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Tags abraham lincoln , kentucky , Rule of Law. , trial

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Old 17th August 2022, 05:02 PM   #121
theprestige
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
There was no jury, just a JP.
"The Jury Bell was rung, so there must have been a jury."
- Anonymous Lincoln Cabinet Member, probably
- Crazy Chainsaw, probably
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:03 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Devil's Advocate has found a citation of this particular anecdote, attributing the "pregnancy" metaphor to Squire Pate.
To clarify, in Townsend's account, Pate did not mention pregnancy or use any sort of metaphor or talk about absolutes in law or the nature of law other than telling Lincoln that it is important for people to understand the law. Pate merely says that the law prohibits taking someone "over" the river which he concludes meaning "across" the river from one side to the other. Because neither the complaint nor the evidence accused Lincoln of taking someone over the river in that sense, Pate determined that Lincoln was not guilty.

I find no account of the trial that mentions pregnancy. The story that Lincoln told Steward about earning his first dollar taking some people out to a steamer is a separate story that happened earlier, probably somewhere around New Orleans. The only thing close to the Dew book mentioned is a 47 page booklet published in 1989 titled "Shaping Our Society: Transportation and the Development of the Society and Culture of Hancock County" but I cannot find the text of that booklet.

Lincoln likely did not often (or perhaps ever) tell the tale of the trial because there appears to be no record of it prior to Townsend and there were many books written, especially soon after his death, particularly by people who knew Lincoln well that recount his life and reminiscences. None appear to mention the trial.

It appears to me that all accounts are likely traceable back to Townsend because they use similar words, details, and story structure. The further removed from Townsend, the more the tale tends to be abbreviated, less accurate, and morphs toward Lincoln making the brilliant and clever argument rather than relying on Pate's interpretation of the law.

If there is an account of the trial that mentions pregnancy, it is likely a much later and localized addition. The evidence strongly suggests that any such account would be a tale that grew in the telling along a telephone line leading back to Townsend, who derived the story from Pate's documents, rather than any separate evolutionary line deriving from an account told by Lincoln.

IF there is an account that mentions pregnancy, it is likely
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Old 18th August 2022, 05:47 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
To clarify, in Townsend's account, Pate did not mention pregnancy or use any sort of metaphor or talk about absolutes in law or the nature of law other than telling Lincoln that it is important for people to understand the law. Pate merely says that the law prohibits taking someone "over" the river which he concludes meaning "across" the river from one side to the other. Because neither the complaint nor the evidence accused Lincoln of taking someone over the river in that sense, Pate determined that Lincoln was not guilty.

I find no account of the trial that mentions pregnancy. The story that Lincoln told Steward about earning his first dollar taking some people out to a steamer is a separate story that happened earlier, probably somewhere around New Orleans. The only thing close to the Dew book mentioned is a 47 page booklet published in 1989 titled "Shaping Our Society: Transportation and the Development of the Society and Culture of Hancock County" but I cannot find the text of that booklet.

Lincoln likely did not often (or perhaps ever) tell the tale of the trial because there appears to be no record of it prior to Townsend and there were many books written, especially soon after his death, particularly by people who knew Lincoln well that recount his life and reminiscences. None appear to mention the trial.

It appears to me that all accounts are likely traceable back to Townsend because they use similar words, details, and story structure. The further removed from Townsend, the more the tale tends to be abbreviated, less accurate, and morphs toward Lincoln making the brilliant and clever argument rather than relying on Pate's interpretation of the law.

If there is an account of the trial that mentions pregnancy, it is likely a much later and localized addition. The evidence strongly suggests that any such account would be a tale that grew in the telling along a telephone line leading back to Townsend, who derived the story from Pate's documents, rather than any separate evolutionary line deriving from an account told by Lincoln.

IF there is an account that mentions pregnancy, it is likely
Lincoln didn't got to New Orleans until after the Trial, also it Appears Lincoln operated the Taylor's Ferry in Indiana before the Trial. The story told by Townsend can't be one hundred percent accurate, because Squire Pate held Court only on Law day, the rest of the time he ran his plantation.
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Old 18th August 2022, 05:59 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
To clarify, in Townsend's account, Pate did not mention pregnancy or use any sort of metaphor or talk about absolutes in law or the nature of law other than telling Lincoln that it is important for people to understand the law. Pate merely says that the law prohibits taking someone "over" the river which he concludes meaning "across" the river from one side to the other. Because neither the complaint nor the evidence accused Lincoln of taking someone over the river in that sense, Pate determined that Lincoln was not guilty.

