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Old 13th July 2018, 07:41 AM   #121
Horatius
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
There's a bit more to it, but yes, that's the essential core of what I and others have been saying.


And consider this reaction in one of the other "While Black" threads:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12359461

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Speaking as an adult white male, how does this **** happen? I really don't understand this stupid ****.

This is exactly the reaction we need from more people seeing this crap.
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:17 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm sorry but I think you're projecting. I also think that the blatant bigots aren't going to be swayed, but the willfully ignorant may be.

Do you realize the effect that these representative events have on people, on the culture.

> The Civil Rights marchers facing down fire hoses, riot clubs and police dogs?
> "The Whole World is Watching" peace demonstrations and Grant Park police riots?
> The fighting of the Vietnam War on the Six O'Clock News?
> The Rodney King tape?

Public opinion. Anecdotal evidence. Emotional heartstring pulling.

There are people out there who are swayed by lying racist memes and fake news (The Knockout Game comes to mind). My introduction to our most famous (infamous) white supremacist on these forum was because he was spreading ******** lies promulgated by a bigot from WND, loosely sub-titled "N-words behaving badly".

If one of these incidents sways a few more people away from the Fox News Constant-cast? I'm fine with it. I'll read the studies, too. I read the Pentagon Papers and the Warren Commission Report. I know two ivory tower academics who were swayed by by the Pentagon Papers. I know and know of hundreds who were swayed by the ARVN Colonel blowing that prisoner's brains out.
I agree. The footage you cited is moving and powerful. My argument is that the bulk of the LWB threads are not. They smack of SJWs grasping at straws, trying to play the race card on some pretty ambiguous stories. Some are powerful, like the man arrested hundreds of times by some fascist yokel cops; that one should be screamed from the mountaintop. But instead, we are treated to BBQing I'm the wrong part of a park.
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:29 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
No, I don't ask "so what?" I respond that no individual event is representative of the whole. There is no such event. This event isn't what all racism looks like, it's what this event looks like. It's how racism sometimes rears it's ugly face.
Ya kinda did. You said (paraphrasing) 'they are not great examples, but they make the point'. My belabored argument is that no, they really don't.

Quote:
You start with "we're trying to convince people who are on the fence" and claim they don't exist, so sure, trying to convince no one of something is unproductive. So, perhaps it's something different?

There are, however, people out there that just don't realize the every day nature of these events. They don't get the drip, drip, drip of it. They don't get that it's on the edge in a way that it can be explained away as something else, not that it isn't also something else. Showing them the drips, what this sort of thing looks like, makes a difference. It makes people who care more aware that even though it may look like that thing that happened to them a couple years ago, this thing happens to people of color over and over and over.

These discussions are also useful for those people. Good people see how other good people explain the drips away as something common, that happens to everyone. But, they don't happen to everyone over and over and over, only to people of color. Perhaps they connect to something visceral in a particular situation that brings home the problem for them. Perhaps people will realize they keep seeing the same excuses over and over and over, then realize that they may actually be part of the problem, by NOT getting involved like they did when the n* word was being tossed about.
Hold up: I said what, now? With quotes, no less? Can you refresh my memory where you pulled that quote? Clairvoyance doesn't count, nor does taking my position for a walk.
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:30 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
There's a bit more to it, but yes, that's the essential core of what I and others have been saying.

That's the truly shocking part of understanding racism in this country, and others. Not the standout, egregious incidents, but the sheer petty, mundane, commonplace nature of how racism is expressed. Not the big "storms" like the nazi marches and white guys shooting up black churches, but the slow steady dripping the erodes the bedrock and slowly reshapes the landscape to to the point it becomes difficult to tell where an interaction is shaped by racism, or where it's shaped by other forces, and how much of each is present, without being able to see where it fits into the whole landscape of interactions.

Our socio-political landscape in this country (and many others) has been so heavily shaped by over two centuries of racism and xenophobia that it's difficult to separate it all out, and saying that one particular incident isn't racist but is something else not only cannot be done definitively (no one is that psychic), but attempting to do so entirely misses the point.
I had intended to post my own version of this idea, but you stated it much better than could I.

