ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 27th July 2018, 07:01 AM   #361
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,508
You really can't parody this.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 07:04 AM   #362
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,757
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And yes, I have an idea as to how the cell tower installation might be causing it.

OK. So what's the idea?
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 07:13 AM   #363
ferd burfle
Graduate Poster
 
ferd burfle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
Posts: 1,407
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And yes, I have an idea as to how the cell tower installation might be causing it.

Um, this thread is about radio transmissions. Are you proposing that the cell tower broadcast induces the voltage you're seeing? if you think it's due to a fault in the connection to the mains or some such, that would seem to be a topic for a separate thread.
__________________
"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz
"A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba
ferd burfle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 09:38 AM   #364
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,239
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
For years we have had no problem. Cell tower gets installed. Shower gives shocks.

My first test was to put some wire down the drain and then use a meter to measure the voltage to the wall-mounted faucet. I got 52 volts AC.
That could be any number of scenarios, if you have improperly grounded or wired circuits attached to the water system for example.
(Devices can also be improperly constructed)

I think to induce a 52 volt ac in a pipe would require considerably more EM radiation than a cell tower produces.
Now if some how the cell tower's power supply is making contact with your houses system...
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

Last edited by Dancing David; 27th July 2018 at 09:39 AM.
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 09:52 AM   #365
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,522
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
It seems like I have the usual 'unusual' events once more.

The tower is up and energized and might have been the cause of a near-fatal event to our tenant who occupies an apartment over our garage.

She complained that she gets a serious electric shock after showering and turning off the water. It happens each time to her. I have started an investigation.

Is the power-up of the tower just coincidence? Or somehow "linked"?

Any ideas?
Maybe she should get an electrician in to check her wiring and make sure there is a good earth bond.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 10:19 AM   #366
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,093
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Maybe she should get an electrician in to check her wiring and make sure there is a good earth bond.
Funny enough, this is the second time Partskeptic has described an apparent earth fault.

ETA: And attributed to something unrelated.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 07:10 PM   #367
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,618
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
...My Joburg doctor faxed a prescription for a "seriously strong" antibiotic. I took the first tablet there and then at noon.

I went back to the room and lay down. I could see and feel the difference every two hours, and by the next morning, the little bit of mucus was clear. I also felt my left thumb getting more tender, also my right knee, as well as my left ankle.

Guess what I was prescribed:

A Ciprofloxacin type fluoroquinolone.


I reluctantly took the second pill the next day but did not finish the course of five pills.

The damage to those organs is now significantly worse. I almost cannot use my left thumb, and walking even to the car is hard.

And doctors say "Oh, no. It is quite safe. The tendon issue only affects young Beagle puppies."

Yeah right. Can you see that the pharmaceutical industry is hiding behind the smog of disinformation where they can say that joints deteriorate due to all sorts of injuries and old age?
Dont blame the pharmaceutical industry on the ignorance or malpractice of your doctor.

I had these antibiotics in a travel medical kit and not only did the kit instructions warn about the very real risk of tendon and muscle damage (especially for older people), but the antibiotic package had these same warnings and the travel doctor (not my regular Dr) also pointed out the risks and emphasised that they should only be used as a last resort.

No competent doctor would prescribe these without warning of the well known side affects.
No competent pharmicist would dispense these without warning of the well known side effects.
Quote:
Do you not see a possible correlation between cell towers and this antibiotic?
Even if your anecdote is an accurate depiction of event? No.
Quote:
BTW: Even if I had known what the first pill was I would have still taken it. ..
Some responsibility must be yours. Considering the litany of ailments you’ve posted here, just taking a drug without questioning its possible side affects, let alone asking what it was is just absurd, and slightly unbelievable.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 11:27 PM   #368
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5,380
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Now I have to start probing our sewer for voltage.
Perhaps someone could explain how it is possible for a voltage to exist in sewer that is firmly connected to earth. The same goes for the drain, really.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2018, 11:40 PM   #369
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,429
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
No. Some exaggeration on my part. Yes, the shocks are more than a tingle.

But all parts of the shower are connected to wet tiles and brick. She told me after the first shock, so I figured it was not fatal...

Well done.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th July 2018, 05:55 PM   #370
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
I agree that the shower shock should not be part of this thread.

