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Old 1st June 2022, 01:33 AM   #41
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
Trans Rights Advocates
Thank you.

Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
...and again all your examples fall into either male or female - an active SRY gene or not.
To you, the SRY gene is the one, sole determinant of biological sex? I think the literature, some of which I posted, a lot more of which almost certainly exists, disagrees with that. For one example, take a look at the SOX9 gene.

And sorry for pointing this out, but you clearly can't have looked at the sources I posted because I just worked out that one of the links is faulty. Here is the corrected link:

Sex Chromosome Abnormalities

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to review the literature. I have learned some new things today.

Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
URL="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355523&highlight=Intersex"]here is the appropriate thread to discuss such disorders of sex development [/url]
Then the mods can make the appropriate call.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Thank you.

To you, the SRY gene is the one, sole determinant of biological sex? I think the literature, some of which I posted, a lot more of which almost certainly exists, disagrees with that. For one example, take a look at the SOX9 gene.

And sorry for pointing this out, but you clearly can't have looked at the sources I posted because I just worked out that one of the links is faulty. Here is the corrected link:

Sex Chromosome Abnormalities
I read the links you posted and there are still only male or female, there is no third sex nor inbetween sex nor is sex a spectrum like your original article claimed



Quote:
Then the mods can make the appropriate call.
You were the one complaining this was off topic
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Old 1st June 2022, 07:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Wait - you think that all intersex conditions still fall into the gender binary? You're going to have to walk me through that logic. If they are all either male or female, then they're not intersex. Because that's what "intersex" means.

Intersex is a bit of a misnomer. The preferred term nowadays is "differences of sexual development" or DSD. I understand they would prefer "variations in sexual development" but the problem with that is that it resolves to "VSD" which is the usual abbrieviation of an anomaly of heart development (ventricular septal defect). So DSD it is.

I think the term "gender" should be avoided in this thread. We are not talking about feelings in people's heads here, we are talking about the physical reality of sex and sex organs.

People with DSDs are all either male or female like the rest of us. XXY is Klinefelter's syndrome, which is a condition of males. X0 is Turner's syndrome, which is a condition of females. And so on. In only about 0.2% of births is there any ambiguity at all as to which sex a child is, even though a DSD may be present. (Just as someone with a VSD actually has a heart.)

In the 0.2% of cases more specialised investigation including chromosome typing and hormone analyses are necessary to work it out, but it can be done. Always.

The so-called "hermaphrodite" situation, ovotesticular syndrome, is the nearest you can come to the fabled "intersex", but even there the person is not a third sex, and is not both sexes. Nobody has ever been born who can produce both sperm and ova. It's more a case of a male or a female infant having some anomalous tissue which has formed as early germinal material of the other sex.

There are only two sexes, everyone is either one or the other, and the vast majority of people with DSDs (particularly the ones where there is no doubt whatsoever which sex the person is) get quite ratty when activists co-opt their medical problems to declare that they are in some way not "real" men or women.

People with DSDs occasionally transition, though not at a higher rate than the rest of the population as far as I know. I met someone on Twitter the other day who said he was XXXY, which is a form of Klinefelter's, a condition of males, but he was living as a woman. He was extremely clear that there is no third sex and that his biological sex is male though.

On the other hand Erik Schinneger, who was raised as a girl in the 1950s in error, "transitioned" to his true biological sex of male once this was discovered when he was about 20.

So there are anomalies, but the anomalies are not a spectrum between the sexes, they are anomalies of one sex or the other, and there is no third sex and no third type of gamete.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:27 AM   #44
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The trans rights debate would be entirely different, a lot simpler, and a lot less controversial, if it were actually about intersex people and what they need and want. But it's not. So while Arth's claims about nonbinary sex may or may not be technically accurate, they're functionally irrelevant to what's actually being debated.

Unless Arth can bring his argument for nonbinary sex around to a practical application in the trans right debate, then technically correct is once again the worst kind of correct. Assuming it's even correct in the first place, which it probably isn't.

This thread was originally created to separate intersex questions from gender identity and public policy questions in The Other Thread. Arth's flogging of the intersex question was separated out from another thread in which gender and sex identity were being debated. So this is definitely the thread to flog the intersex question free of any real context, but I don't really see the point.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:44 AM   #45
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No, except people with DSDs are still pleading with trans advocates not to weaponise their medical problems as a gotcha in the trans debate, and even pleading with funding bodies to stop declaring that money given to the rainbow queer alphabet soup is money given to support people with DSDs, because actual support funds for DSD patients are drying up as the rainbow alphabet soup sucks up all the money.

