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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 6th October 2021, 04:00 PM   #2161
trustbutverify
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
“Jews will not replace us.”

Those weren’t left-wingers marching with tiki torches. And leftists aren’t the ones obsessed with George Soros.
Is Cynthia McKinney still a left-winger?
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Old 6th October 2021, 04:40 PM   #2162
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
MichelH, The State of Israel has lawfully extended our sovereignty to the Golan Heights (December 14, 1981) and unified the entire Jerusalem municipality.

In any case, Palestinians have no interests in the mountains of the Golan, that is between the Syrians and Israel, should Syria ever decide to approach that subject with Israel directly in the context of a peace treaty, but don't hold yer breath. Meanwhile, the border in that district is well-known to all concerned. It is clearly marked and UNDOF patrols it from the Syrian side.

As for the Jerusalem municipal area, I cannot envision any power on earth making any headway in re-dividing our capital city. The best hope for Palestinians is AbuDis as their capital (where a Parliament building sits, uncompleted) and just call it "AlQuds"

The Temple Mount and environs is non-negotiable, no matter what the UN Security Council proclaims. Do you think the UN Security Council is going to send in troops to dislodge this 37-acre public park from Israeli control? Yes? No? Maybe?

Beyond that, can you point to any UNSC Resolution which defines the legal borders of this "State of Palestine" ? I'm curious where you saw that.
The Old City of Jerusalem will probably never be divided again.

Now, Greater Jerusalem? The city created in 1969 and included lands that were NEVER considered part of Jerusalem in more than 2,000 years? That city may again be broken up. I'd bet on it. The Arab areas in the east and south and north may very well become part of a Palestinian Jerusalem. Plus this would mean less Arabs in Israel, which is something the Israelis want.
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Old 6th October 2021, 08:23 PM   #2163
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Pro-Israel =/= pro-Jew.

It's clear that right-wingers fervently believe that Jews' natural home is one small nation-state in the Middle East. Thus, they don't believe Jews belong in the US or anywhere else other than Israel. This is consistent with the very mainstream (within the Republican Party) White Evangelical view of Israel as the place where the End Times will happen and the Jews will be either converted or suffer eternal damnation. From this perspective, the Palestinians are merely in the way.
This describes almost no one, and certainly not the majority of conservatives support for Israel or opinion about Jews.

Quote:
Again, I really resent the idea that being pro-Israel is the same as being pro-Jewish.
FTFY.
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Old 7th October 2021, 08:22 AM   #2164
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Jews are OK to pray in our Holiest site on earth.
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...e-mount-681322

In response to the fair and proper decision by Israel's Supreme Court, the leadership of 'Palestine' (Gaza branch) declared this ruling a "clear declaration of war"
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Old 7th October 2021, 01:29 PM   #2165
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Jews are OK to pray in our Holiest site on earth.
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...e-mount-681322

In response to the fair and proper decision by Israel's Supreme Court, the leadership of 'Palestine' (Gaza branch) declared this ruling a "clear declaration of war"
The decision by the Israeli court seems reasonable to me although, since the Temple Mount is occupied territory, it would have been good to consult the Palestinian Authority and the King of Jordan Abdullah II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashem...lem_holy_sites).
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Old 7th October 2021, 02:11 PM   #2166
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The decision by the Israeli court seems reasonable to me although, since the Temple Mount is occupied territory, it would have been good to consult the Palestinian Authority and the King of Jordan Abdullah II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashem...lem_holy_sites).
Good to 'consult' with them? To what purpose? Neither is interested whatsoever to permit Jews going into that public park, much less offer silent and non-quorum (minyan) prayer services. The Palestinian National Authority proclaims that Jews going there at all are "violating the sanctity" and "defiling" these public lands. PUBLIC LANDS. Open to all, ostensibly.

The King of Jordan is not asked his opinion, because he has no sovereignty there. Israel does. By our national laws.