I find no account of the trial that mentions pregnancy. The story that Lincoln told Steward about earning his first dollar taking some people out to a steamer is a separate story that happened earlier, probably somewhere around New Orleans. The only thing close to the Dew book mentioned is a 47 page booklet published in 1989 titled "Shaping Our Society: Transportation and the Development of the Society and Culture of Hancock County" but I cannot find the text of that booklet.

Lincoln likely did not often (or perhaps ever) tell the tale of the trial because there appears to be no record of it prior to Townsend and there were many books written, especially soon after his death, particularly by people who knew Lincoln well that recount his life and reminiscences. None appear to mention the trial.

It appears to me that all accounts are likely traceable back to Townsend because they use similar words, details, and story structure. The further removed from Townsend, the more the tale tends to be abbreviated, less accurate, and morphs toward Lincoln making the brilliant and clever argument rather than relying on Pate's interpretation of the law.

If there is an account of the trial that mentions pregnancy, it is likely a much later and localized addition. The evidence strongly suggests that any such account would be a tale that grew in the telling along a telephone line leading back to Townsend, who derived the story from Pate's documents, rather than any separate evolutionary line deriving from an account told by Lincoln.

IF there is an account that mentions pregnancy, it is likely
Another Acount of the Trial.
https://exploringyoungabelincoln.com...dill-brothers/
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Old 18th August 2022, 08:06 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"The Jury Bell was rung, so there must have been a jury."
- Anonymous Lincoln Cabinet Member, probably
- Crazy Chainsaw, probably
Secretary of the Treasury.
Also I don't believe as many of the Stories that state that Lincoln was Arrested and Tried on the Same day, that means Lincoln was Arrested on Law Day, when Squire Samuel Pate held court once a week.

That Means Lincoln had a one in 7 chance of being arrested on Law Day.
All the other days Squire Pate was a Business man. It makes sense that the Dills Brought him to Squire Pate's House and he was Remanded into Squire Pate's Coustody, until Law day, or he was Simply Sued and not Arrested at all.
My Family story passed down from my Dad was that the Current was too strong for Lincoln to paddle back to the Indiana side, so he paddled to the Kentucky side, after dropping the Men off on the steam boat, the Dills and Their Slaves Caught Young Lincoln and he agreed to go to Squire Pate's house. Squire Pate said they would have to wait to hear the case on Law Day, and that because several of the People Present Vouched for Abe, Squire Pate agreed to allow him to stay at Squre Pates house until Law day Rather than locked in the Town Jail. His Meals were brought to him by Squire Pates Niece, and that he did use the Pregnancy Argument in Court.
After reading the Law Books he was loaned by Squire Pate, Lincoln had Priviously work Running the Taylor Ferry and he was already well read not a country bumbkin at all.
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Old 18th August 2022, 08:40 AM   #126
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That is, unironically, a cool story, bro.

I just wish you had actual sources for some of the claims you're trying to make.
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Old 18th August 2022, 08:50 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That is, unironically, a cool story, bro.

I just wish you had actual sources for some of the claims you're trying to make.
My Great Grand Father Hauled Corn Meal from Hayden's Mill to the Squire Pate Plantation, my grandfather being a Quaker didn't make Whiskey like everyone else did. He also Hauled his Tobacco and Soygum molasses to Lewisport as well as Cannel coal.
My only hope now is as soon as I get a chance is too go down to the
Hancock Co. LIBRARY and see if I can find that old book.
Who knows My Great Great Grandfather might be the
Very source for the Pregnancy Argument, and It may now be lost to
History. An Eye witness account.

Last edited by Crazy Chainsaw; 18th August 2022 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 19th August 2022, 04:09 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That is, unironically, a cool story, bro.

I just wish you had actual sources for some of the claims you're trying to make.
Well I give up, you Must be Right, I mean it's not like I could call the Hancock Co Library and find out anything.

