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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 11th June 2022, 07:25 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
We we have different definitions of harsh then. Depriving these swimmers of victory and denying them a place in a team (and if they make the Olympic team, even a livelihood) to make Thomas feel better is harsh in my view.
We probably do. It's not really worth quibbling about, since we both think they're being treated unjustly.
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Old 11th June 2022, 07:26 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I think it's unfair to expect them to compete against Thomas. I don't think they're being treated harshly. I don't think anybody is sending death threats to them.
I think the ones that have actually spoken up about it have received at least a few death threats.
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Old 11th June 2022, 07:26 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I mean, I'm aware of why they're speaking out anonymously. But "I have to speak out anonymously or I might receive death threats" is still quite distinct from "I am receiving death threats."
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Old 11th June 2022, 07:34 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I mean, I'm aware of why they're speaking out anonymously. But "I have to speak out anonymously or I might receive death threats" is still quite distinct from "I am receiving death threats."
It seems likely that whomever chooses to deanonymize is going to face the kill TERFs brigade.
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Old 11th June 2022, 07:35 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
How do you expect to know that, other than to take her word for it? You don't have access to her medical history, and you shouldn't.
One thing we can do is look at the medical approach to gender self-ID generally. There are all kinds of medically-recognized conditions, for which the typically-prescribed treatments are well known and widely accepted by medical professionals. Transsexual competition in sports is not such a treatment, as far as I know.

Nor has the NCAA made diagnosis a prerequisite for transitioning to women's sports, as far as I know.

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In any case, the idea that you, rather than she, should be caretaker of her well-being is incredibly paternalistic.
We take an interest in the well-being of others all the time, both as individuals and groups. OSHA exists. Seatbelt laws exist. More to the point, medical malpractice laws and medical ethics boards exist. I didn't figure you for a libertarian extremist.

The negative impact to actual women from trans-privileging policies has also been extensively addressed by others in this thread and elsewhere. I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks it's somehow wrong to be concerned about the well-being of women athletes and women in general.

Okay, maybe not the only one. There seems to be a lot of "women's well-being doesn't matter" going around on the trans-privileging side of the debate.
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Old 11th June 2022, 07:50 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One thing we can do is look at the medical approach to gender self-ID generally. There are all kinds of medically-recognized conditions, for which the typically-prescribed treatments are well known and widely accepted by medical professionals. Transsexual competition in sports is not such a treatment, as far as I know.
This is just silly. Nobody's arguing that it is.

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Nor has the NCAA made diagnosis a prerequisite for transitioning to women's sports, as far as I know.
Which is precisely why we can't know for certain, and have to take her word for it.

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We take an interest in the well-being of others all the time, both as individuals and groups. OSHA exists. Seatbelt laws exist. More to the point, medical malpractice laws and medical ethics boards exist. I didn't figure you for a libertarian extremist.
You'll notice that I said "caretaker of her well-being". As in, guardian. Obviously we all have an interest in her well-being, but she's the primary decision-maker.

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The negative impact to actual women from trans-privileging policies has also been extensively addressed by others in this thread and elsewhere. I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks it's somehow wrong to be concerned about the well-being of women athletes and women in general.
Where on earth did you get the idea that I'm not concerned about it? I'm just saying we don't have to be cruel to her. Because we don't.

Quote:
Okay, maybe not the only one. There seems to be a lot of "women's well-being doesn't matter" going around on the trans-privileging side of the debate.
The standard strawman that has made this thread so toxic.
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Old 11th June 2022, 08:03 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It seems likely that whomever chooses to deanonymize is going to face the kill TERFs brigade.
I'm aware of the existence of extremists on both the pro- and anti-trans side. I'm still unclear on why this has anything to do with the idea that we shouldn't be cruel to her.
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Old 11th June 2022, 08:39 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Major sporting organizations like the IOC & NCAA have access to the resources to hire sports scientists, endocrinologists, and others with the subject matter expertise to put together studies like this one. Individual athletes don't.
You donít need a scientific study to recognize Lia has an unfair advantage. And Lia would have to be dumber than rocks to not recognize that advantage. I donít think Lia is dumber than rocks.
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Old 11th June 2022, 08:45 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
One of the definitions of "punish" is to treat someone in an unfairly harsh way, and this is the sense I meant.

