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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 23rd February 2011, 07:52 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
2). I wonder what Thunder would have said if a group of Muslims with special religious needs asked for a road to be built and the Israeli government refused because it would mean trees would have to be cut down. Would he then support the Israeli government standing up for the environment and not giving in to special religious demands? Or would he rant about "evil Israeli racism"? I think we all know the answer.
I am against any govt. funds being used for religious or even anti-religious purposes.

that is unless there is also a safety element to this new request.

but if its just for religious OR anti-religious reasons, then no..that is ridiculous and violates the seperation of church and state.

does this mean I am bigoted against atheists too?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 07:59 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
very stupid question.
To which you don't know the answer. Fair enough. Could have said as much.

Quote:
in a secular state, govt. funds should not be used to build roads that have a purely religious justifation for being built.
Irrelevant. Any community could have petitioned the state to build that road, but since it was a religious community, it's now taboo and their desires (and tax money) can't be used to accommodate their collective desires. Never mind the fact it's a public road that everyone can benefit from.

Quote:
....oh, and if an Atheist organization wants a new road built, because the only existing road passes by a Church and the Atheists find this to be offensive, I would be against THAT road too.
If enough of them petition the state and pull some strings to get it built, it will get built. It's a frivolous waste of tax payer money, but it is the tax payers money, correct?

Quote:
roads should not be built for PURELY religious purposes..or for purely ANTI-religious purposes.
Roads have a way of benefiting those who use them. Roads themselves cannot be religious in nature. Would you argue that maintaining a road that houses churches, synagogues and mosques be in violation of "separation of church and state"? After all, religious observers are using those roads to be religious.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:08 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
I am against any govt. funds being used for religious or even anti-religious purposes.
The road itself is not religious.

Refusing to build this road because the people who want it are religious IS a violation of Church and State.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:11 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
Roads have a way of benefiting those who use them. Roads themselves cannot be religious in nature. Would you argue that maintaining a road that houses churches, synagogues and mosques be in violation of "separation of church and state"? After all, religious observers are using those roads to be religious.
do you believe that the govt. should be in the business of building roads for Atheists that do not pass by Synagogues, because some Atheists are offended by the sight of a Synagogue?

what if Christians want to have a new road built because the existing road passes through a Jewish neighborhood and some Christians are offended by the sight of Jews?

what if Atheists want a new road built because the existing road passes by a Christian cemetery with a large prominent cross, that they find offensive?

what if Muslims want a new road built because the existing road passes by a Holocaust memorial and some Muslims find the memorial offensive?

where does it end?

Last edited by Thunder; 23rd February 2011 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:14 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
Refusing to build this road because the people who want it are religious IS a violation of Church and State.
strawman. I am not against this road because the people are religious.

I am against the road because the JUSTIFICATION for the road is of a religious nature.

the govt. should not be building roads for purely religious or even anti-religious reasons.

Last edited by Thunder; 23rd February 2011 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:21 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
do you believe that the govt. should be in the business of building roads for [religious groups]?

where does it end?
Slippery-slope fallacy.

I would say I agree with you in principal and morality, but that is not the business of the government. To deny any of those groups their roads simply because it's desired for religious convenience is discrimination of a sort.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:24 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
strawman. I am not against this road because the people are religious.

I am against the road because the JUSTIFICATION for the road is of a religious nature.

the govt. should not be building roads for purely religious or even anti-religious reasons.
You really should learn what a strawman is.

Since the road itself is not religious (nor can it be unless it's denied to non-believers), then your argument lays solely on the fact that a public road was built for the convenience of a religious group.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:30 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
I would say I agree with you in principal and morality, but that is not the business of the government. To deny any of those groups their roads simply because it's desired for religious convenience is discrimination of a sort.
listen, if Jews...Christians...Atheists...Mormons..Buddhists. ...get togetehr and petition the city counsil for a road because they feel a road is needed, that's one thing.

but if said groups petition the govt. for a new road because they have a purely reliogious or anti-religious reason for building the road, that is a violation of the seperation of Church and State.

the govt. should only be building roads that have a purely transportational and convenience motivation. wanting to build a new road because the existing one passes by a cemetery, or a Synagogue, or a Holocaust memorial, or a Church, is a frivilous use of public dollars and not the business of the govt. if a community wants a road build for such a reason, let THEM raise the funds to pay for it.

I will state this again: I don't care if its Cohanim that desire a halakhic road, or Christians who want a road that doesn't pass by Jews, or Atheists who want a road that doesn't pass by a Church, or Muslims who want a road that doesn't pass by a Synagogue. such reasons are not appropriate for the use of govt. funds.

it doesn't matter who is making the request, or their religion..or their lack of religion. all that matters is their REASON for the request.

but if some folks find the very admirable concept of the seperation of Church & State to be "bigotry", that's not my problem nor my burden.

I can't be any clearer. and I'm done answering questions.