Were you aware that the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements (again, the ONLY legal documents holding sway regarding territories that Palestinians now claim as "theirs") contain the following paragraph and stipulation:
Article VIII - Para. 2
"Resumption of the
normal functioning of the cultural and humanitarian institutions on Mount
Scopus and free access thereto; free access to the Holy Places and cultural insti-
tutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives..."
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peac...0Agreement.pdf

For the record, none of those three items was carried out in practice from 1949 to 1967.
The Hebrew University remained closed and off-limits to Jews.
The Western Wall remained Verboten, while Hebron's Shrine of the Patriarchs & Matriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) was certainly prohibited to any Jewish pilgrimages.
The ancient Jewish cemetery was used during those interim years by the Arabs as a latrine.
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Old 7th October 2021, 02:39 PM   #2167
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Good to 'consult' with them? To what purpose? Neither is interested whatsoever to permit Jews going into that public park, much less offer silent and non-quorum (minyan) prayer services. The Palestinian National Authority proclaims that Jews going there at all are "violating the sanctity" and "defiling" these public lands. PUBLIC LANDS. Open to all, ostensibly.

The King of Jordan is not asked his opinion, because he has no sovereignty there. Israel does. By our national laws.

Were you aware that the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements (again, the ONLY legal documents holding sway regarding territories that Palestinians now claim as "theirs") contain the following paragraph and stipulation:
Article VIII - Para. 2
"Resumption of the
normal functioning of the cultural and humanitarian institutions on Mount
Scopus and free access thereto; free access to the Holy Places and cultural insti-
tutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives..."
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peac...0Agreement.pdf

For the record, none of those three items was carried out in practice from 1949 to 1967.
The Hebrew University remained closed and off-limits to Jews.
The Western Wall remained Verboten, while Hebron's Shrine of the Patriarchs & Matriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) was certainly prohibited to any Jewish pilgrimages.
The ancient Jewish cemetery was used during those interim years by the Arabs as a latrine.
The 1988 peace treaty between Jordan and Israel says:
Quote:
Israel commits to "respect the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem" and that "when negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashem...lem_holy_sites).

Wikipedia also says:
Quote:
In 2013, an agreement between Jordan and the Palestinian Authority recognized Jordan's role.
You said:
Quote:
Neither is interested whatsoever to permit Jews going into that public park, much less offer silent and non-quorum (minyan) prayer services.
but gave no source to back up your claim.

It could be in the interest of the Palestinian Authority to be open-minded with respect to Jews getting access to Temple Mount, because if they show that they can be open-minded and benevolent with respect to Jews, this might increase their chances of receiving East Jerusalem as part of a future, Palestinian state, it would show that they can be trusted as responsible rulers. This is perhaps something that should be explained to them (if necessary).

It is possible that even Hamas might have reacted differently if they had been consulted by Israel first.

Last edited by Michel H; 7th October 2021 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 7th October 2021, 02:56 PM   #2168
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HAMAS doesn't talk with Israel.
Israel has no need whatsoever to consult with the Islamic jihadists about a public park where Jews are able to go and visit (and now, pray quietly and unobtrusively).
The HAMAS considers ALL of Israel, every last centimeter, to be 'occupied Islamic lands" and for you to come in this skeptic's Forum and start making excuses for HAMAS, is quite incredible, but here we are...

As for a cite regarding the PalestinianNationalAuthority:
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...ursions-669106

I am astonished that you demanded me to provide this well-known information.
Is your Google broken?
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Old 7th October 2021, 04:09 PM   #2169
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
HAMAS doesn't talk with Israel.
Israel has no need whatsoever to consult with the Islamic jihadists about a public park where Jews are able to go and visit (and now, pray quietly and unobtrusively).
The HAMAS considers ALL of Israel, every last centimeter, to be 'occupied Islamic lands" and for you to come in this skeptic's Forum and start making excuses for HAMAS, is quite incredible, but here we are...

As for a cite regarding the PalestinianNationalAuthority:
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...ursions-669106

I am astonished that you demanded me to provide this well-known information.
Is your Google broken?
Quote:
HAMAS doesn't talk with Israel.
Israel has no need whatsoever to consult with the Islamic jihadists about a public park where Jews are able to go and visit (and now, pray quietly and unobtrusively).
Yes, I know, but I don't think this is a good thing. Israel is a democratic state, has a democratic culture, and therefore should (in my opinion) show a minimum of respect for Hamas, which won the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, and which probably enjoys some support within the Palestinian population.

Israel, as an illegal occupier for more than 50 years, is probably far guiltier than Hamas, which is a resistance movement (in my opinion, at least).