"SOCIAL AND Cultural History of Hancock County Kentucky.

By LEE A. DEW reference only, Lewisport Library.* 270 927 6760.
3 existing copies Does contain Pregnancy Quote.* As well as Squire Pates Teenage Niece being* Lincolns Jailer"

Oh and the Pregnancy Quote, predates Townsend, it had to have been told in my Family from my Grandfather before 1925, four years before, Townsend's Lincoln the Litigat. If what my Father told me about it being told to him from his father is true.
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Old 19th August 2022, 07:48 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
My Great Grand Father Hauled Corn Meal from Hayden's Mill to the Squire Pate Plantation, my grandfather being a Quaker didn't make Whiskey like everyone else did. He also Hauled his Tobacco and Soygum molasses to Lewisport as well as Cannel coal.
My only hope now is as soon as I get a chance is too go down to the
Hancock Co. LIBRARY and see if I can find that old book.
Who knows My Great Great Grandfather might be the
Very source for the Pregnancy Argument, and It may now be lost to
History. An Eye witness account.
Make your mind up!
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Old 19th August 2022, 08:16 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
My Great Grand Father Hauled Corn Meal from Hayden's Mill to the Squire Pate Plantation, my grandfather being a Quaker didn't make Whiskey like everyone else did. He also Hauled his Tobacco and Soygum molasses to Lewisport as well as Cannel coal.
My only hope now is as soon as I get a chance is too go down to the
Hancock Co. LIBRARY and see if I can find that old book.
Who knows My Great Great Grandfather might be the
Very source for the Pregnancy Argument, and It may now be lost to
History. An Eye witness account.
Which as we all know, is one of the weakest forms of evidence, especially with the passing of years. I mean, Lincoln was raised primarily in Indiana, and your relatives were from Kentucky, yes? And this trial was a quick affair with some unknown chump hustling a little cash with a rowboat. Your ancestor suddenly recalled verbatim that afternoon's trial decades later? I seriously doubt that. We all should.
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Old 19th August 2022, 09:13 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Which as we all know, is one of the weakest forms of evidence, especially with the passing of years. I mean, Lincoln was raised primarily in Indiana, and your relatives were from Kentucky, yes? And this trial was a quick affair with some unknown chump hustling a little cash with a rowboat. Your ancestor suddenly recalled verbatim that afternoon's trial decades later? I seriously doubt that. We all should.
All the Familes told the same story, every one, and all we have are eyewitness accounts, of the Trial, video Cameras were not around in 1827.
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Old 19th August 2022, 09:31 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Make your mind up!
I know the Linco,n Trial was mentioned in My Grand Fathers and Grand Mother's Obituaries in 1925, 4 years before Townsend, my Aunt used to have a copy of it framed in her house which was lost when her house burned down in the 1980s.

Townsend said in his letter the rumors are True, could he have found out about it though that Obituary, printed in a local paper?

After the house fire I looked for a copy in the county archives but couldn't find any the Microfilm had degraded from that time few articles left.
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Old 19th August 2022, 09:38 AM   #133
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Old 19th August 2022, 09:39 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Well I give up, you Must be Right, I mean it's not like I could call the Hancock Co Library and find out anything.

"SOCIAL AND Cultural History of Hancock County Kentucky.

By LEE A. DEW reference only, Lewisport Library.* 270 927 6760.
3 existing copies
The Hancock County Public Library website search tool can find no copies of that book anywhere in its catalog. Try it yourself, see if you get better results: https://hcplky.org/

The Library of Congress online catalog search seems similarly bereft: https://www.loc.gov/books/?q

Honestly at this point I'm a little surprised that a Kentucky historian named Lee A. Dew seems to have actually existed.

Quote:
Does contain Pregnancy Quote.* As well as Squire Pates Teenage Niece being* Lincolns Jailer"
What edition? What page numbers? What sources did Dew cite for these items?

Quote:
Oh and the Pregnancy Quote, predates Townsend, it had to have been told in my Family from my Grandfather before 1925, four years before, Townsend's Lincoln the Litigat. If what my Father told me about it being told to him from his father is true.
If you say so. Have you considered the possibility that it's one of those aphorisms that emerges in popular culture and is then attributed to some notable figure from history? This kind of misattribution happens all the time: https://style.mla.org/five-commonly-...ed-quotations/

Have you considered the possibility that your (great) grandfather just made it up himself?