Last edited by Thunder; 23rd February 2011 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:43 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
listen, if Jews...Christians...Atheists...Mormons..Buddhists. ...get togetehr and petition the city counsil for a road because they feel a road is needed, that's one thing.
And progress, of a sort.

Quote:
but if said groups petition the govt. for a new road because they have a purely reliogious or anti-religious reason for building the road, that is a violation of the seperation of Church and State.
It's not a new road, per se. It's an addition to an already existing road.

Quote:
the govt. should only be building roads that have a purely transportational and convenience motivation.
And that's exactly what this road will do. Not only the group in question will be using it, remember?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:50 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
And that's exactly what this road will do. Not only the group in question will be using it, remember?
yes, the road can be used by everyone. jew & muslim, black & white, gay & straight, religious & secular.

....but that's not the issue...now is it?

the road was requested for a purely RELIGIOUS reason. that is my objection. i would have the same objection if it was requested for a purely ANTI-RELIGIOUS reason.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:56 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
the road was requested for a purely RELIGIOUS reason. that is my objection. i would have the same objection if it was requested for a purely ANTI-RELIGIOUS reason.
Could you quote the request perhaps?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:57 AM   #172
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:04 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
Could you quote the request perhaps?
read the article in the OP.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...to-go-1.343448

the trees were removed not because of plans to create a four-lane road. The plan is to pave a street for Cohanim - Jews who, according to custom, face certain restrictions such as avoiding graveyards.

"According to the document, "Tiberias is an ancient city more than 2,000 years old .... In Tiberias there are cemeteries that cover most of the area around the old city. So Cohanim do not use the roads in the center of Tiberias. The Israeli government decided to fund a project for making halakhic roads that would enable the passage of Cohanim."

Last edited by Thunder; 23rd February 2011 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:08 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
I've read it. No request by the Cohanim is made. Perhaps you linked to a different article?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:15 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
I've read it. No request by the Cohanim is made. Perhaps you linked to a different article?
hmm..I did a search and I indeed can't find an article saying that the Cohanim made an actual request.

it may be that the govt. was simply aware of the "problem", and acted on their own initiative to build a "halakhic road".

i don't consider that to be any better, though. using govt. funds just to fulfill the purely religious or anti-religious needs of a community, is a violation of the very admirable concept of the seperation of church & state.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:19 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post

i don't consider that to be any better, though. using govt. funds just to fulfill the purely religious or anti-religious needs of a community, is a violation of the very admirable concept of the seperation of church & state.
It's also about preserving the graves beneath the road (not to go around a graveyard), expanding the highway to accommodate an increase in traffic, and eventually bring in more tourism by enabling an easier way to get about the city.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:32 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
It's also about preserving the graves beneath the road (not to go around a graveyard), expanding the highway to accommodate an increase in traffic, and eventually bring in more tourism by enabling an easier way to get about the city.

the trees were removed not because of plans to create a four-lane road. The plan is to pave a street for Cohanim - Jews who, according to custom, face certain restrictions such as avoiding graveyards.

"According to the document, "Tiberias is an ancient city more than 2,000 years old .... In Tiberias there are cemeteries that cover most of the area around the old city. So Cohanim do not use the roads in the center of Tiberias. The Israeli government decided to fund a project for making halakhic roads that would enable the passage of Cohanim."
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:38 AM   #178
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http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...-road-1.118373

Quote:
The street, known as "Cohanim [Priests] Road" was built above ancient graves, and has recently been repaved in such a way that will allow cohanim to drive on it despite the biblical prohibition against their approaching a dead body.


Same author as the one you linked to. So either they're building a new road for them, or they're modifying an existing one to preserve the graves beneath it?

Quote:
"Whoever thinks only about the money going down the drain will ultimately go down the drain himself. The righteous people whose sanctity we are preserving will also bring us a livelihood. As a result of the new road, many people who had refrained from visiting the city will now visit. People will stream into the city a thousand times more than they do now, to the extent that we won't even need the external tourism of non-Jews."
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Old 23rd February 2011, 06:43 PM   #179
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What a strange little world Thunder must live in. Wherein on sundays, atheists and agnostics can drive to nudie bars on six-lane divided freeways but people going to church must either pick their way through undeveloped wilderness or be airlifted in via helicopter (at their own personal expense, of course).
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Old 23rd February 2011, 06:47 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
Same author as the one you linked to. So either they're building a new road for them, or they're modifying an existing one to preserve the graves beneath it?
this issue has been debated ad nauseum. its time for folks to do their own research rather then asking every possible question under the sun.

my opinions are known. we all have a right to them.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 06:56 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
this issue has been debated ad nauseum. its time for folks to do their own research rather then asking every possible question under the sun.

my opinions are known. we all have a right to them.
Oh oh oh, can I use one of your tricks?