...The banality of evil and the mundane but relentless nature of discrimination and racism...
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Funny enough, the first place I see each and every one of these? Black Twitter. And like any other racial group, there are a wide variety of people involved - journalists, activists, podcasters, hoteps, and some folks that just flat-out hate white people - but nobody who calls themself an "SJW". And each time, there are elements that push things firmly out of "Ge,, is this actually racist?" and into the "Yep, we're sure, who is this idiot, find their names, get them fired." Calling the cops on people doing what everyone else does, some clown spewing racial slurs and ignoring evidence in front of them, things like that. This is all 101-level racism.
I get your point. You linked a story up thread about a black guy denied entry to a club on some patently BS reasoning that he had the wrong shoes on. The same has happened to me, right down to the shoes being the alleged reason. Now, how is it reasonably determined that his situation was racially motivated and mine was not?
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:56 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ya kinda did. You said (paraphrasing) 'they are not great examples, but they make the point'. My belabored argument is that no, they really don't.

Hold up: I said what, now? With quotes, no less? Can you refresh my memory where you pulled that quote? Clairvoyance doesn't count, nor does taking my position for a walk.
The quotes are there, work it out.

Wow, talk about not arguing in good faith.
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:56 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I get your point. You linked a story up thread about a black guy denied entry to a club on some patently BS reasoning that he had the wrong shoes on. The same has happened to me, right down to the shoes being the alleged reason. Now, how is it reasonably determined that his situation was racially motivated and mine was not?
Because in the reported instance a white person subsequently wore the same shoes and was instantly admitted.
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Old 13th July 2018, 09:04 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Because in the reported instance a white person subsequently wore the same shoes and was instantly admitted.
That proves clearly that some shenanigans were up. But how is it determined that the black guy was bounced specifically because he was black, and not, as in my anecdote, because of my hostile demeanor or similar?
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Old 13th July 2018, 09:15 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
The quotes are there, work it out.

Wow, talk about not arguing in good faith.
Just checked all my posts, don't see it or anything like it. Maybe this could be the arguing in good faith showdown?
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Old 13th July 2018, 09:21 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That proves clearly that some shenanigans were up. But how is it determined that the black guy was bounced specifically because he was black, and not, as in my anecdote, because of my hostile demeanor or similar?
The article provides several stories from different, unrelated black individuals relating identical experiences of being denied entry, or being specially scrutinized after entry, whilst white patrons immediately around them who were ostensibly violating the same "dress code" (sometimes with the exact same apparel) were ignored.
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Old 13th July 2018, 09:29 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The article provides several stories from different, unrelated black individuals relating identical experiences of being denied entry, or being specially scrutinized after entry, whilst white patrons immediately around them who were ostensibly violating the same "dress code" (sometimes with the exact same apparel) were ignored.
Thermal won't be convinced. Without racist rhetoric, it's not racist. It can be explained away.
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Old 13th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Thermal won't be convinced. Without racist rhetoric, it's not racist. It can be explained away.
You're lying. I have agreed that more than one story seems to be racially motivated with no rhetoric at all.

That must be that good faith arguing again.

Hanging in for your quote, though.
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Old 13th July 2018, 09:59 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're lying. I have agreed that more than one story seems to be racially motivated with no rhetoric at all.

That must be that good faith arguing again.
Every argument for racism is Macro. When you're finally convinced a particular episode may have racism as a motive, it "seems to be" racism, you seem to hedge, and follow arguments for with a "but..." against.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Hanging in for your quote, though.
Read the post you have an issue with. I merely restated your points, which you cannot be so obtuse as not to understand.

You keep on explaining how people experiencing racism are not experiencing it. Do you believe you are helping people of color by helping them understand that it's not really racism? I know the sort of help you are providing isn't making my family's life better. You may think you're being fair and skeptical, but you are cultivating strange fruit.
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Old 13th July 2018, 10:05 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The article provides several stories from different, unrelated black individuals relating identical experiences of being denied entry, or being specially scrutinized after entry, whilst white patrons immediately around them who were ostensibly violating the same "dress code" (sometimes with the exact same apparel) were ignored.
Ok, am on cel so its not being reliable but the story itself doesn't have several people reporting the same experience. It does link to yelp reviews, the first two by black patrons saying they had no problems getting in and had a good time. Will check again when on laptop
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Old 13th July 2018, 10:13 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Every argument for racism is Macro. When you're finally convinced a particular episode may have racism as a motive, it "seems to be" racism, you seem to hedge, and follow arguments for with a "but..." against.
Again, a lie. The first LWB thread I commented on was That Starbucks Thing. I opined consistently from the start that the manager appeared racist and discriminated against the men (the cops were just being cops, though). On a skeptical forum, though, is looking at things critically really such a faux pas?