The overwhelming majority of people who claim a trans identity are genotypically and phenotypically normal members of the sex they actually are. The existence of people with genotypical and/or phenotypical anomalies of the sexual organs has literally zero relevance to the trans debate. But still it continues. Some people have Klinefelter's syndrome, therefore I (a normal male) should be permitted to access all female-specific intimate spaces is a complete non-sequitur, but that doesn't stop them.

I think the loss of funding experienced by genuine DSD charities, and the problems people with DSDs are experiencing due to people who simply "identify" as having a DSD joining their support forums and even kicking out genuine DSD sufferers for talking about their particular condition or asking what diagnosis someone else has, are genuine issues too.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:49 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
One of the problems with the hard distinction between "sex" and "gender" is definitional. When you say that "sex is binary", what exactly are you talking about? Are you talking about chromosomal sex? Gonadal sex? Urogenital sex? Endocrinal sex? Neurological sex? There are variations to the binary distribution in all these cases.
No - response from a biologist

https://www.quackometer.net/blog/202...of-nature.html

Quote:
In 2015, Claire Ainsworth published an article “Sex Redefined – The idea of two sexes is simplistic. Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than that.” It is an exemplar of the ideological and denialist approach to sex.

The Ainsworth article goes along the well established specious set of arguments you will find in ‘gender studies’- it seeks to undermine our ability to talk about sex. That approach goes like this:
  • Say you are going to give the ‘old fashioned’ defintion of sex but actually set up a straw man. Instead of discussing how biologists define the sex of an organism in terms of the evolved development path it follows with respect to either gamete type (male or female), claim sex is a set of ‘sex characteristics’ like genitals, breasts and things like facial hair. Stick to humans.
  • Note how sex characteristics vary enormously between individuals and many overlap between what we call sexes. There is no clear dividing line, for example, in bone morphology in humans for example. Therefore, there is no clear diving line between the sexes.
  • Set up another false straw man of how karytypes are synonymous with sexes — that is XX/XY are defining of female and male rather than being one type of sex determining mechanism. Note how sex chromosomal aneuploidies mean sex cannot be binary. This is false and conflates atypical chromosome numbers with sexes.
  • Come to the conclusion that sex is too vague, subjective and unreliable a concept to classify humans.

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Old 1st June 2022, 05:10 PM   #47
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Every person you've ever met who succeeded—however marginally—in the neverending game of evolutionary fitness (i.e. sexual reproduction) managed to pass on their genes via one of exactly two possible pathways.

Our reproductive process is as binary as nature ever gets.
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Old 1st June 2022, 07:26 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Every person you've ever met who succeeded—however marginally—in the neverending game of evolutionary fitness (i.e. sexual reproduction) managed to pass on their genes via one of exactly two possible pathways.

Our reproductive process is as binary as nature ever gets.
That's so far from the point it's not even funny.

I can see that I'm unlikely to make any headway by posting science here, so I don't think I'll spend any more intellectual effort in this space. Thank you to the mods for moving this discussion to the appropriate thread.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:19 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are more, but two is a good first approximation.
So... how do you believe that babies get made?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:23 PM   #50
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I think he has bowed out. He thinks we're all too dim to understand the "science" he's posting.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ah, so you are someone who still preserves the outdated hard separation between "sex" and "gender". My mistake. I will modify my future statements accordingly.
Personally, I see "gender" as a synonym for sex, of which there are exactly two in the human species.

I understand that some people refer to "gender identity" as "gender", by which they mean either a) a person's resonance with social stereotypes of gender roles or b) dysphoria or c) a motte and bailey of the two as it fits their argument.

When "gender" is used to represent a person's internal perception of themselves it can mean anything at all, and there are as many "genders" as there are people on the planet.

When we're talking about the biology of sex, and the reality of sex, there are explicitly and exclusively two sexes among humans, and indeed among all mammals on earth.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Wait - you think that all intersex conditions still fall into the gender binary? You're going to have to walk me through that logic. If they are all either male or female, then they're not intersex. Because that's what "intersex" means.
"Intersex" is a horrible misnomer, and it does active damage to people with congenital conditions of sexual development. CCSDs are sex-specific conditions to start with. And each person is still only either male or female, even if they have some ambiguity in development.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:30 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Biological sex, whatever you are specifically referring to, falls into a bimodal distribution.
This is bad math, and you've been fed a falsehood, my friend. If you have a bimodal distribution when measuring a specific dependent variable... then it means that your data source contains two distinct populations, and you have failed to identify that categorical variable.