---

Regarding the original topic of the thread: It's hard to imagine a jury acquitting someone based on a legal argument that doesn't actually seem to have ever been made. And as has already been pointed out, it's a piss-poor argument, all by itself. As a metaphor for the actual argument that likely was made - that halfway across the river isn't all the way across - it's kind of lame, in my opinion. And I'd have a very low opinion of any juror that couldn't understand the argument itself, but needed that metaphor to clarify it.
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Old 19th August 2022, 09:42 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
All the Familes told the same story, every one,
I'm confident that this is not true. I'm also confident that you have no reliable sources supporting this claim.

Quote:
and all we have are eyewitness accounts, of the Trial, video Cameras were not around in 1827.
Lack of evidence is not a license to believe without evidence.
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Old 19th August 2022, 09:54 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I know the Linco,n Trial was mentioned in My Grand Fathers and Grand Mother's Obituaries in 1925,
What publications? What were their names? Did their obituaries include the pregnancy quote?

Quote:
4 years before Townsend, my Aunt used to have a copy of it framed in her house which was lost when her house burned down in the 1980s.
The evidence you need was lost in a fire? Have you ever considered maybe not insisting on claims you can't support?

Quote:
Townsend said in his letter the rumors are True, could he have found out about it though that Obituary, printed in a local paper?
Without the text in question, it's impossible to say.

But refresh my memory: Which of Townsend's letters includes this claim? What rumors was he referring to? What evidence did he refer to, in support of the claim? To whom was he writing? Where is this letter currently archived? Is the archive open to the public? Is it open to researchers?

Quote:
After the house fire I looked for a copy in the county archives but couldn't find any the Microfilm had degraded from that time few articles left.
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Old 19th August 2022, 10:00 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Well I give up, you Must be Right, I mean it's not like I could call the Hancock Co Library and find out anything.

"SOCIAL AND Cultural History of Hancock County Kentucky.

By LEE A. DEW reference only, Lewisport Library.* 270 927 6760.
3 existing copies Does contain Pregnancy Quote.* As well as Squire Pates Teenage Niece being* Lincolns Jailer"
I don't know what it is that you are quoting, if anything. It appears you (or whatever you are citing) are confusing Dew's work with Charles A. Clinton's "A Social and Educational History of Hancock County, Kentucky" (a report prepared by the National Institute of Educational Experimental Schools Program of Washington, D.C., contract #OEC-0-72-5745, and reproduced in typed format by ABT Associates of Cambridge, Mass., September 25,1974).
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Old 19th August 2022, 10:03 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The Hancock County Public Library website search tool can find no copies of that book anywhere in its catalog. Try it yourself, see if you get better results: https://hcplky.org/

The Library of Congress online catalog search seems similarly bereft: https://www.loc.gov/books/?q

Honestly at this point I'm a little surprised that a Kentucky historian named Lee A. Dew seems to have actually existed.


What edition? What page numbers? What sources did Dew cite for these items?


If you say so. Have you considered the possibility that it's one of those aphorisms that emerges in popular culture and is then attributed to some notable figure from history? This kind of misattribution happens all the time: https://style.mla.org/five-commonly-...ed-quotations/

Have you considered the possibility that your (great) grandfather just made it up himself?

---

Regarding the original topic of the thread: It's hard to imagine a jury acquitting someone based on a legal argument that doesn't actually seem to have ever been made. And as has already been pointed out, it's a piss-poor argument, all by itself. As a metaphor for the actual argument that likely was made - that halfway across the river isn't all the way across - it's kind of lame, in my opinion. And I'd have a very low opinion of any juror that couldn't understand the argument itself, but needed that metaphor to clarify it.
You have too call the Libertarian and make an appointment, to see it, it's Reference only.

My Grandfather https://www.ancestry.ca/genealogy/re...ders-24-w4yk5j
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Old 19th August 2022, 10:22 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
You have too call the Libertarian and make an appointment, to see it, it's Reference only.