Quote:
Read the post you have an issue with. I merely restated your points, which you cannot be so obtuse as not to understand.

You keep on explaining how people experiencing racism are not experiencing it. Do you believe you are helping people of color by helping them understand that it's not really racism? I know the sort of help you are providing isn't making my family's life better. You may think you're being fair and skeptical, but you are cultivating strange fruit.
Yeah, I see what you did. You walked my position around and used quotes around the new place you took it. That's arguing in bad faith in a nutshell.

I'm sure you will handwave this, but I am trying to be fair and critical. Lying about my words...is not.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:00 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Now, most of the time when the more subtle 'drip drip drip' racism is going down, the cameras will not be rolling. So when the cameras do catch something, however weak, the Tumblr/SJW crowd pounces on it. That's where these threads come in. The issue is not trying to explain away the individual cases, like lung cancer in cigarette smokers. The issue is that the threads that have been captured on video and posted are not representative of the problem.

And you've once again demonstrated that you just don't get it. These incidents are, in fact, VERY representative of the problem. Racism isn't just marching nazis and spooky people with white hoods burning crosses. It's the little, "petty", "mundane" indignities that minority people face constantly, every single day of their lives.

Racism itself is for the most part mundane and petty. It's Hannah Arendt's "banality of evil". That's what makes it such an insidious problem, and why so many people try to explain it away.

Quote:
The issue is not trying to explain away the individual cases,

Yes, it clearly is, because that is exactly what you and other people in these threads are doing -- denying the existence of banal evil while asserting that evil has to be profound to be worth acknowledging as such.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:14 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, am on cel so its not being reliable but the story itself doesn't have several people reporting the same experience.
False.

In addition to the headline story - which involves to different incidents, I might add - we are given these three accounts:

Quote:
“In 2018, we shouldn’t have to encounter such a scenario,” said Oyinye Ejindu, a real estate broker who lives in Bedford. In June 2016, while he lived in Fort Worth, he was turned away from Varsity one night while he was wearing a T-shirt and Gap jeans, he said.

Ejindu said he was neither under- nor overdressed, but the bouncer denied him entry because he was wearing white tennis shoes. Meanwhile, the next person in line, a white man in cargo shorts, was allowed in, he said. Ejindu is one of at least 25 people who wrote a Yelp review about his experience at Varsity.

Quote:
Arlington resident Nastassia Macharia said she and her husband, who was born in Kenya, had heard that Varsity had a strict dress-code policy. They knew the bar didn’t allow tennis shoes so her husband wore Timberland boots. He also wore a button-down shirt and jeans.

One night in February 2018, the couple waited in line with a group of eight of their friends. At the front door, Macharia’s husband was told he couldn’t go in because his boots violated the dress code. Macharia said they eventually got into the bar through the side door, where a bouncer who she said felt bad for them, allowed them in.

Upon entering the bar, Macharia said she noticed that there were white people around who were dressed even more casually and in tennis shoes.

Later, a security guard came up to the couple and asked Macharia’s husband how he got into the bar and told him he couldn’t be there because of his shoes. When Macharia’s husband calmly asked what the dress code was, the security guard said he didn’t have to tell him. The security guard physically pushed her husband to leave, Macharia said.
Quote:
Dea Priest, a 30-year-old woman who grew up in Fort Worth and now lives in Arlington, said she has avoided the West 7th area since her husband, a black man, was turned away from Varsity in November 2017. She called it an all-around "bad vibe."

She had heard that Varsity had a reputation from a few people, which was confirmed when they walked up to the door.

"There wasn't even a line," she said. "I could see the guys sizing up my husband before we even took our IDs out."

When her husband was told that his Jordans, which were black, weren't allowed, the couple noticed that the next person in line, a white man, was wearing the same shoes in white, and was allowed in.
And this isn't counting the countless negative reviews on Yelp by black reviewers claiming they were denied entry over a necklace or particular brands of boots and getting the impression of racial discrimination, many of which predate this article.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:16 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yes, it clearly is, because that is exactly what you and other people in these threads are doing -- denying the existence of banal evil while asserting that evil has to be profound to be worth acknowledging as such.
Maybe other people or thermal in other threads are explaining away racists incidents but not here. He's been pretty clear that he isn't even denying that this appears to a racist incident. Its that there is a long series of these, some are clearly racist(I think this one) some are at worst ambigous(the BBQ in the Park) and some are probably not(the paper delivery kid) but they are all being promoted as obvious examples. My argument is a. they are all anecdotes regardless, and b. Lumping paper boy in with Socks in the Pool really waters down the impact of Socks in the Pool and gives cover to those that want to ignore the problem.