Spergs do not exist.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:32 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's so far from the point it's not even funny.
Sexual reproduction strikes me as fairly salient here, since it is the (binary) process which gives rise to sexual differences in the first place.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:39 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think the loss of funding experienced by genuine DSD charities, and the problems people with DSDs are experiencing due to people who simply "identify" as having a DSD joining their support forums and even kicking out genuine DSD sufferers for talking about their particular condition or asking what diagnosis someone else has, are genuine issues too.
Absolutely. I have a friend who has a very rare CCSD - XX/XY mosaic affecting the sexual organs. They have far more right to claim "intersex" than anyone on the planet, being as they are literally a mosaic of two different people.

They were sucked into the trans stuff when puberty hit and their development went very wonky. At first they felt validated... but in short order they felt extremely used and abused. They now run a detrans forum, which has a high proportion of people with CCSDs.

One of the challenges they identified is that people with CCSDs struggle to get appropriate medical care. They have been force-paired with transgender stuff, so they get referred to gender clinics and gender-related therapy, and they have a difficult time getting general practitioners to recognize that they have an actual, legitimate medical condition that needs actual, legitimate medical treatment. Their deleterious conditions are NOT an identity.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:45 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's so far from the point it's not even funny.
No, that is EXACTLY the point. That is what sex is. Sex is the means by which we as humans reproduce and pass on our genetic material. It's the means by which all sexually reproductive species survive. It is without question an evolutionary mechanism.

And in mammals it is explicitly and exclusively binary. There are variants of every single mammalian species that have reproductive anatomy that arranged around the production of large sessile gametes, and we call those mammals females of their species. There are variants of every single mammalian species whose reproductive anatomy is arranged around producing small motile gametes, and we call those males of their species.

There is no in-between sex, there is no third sex. There are only two. That's how reproduction works. That is the bedrock upon which our evolution as mammals rests. That is exactly what sex is.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I can see that I'm unlikely to make any headway by posting science here, so I don't think I'll spend any more intellectual effort in this space. Thank you to the mods for moving this discussion to the appropriate thread.
You won't make headway posting pseudoscience. Nor will you make headway by obfuscating real science.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think he has bowed out. He thinks we're all too dim to understand the "science" he's posting.
Yeah, I'm caught up now. It's a shame really, I still rather like arthwollipot as a person. But on this topic... well...
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Sexual reproduction strikes me as fairly salient here, since it is the (binary) process which gives rise to sexual differences in the first place.
Honestly, I don't know how you would even begin to talk about medical conditions that cause disorders of sexual development without talking about sex. It's like trying to talk about polydactyly while refusing to acknowledge that humans normally have five digits on each appendage. Or talking about male pattern baldness while refusing to admit that humans grow hair on their heads in the first place.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:07 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yeah, I'm caught up now. It's a shame really, I still rather like arthwollipot as a person. But on this topic... well...

It may be that he realises he's talking absolute nonsense but would rather just stop than admit it.

Lots of people talk sense on one topic and complete rubbish on another.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:08 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think he has bowed out. He thinks we're all too dim to understand the "science" he's posting.
More likely he realized that this thread, like all related threads on this forum will be dominated by the transphobes that, for some unknown reason, are obsessed with the topic.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:12 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
More likely he realized that this thread, like all related threads on this forum will be dominated by the transphobes that, for some unknown reason, are obsessed with the topic.
It's not obvious to me why this thread should be related to questions about transgender people who (by and large) don't have DSDs.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:22 PM   #62
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Let me see if I understand:

Arth's claim: Science says there are more than two sexes.

Actual science: There are exactly two sexes, with characteristic developmental failure modes that vary in their degree and consequences to sexual development.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:27 PM   #63
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That's about it.

The trans issue is a red herring as regards DSDs, but it's one the TRAs constantly introduce, so the water gets muddied. They have an argument that seems to go, "some people have anomalies in their sex chromosomes and some people have congenital malformations of their sex organs, therefore normal intact men with no anomalies of either chromosomes or sex organs should be allowed to claim the identity of "woman" and enter all women's intimate spaces. Hairy cock and balls and all." No it makes no sense, but it's them saying it.

