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Old 8th August 2022, 03:00 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sorry, it wasn't you who asked the original question, but you stuck your oar in and claimed my link didn't cover violence in UK.
Thank you but I reiterate, why do you think retail violence in the UK is relevant in a thread about legalised prostitution?

Edited by sarge:  edited to remove content edited from quoted post

Last edited by sarge; 9th August 2022 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 8th August 2022, 07:58 AM   #162
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I must have missed the point of the question. "You wouldn't advise your daughter to become a prostitute, therefore...." what, exactly? Prostitution should be illegal? Prostitution is a sin in the eyes of the Lord? Somebody help me out here.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:05 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I must have missed the point of the question. "You wouldn't advise your daughter to become a prostitute, therefore...." what, exactly? Prostitution should be illegal? Prostitution is a sin in the eyes of the Lord? Somebody help me out here.
I understood the point to be, "would you be happy if your daughter was working, legally, as a sex worker, selling sexual services?". You're not seriously trying to make the case that the question is anything more than a poke at potential double standards being in play in this thread? There is no other outcome than "yes" or "no" and then we move onto "why?".

I hope you're not disappointed that your personal "therefores", aren't a factor.

If I'm wrong then Thermal will correct me.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:06 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I must have missed the point of the question. "You wouldn't advise your daughter to become a prostitute, therefore...." what, exactly? Prostitution should be illegal? Prostitution is a sin in the eyes of the Lord? Somebody help me out here.
As you implied, it's pretty much just an attempt at some lame moral grandstanding.

I have a 20 year old daughter. She's had sex, I'd assume. She's even had sex with more than 1 person, I'd assume. I don't talk to her about it, but it's not a huge mystery that women, in general, enjoy sex.

I wouldn't be bothered by her working in that field, but I wouldn't suggest it to her for the same reason I don't suggest her to go out and have sex with people. It's her sex life and it's really none of my business. As long as I know she's safe at work, if that's what she wanted to do, and make money due to her looks, then all the more power to her.

And yes, that same attitude goes towards my wife, my sons, my sister, my mom, etc. Though a few of them will have a harder go of it than my daughter, I'd guess.

If I were to walk into an establishment like that, looking to utilize their services, and saw my daughter, or close family member, working there then I just wouldn't request their services. We'd probably both be a little embarrassed and life would go on. Kind of like if I had to buy condoms at a gas station from my aunt or the like. Weird, awkward, but fairly ho-hum.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:15 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I understood the point to be, "would you be happy if your daughter was working, legally, as a sex worker, selling sexual services?". You're not seriously trying to make the case that the question is anything more than a poke at potential double standards being in play in this thread? There is no other outcome than "yes" or "no" and then we move onto "why?".

I hope you're not disappointed that your personal "therefores", aren't a factor.

If I'm wrong then Thermal will correct me.
Right, a long ass drawn out attempt at a "gotcha".

The fact is there are a lot of jobs we wouldn't pitch to our kids for a myriad of reasons. Prostitution is definitely that way because of the stigma attached in the US, a stigma that Thermal and others here have perpetuated. But also because, at least in my case, I don't know anything about how the process works. I wouldn't be able to offer any guidance. It's also not something I really want to think about because she's my daughter. Does not, at all, mean that there's anything more than that to it. It also just doesn't sound like a fun job, but assuredly there are many who do love it.

The same reason I wouldn't suggest being a gravedigger to my kids. I'm sure some people love it, but in general it's not a gig a lot of people want.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:26 AM   #166
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I sincerely hope my (hypothetical) children aren't picking their vocations based on my personal moral hangups. I've (hypothetically) raised them better than that.

But yea "Okay so what if it was your daughter" is just emotional trap bait.

There's plenty of jobs I don't want my hypothetical children doing. Guess what that has zero to do with the job being little to be frank very little to do with them actually doing it being a problem.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:33 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Right, a long ass drawn out attempt at a "gotcha".
That's one way of putting it and you'll get no argument from me. I've already posited what the motivation was in asking upthread.

Quote:
The fact is there are a lot of jobs we wouldn't pitch to our kids for a myriad of reasons. Prostitution is definitely that way because of the stigma attached in the US, a stigma that Thermal and others here have perpetuated. But also because, at least in my case, I don't know anything about how the process works. I wouldn't be able to offer any guidance. It's also not something I really want to think about because she's my daughter. Does not, at all, mean that there's anything more than that to it. It also just doesn't sound like a fun job, but assuredly there are many who do love it.
That's a "no", and a, "here's why".