To be fair to those that have actually address my argument, I fully admit its debatable what the best way to actually move the needle on racism is. I don't think its trotting out every video of potentially racist behavior, lots of folks disagree with me but I'm not aware of any evidence either way, so its a moot point.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
False.

In addition to the headline story - which involves to different incidents, I might add - we are given these three accounts:


And this isn't counting the countless negative reviews on Yelp by black reviewers claiming they were denied entry over a necklace or particular brands of boots and getting the impression of racial discrimination, many of which predate this article.
See, headline story isn't that persuasive that there's anything but one racist bitch at the pool, the series of yelp reviews, that pretty much convinces me this is a racist business.

Edit to add, I think this is a great case to actually publicize. You've got the video to personalize and evidence of a pattern. Then follow it up with similar patterns elsewhere.

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Old 13th July 2018, 11:41 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Lumping paper boy in with Socks in the Pool really waters down the impact of Socks in the Pool
Not in the least.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
and gives cover to those that want to ignore the problem.
These are the exact same arguments people make for why women for instance shouldn't say anything when they feel they have been sexually harassed or assaulted. The people who want to ignore the problem will ignore it regardless of whether any individual story gives them "cover" or not. Like with the case of misogynists, using "would racism-deniers accept this story as proof of racism" as the metric of whether or not an incident is worthy of publicity is absurdly self-defeating.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:50 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not in the least.



These are the exact same arguments people make for why women for instance shouldn't say anything when they feel they have been sexually harassed or assaulted. The people who want to ignore the problem will ignore it regardless of whether any individual story gives them "cover" or not. Like with the case of misogynists, using "would racism-deniers accept this story as proof of racism" as the metric of whether or not an incident is worthy of publicity is absurdly self-defeating.
It most certainly DOES water down the example of the real racist events. Paper boy of any color taking stuff off of a porch would make most reasonable people wonder about whether shenanigans were afoot. Sock guy was clearly, IMHO, being discriminated against. As aspiring good neighbors, people are told to keep an eye on their neighbors property (local community watches, whether organized or not). I don't see a problem with getting a little clarification as to why someone that wasn't clearly recognized was removing items from my neighbors property.

These two examples aren't in the same neighborhood, league, or sport.
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:25 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not in the least.
Obviously, I disagree.
Quote:


These are the exact same arguments people make for why women for instance shouldn't say anything when they feel they have been sexually harassed or assaulted. The people who want to ignore the problem will ignore it regardless of whether any individual story gives them "cover" or not. Like with the case of misogynists, using "would racism-deniers accept this story as proof of racism" as the metric of whether or not an incident is worthy of publicity is absurdly self-defeating.
A. I don't think we should make easy for them. Also, I think we should ask is, "What would I think if I wasn't already convinced." The paper boy is not convincing, nor is the BBQ thing, they are both plausible explain by things other than racism. I'm suggesting, limit yourself to more clear examples, and always add actual data.

B. I think this is rather defeatist. Again, whats the point of publicizing them at all if it isn't trying to change minds?
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:43 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
It most certainly DOES water down the example of the real racist events. Paper boy of any color taking stuff off of a porch would make most reasonable people wonder about whether shenanigans were afoot. Sock guy was clearly, IMHO, being discriminated against.
"Clearly" to you. But the incident at that pool - and indeed, any other recent incident held as an example of racism, regardless of how obvious or not - can be and of course has been depicted as unconvincing and weak by some. The person confronting the man with the socks, asserted a non-racist motive and there are people who accept that and argue in his defense.

I'm not convinced there is an actual danger that any "reasonable person", even one who dismisses for instance the newspaper carrier story as completely innocuous, would be more dismissive of a more "clear" example - for instance the pool story - as a consequence of the "weaker" newspaper story's getting traction.
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:58 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Also, I think we should ask is, "What would I think if I wasn't already convinced." The paper boy is not convincing, nor is the BBQ thing, they are both plausible explain by things other than racism.
This is rather silly and circular, though. When a person who has been convinced asks themselves "what would I think if I wasn't already convinced", the obvious correct answer is "I would become convinced", since that (historically speaking) is exactly how it happened with them.

