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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Allais Effect , Dark Flow , relativity , Theory of Relativity

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Old 17th July 2018, 05:37 AM   #3481
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
I am saying that:
  1. an observer on earth will see the moon orbiting the earth.
  2. an observer on moon will see the earth orbiting the moon
  3. both relative to the starry sky
  4. both regardless whether the observer (on the north pole) is rotating or not.

The logical point is both cannot be right, - none of these are really orbiting each other.
Both are victims for an illusion
So are many here at the forum too.
Please take the following test and report back:

https://www.123test.com/spatial-reasoning-test/

Your backpedaling and efforts at retconning your comical boner are amusing, but accomplish nothing other than highlight your inability to admit you were wrong to begin with. If you cannot admit you were wrong on this point, it's no wonder you're incapable of letting go of the colossal blunders in your physics themed fan-fiction.
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Old 17th July 2018, 05:53 AM   #3482
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
+/-1 a day or 2 is total irrelavant


BS, the moon is NOT rotating.


BS, the moon is NOT rotating.


BS, the moon is NOT rotating. Soon my pie will begin to boil if you keep saying such nonsense.
I was 7½ when I understood the difference between rotation and orbiting, - I guess that a problem for you to understand the difference right ?
Your pie?

Rotational period of the moon: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=rotational+period+of+the+moon

Otherwise, how do you imagine we always see the same side of the moon?

Hans
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Old 17th July 2018, 05:56 AM   #3483
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
BS
from the pole of the Moon you can always see the Earth, and from here it will indeed look like the Earth is orbiting the Moon, - relative to the starry sky.
Wherever Earth is in sight on the moon, it will always be in sight. Which means on half the surface.

But by now, I assume you are merely trolling. All else would be pure comedy.

Hans
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Old 17th July 2018, 06:12 AM   #3484
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Wherever Earth is in sight on the moon, it will always be in sight. Which means on half the surface.

But by now, I assume you are merely trolling. All else would be pure comedy.

Hans
Bjarne's rhetorical style reminds me of this video:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 17th July 2018, 07:00 AM   #3485
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But he's right, relative to star sky, ignoring Moon rotation, Earth does 'orbit' Moon. I think he means that from the start, he just failed (till the last post) to explain it properly.
Ignoring any body rotation, they both orbit common center of gravity, and relative to each other the other body 'orbits' the first one. There is no conflict in it, as long as you add 'relative to each other, and ignoring rotation'. The convention is to say lighter body in pair orbits the heavier one, especially when the center of gravity of the system lies under surface of the heavier body, so without adding anything, Moon orbits Earth, period.
But still, relative to Moon, ignoring rotation, in Solar system coordinate system, the Earth does orbit Moon.
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Old 17th July 2018, 07:02 AM   #3486
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Edit: Duplicate .. for some reason ?

Last edited by Dr.Sid; 17th July 2018 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:05 AM   #3487
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Otherwise, how do you imagine we always see the same side of the moon?

Hans
irrelevant for this context
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:14 AM   #3488
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
irrelevant for this context
Explain how the fact that the moon always has the same side towards Earth is irrelevant for the question of whether the moon is rotating.

Hans
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:31 AM   #3489
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Explain how the fact that the moon always has the same side towards Earth is irrelevant for the question of whether the moon is rotating.

Hans
A full deck has 52 cards.

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Old 17th July 2018, 01:44 PM   #3490
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Thumbs down A "relative to the starry sky" lie when that is not in his posts until later

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
You don't know what this mean ""relative to the starry sky"" do you ?
Replies to
17 July 2018 Bjarne: A lie that we would see the Earth orbiting the Moon from the Moon when we would see the Earth at a single position.
with
18 July 2018 Bjarne: A "relative to the starry sky" lie when that is not in his posts until later

No "sky" or "starry" yesterday. We would see the Earth moving against the starry sky because the Earth is in orbit around the Sun. The Earth does not orbit the Moon because it is the heavier body and the barycenter is inside the Earth. The Earth wobbles because of the Moon.
18 July 2018 Bjarne: Ignorance that we see the Earth moving against the stars only because the Moon makes the Earth wobbles (the Earth also orbits the Sun).

We would see the Earth moving against the stars and conclude that it is in orbit around the Sun. We would detect a wobble and conclude that the Earth is not orbiting the Moon.

Last edited by Reality Check; 17th July 2018 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 17th July 2018, 02:09 PM   #3492
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
BS, the moon is NOT rotating.
Even English as a second language cannot excuse this very ignorant statement. But just in case:

Bjarne: Rotating means spinning on an interior axis. If you turn 360 degrees, you are rotating. The Earth rotates to produce day and night.
This is not the same as orbit which is an object being in a path around a central, external axis. If you go on a carousel, you are on an orbit around the center of the carousel. Earth obits around the Sun and so we have years.

The Moon is tidally locked. The Moon presents one face to the Earth. To do that the Moon has to rotate so that face is always toward the Earth. The Moon rotates 360 degrees in each orbit.

The Tidal locking Wikipedia article has a nice graphic showing that the Moon has to rotate to show only one face to the Earth.

