General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

I said "hear hear", because for the most part I agree with him.

Bikerdruid's use of the term bigot was an unfounded attack on Virus' character. What he said was in no way bigoted, and it was quite the slander to label him a bigot because of it. You saying "Here here" shows your ignorance on the definition and usage of the term.

That's all.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

You saying "Here here" shows your ignorance on the definition and usage of the term.

That's all.

so that's it? you're not going to answer my question?

you're just going to claim that its not bigoted to accuse Islam of inspiring violence & racism...

....but you will NOT say whether its bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring theft, dishonesty, treason, cheating, and racism?

wow. talk about an evasion.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

so that's it? you're not going to answer my question?

you're just going to claim that its not bigoted to accuse Islam of inspiring violence & racism...

....but you will NOT say whether its bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring theft, dishonesty, treason, cheating, and racism?

wow. talk about an evasion.

*ETA post #279

There is something in the teachings of Judiasm that enables the nutbag settlers of the West Bank to commit the crimes they do. If that's where we start with the faults of Judiasm, I would say it's not off to a good start.

Shelo asani goy; shelo asani aved; shelo asani isha

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

There is something in the teachings of Judiasm that enables the nutbag settlers of the West Bank to commit the crimes they do. If that's where we start with the faults of Judiasm, I would say it's not off to a good start.

Shelo asani goy; shelo asani aved; shelo asani isha

Ok, I am gonna just accept this means that you do NOT find it bigotry to accuse Judaism of promoting theft, lies, racist, treason, etc etc.

I mean, since you won't answer the question with a simple yes or no, what else can I do?

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

I mean, since you won't answer the question with a simple yes or no, what else can I do?

For starters you can link to someone who actually claims "It is OK for Jews to lie to goys, to steal from them, to hold dual citizen ship, and to commit treason."

And you can also disprove it by quoting the relevant passages of the Torrah, or perhaps an authority that debunks those claims.

But yes, that is something an Anti-Semite would say. It'd be very easy to disprove, wouldn't it?

In Islam, it is taught that someone who dies in jihad will become a martyr and go straight to heaven - this enables members of poor Islamic societies to gravitate towards martyrdom. How is it bigotry to point that out?

*ETA

Lying and stealing, even if it were to be promoted in the Torrah or other religious texts, would be near impossible to separate from human nature; it is something, after all, that we all have done and can do rather easily. To say that Judaism enables this is quite the stretch, even if it's written down.

With Treason - I haven't heard of Jews regularly committing treason. Have you? Dual-citizenship is along the same lines as treason if you are trying to prove it.

For a Muslim fanatic to destroy themselves and murder dozens of others on God's command (see: Martydom in the Quran) is evil and goes against human nature (self preservation), and while not even close to all Muslims would ever consider doing it, it is not bigotry to point out that it is encouraged in the Quran.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

But yes, that is something an Anti-Semite would say.

thank you. I am glad that we agree that claiming Judaism teaches/motivates to be racist, thieves, cheats, and traitors, is indeed a bigoted statement and bigoted attitude.

Originally Posted by IDB87

In Islam, it is taught that someone who dies in jihad will become a martyr and go straight to heaven - this enables members of poor Islamic societies to gravitate towards martyrdom. How is it bigotry to point that out?

you are moving the goalposts. first you claimed that:

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior, it is not bigotry to point that fact out."

..then you stated:

"No, saying all Muslims are violent racists and commit negative behavior is bigotry. Saying that Islam enables (and often encourages) people to do so is not."

..and now you're saying:

"In Islam, it is taught that someone who dies in jihad will become a martyr and go straight to heaven - this enables members of poor Islamic societies to gravitate towards martyrdom. How is it bigotry to point that out?"

so....which is it?

how is it bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring & motivating evil & negative behaviors, but it is NOT bigoted to accuse Islam of the same thing?

do you REALLY believe that Islam leads to violence, racism, & brutality?

and if you do, then how do you explain all the hundreds of millions of non-violent, non-racist, and non-brutal Muslims?

...and honestly, WHY do you excuse attacks against Islam..but NOT against Judaism? is one form of bigotry ok, but another is not?

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

so....which is it?

None of that is moving any sort of goalpost.

It is highlighted that religions ENABLE people (who so choose) to commit horrible acts of violence and racism and this is pointed out. To say that "All Muslims" will become suicide bombers is like saying "All Jews will become Messianic nutbags that steal land." It's bigotry to say that. However, if a Jew or Muslim so chooses, they can find biblical authority to do so.

Quote:

how is it bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring & motivating evil & negative behaviors, but it is NOT bigoted to accuse Islam of the same thing?