So don't blame the messenger.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It's not obvious to me why this thread should be related to questions about transgender people who (by and large) don't have DSDs.
That's the whole point. The only reason DSDs come up in debate is in relation to the controversy about transgender accommodations in public policy. Whenever the trans-inclusionists get to a certain point in addressing the issues raised in that controversy, they fringe reset to an appeal to DSDs.

Every single thread on sex and gender in the past few months has been an attempt to try to get to the same controversy, piecemeal and context-free.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 02:12 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It's not obvious to me why this thread should be related to questions about transgender people who (by and large) don't have DSDs.
It shouldn't, but the main motivation for attempts to 'deconstruct' binary sex is the desire to replace it with self-declared gender identity. A secondary motivation is the desire to say that people can literally change sex because if sex is just constellation of characteristics then you can shift it by changing some of them. It is a case of Lysenkoism.

I was posting during the debacle on Science Based Medicine site last year (which on this topic has turned into another cesspit of narcissistic, morally-grandstanding bullies swaggering around calling everyone transphobic and a bigot if they dispute ideologically-motivated pseudoscience).

It just went on and on like this

'Sex is a spectrum/bimodal distribution'
'No it isn't.....(debunking)...
'Why do you keep going on about sex, you're obsessed, this is about gender not sex...blah blah blah..'

Then a few posts later 'Sex is a spectrum/bimodal distribution' again.


Then the moderator came up with a bizarre statement that the reason people claim sex is binary is that they want to force everyone to conform to gender roles (after having said that sex has nothing to do with gender).

It's at that point that you realise you are basically dealing with people in a cult.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 02:44 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
It's at that point that you realise you are basically dealing with people in a cult.
Which is a pretty good explanation of why there's been an increase in young people, who are still developing a mature sexuality, and still struggling to understand what all that means and implies for them, coming out trans and the like: They've been caught up in a cult.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 03:29 PM   #67
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I don't think the cult analogy is particularly on point or on topic.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 03:52 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think the cult analogy is particularly on point or on topic.
It's not an analogy. It's an attempt to accurately describe the social dynamics by which young people are being encouraged in increasing numbers to identify as a wide range of neo-genders and neo-sexualities. But yeah, probably not entirely on topic.

Though since Arth has abandoned the claim on which the thread was premised, and nobody else seems eager to take it up, I guess we're probably done for now, except for the jokes and asides.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 03:53 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not an analogy. It's an attempt to accurately describe the social dynamics by which young people are being encouraged in increasing numbers to identify as a wide range of neo-genders and neo-sexualities.
How does this non-analogy relate to the scientific issue of DSDs?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 04:19 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How does this non-analogy relate to the scientific issue of DSDs?
It doesn't. It's one of those "jokes and asides" that are ostensibly permitted in the MA. I'm done with it now, though.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:44 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think he has bowed out. He thinks we're all too dim to understand the "science" he's posting.
Well thank you for your charity.

No, it's more that I find these discussions emotionally draining, and my endurance for sustaining them drains incredibly quickly, especially when this starts to happen:

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
More likely he realized that this thread, like all related threads on this forum will be dominated by the transphobes that, for some unknown reason, are obsessed with the topic.
My tolerance for transphobic bigotry is low.

I'll see you in other threads.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 08:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
It shouldn't, but the main motivation for attempts to 'deconstruct' binary sex is the desire to replace it with self-declared gender identity. A secondary motivation is the desire to say that people can literally change sex because if sex is just constellation of characteristics then you can shift it by changing some of them. It is a case of Lysenkoism.

I was posting during the debacle on Science Based Medicine site last year (which on this topic has turned into another cesspit of narcissistic, morally-grandstanding bullies swaggering around calling everyone transphobic and a bigot if they dispute ideologically-motivated pseudoscience).

It just went on and on like this

'Sex is a spectrum/bimodal distribution'
'No it isn't.....(debunking)...
'Why do you keep going on about sex, you're obsessed, this is about gender not sex...blah blah blah..'

Then a few posts later 'Sex is a spectrum/bimodal distribution' again.


Then the moderator came up with a bizarre statement that the reason people claim sex is binary is that they want to force everyone to conform to gender roles (after having said that sex has nothing to do with gender).

