ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 16th October 2018, 12:07 PM   #2961
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,547
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The UK has deployed partition in various parts of their former empire. It has never worked.

One might be forgiven for thinking that they might review that position in light of it's universal failure, but they won't.
Hmmmm.

Yes Prime Minister, on a new British dependency.
Quote:
We should have partitioned the island.

Like we did in India, Cyprus and Palestine?
And Ireland?

Yes, that was our invariable practice
with the colonies. It always worked.

But didn't partition always lead to civil war?


- As in India, Cyprus, Palestine and Ireland.
- Yes, but it kept them busy.

Instead of fighting other people,
they fought each other.

Yes, rather good. Saved us having a policy.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2018, 12:12 PM   #2962
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,547
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It must be nice living under that rock.

Are we in or out of the customs union? If we're out, what happens to the Irish border? Does it break the Good Friday agreement, and if so, does the IRA reform and decide it's time to start making trouble again? If we're in for two years then out, all that's happened is that the can's been kicked down the road a bit. And if we're in indefinitely, then we haven't actually left. And if none of those is acceptable and we leave without a deal, what happens ot the Irish border?

"Nothing complicated about it" is a ridiculous claim.

Dave
A point that Brexiteers seem to ignore is that it the UK is seen to break the GFA they'll have near-zero credibility when it comes to all those new agreements they expect to make.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2018, 12:15 PM   #2963
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,547
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Next March 29, at midnight, the UK will be out of the EU. No further action is required. No agreements need to be made.
So no international flights to/from the UK, electricity blackouts, shortages of food and medicine et cetera.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2018, 12:30 PM   #2964
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 12,643
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
So no international flights to/from the UK, electricity blackouts, shortages of food and medicine et cetera.
So...like what happens after a major football match, just lasting longer?

Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2018, 01:27 PM   #2965
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,209
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
So no international flights to/from the UK, electricity blackouts, shortages of food and medicine et cetera.
Let's not be hyperbolic. I am sure the EU will send humanitarian relief.
__________________
I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up.
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2018, 05:04 PM   #2966
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,522
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Hmmmm.

Yes Prime Minister, on a new British dependency.
Cyprus was partitioned by turkey invading.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2018, 09:01 PM   #2967
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,555
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It must be nice living under that rock.

Are we in or out of the customs union? If we're out, what happens to the Irish border? Does it break the Good Friday agreement, and if so, does the IRA reform and decide it's time to start making trouble again? If we're in for two years then out, all that's happened is that the can's been kicked down the road a bit. And if we're in indefinitely, then we haven't actually left. And if none of those is acceptable and we leave without a deal, what happens ot the Irish border?

"Nothing complicated about it" is a ridiculous claim.

Dave
So it's not the act of leaving that is complicated but the potential after-effects of that decision that are complicated.

Unfortunately that situation has arisen only due to the sheer incompetence of how the Brexit referendum was set up. The following rush to invoke article 50 before deciding on a coherent exit strategy that would have been acceptable to a majority of the country.

So yes, leaving the EU is complicated... but that's only because of actions/decisions of the UK.

It has very little to do with the EU and the article 50 process that's in place. That is pretty straight forward and simple.
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2018, 02:25 AM   #2968
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 8,344
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
A point that Brexiteers seem to ignore is that it the UK is seen to break the GFA they'll have near-zero credibility when it comes to all those new agreements they expect to make.
One of the aforementioned pro-Brexit cockwombles outside Downing Street yesterday was waving a sign saying, "BIN THE BACKSTOP!" The world must be such a simple place in their head.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2018, 02:28 AM   #2969
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 8,344
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Cyprus was partitioned by turkey invading.
And Palestine was hardly a solely British decision.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2018, 03:39 AM   #2970
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 836
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
The following rush to invoke article 50 before deciding on a coherent exit strategy that would have been acceptable to a majority of the country.
It took 9 months to the UK Government to file the Article 50 application. One can hardly speak of a rush. But the problem is that during this period of time nothing was indeed undertaken to set up a coherent strategy and make acceptable proposals.
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2018, 03:58 AM   #2971
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,547
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
So...like what happens after a major football match, just lasting longer?

With plenty of civil unrest. Seriously I'd expect the situation to require a significant military response, and produce levels of violence similar to Ulster in '69, if there is a "hard" exit.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2018, 03:59 AM   #2972
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,547
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Cyprus was partitioned by turkey invading.
Please complain to Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2018, 09:18 AM   #2973
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 12,643
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
With plenty of civil unrest. Seriously I'd expect the situation to require a significant military response, and produce levels of violence similar to Ulster in '69, if there is a "hard" exit.


I tried to lighten things a bit with humor...now I feel bad.

Hopefully it won't be that bad, and I wish you guys the best. I keep expecting our leader on this side of the pond to get us into a situation with similar results...so far we've been lucky (-ish).
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2018, 02:37 PM   #2974
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,093
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post


I tried to lighten things a bit with humor...now I feel bad.

Hopefully it won't be that bad, and I wish you guys the best. I keep expecting our leader on this side of the pond to get us into a situation with similar results...so far we've been lucky (-ish).
Brexit makes toast of that. UK doesn't want NI and neither does the republic.