I never said those things were not promoted in Judaism, because I don't know- it's not something that can be easily looked up in 5 minutes. If that claim was made by someone (if untrue) it could be refuted by quoting the relevant texts and authorities. However, since I never made this claim, or anyone else for that matter (outside of MagZ and nein/11), I fail to see the relevance.

Quote:

do you REALLY believe that Islam leads to violence, racism, & brutality?

Using Taliban Afghanistan as a reference point: Yes. Watching the parties of God destroy each other in Iraq: Yes. Watching Iran hang homosexuals and rape women (because you can't execute virgins in Islam): yes.

Quote:

and if you do, then how do you explain all the hundreds of millions of non-violent, non-racist, and non-brutal Muslims?

They are good people in spite of their religion. After all, a child is not a murderous sadist until they can understand the Quran.

Quote:

...and hoenstly, WHY do you excuse attacks against Islam..but NOT against Judaism?

I don't think I've ever excused attacks against Judiasm. I think it's bigoted when someone says "Jews will do X". Like I think it's bigoted when someone will say "Muslims will do X".

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

Using Taliban Afghanistan as a reference point: Yes. Watching the parties of God destroy each other in Iraq: Yes. Watching Iran hang homosexuals and rape women (because you can't execute virgins in Islam): yes.

ah, so then you find it perfectly acceptable to use the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Pogroms, the African Slave trade, and the centuries of utter brutality and horror in Europe, as proof that Christianity inspires and motivates violence, hatred, and brutality?

interesting.

I have a better idea: how about we just say that violent people, hateful people, and brutal people USE any religion they like, to justify & excuse their violence, hatred, and brutality.

can we just say that? cause honestly, suggesting that Islam or Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Taosim, Hinduism, etc..motivates and inspires negative behaviors and NOT love, kindness, honesty, generosity, and other positive behaviors, is just downright ignorant.

[Mycroft]

The issue is context.

If I say Islam enables violence and point to Mohammed Ali, then that's nuts. Clearly his boxing carreer has nothing to do with his religion. If I say Islam enables violence and point to the 9/11 hijackers, then there is a clear link between the religion and violence.

If I say Christianity leads to violence and point to the US war in Iraq, then there is a logical disconnect there, as the Iraqi war has nothing to do with Christianity. If I say Christianity leads to violence and then point to the Inquisition, then there is a clear link between the religion and the violence.

If I say Judaism enables stealing and point to Bernard Madoff, that doesn't make any sense because Madoff's motivation had nothing to do with his religion. If I say Judaism enables stealing and point to some fanatic who puts up a tent on some random hill in the West Bank, then there is a clear connection between his religion and his actions.

Originally Posted by Thunder

Now, do you agree that it is bigoted to say that "Judaism enables & often encourages theft, lies, cheating, treason, and feelings of superiority to non-Jews"?

The problem is you don't seem to understand the difference between putting the claim in context and just making the sweeping statement. You seem to relish in the opportunity to make sweeping bigoted statements while simultaneously decrying the behavior in others.

[Thunder]

I have evidence that Islam motivates kindness, generosity, and friendship, for the kindest and most generous people I know just happen to be Muslims.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

ah, so then you find it perfectly acceptable to use the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Pogroms, the African Slave trade, and the centuries of utter brutality and horror in Europe, as proof that Christianity inspires and motivates violence, hatred, and brutality?

Current events, Thunder. The things I listed are happening now.

Christianity has for the most part been reigned in and had its' fangs removed. Given the opportunity, I can see them reverting back to such barbarism.

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I have a better idea: how about we just say that violent people, hateful people, and brutal people USE any religion they like, to justify & excuse their violence, hatred, and brutality.

Because it may not be evil people doing these things. It can be an innocent child who loses his father during war and thinks it is his religious duty (and a moral thing) to avenge him by blowing himself up on a bus. Normally moral people act in immoral ways when it comes to religion.

Quote:

can we just say that? cause honestly, suggesting that Islam or Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Taosim, Hinduism, etc..motivates and inspires negative behaviors and NOT love, kindness, honesty, generosity, and other positive behaviors, is just downright ignorant.

To think other wise is to be naive.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

I have evidence that Islam motivates kindness, generosity, and friendship, for the kindest and most generous people I know just happen to be Muslims.

Religion gets its morality from us, not the other way around. To say people need the teachings of Allah in order to be good is to insult humanity.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

Christianity has for the most part been reigned in and had its' fangs removed.

look the fact is, for every Muslim who acts violent and hateful, there are 100 more who just mind their own business and do the right thing.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

Religion gets its morality from us, not the other way around. To say people need the teachings of Allah in order to be good is to insult humanity.

and yet, many Christians believe that without Jesus there is no reason to be moral and just.