Quote:
As for a cite regarding the PalestinianNationalAuthority:
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...ursions-669106

I am astonished that you demanded me to provide this well-known information.
If you make a non-obvious claim, it seems to me it's up to you to provide evidence, as a courtesy to your readers. This makes your posts more interesting and reliable.

Your link is, my opinion, ambiguous because it says:
Quote:
Referring to the ceasefire that went into effect on Friday morning, Abbas told Safadi on Tuesday that the period of calm between Israel and Hamas must include “stopping attacks and incursions by extremist settlers, backed by the Israeli occupation forces, on al-Aqsa Mosque and on our people in the West Bank.”
This is very different from saying "We cannot tolerate visits by extremely peaceful Jews who want to pray silently on Temple Mount without entering the mosques".

You said yourself, in a previous post:
Quote:
... the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements (again, the ONLY legal documents holding sway regarding territories that Palestinians now claim as "theirs") contain the following paragraph and stipulation:
Article VIII - Para. 2
"Resumption of the normal functioning of the cultural and humanitarian institutions on Mount Scopus and free access thereto; free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives..."
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peac...0Agreement.pdf
These agreements were approved in Rhodes by the Arabs.

Last edited by Michel H; 7th October 2021 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 7th October 2021, 05:15 PM   #2170
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According to the Times of Israel:
Quote:
The Temple Mount, known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif, is the holiest site for Jews and site of the third holiest shrine in Islam. It is the emotional epicenter of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and tensions there helped ignite the 11-day Gaza war in May.
Under understandings reached after Israel captured the Old City and East Jerusalem in the 1967 war, Jews are allowed to visit but not to pray there. Israel maintains overall security at the site, but the Muslim Waqf administers religious activities there.
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/judges...rs-arab-anger/).
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Old 7th October 2021, 05:26 PM   #2171
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MichelH, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Jews were prohibited from visting the Temple Mount for centuries.
Jews were unable to access the nearest spot to the Temple Mount, at the Western Wall, for centuries.
Jews got Jordan to agree (in the Rhodes Armistice Agreement with Jordan) to allow 'free access to the Holy Places' (i.e. - at the time, that would be a reference to the Wailing Wall) and that access never happened.
Until the Israeli Defense Forces took control in June 1967, and reversed generations of Arab rejectionism towards Jews being able to reach that holy site.

You noted:
This is very different from saying "We cannot tolerate visits by extremely peaceful Jews who want to pray silently on Temple Mount without entering the mosques".

The entire 37-acre public park is considered by the WAQF as an Islamic Holy Site and the entire 37-acre public park is regarded as a 'Mosque' -- every inch of it.
Jews are generally considered 'settlers' no matter where they reside in Israel, in Haifa, Tel Aviv, or Eilat or anywhere else. They are 'occupiers' of the entirety of Palestine, from the river to the sea, according to their mainstream ideology. Those chants are heard in the streets of London, Paris, Los Angeles, Toronto, etc, for a reason. The PLO, HAMAS and every other Palestinian group wants it ALL. Get that into your head.

**** HAMAS.
Truly.

Last edited by webfusion; 7th October 2021 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 7th October 2021, 06:32 PM   #2172
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The PLO, HAMAS and every other Palestinian group wants it ALL. Get that into your head.

**** HAMAS.
Truly.
Get this into your head:
Quote:
Palestinian President Abbas in his #UNGA speech today proposed that the PLO can change its call from a state on 1967 lines to the state on 1947 lines (UN partition plan) OR move towards a one state solution in historic Palestine if Israel refused to withdraw forces within 1 year.
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/report...the-new-rabin/).

He didn't call for the elimination of Israel.

Abbas is the current chairman of the PLO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...n_Organization).

Because Israel continues its illegal occupation, this tends to make Palestinian organizations angry and more extremist, this is understandable. To some extent, Israel is creating itself the Palestinian extremism.
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Old 7th October 2021, 07:11 PM   #2173
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MichalH, the State of Israel is not going to budge a millimeter from the current status quo. Abbas knows this, and is just making empty threats to inflame the situation, instead of doing the right thing and returning to the negotiation tables.

Be advised, "the occupation" itself is not illegal. It is legal, resulting from the 1967 defensive war against Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

The PLO was formed in 1964 -- BEFORE the 1967 War.
The Palestinians were angry then, they are angry now, they will continue to be angry, until they start to accept that Jews are going to remain as good neighbors; that Jews will be going up to the Temple Mount; that Jews will live and exist in Hebron, that Jews will continue to 'occupy' Israel.