The cell tower company made an illegal connection to the city electrical systems. It is likely they did not know what they were doing, and that there is a problem with the neutral connection or ground, or that the cell tower is using 48 volt AC (Nominal) as their control voltage and have improperly earthed it.

We know we have roots in a pipe break in our sewer system next to the tower. They may have "earthed" their control voltage in a such a way as to generate a voltage in the sewers.

Anyhow I will report back when the issue is resolved, as it must be.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th July 2018, 06:01 PM   #371
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Dont blame the pharmaceutical industry on the ignorance or malpractice of your doctor.

I had these antibiotics in a travel medical kit and not only did the kit instructions warn about the very real risk of tendon and muscle damage (especially for older people), but the antibiotic package had these same warnings and the travel doctor (not my regular Dr) also pointed out the risks and emphasised that they should only be used as a last resort.

No competent doctor would prescribe these without warning of the well known side affects.
No competent pharmicist would dispense these without warning of the well known side effects.
Even if your anecdote is an accurate depiction of event? No.
Some responsibility must be yours. Considering the litany of ailments you’ve posted here, just taking a drug without questioning its possible side affects, let alone asking what it was is just absurd, and slightly unbelievable.
And what option did I have considering that the penicillin was ineffective and I was getting sicker by the day? I did not finish the course.

You need to remember this is Africa. Third world countries get medicines long after they are discontinued elsewhere. I read the instructions soon after taking the pill.

Yes, you are correct in all you say. I had a choice to take the pills. I have no choice to have a cell tower next to me.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th July 2018, 06:09 PM   #372
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
Back to cell radiation.

As far as I can make out, ICNIRP and the WHO have issued statements dismissing any claims of risk. They fall back on the heating effect.

My question is:
Have they taken a couple of the more serious papers and found counter-studies which show these effects have been improperly or mistakenly studied?

Is there a paper that credibly discounts the non-ionising effects? The VGCC effects for example? Or sonic risks from pulsed MW? Is there a scientific paper that gives a balanced view of the potential risks?

So far, I am seeing the opinions of posters here that mimic the industry blanket denials. The references are to articles that are non-scientific.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2018, 02:29 AM   #373
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,429
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And what option did I have considering that the penicillin was ineffective and I was getting sicker by the day?

What about asking the god that protects you from speeding tickets to do something about it?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2018, 02:31 AM   #374
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,429
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Back to cell radiation.

As far as I can make out, ICNIRP and the WHO have issued statements dismissing any claims of risk. They fall back on the heating effect.

My question is:
Have they taken a couple of the more serious papers and found counter-studies which show these effects have been improperly or mistakenly studied?

Is there a paper that credibly discounts the non-ionising effects? The VGCC effects for example? Or sonic risks from pulsed MW? Is there a scientific paper that gives a balanced view of the potential risks?

So far, I am seeing the opinions of posters here that mimic the industry blanket denials. The references are to articles that are non-scientific.

Now you’re using the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2018, 03:05 AM   #375
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,532
The WHO statement is based on a review of all the studies that have been done, it doesn't cherry pick and describe the ones that show no cause for concern to justify its conclusion the way that woo slingers cherry pick and describe the ones that might possibly show there might possibly be damage if you squint very hard to justify theirs. Asking for the studies that show no cause for concern to be cherry picked for you is a sure sign of a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2018, 03:31 AM   #376
tusenfem
Master Poster
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,410
Okay, this is a little later than I thought, but here a little bit about what I read in the Skeptical Inquirer, issue July-August 2018

Cell Phone Radiation and Cancer: New NTP Resutls inconsistent; Random chance likely at play
By: Chrisotpher Labos and Kenneth R. Foster

From the first paragaph:
Quote:
... In 2016, they (NTP) realeased the partial findings of their study, which showed an association between cell phones and two types of canser (cardiac schwannomas and brain gliomas). The full data was relaesed 2018 and while the caridac schwannoma association remained statistically significant, the brain glioma association was seen as more equivocal.
After peer review of this the cardiac was stated to have shown "clear evidence" and the glioma "some evidence".

But this is what the test was on rats and mice, both male and female:
One control group
Three groups obtaining 1.5, 3 and 6 W/kg of RFR for 9 hours per deaz for two years, full body emersion

Then an intersting result was that:

Quote:
It is also worth noiting there were very few cases of malignant gliomas in these animals. For the animals exposed to the CDMA RFR, only the male rats showed an increase in gliomas - not the female rats or the mice of either sex.
<then some numbers>
Fiven the very small numbers, it becomes important to consider the possibility of random chance.
There is more, but it seems male rats seem to show some connection to the radiation either CDMA or GSM RFR.