....but for some reason, I am pretty darn moral and just, even though I have no "God" in my life.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

look the fact is, for every Muslim who acts violent and hateful, there are 100 more who just mind their own business and do the right thing.

And that's great! But we're not talking about the majority who mind their own business. We're talking about the minority who follow their religious teachings to the T.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

And that's great! But we're not talking about the majority who mind their own business. We're talking about the minority who follow their religious teachings to the T.

So, Islamic fundamentalists, Muslim extremists, Jihadists, whatever you wish to call them...are the TRUE followers of Islam?

..interesting.

that's like saying Baruch Goldstein, Mayer Kahane, Yigal Amir, and ultra-religious settlers, are the TRUE followers of Judaism.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Originally Posted by Thunder

state-owned television in the Middle East is a very special creature. it requires love, understanding, and patience.

Typical parky, tying yourself in knots to defend Hamas.

In the real world, state owned television reflects the will and attitudes of the government of the state that owns it. "Love, understanding and patience" are not the appropriate response to a childrens television show host who advocates the consumption of human flesh.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

So, Islamic fundamentalists, Muslim extremists, Jihadists, whatever you wish to call them...are the TRUE followers of Islam?

Hard to say (and something I never did).

It could be the majority who live a life of peace simply want to do just that, and would do it regardless of their religious denomination.

The minority who find reasons in their texts to commit atrocities for some kind of reward may want to do just that kind of thing with their lives.

Who is a true follower of an inherently false religion anyway?

ETA*

I think it was Christopher Hitchens who was talking to a Christian aid worker in Africa about the LRA, and when asked who the "True" Christian was, the aid worker couldn't answer because it wasn't for him to say.

In other words, it's a non sequitur.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Originally Posted by Thunder

So, Islamic fundamentalists, Muslim extremists, Jihadists, whatever you wish to call them...are the TRUE followers of Islam?

They are the ones who are the threat. it's their brand of islam that is the problem.

[IDB87]

delete

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

Who is a true follower of an inherently false religion anyway?

er....all religions are inherently false.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Typical parky, tying yourself in knots to defend Hamas.

please stop lieing about my posts.

[bigjelmapro]

Originally Posted by Thunder

err...then why ask me questions?

Did you get confused by an end-of-line error or something?

Hilarious.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Did you get confused by an end-of-line error or something?

Hilarious.

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

They are the ones who are the threat. it's their brand of islam that is the problem.

are you finding a problem with the muslims in alberta?
any i know are lovely folks.
met many edmontonian jihadists?

[Skeptic]

The "most people just want to live a simple life without hurting others" is no doubt true for all religions -- as for humanity in general. But it is of little use in analyzing difference between religions, since, after all, it was equally true in (say) Inquisition-era Spain in Italy, the time of the crusades or the Islamic conquests, or in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. But that is no argument at all for claiming the Inquisition or the Jihadis or the Nazis are equaly benign as, say, modern liberal democracies.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

They are the ones who are the threat. it's their brand of islam that is the problem.

According to IDB87, its not a certain brand of Islam that is the problem, but Islam itself.

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior, it is not bigotry to point that fact out."

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

According to IDB87, its not a certain brand of Islam that is the problem, but Islam itself.

SoT and I believe in the same outcome - murder, racism and barbarism in the name of religion. Its' origin is where we differ.

SoT may be more religious than I am and can see the good in these sorts of faiths, where as I see them as incompatible with humanity and ultimately dangerous. Perhaps he/she is more optimistic than I am, perhaps he/she believes in the best of everyone where I gravitate towards the worst.

How you make that into any sort of argument, or point to be made, is quite mind boggling.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

SoT may be more religious than I am and can see the good in these sorts of faiths, where as I see them as incompatible with humanity and ultimately dangerous. Perhaps he/she is more optimistic than I am, perhaps he/she believes in the best of everyone where I gravitate towards the worst.

if SoT believes that certain extremists, racists, and brutes have hijacked Islam and reinterprate its writings to justify murder & bloodshed of civilians, then he is indeed correct and understands rightfully that most religions can be expressed through love & kindness, but can also be abused into justifying hate & evil.

however, to suggest that Islam itself, is the problem..is bigotry.

edit: to suggest that Islam only motivates and inspires hatred and violence, and does not motivate kindness, love, and generosity..without backing it up..is bigotry.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

if SoT believes that certain extremists, racists, and brutes have hijacked Islam and reinterprate its writings to justify murder & bloodshed of civilians, then he is indeed correct and understands rightfully that most religions can be expressed through love & kindness, but can also be abused into justifying hate & evil.