By the way, calling for a Return of 11-million Palestinians (or whatever spurious number of 'refugees' is thrown out there) is indeed calling for the elimination of Israel.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:44 AM   #2174
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Correction: The Israeli Supreme Court was not the judicial body that handed down a decision regarding allowing (quiet) prayer on the Temple Mount.
It was in Jerusalem Magistrate's Court, with Justice Bilha Yahalom presiding, and the State Public Security Minister says that the Israel Police Department is appealing that ruling to a higher court, because of concerns that "Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount could endanger the public peace and may cause a flare-up with Palestinians."
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/...-prayer-681441

In other words, amid the Arabs' threats of violence and rioting, the Government official in charge of security is saying that he doesn't want to have to deal with violence and rioting arising out of expressions of Jewish rights to freedom of worship in Judaism's Holiest site.

Omer Bar Lev should be ashamed of himself. What an incredible capitulation to mob rule. Pitiful.
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:05 AM   #2175
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And once again, Palestinian leader attempts to evade direct negotiations with Israel.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314680

He keeps trying to internationalize the conflict, by dragging Russia, the UN, and the Europeans into the mix, along with the USA (so-called Quartet).

No sir, if you want peace, talk to Israel. We do not need, nor desire, outsiders to get involved with our task at hand.

He knows perfectly well that demanding the Quartet to oversee things is a recipe for total disaster and will lead nowhere.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:47 AM   #2176
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
And once again, Palestinian leader attempts to evade direct negotiations with Israel.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314680

He keeps trying to internationalize the conflict, by dragging Russia, the UN, and the Europeans into the mix, along with the USA (so-called Quartet).

No sir, if you want peace, talk to Israel. We do not need, nor desire, outsiders to get involved with our task at hand.

He knows perfectly well that demanding the Quartet to oversee things is a recipe for total disaster and will lead nowhere.
I personally think that the way Mahmoud Abbas is dealing with the situation is not bad.

In these negotiations, Israel has a strong asset: the power of its military, strongly supported by the U.S., ready to provide Israel annually with mountains of arms and money, even though it is itself broke and almost bankrupt.

So, to keep negotiations balanced, and give them a real chance of success, Abbas has to use the argument of international legality (U.N. Security Council resolutions), with some support by powerful friends.

Israel should probably, in order to become again a good and respected actor in international politics (which is so far from being the case now ...), withdraw its military and police forces from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, but there are a few things that Israel could request, in my opinion:
- most settlers could remain where they are now, and become Palestinian residents or citizens while retaining their Israeli citizenships.
- An U.N. force could be deployed in the West Bank in order to protect them from possible revenge attacks for a few years
- Jews should be allowed to pray discreetly on Temple Mount (there are mosques there, but no synagogue)
- Israel could purchase from Syria the part of the Golan Heights they currently occupy, which would then become permanent Israeli territory.

If you view things in this way, I think a permanent peace deal could be interesting for Israelis, with no more rocket fire from Gaza if the Gaza blockade is lifted.

Last edited by Michel H; 8th October 2021 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:02 AM   #2177
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Israel should probably, in order to become again a good and respected actor in international politics (which is so far from being the case now ...)
It's laughable for you to talk about who is and isn't a "good and respected actor", when you routinely excuse terrorism.

Quote:
- An U.N. force could be deployed in the West Bank in order to protect them from possible revenge attacks for a few years
Bwahahahahaha!

No.

UN peacekeeping forces cannot actually keep the peace. This has been demonstrated time and time again. They failed to do anything in Yugoslavia, they failed to do anything in Rwanda. Hell, even in natural disaster relief where there is no combat, they often make things worse.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:43 AM   #2178
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I personally think that the way Mahmoud Abbas is dealing with the situation is not bad.

Well, your personal feelings don't mean diddly-squat.