Again, every one of these stories can be "plausibly" explained away as non-racist incidents by some. That fact those people exist is as useless a metric to the worth of the story as the fact that some people exist who are deaf and therefore physically incapable of hearing it.
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:58 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Clearly" to you. But the incident at that pool - and indeed, any other recent incident held as an example of racism, regardless of how obvious or not - can be and of course has been depicted as unconvincing and weak by some. The person confronting the man with the socks, asserted a non-racist motive and there are people who accept that and argue in his defense.

I'm not convinced there is an actual danger that any "reasonable person", even one who dismisses for instance the newspaper carrier story as completely innocuous, would be more dismissive of a more "clear" example - for instance the pool story - as a consequence of the "weaker" newspaper story's getting traction.
In my opinion its more of if there are enough of the one, they won't pay attention to the other. That and folks have very selective memories, given something to remember that is easily dismissed and they will remember that if they are so inclined. I'd say, don't give them that, make it harder for them to both deny and think of themselves as honest non racist people.

We have a pool of videos and cases we can use, I'd suggest limiting it to the stuff that is relatively undeniable.

Some of this boils down to whether you think there are enough people that aren't convinced but can be to matter.
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:04 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is rather silly and circular, though. When a person who has been convinced asks themselves "what would I think if I wasn't already convinced", the obvious correct answer is "I would become convinced", since that (historically speaking) is exactly how it happened with them.

Again, every one of these stories can be "plausibly" explained away as non-racist incidents by some. That fact those people exist is as useless a metric to the worth of the story as the fact that some people exist who are deaf and therefore physically incapable of hearing it.
So, what do you think of the paper boy story? Do you think that is a worthy example of racist behavior? Do you think that my belief that it actually an example of perfectly reasonable behavior regardless of the race of those involved is denial on my part?
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:36 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, a lie. The first LWB thread I commented on was That Starbucks Thing. I opined consistently from the start that the manager appeared racist and discriminated against the men (the cops were just being cops, though).
Wow, you really went out on a limb with the Starbucks episode. Virtually everyone, even racists, accepted that as a racist thing. But, the cops were just being cops? Way to go out on a limb there.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
On a skeptical forum, though, is looking at things critically really such a faux pas?
Yep, there's that fig leaf.


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, I see what you did. You walked my position around and used quotes around the new place you took it. That's arguing in bad faith in a nutshell.

I'm sure you will handwave this, but I am trying to be fair and critical. Lying about my words...is not.
Yeah, let's look at the quotes. I hate arguments about arguments, but here we are...

Fine, let's see the lie(s):

Originally Posted by Thermal
Now, most of the time when the more subtle 'drip drip drip' racism is going down, the cameras will not be rolling. So when the cameras do catch something, however weak, the Tumblr/SJW crowd pounces on it. That's where these threads come in. The issue is not trying to explain away the individual cases, like lung cancer in cigarette smokers. The issue is that the threads that have been captured on video and posted are not representative of the problem. So what, you ask?
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool
No, I don't ask "so what?" I respond that no individual event is representative of the whole. There is no such event. This event isn't what all racism looks like, it's what this event looks like. It's how racism sometimes rears it's ugly face.
Originally Posted by Thermal
Ya kinda did.
No. You specifically asked the question for me. Now you explain...
Originally Posted by Thermal
You said (paraphrasing) 'they are not great examples, but they make the point'. My belabored argument is that no, they really don't.
* Below for My actual point.

But, let us not forget what I actually said, again:
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool
I respond that no individual event is representative of the whole. There is no such event. This event isn't what all racism looks like, it's what this event looks like. It's how racism sometimes rears it's ugly face.