When you say "reinterpret" do you mean to say "misinterpret"? If not, then you're claiming the justification of murder and bloodshed is already present in those texts and that the fanatics have once again used it as a pretext for their crimes. If you meant to say the fanatics have misinterpreted the texts, well, it's up to you to prove that.

Quote:

to suggest that Islam itself, is the problem..is bigotry.

To say that I am a religious bigot wouldn't be far off the mark, I suppose. I am certainly intolerant of cults that promote racism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia, violence and superstition. Those views are completely incompatible with a democratic, liberal, pluralist society.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

When you say "reinterpret" do you mean to say "misinterpret"? If not, then you're claiming the justification of murder and bloodshed is already present in those texts and that the fanatics have once again used it as a pretext for their crimes. If you meant to say the fanatics have misinterpreted the texts, well, it's up to you to prove that.

To say that I am a religious bigot wouldn't be far off the mark, I suppose. I am certainly intolerant of cults that promote racism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia, violence and superstition. Those views are completely incompatible with a democratic, liberal, pluralist society.

no, as it is YOUR claim that:

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior,"

it is therefore YOUR burdon to prove.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

no, as it is YOUR claim that:

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior,"

it is therefore YOUR burdon to prove.

I guess the burden would be mine if there were no such thing as religious extremists.

But, since that won't satisfy you, start with this site:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IDB87

I guess the burden would be mine if there were no such thing as religious extremists.

But, since that won't satisfy you, start with this site:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

linking to a site is not providing evidence. sorry.

now, lets say the site DOES indeed quote actual passages from the Koran that ain't so nice.

why does the site ignore passages that are benign or even benevolent?

what would you think of a website that only focuses on negative quotes from the Talmud, but ignores benign and benevolent ones? I'd call that bigotry. wouldn't you?

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

linking to a site is not providing evidence. sorry.

It's the Skeptics Annotated Quran with links to actual passages that are broken down into lists like,

Injustice
Intolerance
Cruelty and Violence
Absurdities
Good Stuff
Homosexuality
Women
Contradictions

etc

Here's a few for your appetite:

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

7:80 And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? (regarding homosexuality)

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by IDB87

It's the Skeptics Annotated Quran with links to actual passages that are broken down into lists like,

Injustice
Intolerance
Cruelty and Violence
Absurdities
Good Stuff
Homosexuality
Women
Contradictions

etc

Here's a few for your appetite:

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

7:80 And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? (regarding homosexuality)

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

i don't suppose that it also lists topics like, 'kindness' love of neighbour', giving to the poor', etc...?

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

i don't suppose that it also lists topics like, 'kindness' love of neighbour', giving to the poor', etc...?

It actually does.

Why are you two so afraid to look at a simple link?

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by IDB87

It actually does.

Why are you two so afraid to look at a simple link?

my dialup is very slow, so i don't check out many links...thanks.

so why is it that everyone only focuses on the bad stuff?
imagine if we did an slur of christianity by quoting all the nasty **** in the bible...

[Thunder]

for every negative quote in the Koran, I can find a just as kind and generous one.

these hate-sites that try to attack Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam, as evil...violent...brutal faiths...are just no different that the Protocols, der Sturmer, or The Jews and their Ways.

I have said before, all of the Muslims that I know are kind, generous, and caring people. Clearly Islam has not motivated them to be bigots or murderers.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

so why is it that everyone only focuses on the bad stuff?
imagine if we did an slur of christianity by quoting all the nasty **** in the bible...

Because the bad stuff causes people to kill each other. The good stuff is arguably innate in all of us.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Thunder

for every negative quote in the Koran, I can find a just as kind and generous one.

There are over 500 passages that fall in the 'cruelty' group, over 700 in the injustice group, and another 500 in the intolerance group. Of course we can assume there are duplicate passages in all groups, but the point is made.

Good things in the Quran: 75.

That "for one bad thing, there's a good thing" ratio will become rather skewed rather fast..

Quote:

these hate-sites that try to attack Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam, as evil...violent...brutal faiths...are just no different that the Protocols, der Sturmer, or The Jews and their Ways.

What a slander. Quoting the actual texts amounts to hate-speech. Are you in favor of blasphemy laws?

Quote:

I have said before, all of the Muslims that I know are kind, generous, and caring people.

And I pointed out that they were probably that way all along. Do you think children are evil sadists until they are able to understand the vile teachings of the Bible or the Quran?

Quote:

Clearly Islam has not motivated them to be bigots or murderers.

Implying they would be bigots and murderers if they weren't Muslims.

Nasty slanders, Thunder.