She's getting death threats (of course), and theprestige thinks she's a scumbag, not because he thinks she's cheating, but because she degraded her performance (?).
Lia is a scumbag. Sheís ruining the college athletic experience for a whole lot of women, out of selfishness. That doesnít justify death threats, I am opposed to that and I donít think anyone else in this thread thinks thatís ok either, but it absolutely justifies strong criticism.
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Old 11th June 2022, 08:52 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Lia is a scumbag. Sheís ruining the college athletic experience for a whole lot of women, out of selfishness. That doesnít justify death threats, I am opposed to that and I donít think anyone else in this thread thinks thatís ok either, but it absolutely justifies strong criticism.
What does this have to do with calling her a scumbag for degrading her performance?

Criticize her all you want, just try to be vaguely coherent about it.
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Old 11th June 2022, 09:12 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
What does this have to do with calling her a scumbag for degrading her performance?

Criticize her all you want, just try to be vaguely coherent about it.
Because Thomas is gaming the system by swimming more slowly then they can and still winning. Thomas knows that winning by more than a lap will bring attention attention to the undoubted advantage they have and put more attention to the unfairness of the situation.

Thomas is aiming for the next Olympics and it doesn't matter who else misses out. Getting there and winning a gold medal will lead to fortune. There are a couple of problems here though. I think FINA and the IOC will gain control of their senses and not allow someone who has gone through puberty as a male to compete. Secondly, I don't think Thomas will beat the (real) women from Australia.
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Old 11th June 2022, 09:40 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Because Thomas is gaming the system by swimming more slowly then they can and still winning. Thomas knows that winning by more than a lap will bring attention attention to the undoubted advantage they have and put more attention to the unfairness of the situation.
Haven't heard this claim before. What's the evidence for it?

Anyway, theprestige was specifically talking about downgrading her body. By taking testosterone suppressors.
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Old 11th June 2022, 09:56 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Haven't heard this claim before. What's the evidence for it?

Anyway, theprestige was specifically talking about downgrading her body. By taking testosterone suppressors.
Well not conclusive but credible. Thomas swam much slower than their best to allow a transman to win.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/21/penn-s...hlete-to-lose/

Quote:
A biological female member of the University of Pennsylvania women’s swimming team said she believes her transgender teammate Lia Thomas colluded with a Yale transgender athlete so she could lose to prove a point, according to a report.

Yalie Iszac Henig, who is transitioning from female to male, beat Thomas in both the women’s 100- and 400-yard freestyle races during an Ivy League swim meet on Jan. 8.
ETA, losing, but still swimming slower. Sorry for my mis-recollection.
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Old 11th June 2022, 10:23 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I don't think males should be competing against females without first assessing their performance as individuals and ensuring it's within the range of female performance.
So it's OK for males to compete as long as they come second?

I think you need a better policy than that.
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Old 11th June 2022, 10:29 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Haven't heard this claim before. What's the evidence for it?
Analysis of her split times

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With Thomas producing splits of 52.14 and 50.98, it is clear that the Penn swimmer held back during the front half of the race and only shifted into a higher gear down the stretch. Thomasí best for the season is her 1:41.93 outing from early December and it is highly likely that Thomas is sandbagging her races in order to avoid the additional attention she would garner with faster times.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.co...-holding-back/
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Old 11th June 2022, 10:31 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Thank you. A more detailed link than mine.
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Old 11th June 2022, 11:00 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
So it's OK for males to compete as long as they come second?

I think you need a better policy than that.
I'm not saying "in any given race." I'm imagining there's some way to measure performance more generally. In Thomas' case, looking at his record in the men's division would be informative.

But of course you're probably not on the men's team at all if you can't beat the performance of women in most sports, and that's not an option where someone has no record in the men's division.

Glad this isn't my job.
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Old 12th June 2022, 03:05 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I'm not saying "in any given race." I'm imagining there's some way to measure performance more generally. In Thomas' case, looking at his record in the men's division would be informative.
Strangely enough the top ranked article when I searched says:

Quote:
During the last season Thomas competed as a member of the Penn men’s team, which was 2018-19, she ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. As her career at Penn wrapped, she moved to fifth, first and eighth in those respective events on the women’s deck.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.co...of-lia-thomas/

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Glad this isn't my job.
Women's sports is NOT a grey area where there are difficult decisions; male advantage is just too big.