Next Lie...
Originally Posted by Thermal
Well, let's assume that there is some imbecile out there who is on the fence about whether racism exists. I know, implausible stupidity, but please humor me. They read one of these LWB threads. Say, Mowing the Lawn While Black. What would their takeaway be? Honestly, now. They would likely say, 'wait, you call that racism? My kids had the neighborhood get-off-my-lawn crazy lady call the cops on them twice this year. If this is what is considered racism, then racism is not a thing'. And this is what I keep posting about: these well-meaning SJW's are shooting themselves in the foot by churning up a Twitter frenzy about these piss-poor examples. Racist behavior is going to end up being dismissed as whining about everyday BS, and that is counterproductive to the ends. Does that make any sense to you?
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool
You start with "we're trying to convince people who are on the fence" and claim they don't exist, so sure, trying to convince no one of something is unproductive. So, perhaps it's something different?
Originally Posted by Thermal
Hold up: I said what, now? With quotes, no less? Can you refresh my memory where you pulled that quote? Clairvoyance doesn't count, nor does taking my position for a walk.
Racism Fence Sitters are to you implausible, to me non-existent, which honestly seem to be the same sentiment.

Yep, you nailed it again. I'm hand waving away your bad faith arguments.



* My actual point: Paraphrased or not, is NOT that 'they are not great examples but they make my point.'

As examples of demonstrating unambiguously that Racism still exists and is a motivator of horrible events, these are indeed poor examples. I can't speak to why people are posting these episodes, or why they find them compelling.
These episodes are illustrative of the fact that for people of color, Racism is about more that the Country changing events that occur every few months, but about the daily indignities that until the advent of personal cameras, were simply stories told by people of color, that other people questioned the veracity of the story, or questioned that it was racism, or questioned that it really isn't that big of a deal.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:42 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
In my opinion its more of if there are enough of the one, they won't pay attention to the other. That and folks have very selective memories, given something to remember that is easily dismissed and they will remember that if they are so inclined. I'd say, don't give them that, make it harder for them to both deny and think of themselves as honest non racist people.
Well - again, as often as people invoke this concern, not just in the case of racism but many other social justice issues, I'm just not convinced it's a genuine problem that describes anything that happens in the real world. Racist people will dismiss or ignore everything no matter how "strong" it is; so it seems a quaint notion to me that we should concern ourselves with making an effort to only pay attention incidents that we imagine they would have a "harder time" inevitably dismissing.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Some of this boils down to whether you think there are enough people that aren't convinced but can be to matter.
Convinced of what, exactly? That racial discrimination exists and occurs with unacceptable frequency? Quite frankly I'm skeptical that in 2018 there are people who can claim in good faith that they are undecided about whether that is true. They either believe it or they don't. And of the ones who don't, I likewise find it highly dubious that any of them can claim that they find that it is plausible, but they are merely unconvinced and are waiting for "better evidence" with any degree of intellectual honesty.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:43 PM   #148
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An awful lengthy argument between people who seem to largely agree on the basics.

Anyway, I'll throw this into the mix. (This is from memory, so it might not be entirely right.)

The other day, I was listening to NPR as I was driving. They were doing a piece where they talked to the founder of a chain of restaurants called "Busboys and Poets." ( https://www.busboysandpoets.com/about/ ) Working in the restaurant industry, he had noticed that to a large extent people of different races did not frequent the same restaurants. A specific goal of his restaurant was to have a mixed clientele where people from different groups would mingle and interact.

To accomplish this, he needed to figure out why. He concluded there were a number of cues that made people feel welcome or unwelcome at a restaurant. He also noticed that the same cues are often interpreted differently by people of different races. The example I remember has to do with seating. If the restaurant is empty or nearly empty and the hostess seats a customer in a table in the back away from the window he said that white customers might see that as a positive: a secluded table with more privacy but that black customers may see it as "Why are you sticking me back here? Are you putting me in a corner where other customers won't notice me?" Recognizing this, he wanted his staff to be aware that different groups may see things differently, but he also didn't want them treating people of different races differently. His solution in this particular thing was to ask the customers where they would like to sit.

So that was a long way of saying that people interpret things through the lens of their own experiences. Things that seem routine and normal to white people may appear to be obviously racially motivated to people of color. It is difficult for either side to see that what is obvious to them is not necessarily obvious to others.

A white person may see "possibly racism possible not" and file it as "likely not." A black or Hispanic person may see "possibly racism possible not" and file it as "probably racism" based on their experiences.

So...to the argument... Do ambiguous cases make good case studies to illustrate the point? I don't have a good answer to that. Most racism is subtle and often by people who don't even think they are acting in a racist manner. It's kind of rare when someone blatantly cites race as the motivation for their actions. So most cases are ambiguous on some level. But depending on your outlook, they may be blatently obvious examples.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:58 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well - again, as often as people invoke this concern, not just in the case of racism but many other social justice issues, I'm just not convinced it's a genuine problem that describes anything that happens in the real world. Racist people will dismiss or ignore everything no matter how "strong" it is; so it seems a quaint notion to me that we should concern ourselves with making an effort to only pay attention incidents that we imagine they would have a "harder time" inevitably dismissing.