Quote:
The same reason I wouldn't suggest being a gravedigger to my kids. I'm sure some people love it, but in general it's not a gig a lot of people want.
Short Derail - Not entirely sure but here in the UK, the one or two people I've known to have dug a humans grave have been local authority employed, qualified gardeners/landscapers for whom digging a hole, safely, to specification and refilling it is a very small part of their job. I assume it's the same across the country so would have no issues with recommending such a career.

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Old 8th August 2022, 08:37 AM   #168
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I still don't understand the point of the question. Even if I say "no," what difference does that make in terms of whether it should be legal or not?

We have pointed out many careers we wouldn't advise. Let's get something more related. What if your daughter said she wanted to be a porn star? Presumably all the same objections apply. But being in porn movies is legal.

So the discussion is all a red-herring.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:44 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
That's a "no", and a, "here's why".
What are you talking about? You're saying that I'm saying "no" and then telling me why I'm saying "no"? Get that **** out of here lol. You can't tell me what I'm saying.

Seriously.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Short Derail - Not entirely sure but here in the UK, the one or two people I've known to have dug a humans grave have been local authority employed, qualified gardeners/landscapers for whom digging a hole, safely, to specification and refilling it is a very small part of their job. I assume it's the same across the country so would have no issues with recommending such a career.
I don't care.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:50 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I still don't understand the point of the question. Even if I say "no," what difference does that make in terms of whether it should be legal or not?
As I understand it the question doesn't seek to answer the legality of prostitution in any way, any shape or any form. The point has been fully explained, according to my understanding, up thread. If I'm wrong..... etc.

Quote:
We have pointed out many careers we wouldn't advise. Let's get something more related. What if your daughter said she wanted to be a porn star? Presumably all the same objections apply. But being in porn movies is legal.
I would advise her that such a career is likely to pay well in some circumstances but probably not so in the long run. I'd tell her that people will judge her harshly for such a career choice and that she is very likely to be taken advantage of and despite the legality of it all she will be swimming in murky waters with a lot of sharks. I would tell her I don't think it is a great career move.

Quote:
So the discussion is all a red-herring.
If you mean "distracting", then I agree. If you mean "misleading" then I don't.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:54 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I still don't understand the point of the question. Even if I say "no," what difference does that make in terms of whether it should be legal or not?

We have pointed out many careers we wouldn't advise. Let's get something more related. What if your daughter said she wanted to be a porn star? Presumably all the same objections apply. But being in porn movies is legal.

So the discussion is all a red-herring.
No it's bait.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:55 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What are you talking about? You're saying that I'm saying "no" and then telling me why I'm saying "no"? Get that **** out of here lol. You can't tell me what I'm saying.
You wrote it, own it. It's that bitty where you start "But also because,"

So, you can get **** out of here.... "lol".

Quote:
Seriously.
Indeed

Quote:
I don't care.
Why did you go to all the trouble of denigrating grave diggers then?
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:15 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You're not seriously trying to make the case that the question is anything more than a poke at potential double standards being in play in this thread?
First, legality was an issue from the beginning. "Laws" is literally the first word in this thread.

Second, I'm still trying to understand the point, and your post has not clarified the matter. Could you please elaborate on exactly what this "double standard" is?
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:28 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You wrote it, own it. It's that bitty where you start "But also because,"

So, you can get **** out of here.... "lol".
Your strawman and lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem. It's odd that you pulled this from what I said, but not surprising,

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Why did you go to all the trouble of denigrating grave diggers then?
Ah, more strawmen. You're terrible at this. I didn't peg you as having such miserable reading comprehension skills.

I didn't "denigrate" anyone. I said it wasn't, one of a zillion, jobs I'd recommend my kids having. That you need to twist everything around to try and get a "gotcha" from every post is really strange.

Almost like, since you have no actual argument, you just need to resort to fallacies. Odd.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:00 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
First, legality was an issue from the beginning. "Laws" is literally the first word in this thread.
Quite, but it wasn't germane to the question.

Quote:
Second, I'm still trying to understand the point, and your post has not clarified the matter. Could you please elaborate on exactly what this "double standard" is?
I think the question was designed to make those who insist that legalised prostitution is just another job admit that, despite that being the case, they'd rather their own progeny weren't involved in trading sexual services for cash. That's the potential double standard.