Running out of time (again) but this just to let you know. Now I need to leave for a trip.
__________________
20 minutes into the future
This message is bra-bra-brought to you by z-z-z-zik zak
And-And-And I'm going to be back with you - on Network 23 after these real-real-real-really exciting messages

(Max Headroom)
follow me on twitter: @tusenfem, or follow Rosetta Plasma Consortium: @Rosetta_RPC
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2018, 04:52 AM   #377
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,429
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The WHO statement is based on a review of all the studies that have been done, it doesn't cherry pick and describe the ones that show no cause for concern to justify its conclusion the way that woo slingers cherry pick and describe the ones that might possibly show there might possibly be damage if you squint very hard to justify theirs. Asking for the studies that show no cause for concern to be cherry picked for you is a sure sign of a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works.

But the WHO statement doesn’t agree with PartSkeptic, so it must be “non-scientific”.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2018, 11:28 PM   #378
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 58,724
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Oh. What is the correct way to emphasize a point? Underline? Bold? Italicize? Other?
Italics are generally considered the most appropriate way to emphasise a point.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2018, 06:26 AM   #379
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,757
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Italics are generally considered the most appropriate way to emphasise a point.

Just to be clear here. I wasn't primarily complaining about how he emphasized his point. My primary complaint, the one that makes him appear illiterate, is his question to Pixel42. He's asking a question that implies he hasn't understand anything she said.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2018, 05:14 PM   #380
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 58,724
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Just to be clear here. I wasn't primarily complaining about how he emphasized his point. My primary complaint, the one that makes him appear illiterate, is his question to Pixel42. He's asking a question that implies he hasn't understand anything she said.
Absolutely. I was merely responding to a single question that was asked, because there's no reason not to use italics when they're available.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2018, 05:31 PM   #381
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 58,724
This came up in New Scientist magazine last week:

No, mobile phones still won’t give you brain cancer

Quote:
The supposed health risk from mobile phones is the story that will never die. The latest claim, branded an “inconvenient truth” by the Observer newspaper, is that new research shows they cause cancer in rats. But like all previous incarnations of this tale, the real truth is that the evidence has been overblown and there is nothing to worry about.
There is no scientific controversy here. It has been studied extensively, and the studies are extremely clear: non-ionising radiation is not harmful and does not cause cancer or other adverse health effects. End of story.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2018, 03:11 AM   #382
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The WHO statement is based on a review of all the studies that have been done, it doesn't cherry pick and describe the ones that show no cause for concern to justify its conclusion the way that woo slingers cherry pick and describe the ones that might possibly show there might possibly be damage if you squint very hard to justify theirs. Asking for the studies that show no cause for concern to be cherry picked for you is a sure sign of a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works.

Fine. Where is the transparency of their review?

Where can I find paper or papers or an article where the study group ranks the studies in terms of possibly true, and then gives a considered opinion on the front-runners as to why they are considered to be unreliable?

Can you not see the difference between an unbiased review and a blanket dismissal.

I can. I have been on the wrong end of a number of legal judgments in which (right honorable, his Lordship) has simply given a decision that ignores the facts of the case and the facts of the law. In case you think I am biased, their unfair decisions do not stand when appealed.

The devil is in the detail. Just one example. Why is the VGCC study wrong?
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2018, 03:15 AM   #383
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This came up in New Scientist magazine last week:

No, mobile phones still won’t give you brain cancer

There is no scientific controversy here. It has been studied extensively, and the studies are extremely clear: non-ionising radiation is not harmful and does not cause cancer or other adverse health effects. End of story.

Do you think that living in a sea of non-stop microwave radiation next to a tower that pulsates and surges is totally harmless?

Any limits of the frequency or strength or combinations or pulsations?

Oh, wait. Let me check what you wrote. Yes, you do think it is harmless. End of story.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2018, 06:45 AM   #384
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,429
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Do you think that living in a sea of non-stop microwave radiation next to a tower that pulsates and surges is totally harmless?

Argument from incredulity.

Quote:
Any limits of the frequency...

Yes, that’s the point.

Quote:
...or strength...