The only reason Lia Thomas is competing is because of a decision to prioritise Inclusion over Fairness - see the discussions in the Sports Councils reports I linked to earlier.

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Old 12th June 2022, 04:58 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I'm aware of the existence of extremists on both the pro- and anti-trans side. I'm still unclear on why this has anything to do with the idea that we shouldn't be cruel to her.
The whole situation is inherently cruel to her.

The upstanding people of the NCAA and Ivy League told her that she'd be accepted as a woman in every way, many of them reciting the mantra which has gained such currency in progressive spaces.

Now it turns out that many of her competitors and even some her teammates have misgivings about whether it's fair to put Lia in the pool with athletes who've never had their bodies altered by testosterone.
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Old 12th June 2022, 05:37 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Strangely enough the top ranked article when I searched says:
Her placement as a man doesn't really tell us much without comparing her times to those of women. Karsten Braasch, ranked 203rd in the world, handily beat both Williams sisters, and claims to have been playing like a top 600 player to keep it fun.

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Women's sports is NOT a grey area where there are difficult decisions; male advantage is just too big.
As all of those advantages stem from having gone through male puberty, and at least some transwomen haven't, I think it's still something of a gray area. Even if they completely banned transwomen from the women's division, there's still the very similar issue of women with DSDs. "If you've gone through male puberty, no dice" is probably the best policy, but it raises the issue of how to tell if someone has gone through male puberty without bringing back unpopular and invasive inspections. One possibility might be to train a classifier to distinguish "male" and "female" faces/bodies, but that's not entirely accurate, particularly for non-white faces, and feminizing facial surgery is a thing.

And the problem gets worse in high school athletics, which in many ways I think of as being more important, because there are fewer resources.

I dunno, seems like a genuine difficulty to me no matter how you prioritize fairness and inclusivity.

Still glad it's not my job.

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Old 12th June 2022, 05:42 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The whole situation is inherently cruel to her.
I agree, and that's why the instability of rules is really a problem. It's an even bigger problem for someone who transitions early, participates in good faith, only to learn that they'll be disqualified due to a rule change. They should really pick an evidence-based policy and stick with it.

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Old 12th June 2022, 06:27 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
It's an even bigger problem for someone who transitions early, participates in good faith, only to learn that they'll be disqualified due to a rule change.
I've yet to hear of this happening to anyone, but consider also the young women who trained for a decade and a half (in good faith) only to find that a rules change has put them in with male-bodied swimmers like Thomas for the first time in their competitive career.
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Old 12th June 2022, 06:30 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've yet to hear of this happening to anyone, but consider also the young women who trained for a decade and a half (in good faith) only to find that a rules change has put them in with male-bodied swimmers like Thomas for the first time in their competitive career.
Of course.
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Old 12th June 2022, 06:58 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
This is just silly. Nobody's arguing that it is.
The whole idea of men needing to compete athletically as women is silly. The whole idea of men being entitled to compete athletically as women is silly. It has no basis in science or medicine. It has no basis in ethics. It's harmful to actual women. It's harmful to people who are actually afflicted with gender dysphoria. In fact I wouldn't so much say it's silly. I'd say it's perverse.

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Which is precisely why we can't know for certain, and have to take her word for it.
A rationale for justifying her transition to women's sports is completely absent from the equation. That's my point.

Quote:
You'll notice that I said "caretaker of her well-being". As in, guardian. Obviously we all have an interest in her well-being, but she's the primary decision-maker.
I have no idea how you got down this particular rabbit hole of misconception, but I'll leave you to it. Nobody was claiming or trying to be her caretaker.

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Where on earth did you get the idea that I'm not concerned about it? I'm just saying we don't have to be cruel to her. Because we don't.
Because you keep eliding it. What cruelty, exactly, are you talking about?