I'm sure you knew that though.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:04 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Your strawman and lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem. It's odd that you pulled this from what I said, but not surprising,



Ah, more strawmen. You're terrible at this. I didn't peg you as having such miserable reading comprehension skills.

I didn't "denigrate" anyone. I said it wasn't, one of a zillion, jobs I'd recommend my kids having. That you need to twist everything around to try and get a "gotcha" from every post is really strange.

Almost like, since you have no actual argument, you just need to resort to fallacies. Odd.
I don't have an argument, you're quite correct. I was supporting "The Question". The question was asked and you answered it negatively and gave reasons why you did so. Why you're so shy of those facts is beyond me?

There's no "gotcha" from me and I can't see where you get that idea from.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:17 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Quite, but it wasn't germane to the question.



I think the question was designed to make those who insist that legalised prostitution is just another job admit that, despite that being the case, they'd rather their own progeny weren't involved in trading sexual services for cash. That's the potential double standard.

I'm sure you knew that though.
Every job is unique.

I know people who when they go to work, they have to where full-fledged haz mat suits, with blast-proof shields. That's not just like any other job, either.

So ok, we agree that s3x work is different from being a cashier at the local grocery. Wow, real insight.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:28 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I didn't look at any of your links, despite the many hours you may have spent looking for some sort of pathetic "gotcha". This is thread about prostitution and the celebration of NZ being a world leader in legalising it (despite them being some 600 odd years late). If you want to start a thread about retail workers being abused, feel free. This is not the place.

And yet you were the person to interject regarding service industry violence...
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:29 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And I thought I was explaining why I think your question is stupid.
You were, it was. and you did explain this.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:39 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I still don't understand the point of the question. Even if I say "no," what difference does that make in terms of whether it should be legal or not?

We have pointed out many careers we wouldn't advise. Let's get something more related. What if your daughter said she wanted to be a porn star? Presumably all the same objections apply. But being in porn movies is legal.

So the discussion is all a red-herring.
Totally a red herring. The argument for legalization is primarily that it moves prostitution from the black market to the legit market which minimizes(not eliminates) the negatives associated with prostitution currently.

Legal markets allow participants access to the legal system. Violence is discouraged, worker protections exist, participants can have contracts and resort to courts instead of violence. It incentivizes legal participants to narc on the illegal participants rather than the opposite. Legalization minimizes harm to participants and nonparticipants alike.

I can say that and still say, I don't want my children to be prostitutes or pimps.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:48 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I don't have an argument, you're quite correct. I was supporting "The Question". The question was asked and you answered it negatively and gave reasons why you did so. Why you're so shy of those facts is beyond me?
I have no idea where you're getting that I answered negatively. I compared the job to a gravedigger.

I think the issue you guys are having a problem with is you seem to think that those who are advocating for legal prostitution and the like, are glorifying it. Saying it's a great gig for everyone and we should want our kids to do it!

From what I am understanding, no one here is saying that. If, lets say, my family lived in NZ or Australia, and my daughter came to me at 20, which she is now, and said that she was going to do that as a job, it really wouldn't bother me at all. Why? Because I know it would be regulated, I know she'd be protected by the law, and just like every other job, she was doing it to make money. I'd also assume that she really likes to have sex, and (at $500 a pop) would only have to do it 3-4 times a day to make enough money to be happy.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
There's no "gotcha" from me and I can't see where you get that idea from.
Your words. Glad I could help.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I think the question was designed to make those who insist that legalised prostitution is just another job admit that, despite that being the case, they'd rather their own progeny weren't involved in trading sexual services for cash. That's the potential double standard.

I'm sure you knew that though.
I'd rather my progeny not do a **** ton of jobs, every single one of them legal.

The difference is I don't try to use my personal morality as a reason why.
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Old 8th August 2022, 12:24 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I have no idea where you're getting that I answered negatively. I compared the job to a gravedigger.

I think the issue you guys are having a problem with is you seem to think that those who are advocating for legal prostitution and the like, are glorifying it. Saying it's a great gig for everyone and we should want our kids to do it!

From what I am understanding, no one here is saying that. If, lets say, my family lived in NZ or Australia, and my daughter came to me at 20, which she is now, and said that she was going to do that as a job, it really wouldn't bother me at all. Why? Because I know it would be regulated, I know she'd be protected by the law, and just like every other job, she was doing it to make money. I'd also assume that she really likes to have sex, and (at $500 a pop) would only have to do it 3-4 times a day to make enough money to be happy.