Whichever way Brexit plays out, either the DUP or the shinners will moan and we will be right back to the 60s.

And if you think they are all disarmed, you are naive. Neither side disarmed, it was a token gesture.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2018, 07:45 AM   #2975
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,547
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post


I tried to lighten things a bit with humor...now I feel bad.

Hopefully it won't be that bad, and I wish you guys the best. I keep expecting our leader on this side of the pond to get us into a situation with similar results...so far we've been lucky (-ish).
Thankfully I'm not in the UK.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2018, 08:22 AM   #2976
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,851
For the first time in my life ever, on Saturday, I march.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2018, 08:32 AM   #2977
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,180
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
One of the aforementioned pro-Brexit cockwombles outside Downing Street yesterday was waving a sign saying, "BIN THE BACKSTOP!" The world must be such a simple place in their head.
It very much puts me in mind of a cliché divorcee, thumping the table and insisting "she's not getting a penny out of me" right before losing the house, car, kids and dog and being left with his golf clubs and no grasp of what just happened to him.

It pains me to see the howls of outrage over the notion of an extended withdrawal from those who still don't get it and have absolutely no interest in getting it.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2018, 08:35 AM   #2978
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,180
Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
It took 9 months to the UK Government to file the Article 50 application. One can hardly speak of a rush. But the problem is that during this period of time nothing was indeed undertaken to set up a coherent strategy and make acceptable proposals.
As I seem never to tire of saying, Vote Leave campaigned on a promise to the voters that there would be a new deal before Article 50 was triggered.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2018, 09:41 AM   #2979
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,558
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
For the first time in my life ever, on Saturday, I march.
Have fun. The weather forecast is good, so it should be a nice day to be out and about in London.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:58 AM   #2980
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,209
Via reddit:


Quite stark. Strong argument against FPTP, IMHO.
__________________
I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up.

Last edited by GnaGnaMan; Yesterday at 03:59 AM. Reason: added spoiler tag
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:17 AM   #2981
wobs
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hull
Posts: 1,752
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
For the first time in my life ever, on Saturday, I march.
Wish I was.
Child care demands etc. Its their future, so I may be in a strange mood tomorrow.
__________________
"To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."
wobs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:20 AM   #2982
wobs
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hull
Posts: 1,752
Food issues in the event of a no-deal:
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018...lly-looks-like

Stat that jumped out at me:
"British vets like setting up small clinics in a village somewhere and saving the family dog. Admit it. That's the image in your head when someone says the word 'vet'. They do not envision spending their career watching cow carcasses being washed down in an abattoir. The culture of veterinary checks in food is much more common in Europe, especially in Spain. EU citizens consequently make up 95% of the veterinary workforce in UK food production."

If EU vets leave (and many are), we have major issues in the coming years.
__________________
"To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."
wobs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:18 AM   #2983
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,851
Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Wish I was.
Child care demands etc. Its their future, so I may be in a strange mood tomorrow.
Circumstances may be conspiring against me.

I still have high hopes of attending.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:06 AM   #2984
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,785
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
As I seem never to tire of saying, Vote Leave campaigned on a promise to the voters that there would be a new deal before Article 50 was triggered.
I don't specifically remember that being the case but promising the literally impossible seemed to be a hallmark of the campaign so I could certainly believe it
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:30 AM   #2985
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,477
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Cyprus was partitioned by turkey invading.
Not quite the first partition. See wiki.
The Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia ... is a British Overseas Territory on the island of Cyprus. The areas, which include British military bases and installations, as well as other land, were retained by the British under the 1960 treaty of independence, signed by the United Kingdom, Greece, Turkey and representatives from the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities, which granted independence to the Crown colony of Cyprus. The territory serves an important role as a station for signals intelligence ...
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:43 AM   #2986
Safe-Keeper
Philosopher
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,001
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I have one nagging worry about this. If it turns out that the process of leaving the EU is so complicated as to be impossible in practice, then the statement that "we could leave the EU any time we want to" isn't exactly correct. Unfortunately, there's a recipriverse excluson involved here (to borrow a Douglas Adams term for something that's defined as anything other than itself); if it turns out that we can't leave the EU, then the leavers had a point that our sovereignty was limited, whereas if it turns out that we can, then it turns out that they didn't. Either way, the only possible option is the wrong one.

Dave
What seems to make it difficult is that the UK just up and left, without any idea how it would actually do so.
__________________
In choosing to support humanitarian organizations, it's best to choose those that do not have "militant wings" (Mycroft, 2013)
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:20 PM   #2987
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 8,344
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Not quite the first partition. See wiki.
The Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia ... is a British Overseas Territory on the island of Cyprus. The areas, which include British military bases and installations, as well as other land, were retained by the British under the 1960 treaty of independence, signed by the United Kingdom, Greece, Turkey and representatives from the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities, which granted independence to the Crown colony of Cyprus. The territory serves an important role as a station for signals intelligence ...
That's not partition in the sense of the programme dialogue. It was more us just deciding to keep a couple of bits, but vacating the rest.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.