Stronger signals will cause more heating, but there's absolutely no reason to think that it will have different effects to heating by other means, for example from sunlight or fires.

Quote:
...or combinations or pulsations?

And no plausible reason to think that these may be harmful. Your body doesn't include a radio receiver.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2018, 05:21 PM   #385
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 58,724
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Do you think that living in a sea of non-stop microwave radiation next to a tower that pulsates and surges is totally harmless?

Any limits of the frequency or strength or combinations or pulsations?

Oh, wait. Let me check what you wrote. Yes, you do think it is harmless. End of story.
Yes, I do. It has been investigated again and again and again and again and again and again and again. And again. And every time, no link between EM fields and any kind of harm has been demonstrated.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2018, 11:28 PM   #386
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,429
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I do. It has been investigated again and again and again and again and again and again and again. And again. And every time, no link between EM fields and any kind of harm has been demonstrated.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

Because he doesn’t want a cellphone tower at the bottom of his garden.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2018, 11:31 PM   #387
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 58,724
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Because he doesn’t want a cellphone tower at the bottom of his garden.
To be fair, it might end up annoying the fairies. And you wouldn't want that.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2018, 12:08 PM   #388
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I do. It has been investigated again and again and again and again and again and again and again. And again. And every time, no link between EM fields and any kind of harm has been demonstrated.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

No link? And you say so because the "experts" say so?

Quote:
https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/201...Document/41776

Martin L. Pall
Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry and Basic Medical Sciences
Washington State University

...The 2014 Report of the Canadian Panel of Experts on Safety Code 6 accepts the ICNIRP safety standards that rest solely on avoiding heating but ignores an important literature on voltage-gated calcium channels (VGCCs) and other calcium-related effects, oxidative stress, nitric oxide and a wide range of other effects that take place at non-thermal levels.

... The Canadian Report fails to analyze thousands of studies each of which apparently falsify their position, studies widely considered to be the most important type of scientific evidence. The Report falsely claims that there is no biophysically viable mechanism by which low level effects can occur. The genotoxicity part of the Report falsifies claims of inconsistencies in the literature.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2018, 03:53 PM   #389
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,688
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Because he doesn’t want a cellphone tower at the bottom of his garden.
If he doesn't want it, can I have it? A cell tower at the bottom of my garden would awesome. Except for the garden. Can I just have the tower in lieu of a garden?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2018, 06:33 PM   #390
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 58,724
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
No link? And you say so because the "experts" say so?
If I cared to spend the time, which I don't, I could provide a hundred links to peer-reviewed papers published in reputable high impact journals. But there's not much point, because you are clinging to your false belief with ideologically unshakable fervour. There's no point. You're not interested.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2018, 08:29 PM   #391
WhatRoughBeast
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,305
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
No link? And you say so because the "experts" say so?
You really should read beyond the abstract. The body of the paper begins,

Quote:
Calcium provides an essential role in cell function and homeostasis and serves as a critical gatekeeper of membrane integrity and metabolism. A recent review (1), noted that in 2 dozen studies, calcium channel blocking drugs block a wide range of electromagnetic field (EMF) effects on cells and organisms by affecting voltage-gated calcium channels (VGCCs which are also known as voltageoperated, voltage-dependent or voltage-regulated calcium channels). Because measured effects were significantly lowered by calcium channel blocking drugs, this indicates that activation of these channels accounts, at least in part, for the wide-ranging impacts of EMF effects (1). In most but not all cases, L-type VGCCs were primarily involved. Such VGCC activation is thought to act mainly by increasing intracellular calcium ([Ca2+]i). Other considerations also support VGCCs as a major EMF target, accounting for numerous biological impacts of microwave exposures (2,3) at levels not able to produce substantial changes in temperature.
and if you then look at footnote (1-3) you find,

Quote:
1. Pall ML. Electromagnetic fields act via activation of voltage-gated calcium channels to produce beneficial or adverse effects. J Cell Mol Med (2013) 17: 958-65.
2. Pall ML. Electromagnetic field activation of voltage-gated calcium channels:role in therapeutic effects. Electromagn Biol Med (2014) Apr 8. [Epub ahead of
print]
3. Pall ML. Microwave electromagnetic fields act by activating voltage-gated calcium channels: why the current international safety standards do not predict biological hazard. Recent Res Devel Cell Biol (2014) 7: in press.
Referencing yourself is not exactly a crime, but if an author can't find anybody else to cite to support a claim, this suggests that the author's position is, shall we say, idiosyncratic. Certainly this degree of self-referencing should raise a red flag.