Your words. Glad I could help.



I'd rather my progeny not do a **** ton of jobs, every single one of them legal.

The difference is I don't try to use my personal morality as a reason why.
I disagree. Should a child of mine want to be a republican congressional staffer for Matt Gaetz, I would have a lot of problems with it, including moral issues.
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Old 8th August 2022, 12:28 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I disagree. Should a child of mine want to be a republican congressional staffer for Matt Gaetz, I would have a lot of problems with it, including moral issues.
"hoW dARe yU maKE It POlITIcal!"
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Old 8th August 2022, 12:55 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I disagree. Should a child of mine want to be a republican congressional staffer for Matt Gaetz, I would have a lot of problems with it, including moral issues.
Well, since my daughter is 20 at least I wouldn't have to worry about Gaetz trying to sleep with her. She's a few years too old for his tastes.
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Old 8th August 2022, 01:13 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

And yet you were the person to interject regarding service industry violence...
I did? Where?

I asked why we were using anecdotes about retail industry violence in a thread where violence against prostitutes came up.
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Old 8th August 2022, 01:14 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You were, it was. and you did explain this.
It's not my question. Do keep up.
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Old 8th August 2022, 01:39 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
...snip...I think the issue you guys are having a problem with is you seem to think that those who are advocating for legal prostitution and the like, are glorifying it. Saying it's a great gig for everyone and we should want our kids to do it!
This guy is interested in the opinion of those who describe prostitution as an everyday job and whether they'd be happy to recommend it to a family member.

I never posed the question, so I'm confused as to why the motivation for it is attributed to me. Don't get me wrong I was and am happy to "bump" it along in the thread.

Quote:
From what I am understanding, no one here is saying that. If, lets say, my family lived in NZ or Australia, and my daughter came to me at 20, which she is now, and said that she was going to do that as a job, it really wouldn't bother me at all. Why? Because I know it would be regulated, I know she'd be protected by the law, and just like every other job, she was doing it to make money. I'd also assume that she really likes to have sex, and (at $500 a pop) would only have to do it 3-4 times a day to make enough money to be happy.
Fine. I wouldn't be as unconcerned about where my daughters career path was going than you.

Quote:
Your words. Glad I could help.
Maybe my words but not my "gotcha". You can see that, yes?

Quote:
I'd rather my progeny not do a **** ton of jobs, every single one of them legal.
And rightly so.

Quote:
The difference is I don't try to use my personal morality as a reason why.
I think morality is something that is, largely, ingrained in us from our parents so I'm disappointed to read that. Each to his own though.
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Old 8th August 2022, 07:25 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Why did you select "garbage collector"? With an average UK salary at £23k it's not the worst paying job and it's certainly a lot cleaner due to being heavily mechanised these days.
I picked it at random. Almost any other profession would have equally served as an example.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:26 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I understood the point to be, "would you be happy if your daughter was working, legally, as a sex worker, selling sexual services?". You're not seriously trying to make the case that the question is anything more than a poke at potential double standards being in play in this thread? There is no other outcome than "yes" or "no" and then we move onto "why?".

I hope you're not disappointed that your personal "therefores", aren't a factor.

If I'm wrong then Thermal will correct me.
Sort of. Whether they are happy or not with such a decision is not where I was going. At the very least, there would be a spectrum of feelings about it, rather than a y/n. What I am trying to suss out is whether posters seriously think that prostitution is no big deal, comparable to washing dishes. Just another job. I don't think they really believe that. I think it's something that sounds like the right thing to say, but when the rubber hits the road, it's a hard pass. Like a lot of discussions about sex, there is a weird disjointed kind of thinking, with little logical consistency. So I ask whether it would be something they would be comfortable recommending to their own children, hopefully to highlight just how 'no big deal' they really think it is.

I personally think sex is too personal and intimate for commercial sale. Humankind has historically disagreed, obviously. So to focus on modern legalization: should it be? I think to answer that, we have to be real about what we think of sexual intimacy, without the knee-jerk posturing.

If sex is just a no big deal mechanical act, all sorts of taboos come into question. A second question, then: as my wife will attest, Thermal loves him a bj. Would it be wrong for me to accept one as a tip from a grateful customer? No relationship thing to betray our marital fidelity, just a friendly show of appreciation with an impersonal act?