<totally irrelevant reference to your grandfather (stipulated) snipped>
Let me guess: The book is cataloged in Canada?

The fact that it's reference only shouldn't mean it cannot appear in the library's catalog, and cannot show up in an online catalog search. Shouldn't the website find the book in the catalog, and include in the search results that it's reference only?
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Old 19th August 2022, 10:55 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
You have too call the Libertarian and make an appointment, to see it, it's Reference only...
And if you had bothered to follow the prestige's link, you would have seen that the online catalogue includes works only available for reference.

ETA: for example
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Old 19th August 2022, 11:42 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Which as we all know, is one of the weakest forms of evidence, especially with the passing of years. I mean, Lincoln was raised primarily in Indiana, and your relatives were from Kentucky, yes? And this trial was a quick affair with some unknown chump hustling a little cash with a rowboat. Your ancestor suddenly recalled verbatim that afternoon's trial decades later? I seriously doubt that. We all should.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Let me guess: The book is cataloged in Canada?

The fact that it's reference only shouldn't mean it cannot appear in the library's catalog, and cannot show up in an online catalog search. Shouldn't the website find the book in the catalog, and include in the search results that it's reference only?
They told me over the Phone it's not in the Catalog Because it is Reference only, only for educational use.
But they do have the last 3 copies.
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Old 19th August 2022, 11:42 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
And if you had bothered to follow the prestige's link, you would have seen that the online catalogue includes works only available for reference.

ETA: for example
I was gonna mention that, but it wasn't clear to me whether the "Reference" collection was "reference only". I did note, however, that the "Collections" filter does not offer a "reference only" filter.

I was briefly tempted to dial "270 927 6760", which appears to be the correct public-facing phone number for HCPL, but it's really Crazy Chainsaw's due diligence, not mine. And also I'd feel like an idiot wasting the librarian's time trying to find a specific passage in a book that apparently doesn't exist.

This raises questions for me about whether CC actually called that number, and what the librarian who answered actually told him, about the book he was looking for and what was in it.
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Old 19th August 2022, 11:49 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I don't know what it is that you are quoting, if anything. It appears you (or whatever you are citing) are confusing Dew's work with Charles A. Clinton's "A Social and Educational History of Hancock County, Kentucky" (a report prepared by the National Institute of Educational Experimental Schools Program of Washington, D.C., contract #OEC-0-72-5745, and reproduced in typed format by ABT Associates of Cambridge, Mass., September 25,1974).
That's a different Book From Lee A. Dew's Social and Cultural History of Hancock County Kentucky.
I believe there is a picture of me in Charles A. Clinton's book taken of Me in Pellville Kentucky in Late 1973, or 1974, I remember them taking a picture of me for that book.
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Old 19th August 2022, 11:53 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was gonna mention that, but it wasn't clear to me whether the "Reference" collection was "reference only". I did note, however, that the "Collections" filter does not offer a "reference only" filter.

I was briefly tempted to dial "270 927 6760", which appears to be the correct public-facing phone number for HCPL, but it's really Crazy Chainsaw's due diligence, not mine. And also I'd feel like an idiot wasting the librarian's time trying to find a specific passage in a book that apparently doesn't exist.

This raises questions for me about whether CC actually called that number, and what the librarian who answered actually told him, about the book he was looking for and what was in it.
Would you exicute me without making one Phone call, to Verify my testimony or not?
My defense the only one I have is not everything is on the Internet.
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Old 19th August 2022, 11:54 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
They told me over the Phone it's not in the Catalog Because it is Reference only, only for educational use.
But they do have the last 3 copies.
That makes no sense. Why would any book in a library not be in the library's catalog? How are researchers supposed to know what reference materials are available to them for their work, if they're not listed in the catalog? Are they just supposed to war-dial every library in the tri-state area, and ask whoever answers the phone if they have any non-cataloged reference materials that match the topic of their research?

I'm pretty sure most libraries with reference-only materials publish lists of those materials so that interested parties know they exist and know where to go to look at them.*

I don't believe you.

I don't believe you called the library.

I don't believe they confirmed three copies of a book that doesn't exist.

I don't believe they told you their copy of the nonexistent book had passages that support your claim.