80% of Palestinians think he's FUBAR.
https://apnews.com/article/middle-ea...117548ea85379d

Go fish.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:13 AM   #2179
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
People looking for antisemitic content on the Internet will probably be able to find some, but people really looking for the truth will probably be able to find it too ....
Will the Internet also tell me which is which?
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:47 AM   #2180
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
People looking for antisemitic content on the Internet will probably be able to find some, but people really looking for the truth will probably be able to find it too ....
Will the Internet also tell me which is which?
There are certainly ways to find out the truth for clever readers, for example by looking at the number of references, the historical approach, the quality and balanced nature of texts, websites's reputation, whether they (or books) are for children only or for a general audience ...

Obviously, when a smart child is told at school that the state of Israel does not exist, and he sees Israel's prime minister on Al Jazeera television two hours later, he will become suspicious.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:01 AM   #2181
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There are certainly ways to find out the truth for clever readers
So why haven't you found out the truth?

Oh.... ooooh.

Quote:
Obviously, when a smart child is told at school that the state of Israel does not exist, and he sees Israel's prime minister on Al Jazeera television two hours later, he will become suspicious.
That's... stupid. I mean, it's stupid to think that's what's even being discussed. Nobody is telling people Israel doesn't exist. The problem is people saying Israel should not exist, and that terrorism is a justifiable way to try to make it not exist. Seeing that it does exist doesn't disprove the position that it should not exist.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:03 AM   #2182
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Obviously, when a smart child is told at school that the state of Israel does not exist, and he sees Israel's prime minister on Al Jazeera television two hours later, he will become suspicious.
....suspicious of Al Jazeera.
Seriously, though, there is a difference between not recognising the state of Israel and claiming Israel does not exist.
Israel does not appear in school textbooks in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis know it exists.
Where are you claiming that children are taught it doesn't exist?
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:21 PM   #2183
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
....suspicious of Al Jazeera.
Seriously, though, there is a difference between not recognising the state of Israel and claiming Israel does not exist.
Israel does not appear in school textbooks in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis know it exists.
Where are you claiming that children are taught it doesn't exist?
You mean: "Why are you claiming that children are taught it doesn't exist?" ?

webfusion said:
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465
"Palestine" territory is mostly described as from the “river to the sea” -- without Israel existing.
And the link he/she provided says:
Quote:
Many PA textbooks currently:
- incite Jew-hatred,
- prefer Jihad to peaceful resolution of the Jewish-Arab conflict and
- do not recognize Israel on any of their maps
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:40 PM   #2184
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You mean: "Why are you claiming that children are taught it doesn't exist?" ?

webfusion said:
Wow. That's even stupider than I thought.

What that means is that this is what they believe Palestine should be. It is not a denial that Israel is there right now.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:53 PM   #2185
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The King of Jordan is not asked his opinion, because he has no sovereignty there. Israel does. By our national laws.
Israel has sovereignty there because Israel says it does?

Russia has sovereignty over Ukraine, China has sovereignty over Taiwan and Hong Kong, and Pakistan has sovereignty over Kashmir. Glad we're clearing these issues up.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:58 PM   #2186
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Really love how the knee-jerk defenders of Israel on this thread just assume that all of the international condemnation of Israel's violence toward Palestinians is just anti-Semitism.

If you take any criticism of you as proof that people irrationally hate you, then it's easy to justify anything you're doing no matter how horrific. This is logically unsound and circular, but I must admit it is emotionally powerful.

"So many people are criticizing Israel, which just demonstrates how anti-Semitic the whole world is. Which is why Israel needs to double down on what it's already doing, which will provoke more criticism, which just demonstrates how anti-Semitic..."
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:59 PM   #2187
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's laughable for you to talk about who is and isn't a "good and respected actor", when you routinely excuse terrorism.



Bwahahahahaha!

No.

UN peacekeeping forces cannot actually keep the peace. This has been demonstrated time and time again. They failed to do anything in Yugoslavia, they failed to do anything in Rwanda. Hell, even in natural disaster relief where there is no combat, they often make things worse.
Do you trust the IDF to keep any peace?

And it's only terrorism because Palestinians don't have their own state, or aren't integrated into Israel as full and equal citizens (this is of course well-understood by the Israeli government, which is why they will never allow Palestinian equality in either Israel or an independent Palestinian state).

The IDF can do the exact same things and it's considered legitimate self-defense of their country. Palestinian civilians don't have the right to defend themselves, and this situation is entirely deliberate and knowing on the part of Israel.

Last edited by Allen773; 8th October 2021 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:09 PM   #2188
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So why haven't you found out the truth?