How dare people ask ME for evidence to support MY claim!? Just because it was a slow news day and I couldn't find any other reason to criticize Israel doesn't mean I should have to back it up with facts! Bigots and fascists! All of you!
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Old 23rd February 2011, 08:10 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Cobalt View Post
How dare people ask ME for evidence to support MY claim!? Just because it was a slow news day and I couldn't find any other reason to criticize Israel doesn't mean I should have to back it up with facts! Bigots and fascists! All of you!

lololol!!!



but seriously, this topic now bores me. its time to move on.

Last edited by Thunder; 23rd February 2011 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 24th February 2011, 02:11 PM   #183
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Aren't we missing the main point?

There is this hotel that Jews are building in order to keep out Muslims.

Isn't this Jewish apartheid hotel more important than the many Muslim dictatorships in flames?
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Old 24th February 2011, 11:08 PM   #184
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Parky is now OUTRAGED that a religious group got something it wants -- a public road -- from the state. The state should not bow to such evil blackmail.

Funny, but when Israel wanted to build a public building next (not on) an old Muslim cemetary -- where nobody was ever buried, and on land the Waqf wished to build a parking lot on in the 1940s -- Parky was OUTRAGED at the evil Israeli government disrespecting pure, innocent religious feelings.

Parky's OUTRAGED OUTRAGOUS OUTRAGES depend solely on whether he can blame Israel (or Jews in general) for something. The excuse for the OUTRAGE is found on the fly afterwards.
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Old 25th February 2011, 06:35 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Parky is now OUTRAGED that a religious group got something it wants -- a public road -- from the state. The state should not bow to such evil blackmail.

Funny, but when Israel wanted to build a public building next (not on) an old Muslim cemetary -- where nobody was ever buried, and on land the Waqf wished to build a parking lot on in the 1940s -- Parky was OUTRAGED at the evil Israeli government disrespecting pure, innocent religious feelings.

Parky's OUTRAGED OUTRAGOUS OUTRAGES depend solely on whether he can blame Israel (or Jews in general) for something.
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Old 25th February 2011, 06:49 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Parky is now OUTRAGED that a religious group got something it wants -- a public road -- from the state. The state should not bow to such evil blackmail.
According to the author who wrote the article, the road already existed, it was just [renovated] after it was discovered there were graves beneath it. It just so happens that in doing so, it allowed the Cohanim to use it without violating their beliefs.

Last edited by IDB87; 25th February 2011 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 25th February 2011, 06:52 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
According to the author who wrote the article, the road already existed, it was just [renovated] after it was discovered there were graves beneath it. It just so happens that in doing so, it allowed the Cohanim to use it without violating their beliefs.
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Old 25th February 2011, 06:56 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
Do you have anything to say on the article I linked to earlier that spoke about rebuilding the road to preserve the graves beneath it? Or are you just going to (what amounts to) spam emoticons?
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Old 25th February 2011, 07:52 AM   #189
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"but seriously, this topic now bores me. its time to move on."
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Old 25th February 2011, 08:42 AM   #190
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Quote:
"but seriously, this topic now bores me. its time to move on."
Judging from previous experience, you'll just start another thread blaming Israel for something -- even if it's the exact opposite of what you just blamed it for now.
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Old 25th February 2011, 08:51 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Judging from previous experience, you'll just start another thread blaming Israel for something -- even if it's the exact opposite of what you just blamed it for now.
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Old 25th February 2011, 09:15 AM   #192
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Short Attention Span Theatre: From Outraged to Bored in 48 Hours!
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Old 25th February 2011, 09:37 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Short Attention Span Theatre: From Outraged to Bored in 48 Hours!
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Old 25th February 2011, 11:28 AM   #194
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http://english.themarker.com/mks-to-...-bill-1.345565

Israel to enact Communist-style wage limitations for public companies.



......and I support this measure.
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Old 25th February 2011, 12:06 PM   #195
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I think that Israel should blend into its Muslim neighborhood better.

Shoot and bomb some innocent civilians and you might make a good neighbor.

Building exclusive hotels is not sufficient.
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Old 25th February 2011, 12:12 PM   #196
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Why does the Israeli government support the settlements in the west bank?
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Old 25th February 2011, 12:12 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by boyntonstu View Post
I think that Israel should blend into its Muslim neighborhood better.

Shoot and bomb some innocent civilians and you might make a good neighbor.

Building exclusive hotels is not sufficient.
....what more is there to say?
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Old 25th February 2011, 12:16 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Why does the Israeli government support the settlements in the west bank?
For religious reasons and militaristic ones. There's no good reason for you and I to support them, however.
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Old 25th February 2011, 12:27 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Why does the Israeli government support the settlements in the west bank?
for nationalistic and religious reasons.

and because they think they are above certain international laws that they themselves have agreed to abide by.
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Old 25th February 2011, 01:43 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
for nationalistic and religious reasons.

and because they think they are above certain international laws that they themselves have agreed to abide by.
"certain international laws"

Link?

"they themselves have agreed to abide by"

Link?

Who enforces international Laws?

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