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The standard strawman that has made this thread so toxic.
Not a strawman. The objective result of trans-inclusionist policies and policy proposals. Like I said, this has been extensively addressed in this thread. And trans-inclusionists keep ignoring or dismissing it. As you are doing right now. That's where on Earth I get the idea you're not concerned about it. Right here in this thread is where.
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Old 12th June 2022, 06:58 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I'm aware of the existence of extremists on both the pro- and anti-trans side. I'm still unclear on why this has anything to do with the idea that we shouldn't be cruel to her.
What specific cruelty, exactly, are you arguing against here?
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Old 12th June 2022, 07:00 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Her placement as a man doesn't really tell us much without comparing her times to those of women. Karsten Braasch, ranked 203rd in the world, handily beat both Williams sisters, and claims to have been playing like a top 600 player to keep it fun.
This is incoherent. Race times are objective measures. You can compare her times to those of women. Go ahead. Reach your own conclusions.
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Old 12th June 2022, 07:09 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What specific cruelty, exactly, are you arguing against here?
There is none. All we are seeing the selfish insistence of a few to compete in sports in an unfair way. Yes this is not a big deal to some, but it is to me.
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Old 12th June 2022, 07:27 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It has no basis in ethics.
It does have such a basis--maximizing opportunity.

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It's harmful to actual women. It's harmful to people who are actually afflicted with gender dysphoria. In fact I wouldn't so much say it's silly. I'd say it's perverse.
It needn't be harmful to women, and I'm at a loss as to how it's harmful to people with "actual" gender dysphoria.

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I have no idea how you got down this particular rabbit hole of misconception, but I'll leave you to it. Nobody was claiming or trying to be her caretaker.
If you're calling someone a scumbag for attending to her own well-being rather than maximizing her performance, I don't know what else to call it.

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Because you keep eliding it. What cruelty, exactly, are you talking about?
I don't have any interest in relitigating this for people with short attention spans.

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Not a strawman. The objective result of trans-inclusionist policies and policy proposals. Like I said, this has been extensively addressed in this thread. And trans-inclusionists keep ignoring or dismissing it. As you are doing right now. That's where on Earth I get the idea you're not concerned about it. Right here in this thread is where.
It is a strawman. Nobody has said anything remotely like "women's well-being doesn't matter", and that isn't necessarily the consequence of trans-inclusive policies.

Women are significantly more likely than men to support trans rights across the board, including on the issue of inclusion in sports. I find that difficult to square with the idea that this problem results from disregarding women's interests, at least not without adopting the attitude that the poor dears should be protected from themselves.

Quote:
This is incoherent. Race times are objective measures. You can compare her times to those of women. Go ahead. Reach your own conclusions.
Me: We should look at race times rather than placements.
You: No, we should look at race times!
Me: I have better things to do with my life.
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Old 12th June 2022, 08:09 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
It does have such a basis--maximizing opportunity.
It does not maximize opportunity. It funges opportunity from one group to another. Repeated requests for an ethical justification for this funging have been met with silence, or hand-waving, or (in this case) empty equivocation.

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It needn't be harmful to women,
Men transcending sex segregation in sports is necessarily harmful to women. The harm is unavoidable.

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and I'm at a loss as to how it's harmful to people with "actual" gender dysphoria.
Any time someone adopts the identity of a medical condition they don't have, and demands accommodations based on that identity, at the expense of others, it's harmful to people who actually do suffer from that condition, and are looking to their society for a sane and humanitarian response to their actual needs.

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If you're calling someone a scumbag for attending to her own well-being rather than maximizing her performance, I don't know what else to call it.
You're begging the question that this is necessary for Thomas's well-being.

My entire line of inquiry about medical diagnosis and prescribed treatment is about whether there is any good reason to believe that any of this is necessary to Thomas's well-being, let alone so necessary that it trumps the well-being that is to be lost by those disadvantged by her choices.

Women are losing out in order to accommodate Thomas. What's the justification for that? We know it's not medical.

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I don't have any interest in relitigating this for people with short attention spans.
Are you talking about this post?

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It is a strawman. Nobody has said anything remotely like "women's well-being doesn't matter", and that isn't necessarily the consequence of trans-inclusive policies.
That women's well-being matters substantially less than trans-inclusion is a necessary result of the trans-inclusionist policies being proposed and enacted. Not only is it obvious just from examination of the policies in theory, but we actually observe it in practice wherever these policies are put into action.

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Women are significantly more likely than men to support trans rights across the board, including on the issue of inclusion in sports. I find that difficult to square with the idea that this problem results from disregarding women's interests, at least not without adopting the attitude that the poor dears should be protected from themselves.
Appeal to popularity. There are women in this thread who do not support the trans rights under discussion here. They have made rational arguments for why they do not support this. Can you address those arguments?
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Old 12th June 2022, 11:14 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Her placement as a man doesn't really tell us much without comparing her times to those of women.
Had you clicked on the link you would have found more information.