Oh.... ooooh.



That's... stupid. I mean, it's stupid to think that's what's even being discussed. Nobody is telling people Israel doesn't exist. The problem is people saying Israel should not exist, and that terrorism is a justifiable way to try to make it not exist. Seeing that it does exist doesn't disprove the position that it should not exist.
No state based on the supremacy of one ethnic or religious group over another should exist. That goes for all of the dictatorships and authoritarian regimes in the Islamic world. That goes for Gaza and the PA.

And yes, increasingly, that goes for Israel as well. Israel can either be a liberal democracy with equal rights for all or a Jewish state. It cannot be both. If you're not a fan of liberal democracy, well that's your view. I happen to support it.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:21 PM   #2189
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
And once again, Palestinian leader attempts to evade direct negotiations with Israel.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314680

He keeps trying to internationalize the conflict, by dragging Russia, the UN, and the Europeans into the mix, along with the USA (so-called Quartet).

No sir, if you want peace, talk to Israel. We do not need, nor desire, outsiders to get involved with our task at hand.

He knows perfectly well that demanding the Quartet to oversee things is a recipe for total disaster and will lead nowhere.
Perhaps he doesn't trust talking solely to rogue states like Israel.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:51 PM   #2190
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Perhaps he doesn't trust talking solely to rogue states like Israel.
He can simply look to the talks conducted with the Jordanians, resulting in a comprehensive and bi-lateral peace treaty with the Hashemite Kingdom.

He can simply refer to the talks which led to the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, and the binding arbitration Israel accepted regarding Taba.

He can simply make note of the talks which produced the Abraham Accords with the Gulf nations/emirates.

He can look back at the talks his predecessor Yassir Arafat conducted, which nearly produced a peace treaty (the 'hitch' was the Haram al-Sharif compound, which Israel refused to turn over to Palestinian control).

Abbas simply needs to resign, and get out of the way. It's the only way forward for his people. Time's up for that guy. His expiration date is overdue.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:04 PM   #2191
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Do you trust the IDF to keep any peace?
Their job isn't to "keep the peace". It's to protect Israel.

Quote:
And it's only terrorism because Palestinians don't have their own state
I think that's probably the stupidest thing you've said so far.

It's terrorism because it's deliberately targeting civilians. They aren't collateral damage from attacks against military targets, civilians largely ARE the targets. To the extent that the label might change if they had their own state, it wouldn't change from terrorism to war, it would change from terrorism to war crimes.

Quote:
The IDF can do the exact same things and it's considered legitimate self-defense of their country.
I take that back. The previous bit was the second stupidest thing you've said. This is the stupidest thing.

Not. The IDF does not do the exact same thing. What the IDF does and what Hamas does are very, VERY different.

Quote:
Palestinian civilians don't have the right to defend themselves
Clue for the clueless: rocket attacks against Israel are not self defense. Suicide bombings are not self defense. Random knife attacks in crowds are not self defense.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:07 PM   #2192
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
No state based on the supremacy of one ethnic or religious group over another should exist. That goes for all of the dictatorships and authoritarian regimes in the Islamic world. That goes for Gaza and the PA.
Except in practice it never does. Israel is cricitized for being a Jewish state, but every one of its neighbors is an Islamic state, and nobody seems to have a problem with that. Why?

Quote:
And yes, increasingly, that goes for Israel as well. Israel can either be a liberal democracy with equal rights for all or a Jewish state. It cannot be both. If you're not a fan of liberal democracy, well that's your view. I happen to support it.
Israel is far more liberal and far more democratic than any of its neighbors, including the Palestinian territories. If you actually cared about liberalism and democracy, you would support Israel against its illiberal and undemocratic enemies. But you don't. Why?

There's really only one conclusions that can be drawn from this: the real problem is that they're Jews.
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Old 9th October 2021, 12:19 AM   #2193
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's terrorism because it's deliberately targeting civilians. They aren't collateral damage from attacks against military targets, civilians largely ARE the targets.
I'm just going to add a little to this. The attempted Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli civilians might well have caused the death of many times more innocent Palestinian civilians than they've killed Israelis. Those Palestinian deaths, of course, are likely to be treated as if they were Israeli-caused deaths in many of the figures that get spread.
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Last edited by Aridas; 9th October 2021 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 9th October 2021, 06:51 AM   #2194
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FATAH (PLO) is now attempting to be more like HAMAS, encouraging an Islamic faith-based 'uprising' because Jews are coming into a public park and expressing freedom of religion.