It's at that point that you realise you are basically dealing with people in a cult.
Self-serving pretzel logic with no truth to it.

Yes, XY/XX is a binary (if you ignore the unknown percentage of XYY/XXXXX/other duplications). However, that is only a neat and clean delineation for the fertilized egg, the single cell. Once that cell starts dividing to eventually form an adult, with tons of cells of different specializations, all biologists know that biology is messy. Chemical gradients within the developing clump of cells interact with chemicals present in the womb and later the mother's blood direct the expression of the genotype into the externally visible phenotype, and any of a million ways that process can go imperfectly without destroying the developing life.

That phenotype of sex is a spectrum, from complete destruction of the system (as both sexes will develop to a point in each embryo) of the other sex's presence all the way through imperfect destruction of the other sexual system to both sexual setups existing in the same phenotype. We see each other's phenotypes, judge them as being more or less male or female, and build a gender framework of behaviors, abilities, and attitudes on top of what we've judged a individual's sex to be.

As to the snark towards that moderator, of course people who insist all others must conform to the currently binary gender dynamic are conflating sex and gender. Sex comes before gender, and gender uses sex as its foundation to build its entire structure onto, but gender has no control over sex, sexes exist without gender. We have created entire gender concepts based on the phenotype expression of sex, and there are people attempting to impose those gender constructs onto everyone whether they fit or not.

Consider the person who was born with no external genitalia and one internal testicle, genotype XY, who was administered estrogen at the proper age to force female secondary sex characteristics. By genes this person is male, and should be a man, though who all who physically observe see only a fully female woman. Which of the currently binary genders should be imposed on this individual? It is the very existence of fringe cases that can't be accounted for in these rigid structures that show how untenable the constructs are.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 08:15 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Self-serving pretzel logic with no truth to it.

Yes, XY/XX is a binary (if you ignore the unknown percentage of XYY/XXXXX/other duplications). However, that is only a neat and clean delineation for the fertilized egg, the single cell. Once that cell starts dividing to eventually form an adult, with tons of cells of different specializations, all biologists know that biology is messy. Chemical gradients within the developing clump of cells interact with chemicals present in the womb and later the mother's blood direct the expression of the genotype into the externally visible phenotype, and any of a million ways that process can go imperfectly without destroying the developing life.

That phenotype of sex is a spectrum, from complete destruction of the system (as both sexes will develop to a point in each embryo) of the other sex's presence all the way through imperfect destruction of the other sexual system to both sexual setups existing in the same phenotype. We see each other's phenotypes, judge them as being more or less male or female, and build a gender framework of behaviors, abilities, and attitudes on top of what we've judged a individual's sex to be.

As to the snark towards that moderator, of course people who insist all others must conform to the currently binary gender dynamic are conflating sex and gender. Sex comes before gender, and gender uses sex as its foundation to build its entire structure onto, but gender has no control over sex, sexes exist without gender. We have created entire gender concepts based on the phenotype expression of sex, and there are people attempting to impose those gender constructs onto everyone whether they fit or not.

Consider the person who was born with no external genitalia and one internal testicle, genotype XY, who was administered estrogen at the proper age to force female secondary sex characteristics. By genes this person is male, and should be a man, though who all who physically observe see only a fully female woman. Which of the currently binary genders should be imposed on this individual? It is the very existence of fringe cases that can't be accounted for in these rigid structures that show how untenable the constructs are.
None of this amounts to a third sex that does third sex things. It all boils down to two sexes that fail in various modes to do things their sex would do if it succeeded.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 10:14 PM   #74
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True enough, the presence of intersex is still within the binary gamete system and isn't a discrete contributor to it, but isn't the topic more about the phenotypic expression of the gametes and how it produces a extreme variety of appearances that aren't easily divided into two obviously different sexes?
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Old 3rd June 2022, 08:18 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
True enough, the presence of intersex is still within the binary gamete system and isn't a discrete contributor to it, but isn't the topic more about the phenotypic expression of the gametes and how it produces a extreme variety of appearances that aren't easily divided into two obviously different sexes?
There are two obviously different sexes. The vast majority of people develop in ways that make them easily divided into the two obviously different sexes. In some extreme edge cases the division becomes somewhat more difficult.