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In the 500 freestyle, Thomas’ time of 4:33.24 from her NCAA-title swim handed her the fastest time in the nation by more than a second over Arizona State’s Emma Nordin (4:34.87). Additionally, Thomas’ difference from her personal best with the Penn men’s program was just 6%, as opposed to the typical 10% to 11% difference generally seen between men and women.
There is plenty of analysis on this available, as well as athletes with DSDs, and the science is clear. I'm not sure why you are finding it so difficult.

Last edited by Aber; 12th June 2022 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 12th June 2022, 11:23 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
I'm not sure why you are finding it so difficult.
It's a valiant effort at multi-spectrum needle-threading. Can't quite deny facts like science and observed outcomes, can't quite just say that transwomen aren't women. Therefore trying to find a suitably-obfuscated middle ground where Lia Thomas isn't in the wrong, but also isn't a woman.
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Old 12th June 2022, 12:52 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It does not maximize opportunity. It funges opportunity from one group to another. Repeated requests for an ethical justification for this funging have been met with silence, or hand-waving, or (in this case) empty equivocation.
The ethical justification is that sex is a morally irrelevant characteristic in the first place, which is why we no longer tolerate sex discrimination. It's unclear why someone who does not have an untenable competitive advantage over women should not be competing with women.

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Men transcending sex segregation in sports is necessarily harmful to women. The harm is unavoidable.
I don't particularly think this argument works. It's harmful to women in more or less the same way that anti-discrimination in hiring laws were/are harmful to white people--losing opportunities that you didn't deserve, when competing on a level playing field, is not something I consider a harm. The only question is whether it is a level playing field.

I don't see a strong case for sex segregation in sports. Having an open A division and a B division with sex/gender-neutral criteria for participation would be more just. This would also neatly dispose of the "I'm a woman so I should compete in the women's division" argument.

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You're begging the question that this is necessary for Thomas's well-being.
No, I'm just taking her word for it that she has gender dysphoria.

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My entire line of inquiry about medical diagnosis and prescribed treatment is about whether there is any good reason to believe that any of this is necessary to Thomas's well-being, let alone so necessary that it trumps the well-being that is to be lost by those disadvantged by her choices.
The research on the benefits of hormone therapy to those with gender dysphoria seems to provide such reasons, yes.

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That women's well-being matters substantially less than trans-inclusion is a necessary result of the trans-inclusionist policies being proposed and enacted. Not only is it obvious just from examination of the policies in theory, but we actually observe it in practice wherever these policies are put into action.
No, that doesn't necessary follow. Trans-inclusionist policies run the gamut, and need not be blind to relevant differences. Just as women-inclusionist policies need not be.

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Appeal to popularity. There are women in this thread who do not support the trans rights under discussion here. They have made rational arguments for why they do not support this. Can you address those arguments?
No, not an appeal to popularity. A reminder that the "pro-trans" side is disproportionately female, and telling them that they're not considering their own interests is inescapably paternalistic.
.

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Old 12th June 2022, 12:56 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Had you clicked on the link you would have found more information.
I mean, I don't think we need much analysis in Thomas' case. It's clear that nobody did this prior to allowing her to compete, and it's also clear that she has an unfair advantage.

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There is plenty of analysis on this available, as well as athletes with DSDs, and the science is clear. I'm not sure why you are finding it so difficult.
I suppose for the same reason Jerry Coyne does. I'm sympathetic to people who want to compete, but have no obvious place where they can fairly compete. Solutions do not seem readily forthcoming.
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Old 12th June 2022, 01:11 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
. . . . A reminder that the "pro-trans" side is disproportionately female, and telling them that they're not considering their own interests is inescapably paternalistic.
.
This appears to be a statement of the position that someone can not be blind to their own interests, nor fail to judge them accurately. Now, of course, there is a long and unfortunate history of paternalistic and racist and every other type of -ist in which some group's interests are violated under the guise that they do not understand their own interests. But because that happens doesn't mean that it must happen in every case.