Convinced of what, exactly? That racial discrimination exists and occurs with unacceptable frequency? Quite frankly I'm skeptical that in 2018 there are people who can claim in good faith that they are undecided about whether that is true. They either believe it or they don't. And of the ones who don't, I likewise find it highly dubious that any of them can claim that they find that it is plausible, but they are merely unconvinced and are waiting for "better evidence" with any degree of intellectual honesty.
There not much to say then, we seem to disagree over the initial premise and I'm not aware of an evidence based way to convince you of my perspective. Do you think there's any point of publicizing the videos then? It seems you don't think they will convince anyone of anything.

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Old 13th July 2018, 09:22 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
False.

In addition to the headline story - which involves to different incidents, I might add - we are given these three accounts:
You're right, those are there, one from 2018, one from 2017, and one from 2016. The article also states that no one has ever filed a complaint against the Varsity. However, my cel was not loading properly as I said, and I concede that the three stories are there.

Quote:
And this isn't counting the countless negative reviews on Yelp by black reviewers claiming they were denied entry over a necklace or particular brands of boots and getting the impression of racial discrimination, many of which predate this article.
Not exactly countless yelp reviews. From page one: The very first black man who appears on the review page, Michael A, says "Me and my bros got right in every weekend, I don't know what these people are complaining about. It's funny that usually you only see NEGATIVE reviews on most internet applications and review services. I'm thinking that maybe it's more than just how you look - your piss poor attitudes may have something to do with it." Consider the highlighted for a sec, if you please. Might he have a point, or no, it's not possible?

The next black man, Lamar S, says "This place was ok. The food was typical bar food and the service was extra slow..." and gives a mediocre review.

An apparently white reviewer, Steve E, said they wouldn't let him in because he had a neck tattoo.

True, there are accusations of racism all over, too. But might it also be the vibe you give off, rather than your color, that the bouncers look out for?
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Old 13th July 2018, 09:42 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
...Yep, you nailed it again. I'm hand waving away your bad faith arguments.
I asked you to cite where you quoted me as saying "we're trying to convince people who are on the fence". You now claim it was when I said "let's assume that there is some imbecile out there who is on the fence about whether racism exists." One of these statements is not like the other.


Quote:
* My actual point: Paraphrased or not, is NOT that 'they are not great.' examples but they make my point.'

As examples of demonstrating unambiguously that Racism still exists and is a motivator of horrible events, these are indeed poor examples. I can't speak to why people are posting these episodes, or why they find them compelling.
These episodes are illustrative of the fact that for people of color, Racism is about more that the Country changing events that occur every few months, but about the daily indignities that until the advent of personal cameras, were simply stories told by people of color, that other people questioned the veracity of the story, or questioned that it was racism, or questioned that it really isn't that big of a deal.
OK, you have me confused now. Please tell me if I have this right:

1. We agree that racism exists, in obvious and subtle forms.
2. We agree that these LWB threads are poor examples of demonstrating unambiguously that racism exists and is a motivator of horrible behavior.
3. We agree that racism is often expressed with subtle indignities that the camera rarely caught before the advent of cel phones.
4. We agree that we see no clear reason why these LWB stories are posted, and why they are found to be compelling.

So.

What are we arguing about?
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Old 14th July 2018, 07:03 AM   #152
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Slithering away from the one truth, hiding from the other... You should be ashamed. Of course, you should have been ashamed for much more before this.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
OK, you have me confused now. Please tell me if I have this right:
Rest assured, you haven't had anything right for a very long time.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
1. We agree that racism exists, in obvious and subtle forms.
Do we?. One of us is focused on explaining away the subtle forms.

It's like saying we both agree Bigfoot does not exist, but then you try to prove it does exist.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
2. We agree that these LWB threads are poor examples of demonstrating unambiguously that racism exists and is a motivator of horrible behavior.
Wow, the stories that go on in your head... it must be a wild ride.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
3. We agree that racism is often expressed with subtle indignities that the camera rarely caught before the advent of cel phones.
WTF? If we agreed on this, you wouldn't be working so hard to explain them away as NOT racism. After all, they keep happening to you... and your White!
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
4. We agree that we see no clear reason why these LWB stories are posted, and why they are found to be compelling.
WT Actual F?. You are so far removed from reality that... What color is the sky in your world?