And, as always, this is about traducing some very rare edge cases into justification for claiming that transsexual identity really does transcend the biological binary of sex.
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Old 3rd June 2022, 08:50 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
True enough, the presence of intersex is still within the binary gamete system and isn't a discrete contributor to it, but isn't the topic more about the phenotypic expression of the gametes and how it produces a extreme variety of appearances that aren't easily divided into two obviously different sexes?

It doesn't do that though. The variety of appearances is very far from being "extreme" and the number of babies born who can't easily be recognised (correctly) on sight as being male or female is estimated at about 0.2%. Of course even that 0.2% can now be diagnosed by chromosome and hormone investigations without an enormous amount of trouble.
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Old 3rd June 2022, 08:51 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are two obviously different sexes. The vast majority of people develop in ways that make them easily divided into the two obviously different sexes. In some extreme edge cases the division becomes somewhat more difficult.

And, as always, this is about traducing some very rare edge cases into justification for claiming that transsexual identity really does transcend the biological binary of sex.

Precisely. I wish people would stop doing this, but it seems unstoppable.

No, the existence of rare DSD cases does not entitle you, a genetically and phenotypically normal male, to appropriate women's intimate spaces and categories.
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Old 3rd June 2022, 08:54 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well thank you for your charity.

No, it's more that I find these discussions emotionally draining, and my endurance for sustaining them drains incredibly quickly, especially when this starts to happen:

My tolerance for transphobic bigotry is low.

I'll see you in other threads.

I can imagine it's draining to be constantly defending the indefensible, yes.

Women don't have the luxury of saying "I'll bow out because I'm tired" when men are calling them names and insisting that other men must be allowed to invade all their intimate spaces.
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Old 3rd June 2022, 11:20 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My tolerance for transphobic bigotry is low.
I think you have an overly expansive concept of what constitutes transphobic bigotry. So large that it blinds you to the consequences of self-id and renders you unable to consider the impact to females in particular.
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Old 3rd June 2022, 11:26 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Self-serving pretzel logic with no truth to it.

Yes, XY/XX is a binary (if you ignore the unknown percentage of XYY/XXXXX/other duplications). However, that is only a neat and clean delineation for the fertilized egg, the single cell. Once that cell starts dividing to eventually form an adult, with tons of cells of different specializations, all biologists know that biology is messy. Chemical gradients within the developing clump of cells interact with chemicals present in the womb and later the mother's blood direct the expression of the genotype into the externally visible phenotype, and any of a million ways that process can go imperfectly without destroying the developing life.

That phenotype of sex is a spectrum, from complete destruction of the system (as both sexes will develop to a point in each embryo) of the other sex's presence all the way through imperfect destruction of the other sexual system to both sexual setups existing in the same phenotype. We see each other's phenotypes, judge them as being more or less male or female, and build a gender framework of behaviors, abilities, and attitudes on top of what we've judged a individual's sex to be.

As to the snark towards that moderator, of course people who insist all others must conform to the currently binary gender dynamic are conflating sex and gender. Sex comes before gender, and gender uses sex as its foundation to build its entire structure onto, but gender has no control over sex, sexes exist without gender. We have created entire gender concepts based on the phenotype expression of sex, and there are people attempting to impose those gender constructs onto everyone whether they fit or not.

Consider the person who was born with no external genitalia and one internal testicle, genotype XY, who was administered estrogen at the proper age to force female secondary sex characteristics. By genes this person is male, and should be a man, though who all who physically observe see only a fully female woman. Which of the currently binary genders should be imposed on this individual? It is the very existence of fringe cases that can't be accounted for in these rigid structures that show how untenable the constructs are.
OMG, trees are super duper complex, there are all these different cells and leaves and roots and they all do different things and they're affected by a ton of environmental and genetic factors that can cause all sorts of variations in the final outcome... THEREFORE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TREE AND GRASS IS A COMPLETE MYSTERY AND IT'S REALLY A SPECTRUM.

Yeah, doesn't follow.

Sex is the fundamental means by which we reproduce, and we do so with EXACTLY two sexes. Everything else you're adding on here is obfuscation dressed up with fancy words and a lot of wishes.

The fact that sometimes, in extremely rare cases, development goes awry does NOT in any way at all make sex nonbinary. There is no third gamete, there is no in-between gamete. There are eggs and there are sperm, and that is how it works. There are bodies that have developed along the pathway that normally produces eggs, and there are bodies that have developed along the pathway that normally produces sperm.

Kindly stop using people with real deleterious medical conditions as pawns in your gender-woo fairly tale.
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