Ratcheting it up a notch: if I help my wife's sister out, could she similarly show her appreciation? It's not a personal intimacy thing, right? It's no different than me offering to do the heavy or mechanical work at her house. I offer my skills and muscle willingly to help her, so she reciprocates with a friendly gesture from her wheelhouse, right? If sex is not 'special' as some resident trolls claim, there shouldn't be an issue.

Taking it over the top: It's brother's birthday. Sis knows what brother would like. Not a big deal? We are not talking about the inbred stuff that can genetically backfire so bad. Just a friendly hummer. Since doing so with a complete stranger for cash is fully acceptable, why not between two people that actually care for each other, in a non-romantic setting? Shouldn't be any different than me rubbing my sister in law's sore shoulders, right? If not, why not?

And before the Troll Brigade starts up again, no, I'm not advocating incest. I can't quite figure out where you guys have the line, and more importantly, why. I think it goes a long way in how we feel as a culture about women, and consequently how we treat legalized prostitution. There is an icky undercurrent of thought that 'my fam is better than that'. No bueno.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:49 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Sort of. Whether they are happy or not with such a decision is not where I was going. At the very least, there would be a spectrum of feelings about it, rather than a y/n. What I am trying to suss out is whether posters seriously think that prostitution is no big deal, comparable to washing dishes. Just another job. I don't think they really believe that. I think it's something that sounds like the right thing to say, but when the rubber hits the road, it's a hard pass. Like a lot of discussions about sex, there is a weird disjointed kind of thinking, with little logical consistency. So I ask whether it would be something they would be comfortable recommending to their own children, hopefully to highlight just how 'no big deal' they really think it is.
Well, to answer the question as straightforwardly as I possibly can, yes, I would be perfectly happy with a child of mine choosing sex work as a profession as long as it is legal and safe. They're a grown-up adult now, they can choose for themself.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I personally think sex is too personal and intimate for commercial sale. Humankind has historically disagreed, obviously. So to focus on modern legalization: should it be? I think to answer that, we have to be real about what we think of sexual intimacy, without the knee-jerk posturing.
Sure, sex can be extremely personal and intimate. But it isn't always.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If sex is just a no big deal mechanical act, all sorts of taboos come into question. A second question, then: as my wife will attest, Thermal loves him a bj. Would it be wrong for me to accept one as a tip from a grateful customer? No relationship thing to betray our marital fidelity, just a friendly show of appreciation with an impersonal act?
If all parties to the agreement are consenting, why not? Depending on your employment arrangement there may be policies about accepting gifts above and beyond regular monetary payment, but if you're self-employed, the customer offers, both you and your wife agree, I see no problem with this. I think it's a pretty unrealistic scenario though, and bordering on the Slippery Slope.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ratcheting it up a notch: if I help my wife's sister out, could she similarly show her appreciation? It's not a personal intimacy thing, right? It's no different than me offering to do the heavy or mechanical work at her house. I offer my skills and muscle willingly to help her, so she reciprocates with a friendly gesture from her wheelhouse, right? If sex is not 'special' as some resident trolls claim, there shouldn't be an issue.
Okay, hold on to the railing because this is definitely on its way down the Slippery Slope.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Taking it over the top: It's brother's birthday. Sis knows what brother would like. Not a big deal? We are not talking about the inbred stuff that can genetically backfire so bad. Just a friendly hummer. Since doing so with a complete stranger for cash is fully acceptable, why not between two people that actually care for each other, in a non-romantic setting? Shouldn't be any different than me rubbing my sister in law's sore shoulders, right? If not, why not?
Now buckled in and fully committed to the Slippery Slope.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And before the Troll Brigade starts up again, no, I'm not advocating incest. I can't quite figure out where you guys have the line, and more importantly, why. I think it goes a long way in how we feel as a culture about women, and consequently how we treat legalized prostitution. There is an icky undercurrent of thought that 'my fam is better than that'. No bueno.
I understand that you aren't advocating anything. Again to answer your question as straightforwardly as I can, the place where I draw the line is at consent. Specifically, fully informed voluntary consent. The only absolute sexual taboo I recognise is non-consent. If all parties are fully informed and engaging voluntarily, what, exactly, is wrong?
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:40 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, to answer the question as straightforwardly as I possibly can, yes, I would be perfectly happy with a child of mine choosing sex work as a profession as long as it is legal and safe. They're a grown-up adult now, they can choose for themself.
That right there. Do you see what you did? You reframed the question from whether you would endorse the proposition a priori, to passively accepting the fait accomplis. That is exactly what I said I was not asking from the very first time:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And no weaseling, please. I'm not asking if they showed an interest in that line of work as a career...Eta: oh, and im not asking for the mindlessly generic "I support my child's career decisions" thing.
To repeat, I am not asking if you would accept it after the fact. I am asking if you would endorse it up front.