Last edited by Reality Check; 17th July 2018 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 17th July 2018, 03:11 PM   #3493
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Last person I saw that claimed the moon does not rotate was Nancy Lieder. Just sayin'.
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Old 17th July 2018, 03:32 PM   #3494
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The Theory of Relativity will begin to fall apart in 2016/2017 - Part II

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Last person I saw that claimed the moon does not rotate was Nancy Lieder. Just sayin'.


I looked her up. I was not disappointed. A1, first class nuttery.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/ZetaTalk

I wonder how many of her beliefs Bjarne shares.

Wait, could Bjarne be a sock puppet for Nancy?!?!

Nah. From what I’ve read she lacks the patience for a long con like that.
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Last edited by halleyscomet; 17th July 2018 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 17th July 2018, 06:46 PM   #3495
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I looked her up. I was not disappointed. A1, first class nuttery.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/ZetaTalk

I wonder how many of her beliefs Bjarne shares.

Wait, could Bjarne be a sock puppet for Nancy?!?!

Nah. From what I’ve read she lacks the patience for a long con like that.
I assume there was supposed to be a /sarcasm tag there at the end....
I seriously doubt there are many that have been on the same wacko idea as long as nancy!

eta
this link no longer works but she apparently did post at the old jref before it even had become jref! (this link came from the old bad astro site and was posted by Phil himself so I have no doubts it did exist at the time)
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=17862

I first came across her in 2002, and she had been at zetababble for over 5 years by that stage, and she is STILL at it today....
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Last edited by Dabop; 17th July 2018 at 06:55 PM. Reason: eta
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:05 PM   #3496
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Even English as a second language cannot excuse this very ignorant statement. But just in case:

Bjarne: Rotating means spinning on an interior axis. If you turn 360 degrees, you are rotating. The Earth rotates to produce day and night.
This is not the same as orbit which is an object being in a path around a central, external axis. If you go on a carousel, you are on an orbit around the center of the carousel. Earth obits around the Sun and so we have years.

The Moon is tidally locked. The Moon presents one face to the Earth. To do that the Moon has to rotate so that face is always toward the Earth. The Moon rotates 360 degrees in each orbit.

The Tidal locking Wikipedia article has a nice graphic showing that the Moon has to rotate to show only one face to the Earth.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12

Last edited by kmortis; 18th July 2018 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:10 PM   #3497
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Explain how the fact that the moon always has the same side towards Earth is irrelevant for the question of whether the moon is rotating.

Hans
Rotation of the Earth or the Moon is irrelevant , to decide whether the Moon, - the Earth, - both , - or none of these, - really is / are orbiting each other, - or whether this only is a an apparent illusion.
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Old 18th July 2018, 01:48 AM   #3498
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Rotation of the Earth or the Moon is irrelevant , to decide whether the Moon, - the Earth, - both , - or none of these, - really is / are orbiting each other, - or whether this only is a an apparent illusion.
Actually, it is not irrelevant. But we don't need to decide. It is an incontrovertible fact that the moon orbits Earth.

Hans
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Old 18th July 2018, 05:56 AM   #3499
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Exclamation In which Bjarne ignorantly insists reality has no impact on perception

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Rotation of the Earth or the Moon is irrelevant , to decide whether the Moon, - the Earth, - both , - or none of these, - really is / are orbiting each other, - or whether this only is a an apparent illusion.
That's right ladies and gentlemen. Bjarne is actually claiming discussion of how the Earth and Moon move relative to each other is irrelevant in determining how that motion might look from one body or the other.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:08 AM   #3500
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Deleted, double-post

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Old 18th July 2018, 08:09 AM   #3501
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Just to be pedantic, the Moon and Earth both rotate around a common CoG. IIRC, that's outside the volume of either the Earth or the Moon.

But if you must pick one to say it's orbiting, the CoG is MUCH closer to the Earth than the Moon.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:33 AM   #3502
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just to be pedantic, the Moon and Earth both rotate around a common CoG. IIRC, that's outside the volume of either the Earth or the Moon.
It's not outside the Earth, it's within the Earth's mantle.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:36 AM   #3503
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I looked her up. I was not disappointed. A1, first class nuttery.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/ZetaTalk

I wonder how many of her beliefs Bjarne shares.

Wait, could Bjarne be a sock puppet for Nancy?!?!

Nah. From what I’ve read she lacks the patience for a long con like that.
Yep, industrial wingnuttery. She even bought a ban on godlikeproductions, which takes some doing. These days, she operates from a Ning site with closed membership. There are not many members.

Nevertheless, the parallels with Bjarnes notions are striking. In Nancy's delusion, planet X was going to swing by earth and cause apocalypse in 2003...errr 2009...err 2012...err some unspecified time in the future. Like Bjarne and his relativity schtick. And like Bjarne, she insisted that the moon does not rotate at all despite all the evidence to the contrary. Boy, that one generated some flame wars. In the end, she mooched off to the Ning site where she operates a walled garden of obscurity for those unhappy few dumb enough to give her the least time. I suspect that Bjarne's ideas will suffer the same fate, isolated to some obscure outpost of the intertubes. There is one key difference though. Nancy has followers.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:23 AM   #3504
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Mod InfoThis thread has obtained so much mass, it is starting to effect the space-time continuum. Please use Part III.
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