion law? Pro-choice advocates have been pointing to these types of situations for years. So why didn't the forced-birthers work that sort of thing into the law in the first place instead of waiting until after these sort of cases started popping up, then saying "ok, we'll try to fix things".
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Old 18th August 2022, 07:47 AM   #1907
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And here's a question... why do these types of exceptions have to be ADDED TO the abortion law? Pro-choice advocates have been pointing to these types of situations for years. So why didn't the forced-birthers work that sort of thing into the law in the first place instead of waiting until after these sort of cases started popping up, then saying "ok, we'll try to fix things".
Because the forced-birthers didn't expect to win, and haven't really been giving any thought to the laws they have been claiming to want for decades? And now they're rushing things through to cause as much pain and suffering to women as they can before their laws are inevitably struck down or gotten rid of by the sane people who get voted in in reaction to these laws?
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Old 18th August 2022, 07:51 AM   #1908
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And here's a question... why do these types of exceptions have to be ADDED TO the abortion law? Pro-choice advocates have been pointing to these types of situations for years. So why didn't the forced-birthers work that sort of thing into the law in the first place instead of waiting until after these sort of cases started popping up, then saying "ok, we'll try to fix things".
Because of the cruelty is the point.
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Old 18th August 2022, 08:24 AM   #1909
Warp12
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because of the cruelty is the point.

There is literally nothing to suggest that. The whole foundation of the talking point is the cruelty of abortion. I mean, it is amazing that some liberals can talk about how "cruel" pro-life advocates are, when unborn humans are literally being vacuumed (or worse) out of wombs...in numbers over half a million (US), annually.

Mind-blowing.
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Old 18th August 2022, 08:45 AM   #1910
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
There is literally nothing to suggest that. The whole foundation of the talking point is the cruelty of abortion. I mean, it is amazing that some liberals can talk about how "cruel" pro-life advocates are, when unborn humans are literally being vacuumed (or worse) out of wombs...in numbers over half a million (US), annually.

Mind-blowing.
I get that this is just an act meant to get a response, but you already know that your half a million fetuses don't even have a central nervous system or the ability to feel pain. Vaccuming (or worse ) something that isn't sentient, doesn't have nerves or pain receptors, and and so can't feel anything isn't cruelty.
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Old 18th August 2022, 08:51 AM   #1911
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Again the poor man's Jack Chick routine will be treated as anything other than a troll argument as soon the Right does literally one thing that actually protects the "lives" of the unborn they care so much about that also doesn't also by pure coincidence punish women.
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Old 18th August 2022, 09:09 AM   #1912
wareyin
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again the poor man's Jack Chick routine will be treated as anything other than a troll argument as soon the Right does literally one thing that actually protects the "lives" of the unborn they care so much about that also doesn't also by pure coincidence punish women.
Yeah, it helps to remember how recently people were pro Roe v Wade before they realized how useful* it is to be anti-Roe.





*Useful of course is dependant on what one's goals are
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Old 18th August 2022, 03:02 PM   #1913
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
As many conservative states have pointedly removed rape exemptions from existing abortion bans, or passed new bans pointedly excluding any such exemptions, the group's plan essentially can't fail so long as getting caught and going to prison for a few months for a given rape isn't considered too high a price in their risk/reward calculus.
[Citation Needed]

My recollection of the news since the Supreme Court ruled on Roe vs Wade is very few states have passed legislation outlawing abortion, and those that have done so have included a rape exception.
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Old 19th August 2022, 05:18 AM   #1914
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
[Citation Needed]

My recollection of the news since the Supreme Court ruled on Roe vs Wade is very few states have passed legislation outlawing abortion, and those that have done so have included a rape exception.
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checkin...s-rape-incest/

Quote:
Of those 22 states, 15 offer no exceptions for rape, incest, or both. Those states are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, West Virginia and Wisconsin.
Handy chart in the article as well.
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Old 19th August 2022, 10:25 AM   #1915
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
There is literally nothing to suggest that. The whole foundation of the talking point is the cruelty of abortion. I mean, it is amazing that some liberals can talk about how "cruel" pro-life advocates are, when unborn humans are literally being vacuumed (or worse) out of wombs...in numbers over half a million (US), annually.

Mind-blowing.

Yes, where would anyone ever get the idea that "pro-life" conservatives are cruel, awful people:
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Let these kids carry their rape babies; it's no skin off my backside.
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Old 19th August 2022, 11:13 AM   #1916
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
There is literally nothing to suggest that. The whole foundation of the talking point is the cruelty of abortion. I mean, it is amazing that some liberals can talk about how "cruel" pro-life advocates are, when unborn humans are literally being vacuumed (or worse) out of wombs...in numbers over half a million (US), annually.

Mind-blowing.
Unborn is key. They are not human beings. How exactly is it cruel? Real cruelty is putting unwanted children into a society that doesn't actually want them. A society that doesn’t want to provide needed water, food, housing, medicine, daycare, education etc.

Is it more cruel to scrape cells from a woman's uterus or force a woman to carry those cells and then deliver a baby and then raise it particularly if she's poor and possibly uneducated?

Are you willing to pay more in taxes to raise these children?

Also, don't forget. Reversing Roe v Wade will never stop those who have an unwanted pregnancy from terminating it. You're only demanding that poor women must remain pregnant.

Another time where the GOP says

"SCREW THE POOR."

THE REPUBLICAN MOTTO.
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Old 19th August 2022, 11:56 AM   #1917
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Believe it or not, I truly don't or at least didn't know what MTG stands for. I wasn't feigning anything. Now it's dawning on me that you meant Marjorie Taylor Green, but I thought it must be an acronym for some kind of rare medical condition.
I believe you but MTG is mentioned so often by those letters in ISF that I found it difficult to initially assume you didn't know. There's an entire thread dedicated to her stupidity.
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Old 19th August 2022, 12:08 PM   #1918
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I get that this is just an act meant to get a response, but you already know that your half a million fetuses don't even have a central nervous system or the ability to feel pain. Vaccuming (or worse ) something that isn't sentient, doesn't have nerves or pain receptors, and and so can't feel anything isn't cruelty.
Posts like Warp's are attempts to get people to emotionally equate non-sentient fetuses with cute, innocent, big eyed, gurgling babies.
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Old 19th August 2022, 01:07 PM   #1919
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Posts like Warp's are attempts to get people to emotionally equate non-sentient fetuses with cute, innocent, big eyed, gurgling babies.
Exactly.

You know what I really hate about this issue?

It is STUPID on every level. I mean really really stupid. The people who want to equate those cells as babies don't give a damn about babies unless they are white christian babies. And not really many of them.

So why do they want poor black and Hispanics to create more children? Do they want to pay more taxes to pay for everything that more people are going to require? Do they want more lines wherever they go? Do they want more traffic on the highway? Do they want more trash on the side of the road? Do they more pollution?

Seriously. Isn't 338 million people enough?
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Old 19th August 2022, 01:08 PM   #1920
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Posts like Warp's are attempts to get people to emotionally equate non-sentient fetuses with cute, innocent, big eyed, gurgling babies.
It's weird that conservatives think comparing a fetus to something they openly don't care about somehow makes liberals look bad.
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