I don't believe they told you they did not catalog the book because it was "reference only".

---
*Tangentially: The San Francisco Museum of Modern Art catalogs its archives. These are "reference only" works that cannot be checked out, only examined in situ. But they're still publicly cataloged so people know where to go to look at them. You can get started here: https://www.sfmoma.org/library-archi.../archives-faq/
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Old 19th August 2022, 12:14 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Would you exicute me without making one Phone call, to Verify my testimony or not?
Nobody is going to "exicute" anyone. I just think you're fabulizing, based on the available evidence.

But I'll make you a deal: If you can find me an LOC or ISBN number, or a publisher's catalog reference, for this book, I will call that number and ask whoever answers if they have a copy.

Quote:
My defense the only one I have is not everything is on the Internet.
Right, right. Some of it is in Canada.
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Old 19th August 2022, 12:17 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
That's a different Book From Lee A. Dew's Social and Cultural History of Hancock County Kentucky.
Well yeah. That book appears to be real.
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Old 19th August 2022, 12:34 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
That's a different Book From Lee A. Dew's Social and Cultural History of Hancock County Kentucky.
I believe there is a picture of me in Charles A. Clinton's book taken of Me in Pellville Kentucky in Late 1973, or 1974, I remember them taking a picture of me for that book.
I find no information at all on the Dew book you mention.

Sorry, no picture of you in Clinton's manuscript. But I believe that is the manuscript you are looking for. It does indeed mention the trial and has the reference to pregnancy. There were a number of "A social and educational history of..." manuscripts written at the time as part of the Experimental Schools Program. Those were compiled into "Rural America: A Social and Educational History of Ten Communities" by Stephen Fitzsimmons in 1977. The manuscript is available on ERIC at:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED124340.pdf

The mention of the trial is on page 241.

"Lincoln demonstrated that he did not have a fool for a client. He was able to show that he had not set any persons "over" or "across" any river or creek "for reward or money." He had simply taken two men half-way cross the Ohio River, an action which did not violate any statute because in law, as in pregnancy, partial occurrences are not recognized."

It is not clear whether Clinton is making that comparison to pregnancy or whether he is saying that Lincoln made that comparison.
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Old 19th August 2022, 01:10 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That makes no sense. Why would any book in a library not be in the library's catalog? How are researchers supposed to know what reference materials are available to them for their work, if they're not listed in the catalog? Are they just supposed to war-dial every library in the tri-state area, and ask whoever answers the phone if they have any non-cataloged reference materials that match the topic of their research?

I'm pretty sure most libraries with reference-only materials publish lists of those materials so that interested parties know they exist and know where to go to look at them.*

I don't believe you.

I don't believe you called the library.

I don't believe they confirmed three copies of a book that doesn't exist.

I don't believe they told you their copy of the nonexistent book had passages that support your claim.

I don't believe they told you they did not catalog the book because it was "reference only".

---
*Tangentially: The San Francisco Museum of Modern Art catalogs its archives. These are "reference only" works that cannot be checked out, only examined in situ. But they're still publicly cataloged so people know where to go to look at them. You can get started here: https://www.sfmoma.org/library-archi.../archives-faq/
I am not the Libertarian why not call the number for the Library and find out?
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Old 19th August 2022, 01:23 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I find no information at all on the Dew book you mention.

Sorry, no picture of you in Clinton's manuscript. But I believe that is the manuscript you are looking for. It does indeed mention the trial and has the reference to pregnancy. There were a number of "A social and educational history of..." manuscripts written at the time as part of the Experimental Schools Program. Those were compiled into "Rural America: A Social and Educational History of Ten Communities" by Stephen Fitzsimmons in 1977. The manuscript is available on ERIC at:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED124340.pdf

The mention of the trial is on page 241.

"Lincoln demonstrated that he did not have a fool for a client. He was able to show that he had not set any persons "over" or "across" any river or creek "for reward or money." He had simply taken two men half-way cross the Ohio River, an action which did not violate any statute because in law, as in pregnancy, partial occurrences are not recognized."

It is not clear whether Clinton is making that comparison to pregnancy or whether he is saying that Lincoln made that comparison.
Nice work!