Quote:
Sure, sex can be extremely personal and intimate. But it isn't always.
Fair point. So would you endorse to your wife to engage in some impersonal money-making contractual services to help out the household finances? Unless $500/hr casual work wouldn't help out the budget, I mean. I wouldn't, because my line doesn't shift much.

Quote:
If all parties to the agreement are consenting, why not? Depending on your employment arrangement there may be policies about accepting gifts above and beyond regular monetary payment, but if you're self-employed, the customer offers, both you and your wife agree, I see no problem with this.
I appreciate the straight answer. Except I don't see what my wife would have to do with it. Do you mean that any sex I engage in should be 'special', requiring her approval? I don't ask her for permission for someone to wash my car. You know, because it's no big deal.

{eta: holup. Can we extrapolate from this 'wife approval' that you would say guys soliciting prostitutes need to have spousal endorsement, or the services are somehow non-consensual? Not meant as a gotcha, just trying to keep this somewhat foreign idea straight in my head.}

Quote:
I think it's a pretty unrealistic scenario though, and bordering on the Slippery Slope.

Okay, hold on to the railing because this is definitely on its way down the Slippery Slope.

Now buckled in and fully committed to the Slippery Slope.
Not at all. It's the same scenario, with different relationships, and the way I framed them, the aromantic nature of the relationships should make no difference.

If you perceive a slippery slope, it's because you actually think sex is very 'special', and people you are close to are under strict special exemptions. If all consent, as you endorse, I don't see why that would be an issue.

Quote:
I understand that you aren't advocating anything. Again to answer your question as straightforwardly as I can, the place where I draw the line is at consent. Specifically, fully informed voluntary consent. The only absolute sexual taboo I recognise is non-consent. If all parties are fully informed and engaging voluntarily, what, exactly, is wrong?
Again, straight answer appreciated. I think people can consent to all sorts of bad decisions. That's why we sometimes use law to help guide those choices. One might be a young woman having their father asking them if they have considered prostitution. Their view of themselves and men could be pretty profoundly affected by that.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:14 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That right there. Do you see what you did? You reframed the question from whether you would endorse the proposition a priori, to passively accepting the fait accomplis. That is exactly what I said I was not asking from the very first time:

...

To repeat, I am not asking if you would accept it after the fact. I am asking if you would endorse it up front.
I didn't a priori endorse any profession for my child. Did I a priori endorse the profession of truck driver before he became one? No. Because he is an adult, and his job choices are his business.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fair point. So would you endorse to your wife to engage in some impersonal money-making contractual services to help out the household finances? Unless $500/hr casual work wouldn't help out the budget, I mean. I wouldn't, because my line doesn't shift much.
I don't have a wife. But if I did, and she chose to consider such an option - because it is her choice, not mine - I would not have a problem with it, again as long as it was legal and safe. ETA: yes, I'm turning the question over again. I do no a priori endorse any profession for another person.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I appreciate the straight answer. Except I don't see what my wife would have to do with it. Do you mean that any sex I engage in should be 'special', requiring her approval? I don't ask her for permission for someone to wash my car. You know, because it's no big deal.
Presumably when you were married there was some kind of agreement between you and your wife about whether you could have sex with other people. You shouldn't break that agreement. You especially shouldn't break that agreement and lie about it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
{eta: holup. Can we extrapolate from this 'wife approval' that you would say guys soliciting prostitutes need to have spousal endorsement, or the services are somehow non-consensual? Not meant as a gotcha, just trying to keep this somewhat foreign idea straight in my head.}
Marriage is a contract, and contracts have terms and conditions. Breaching those terms and conditions is grounds for annulment, so if you really care for your wife you should not do that. Any relationship whether formalised by marriage or not needs to be based on free and open communication.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not at all. It's the same scenario, with different relationships, and the way I framed them, the aromantic nature of the relationships should make no difference.