Enjoy what must be a miserable life.
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Old 14th July 2018, 09:20 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Do we?. One of us is focused on explaining away the subtle forms.

It's like saying we both agree Bigfoot does not exist, but then you try to prove it does exist.
I think it's more like you both agree bears exist, but then when someone shows a video of an animal taken at night he says it might be a dog and it's not quite clear if it's a bear or not.

Now you might come back and say "yes, but the bear in the video is standing next to a car and it's taller than the car!" or something. I'm not trying to make an analogy that implies which of you is correct, but rather simply that his disputing particular examples of racism in no way implies that he disputes the general fact of racism.
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Old 14th July 2018, 09:55 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From page one: The very first black man who appears on the review page, Michael A, says "Me and my bros got right in every weekend, I don't know what these people are complaining about. It's funny that usually you only see NEGATIVE reviews on most internet applications and review services. I'm thinking that maybe it's more than just how you look - your piss poor attitudes may have something to do with it." Consider the highlighted for a sec, if you please. Might he have a point, or no, it's not possible?
Uhhh....try "not"? Considering the man's only insight into these individuals' attitudes is a single complaint on a yelp page that isn't particularly shrill.
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:25 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think it's more like you both agree bears exist, but then when someone shows a video of an animal taken at night he says it might be a dog and it's not quite clear if it's a bear or not.

Now you might come back and say "yes, but the bear in the video is standing next to a car and it's taller than the car!" or something. I'm not trying to make an analogy that implies which of you is correct, but rather simply that his disputing particular examples of racism in no way implies that he disputes the general fact of racism.
I like this analogy so I'm going to beat it to death.

Its really like two pole agree that bears exist, and they probably exist in LA, Denver, and NY. Then you produce a video that is clearly a bear in LA, maybe a bear or a dog in Denver and clearly a dog in NY and say, we really need to do something about bears in NY. Well, i might believe there are bears in NY but I'm not dismissing the video of a bear in LA when I say, we should really just concentrate on the videos that clearly show bears and probably the data about bear attacks rather than the videos of dogs and maybe bears.
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:43 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I like this analogy so I'm going to beat it to death.

Its really like two pole agree that bears exist, and they probably exist in LA, Denver, and NY. Then you produce a video that is clearly a bear in LA, maybe a bear or a dog in Denver and clearly a dog in NY and say, we really need to do something about bears in NY. Well, i might believe there are bears in NY but I'm not dismissing the video of a bear in LA when I say, we should really just concentrate on the videos that clearly show bears and probably the data about bear attacks rather than the videos of dogs and maybe bears.
I like it too, it's very appropriate. Here's how recent exchanges went:

Poster A: We agree bears exist, from the huge, obvious grizzlys down to smaller, everyday black bears.
Poster B: But you dispute that this grainy picture of a hairy something in the woods is a bear. You're...a bear hunter!
Poster A: ... no, it's just that that pic is not clear, it's dark and there is a lot of foliage in the way. It could just as well be a small cat, or a large hairy man. I don't think it screams 'I'm a bear'. Other pics certainly are, but this one doesn't clearly show one.
Poster B: LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU! BEAR HUNTER BEAR HUNTER BEAR HUNTER!
Poster A: *listens to Twilight Zone theme in the background, perhaps played on kazoos and performed by black bears of their own arrangement*
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:45 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
There's a difference between systemic racism having no effect on any specific interaction and us not being able to tell which interactions it's having an effect on.
It is almost as if you get my point.
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:56 AM   #158
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I thought of another analogy.
Global warming, you can't say any specific weather related event is caused by AGW but you can say that the pattern of weather events becoming more extreme is. As a result it is counter productive to say, "another hurricane, AGW" or "Droughts in the US West, AGW". That doesn't deny that any specific event is made worse by AGW just that there isn't a way to make that connection directly.

Just as there often isn't a way to directly tie a specific event to racism(though often its pretty clear). In both case, I think advertising the ambiguous events as though they are clear is counter productive. A moot point to be sure, but even if they aren't counter productive, those that promote them can't seem to identify a reason to do so.
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