References for the chapter on Hancock County start on page 328 of the PDF (page 327 of the text).
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Old 19th August 2022, 01:25 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I am not the Libertarian why not call the number for the Library and find out?
I'm not going to waste the time time of the "libertarian" on what appears to be an obvious fable. Get me a Library of Congress or ISBN number, and I'll make the call.
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Old 19th August 2022, 01:30 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That makes no sense. Why would any book in a library not be in the library's catalog? How are researchers supposed to know what reference materials are available to them for their work, if they're not listed in the catalog? Are they just supposed to war-dial every library in the tri-state area, and ask whoever answers the phone if they have any non-cataloged reference materials that match the topic of their research?

I'm pretty sure most libraries with reference-only materials publish lists of those materials so that interested parties know they exist and know where to go to look at them.*

I don't believe you.

I don't believe you called the library.

I don't believe they confirmed three copies of a book that doesn't exist.

I don't believe they told you their copy of the nonexistent book had passages that support your claim.

I don't believe they told you they did not catalog the book because it was "reference only".

---
*Tangentially: The San Francisco Museum of Modern Art catalogs its archives. These are "reference only" works that cannot be checked out, only examined in situ. But they're still publicly cataloged so people know where to go to look at them. You can get started here: https://www.sfmoma.org/library-archi.../archives-faq/
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I find no information at all on the Dew book you mention.

Sorry, no picture of you in Clinton's manuscript. But I believe that is the manuscript you are looking for. It does indeed mention the trial and has the reference to pregnancy. There were a number of "A social and educational history of..." manuscripts written at the time as part of the Experimental Schools Program. Those were compiled into "Rural America: A Social and Educational History of Ten Communities" by Stephen Fitzsimmons in 1977. The manuscript is available on ERIC at:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED124340.pdf

The mention of the trial is on page 241.

"Lincoln demonstrated that he did not have a fool for a client. He was able to show that he had not set any persons "over" or "across" any river or creek "for reward or money." He had simply taken two men half-way cross the Ohio River, an action which did not violate any statute because in law, as in pregnancy, partial occurrences are not recognized."

It is not clear whether Clinton is making that comparison to pregnancy or whether he is saying that Lincoln made that comparison.
Lee A Dew attributed it too Lincoln, I assure you his book is at the Library at Hawesville and at Lewisport.
I get chance, I will go down and get the numbers and publisher for it.
In the Oral history Lincoln was the second Trial on that day Lewisport city court was first an the Adkins boy was tried for Breach of Promise to marry, by a saloon Girl from a front street Saloon. SQUIRE Pate told her to come back too court showing signs, of the afliction young Adkins Imposed upon her or in 9 Months with a baby, and he would Indeed preform the Marrage ceremony in his court. That he could not enforce the law with no evidence of the Crime.
Then Lincoln stood trial and applied that example to his case, before the Jury. He was making a statement too the Jury he thought would gain sympathy, but Squire Pate eventually decided his fate.
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Old 19th August 2022, 01:58 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Lee A Dew attributed it too Lincoln, I assure you his book is at the Library at Hawesville and at Lewisport.
And I assure you his book, on which your claim rests, does not exist.

Quote:
I get chance, I will go down and get the numbers and publisher for it.
You will not find it.

Quote:
In the Oral history Lincoln was the second Trial on that day Lewisport city court was first an the Adkins boy was tried for Breach of Promise to marry, by a saloon Girl from a front street Saloon. SQUIRE Pate told her to come back too court showing signs, of the afliction young Adkins Imposed upon her or in 9 Months with a baby, and he would Indeed preform the Marrage ceremony in his court. That he could not enforce the law with no evidence of the Crime.
Then Lincoln stood trial and applied that example to his case, before the Jury. He was making a statement too the Jury he thought would gain sympathy, but Squire Pate eventually decided his fate.
If oral history is all you have for a reference, just say so, and say that you don't blame us for not accepting it uncritically.
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Old 19th August 2022, 02:14 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That makes no sense. Why would any book in a library not be in the library's catalog? How are researchers supposed to know what reference materials are available to them for their work, if they're not listed in the catalog? Are they just supposed to war-dial every library in the tri-state area, and ask whoever answers the phone if they have any non-cataloged reference materials that match the topic of their research?