We can quite reasonably have an initial judgment, based on background knowledge, that telling someone what their interests are is paternalistic, etc., but if you want to go beyond heuristics, you have to judge every case on its own merits.
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Old 12th June 2022, 01:16 PM   #275
mumblethrax
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
This appears to be a statement of the position that someone can not be blind to their own interests, nor fail to judge them accurately. Now, of course, there is a long and unfortunate history of paternalistic and racist and every other type of -ist in which some group's interests are violated under the guise that they do not understand their own interests. But because that happens doesn't mean that it must happen in every case.

We can quite reasonably have an initial judgment, based on background knowledge, that telling someone what their interests are is paternalistic, etc., but if you want to go beyond heuristics, you have to judge every case on its own merits.
People can certainly be blind to their own interests, but as a strategic matter, telling a group that's disproportionately female that their favored policies are "anti-woman" is unlikely to be successful, and will almost certainly be regarded as paternalistic.

This is especially true among those who have expanded the circle of womanhood to include trans woman. To them, this will just read as "including women is anti-woman." We'll need a better argument.
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Old 12th June 2022, 01:44 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
People can certainly be blind to their own interests, but as a strategic matter, telling a group that's disproportionately female that their favored policies are "anti-woman" is unlikely to be successful, and will almost certainly be regarded as paternalistic.

This is especially true among those who have expanded the circle of womanhood to include trans woman. To them, this will just read as "including women is anti-woman." We'll need a better argument.
I took your charge of paternalism to be substantive and factual, not merely tactical. Some statement or position can be paternalistic beyond whether it is tactical or politic to hold that position or say that statement. That's the context I assumed we were working within. If you weren't, well, there's communication for ya.

Can you clarify?
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Old 12th June 2022, 02:35 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I took your charge of paternalism to be substantive and factual, not merely tactical. Some statement or position can be paternalistic beyond whether it is tactical or politic to hold that position or say that statement. That's the context I assumed we were working within. If you weren't, well, there's communication for ya.

Can you clarify?
I suppose whether or not it's substantively paternalistic will rest on how we approach the matter. If we tell them they're wrong, that's probably paternalistic. If we can successfully argue they're wrong, it's not. There needs to be some acknowledgement of autonomy to avoid paternalism.

I don't have the certainty that some do that people are wrong to accept transwomen as women, socially, and sports is a social activity. I don't know how to argue against that, and I'm not even sure that I want to.

In order to persuade, we'll have to be more nuanced and diplomatic. "Yes, transwomen are women. And men and women are all people. But we have to acknowledge biological differences between (some) transwomen and ciswomen, just as we have to acknowledge biological differences between men and women. Reproductive rights look different for men and women, and that's down to differences in biology--we don't have to ignore these, and we shouldn't. That doesn't make men or women less human, and acknowledging differences between ciswomen and transwomen doesn't make them any less women." Etc, etc.
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Old 12th June 2022, 03:04 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
A reminder that the "pro-trans" side is disproportionately female, and telling them that they're not considering their own interests is inescapably paternalistic.
Is it disproportionately female? My experience in this thread indicates otherwise. This board may not be a representative sample, but where are you getting your info from?

I would also be curious about the breakdown between females in general vs females who compete athletically. In terms of what counts as "their own interests", females who do not compete athletically may not view athletic competition rules as directly affecting their interests, because it kind of doesn't.
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Old 12th June 2022, 03:09 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is it disproportionately female? My experience in this thread indicates otherwise. This board may not be a representative sample, but where are you getting your info from?

I would also be curious about the breakdown between females in general vs females who compete athletically. In terms of what counts as "their own interests", females who do not compete athletically may not view athletic competition rules as directly affecting their interests, because it kind of doesn't.
One pattern we've seen in this thread is that pro-trans folks who don't compete athletically or follow athletic competition tend to solve the sports problem by dismissing sports as unimportant and therefore properly sacrificed to the principle of inclusion.
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Old 12th June 2022, 03:31 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well not conclusive but credible. Thomas swam much slower than their best to allow a transman to win.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/21/penn-s...hlete-to-lose/



ETA, losing, but still swimming slower. Sorry for my mis-recollection.

Still big on the conscious, repeated, deliberate misgendering, huh? Nice stuff. And remind me again how you reconcile this with the idea that you don't have a general animus against transgender people (or is it just to do specifically with transwomen? Are transmen ok to be called "he" and "him" or do they get no further than "they"/"them" with you as well?)
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