Last edited by WhatRoughBeast; 2nd August 2018 at 08:30 PM.
WhatRoughBeast is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2018, 11:05 PM   #392
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,532
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If I cared to spend the time, which I don't, I could provide a hundred links to peer-reviewed papers published in reputable high impact journals. But there's not much point, because you are clinging to your false belief with ideologically unshakable fervour. There's no point. You're not interested.
If he was interested he would use Google Scholar to find them himself. But then if he knew how to use Google Scholar he wouldn't be under the impression that there are "thousands" of studies which suggest possible harm when there are actually only a handful.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 06:32 PM   #393
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 58,724
Electromagnetic Fields at Work Show No Brain Tumor Risk

Quote:
A new study takes a close look at occupational exposure or electromagnetic fields (EMF), specifically radiofrequency (RF) and intermediate frequency (IF) EMF, and also show no association. The researchers individually rated workers by their exposure to radio frequency and intermediate frequency EMF, and compared 4,000 cases of either meningioma or glioma (the two most common types of brain tumor) and 5,000 controls. They found:
Overall, around 10% of study participants were exposed to RF while only 1% were exposed to IF-EMF. There was no clear evidence for a positive association between RF or IF-EMF and the brain tumors studied, with most results showing either no association or odds ratios (ORs) below 1.0. The largest adjusted ORs were obtained for cumulative exposure to RF magnetic fields (as A/m-years) in the highest exposed category (≥90th percentile) for the most recent exposure time window (1–4 years before the diagnosis or reference date) for both glioma, OR = 1.62 (95% confidence interval (CI): 0.86, 3.01) and meningioma (OR = 1.52, 95% CI: 0.65, 3.55).
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 11:01 AM   #394
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
You really should read beyond the abstract. The body of the paper begins,



and if you then look at footnote (1-3) you find,



Referencing yourself is not exactly a crime, but if an author can't find anybody else to cite to support a claim, this suggests that the author's position is, shall we say, idiosyncratic. Certainly this degree of self-referencing should raise a red flag.

I had read the paper and had seen the references. But no harm in pointing them out.

Who better to challenge the experts "certain" view than "real" expert who knows not only the science but the ways in which papers can be reviewed.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 11:13 AM   #395
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,048
Quite busy to really give answers now but just an update on the shower shock.

Once more a series of coincidences which I will not bore you with. They helped me find the problem in a matter of minutes with no equipment.

A wire feeding a light on our metal carport had touched the rusted metal and caused the earth circuit in the apartment to "go live". The drain was the real earth/ground potential. Only that circuit did not go through an earth leakage device. I will put one in. The electrician (the professional everyone trusts) could not be bothered to add a separate box to house another one like he should have. Huh, only a light circuit he probably thought.

Why did the earth go up as much as 52 volts ac? Because here in SA they steal the copper wires. Earth and neutral are the easiest. They take an underground cable, strip off the outer plastic, cut off the steel armor and sell that for scrap, then separate out the neutral copper wire, cut it and sell that.

Many places have no earthing and no neutral for quite a while.

It is possible that the illegal tower circuit cut the armor (the earth) and did not bother to connect one side to the other.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2018, 04:04 AM   #396
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,812
PartSkeptic appears to have a new ally:

Quote:
The symptoms experienced by the Cuba patients match symptoms in other people who are “electrosensitive,” according to her analysis, which relies on the JAMA study and news reports.
Scientists and doctors zap theory that microwave weapon injured Cuba diplomats (Washington Post, Sep. 6, 2018)

I have already mentioned and quoted from the Washington Post article a couple of times in the thread Alien Attack? Mass Hysteria? Conspiracy?/US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

It's interesting to see the kind of allies that the fans of the alleged microwave attacks on U.S. American embassy employees attract ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2018, 05:18 AM   #397
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,812
There are more details from the U.S. scientist Beatrice Golomb, MD, PhD, professor of medicine at University of California, San Diego School of Medicine, who claims that they symptoms of the U.S. diplomats are similar to "what has been reported for persons affected by RF/MW radiation."

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that politicians and people in general have as good an understanding of what this implies as most skeptics probably do ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.