I'm pretty sure most libraries with reference-only materials publish lists of those materials so that interested parties know they exist and know where to go to look at them.*

I don't believe you.

I don't believe you called the library.

I don't believe they confirmed three copies of a book that doesn't exist.

I don't believe they told you their copy of the nonexistent book had passages that support your claim.

I don't believe they told you they did not catalog the book because it was "reference only".

---
*Tangentially: The San Francisco Museum of Modern Art catalogs its archives. These are "reference only" works that cannot be checked out, only examined in situ. But they're still publicly cataloged so people know where to go to look at them. You can get started here: https://www.sfmoma.org/library-archi.../archives-faq/
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And I assure you his book, on which your claim rests, does not exist.


You will not find it.


If oral history is all you have for a reference, just say so, and say that you don't blame us for not accepting it uncritically.
I will call the Libertarian Monday when I have time and get you the Number, if it even has one. But it is in the Library I just called yesterday.
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Old 19th August 2022, 02:25 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I will call the Libertarian Monday when I have time and get you the Number, if it even has one. But it is in the Library I just called yesterday.
I suspect your autocomplete is interfering with your communication. You have thrice said "Libertarian" when you mean "librarian".

I would be interested in any other information you can get on the book over the phone, such as publisher name, publication date or year, and exact title (and of course, if possible, ISBN, card catalog or reference number, etc.)
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Old 19th August 2022, 02:58 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I find no information at all on the Dew book you mention.

Sorry, no picture of you in Clinton's manuscript. But I believe that is the manuscript you are looking for. It does indeed mention the trial and has the reference to pregnancy. There were a number of "A social and educational history of..." manuscripts written at the time as part of the Experimental Schools Program. Those were compiled into "Rural America: A Social and Educational History of Ten Communities" by Stephen Fitzsimmons in 1977. The manuscript is available on ERIC at:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED124340.pdf

The mention of the trial is on page 241.

"Lincoln demonstrated that he did not have a fool for a client. He was able to show that he had not set any persons "over" or "across" any river or creek "for reward or money." He had simply taken two men half-way cross the Ohio River, an action which did not violate any statute because in law, as in pregnancy, partial occurrences are not recognized."

It is not clear whether Clinton is making that comparison to pregnancy or whether he is saying that Lincoln made that comparison.
I do want to thank you for looking this up, it Helps, Lee A Dew was Clinton's undergraduate helper in Reseach.
He went on too write his book in 77 as he reseached though old Newspaper Clippings an Journals.
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Old 19th August 2022, 03:14 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Lee A Dew was Clinton's undergraduate helper in Reseach.
That seems rather...odd. At what university was that?
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Old 19th August 2022, 03:27 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
That seems rather...odd. At what university was that?
I don't remember but I remember both of them working Together in the Archives in the Attic of the Hancock County court house going over the old court documents.
The Cupula of the court house was still accessible then from the attic. After the roof was rebuilt in 78 they sealed it off.
My cousin was Hancock County Sheriff Ralph Boling Later Federal.Marshal Boling appointed By Ronald Reagan. I used to go down too the Court house when I could and visit his office, before it was moved too the New administration Building in 1977.
The Quote I am looking for says, there is no (Half Measure) not no.half way, that's how I know that not the passage or book I am looking for.

(JUST realize I am.wrong about that, the person I am thinking about being a Graduation Student is Lee Drew not Lee Allen Dew.

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Old 19th August 2022, 05:25 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I suspect your autocomplete is interfering with your communication. You have thrice said "Libertarian" when you mean "librarian".

I would be interested in any other information you can get on the book over the phone, such as publisher name, publication date or year, and exact title (and of course, if possible, ISBN, card catalog or reference number, etc.)
Yes it is and I hate that.
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Old 19th August 2022, 05:27 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I suspect your autocomplete is interfering with your communication. You have thrice said "Libertarian" when you mean "librarian".

I would be interested in any other information you can get on the book over the phone, such as publisher name, publication date or year, and exact title (and of course, if possible, ISBN, card catalog or reference number, etc.)
I will get what I can but it definitely is not the book by Clinton no chapter on Josiah Blackford being Killed on Blackford Creek.
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