If you perceive a slippery slope, it's because you actually think sex is very 'special', and people you are close to are under strict special exemptions. If all consent, as you endorse, I don't see why that would be an issue.
I'm not going to speculate any further along these lines. It's a red herring. Anyone can think up increasingly unlikely scenarios. I'm not playing that game.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, straight answer appreciated. I think people can consent to all sorts of bad decisions. That's why we sometimes use law to help guide those choices. One might be a young woman having their father asking them if they have considered prostitution. Their view of themselves and men could be pretty profoundly affected by that.
Again, fully informed voluntary consent. This means that if a decision you make turns out to be a bad one, you accept that and move on with your life, hopefully having learned something.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:46 PM   #193
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A truely bizarre thread. Who would have thought that at least some US skeptics are hard core moralists?
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:50 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A truely bizarre thread. Who would have thought that at least some US skeptics are hard core moralists?
To be fair, sex has long been a highly charged subject in some parts of the world. The US would not be the only place where that might happen.
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Old 9th August 2022, 02:25 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
...(at $500 a pop)...
$250 is top dollar here.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If sex is just a no big deal mechanical act, all sorts of taboos come into question. A second question, then: as my wife will attest, Thermal loves him a bj. Would it be wrong for me to accept one as a tip from a grateful customer? No relationship thing to betray our marital fidelity, just a friendly show of appreciation with an impersonal act?

Ratcheting it up a notch: if I help my wife's sister out, could she similarly show her appreciation? It's not a personal intimacy thing, right? It's no different than me offering to do the heavy or mechanical work at her house. I offer my skills and muscle willingly to help her, so she reciprocates with a friendly gesture from her wheelhouse, right? If sex is not 'special' as some resident trolls claim, there shouldn't be an issue.
Nah.

If you're in a relationship where both parties desire and agree to fidelity, it doesn't work. If you have an open relationship, by all means take the tip by way of fellatio.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Taking it over the top: It's brother's birthday. Sis knows what brother would like. Not a big deal? We are not talking about the inbred stuff that can genetically backfire so bad. Just a friendly hummer. Since doing so with a complete stranger for cash is fully acceptable, why not between two people that actually care for each other, in a non-romantic setting? Shouldn't be any different than me rubbing my sister in law's sore shoulders, right? If not, why not?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no issue with consenting adults with no coercive or power relationship (i.e. parent/child) having sex with each other if they want to. The laws on that are pure bible nonsense, and no harm need come from it. (I will note that in the 1500s a pair of my ancestors shared the same surname but weren't married because they were brother and sister - may explain a few things!)

Just watch where you put your hands when you're doing the shoulder rub.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:59 AM   #196
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It's not prostitution that's the problem, is it?

The issue is that we live in societies with such poor safety nets that prostitution is a last resort for those in dire need of money.

If we lived in a society where people didn't get to that level of desperation, we could be sure that sex workers were doing it because they wanted to, not because they had no other options.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:07 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's not prostitution that's the problem, is it?

The issue is that we live in societies with such poor safety nets that prostitution is a last resort for those in dire need of money.

If we lived in a society where people didn't get to that level of desperation, we could be sure that sex workers were doing it because they wanted to, not because they had no other options.
Know what? Whether you like it or not, the situation in Australia and New Zealand is that people elect to be prostitutes.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:29 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Know what? Whether you like it or not, the situation in Australia and New Zealand is that people elect to be prostitutes.
That's my point. If someone with many other options decides to be a sex worker then we can all relax that they've made that choice and it's what they want to do.

It's when people go into sex work because they have no other options and if they don't, they'll starve that's worrisome.

The former circumstance bothers me not at all, the latter is deeply concerning.

I have no reason to disagree with you. I think you may have misintepreted my post. To be fair, it may have been badly written
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:39 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Know what? Whether you like it or not, the situation in Australia and New Zealand is that people elect to be prostitutes.
Quite, even those underage it seems. Perhaps things aren't as rosy as they appear on the face of it. Even the best regulated plans can and will be exploited

Quote:
Newspapers report on concerns about underage street workers, stating that this is the commonest entry point into the trade for them and that some of them may be being pimped by gang members.

Reports have cited some community workers who stated that they had found girls "as young as 10 or 11" selling sex, and one mentioned students from a West Auckland high school who "turned tricks" at lunchtime. Children as young as 13 were also removed from the streets of South Auckland.

Convictions have been obtained against operators who did not check ID and hired under age workers. There have been several cases in Christchurch. Another case occurred in Whangārei.