Instead of showing some goodwill, and understanding the deeply-rooted tenets of Judaism, and making some conciliatory statement regarding Jewish visitations to our holiest site on the planet, the leadership of Palestinians' government turns to incitement, to hatred, to threats of violence.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314678

Yeah, maybe we should consult with HAMAS, to see what they suggest.
Not.
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Old 9th October 2021, 07:24 AM   #2195
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I'm just going to add a little to this. The attempted Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli civilians might well have caused the death of many times more innocent Palestinian civilians than they've killed Israelis. Those Palestinian deaths, of course, are likely to be treated as if they were Israeli-caused deaths in many of the figures that get spread.
Yeah, it's stuff like that which really gives lie to the claim that this is about self defense.
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Old 9th October 2021, 09:50 AM   #2196
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You mean: "Why are you claiming that children are taught it doesn't exist?" ?
No, I mean what I wrote.
In which places are children being taught that Israel doesn't exist?
As I also said, there is a difference between not recognising Israel, and claiming Israel doesn't exist.
If you didn't mean what you said there, you can always say so, but all I've got to go on is your words.
So: where do you claim this is happening, or did you just mis-speak?
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Old 9th October 2021, 10:24 AM   #2197
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So: where do you claim this is happening, or did you just mis-speak?
He didn't misspeak. He's using a really stupid interpretation of what webfusion wrote. webfusion's wording is a bit awkward and grammatically open to interpretation, but in context it should be pretty clear what he meant, and it isn't that. Furthermore, regardless of what webfusion meant, what webfusion said isn't actually evidence of what Palestinian children are being taught. So it's like an onion of stupidity, there are layers to it.
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Old 9th October 2021, 10:59 AM   #2198
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, I mean what I wrote.
In which places are children being taught that Israel doesn't exist?
As I also said, there is a difference between not recognising Israel, and claiming Israel doesn't exist.
If you didn't mean what you said there, you can always say so, but all I've got to go on is your words.
So: where do you claim this is happening, or did you just mis-speak?
You asked:
Quote:
Where are you claiming that children are taught it doesn't exist?
The answer to that odd question might be "in my living room".

Now you ask:
Quote:
In which places are children being taught that Israel doesn't exist?
This is a much clearer question, and the answer to it is "in Palestinian schools", or "in schools using Palestinian Authority texbooks", I suppose. To know more, you should read the link provided by webfusion in post #2135: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465
(or perhaps ask webfusion for more details).
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Old 9th October 2021, 11:24 AM   #2199
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post

Now you ask: "In which places are children being taught that Israel doesn't exist?"

This is a much clearer question, and the answer to it is "in Palestinian schools", or "in schools using Palestinian Authority texbooks", I suppose. To know more, you should read the link provided by webfusion in post #2135: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465
(or perhaps ask webfusion for more details).
Stop lying, please.

You have been shown that the Palestinians are well-aware that Israel exists.
In fact, I even pointed out that HAMAS specifically notes the existence of Israel, in the preamble of their sacred Covenant, 18 August 1988.
Their reference states:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al-Banna
His Muslim Brotherhood group was heavily financed by Nazi Germany, which contributed greatly to its growth.

I am unfamiliar with Palestinian ideology that denies Israel exists.
If that is your claim, please provide some substantiation so we may evaluate it.
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Old 9th October 2021, 11:34 AM   #2200
Michel H
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Stop lying, please.

You have been shown that the Palestinians are well-aware that Israel exists.
In fact, I even pointed out that HAMAS specifically notes the existence of Israel, in the preamble of their sacred Covenant, 18 August 1988.
Their reference states:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al-Banna
His Muslim Brotherhood group was heavily financed by Nazi Germany, which contributed greatly to its growth.

I am unfamiliar with Palestinian ideology that denies Israel exists.
If that is your claim, please provide some substantiation so we may evaluate it.
I am not the one who is lying. You said (talking about Palestinian schools):
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465
"Palestine" territory is mostly described as from the “river to the sea” -- without Israel existing.
And now you say "I am unfamiliar with Palestinian ideology that denies Israel exists". This seems contradictory to me.
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