In 2005, ECPAT New Zealand and the Stop Demand Foundation (agencies which combat the sexual exploitation of children), commenting on the Ministry of Justice's report "The Nature and Extent of the Sex Industry in New Zealand", questioned the effectiveness of New Zealand's legislation in relation to underage prostitution; the agencies pointed to a police survey of the New Zealand sex industry which showed that 210 children under the age of 18 years were identified as selling sex, with three-quarters being concentrated in one Police District.
It seems that exiting the profession is an issue due to lack of support and strategy also. Whilst initially screening the report it came from I found one anecdote that suggests violence can be ignored, despite claims of security guards ready to pounce.

Quote:
Rae Story who worked in a New Zealand legal brothel has said that this “was anything but a job like any other.” She related the pain from “often rabid men [who] left us bruised and sore.” When she pushed one particularly offensive sex buyer away from her, he got impatient and angry and complained to the brothel receptionist who let it pass only because this was the first complaint against her.
This *report, written by feminist scholar and activist Janice Raymond is worth reading and this excerpted story (again anecdotal) is quite damning.

Quote:
Young Jade had a friend who dropped her off at a brothel, and because she was underage, the friend gave Jade her identity card. The madam barely looked at the card, liked that she was sucking on a lollipop, and put the word out that she was young. Her first buyer was into fantasies of sex with children. "The younger I pretended to be when I lost my virginity the more he enjoyed himself. From then on, I had night after night of pedophile types… Over ten years I estimate I have been raped at least 30 times and suffered about 2,500 severely violent attacks. I never got any medical treatment…None of the sex worker advocacy agencies ever offered a contingency to get me out of the sex industry. They supplied lawyers, health checks, condoms, and dams but nothing to help me get out."
The report doesn't paint the picture of wealthy, happy hookers that I'm seeing here.

*I am still working my way through it.

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Old 9th August 2022, 10:01 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Would it be wrong for me to accept one as a tip from a grateful customer?
...are you both consenting adults? If yes, then what exactly is the issue here?

Quote:
Ratcheting it up a notch: if I help my wife's sister out, could she similarly show her appreciation? It's not a personal intimacy thing, right? It's no different than me offering to do the heavy or mechanical work at her house. I offer my skills and muscle willingly to help her, so she reciprocates with a friendly gesture from her wheelhouse, right? If sex is not 'special' as some resident trolls claim, there shouldn't be an issue.
You aren't really "ratcheting up a notch. You just want to have guilt-free sex with your wife's sister, and you are pretending that this is "sex work" so that you don't have to deal with the trauma.

No judgement on you, of course. You live your life anyway you want. But this isn't really about sex work.

Quote:
Taking it over the top: It's brother's birthday. Sis knows what brother would like. Not a big deal? We are not talking about the inbred stuff that can genetically backfire so bad. Just a friendly hummer. Since doing so with a complete stranger for cash is fully acceptable, why not between two people that actually care for each other, in a non-romantic setting? Shouldn't be any different than me rubbing my sister in law's sore shoulders, right? If not, why not?
I mean, whatever floats your boat.

Quote:
And before the Troll Brigade starts up again, no, I'm not advocating incest.
But you are content to fantasize about it on a public message board.

Again: whatever floats your boat.

Quote:
I can't quite figure out where you guys have the line, and more importantly, why.
The Prostitution Law Reforms came about because Sex Workers were working in unsafe conditions, and they lobbied for years to make things better and safer. The line here, IMHO, are the law reforms 2003.

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/...html#DLM197886

The key difference on what we did here and what is typically done in the rest of the world is that the reforms were driven by Sex Workers themselves. And while men are indeed part of the sex industry, it was largely driven by women, spearheaded by the New Zealand Prostitute Collective, along with input from the New Zealand Federation of Business and Professional Women, National Council of Women of New Zealand, YWCA, and the AIDS Foundation.

Quote:
I think it goes a long way in how we feel as a culture about women, and consequently how we treat legalized prostitution. There is an icky undercurrent of thought that 'my fam is better than that'. No bueno.
I think that the way that Sex Workers are treated in America says a LOT about the way you, as a culture, feel about women. There is an icky undercurrent of misogyny that surrounds every discussion on this topic. It isn't about giving agency to women: it's all about "what if it was your daughter?" as if men should even have a say what a grown, consenting adult should do.
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