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#81 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,836
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#82 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,492
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Wildly unfair. Here in the States, the boots-on-the-ground xians don't exchange a penny or influence anyone, excepting by example. Please don't hold up the occasional Joel Olsteen (sp) and condemn all xianity, including those working a soup kitchen or volunteering at a hospital.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#83 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 27,712
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I agree. There is a tendency for the worst and most cupidinous fundamentalists to commandeer the word "Christian," and deny it to those who don't share their narrow, punitive, exclusionist views. We must remember that a great many people who call themselves Christians are not those, but a variety of believers trying in diverse ways to do some good in the world, many of them volunteering their own resources, as well as their time and energy. Some do it better than others. You may disapprove of their choices, their priorities, their rules, and, of course their faith itself. All such criticisms have standing, but to say they're all doing it for power and money diminishes the good many do, misidentifies the harm others do, and also dissipates the argument against those who really are servants of power and money.
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#84 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,790
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I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
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#85 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,492
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Much like telling them the tooth fairy will bring them money isn't the same as telling them some other people believe this.
I don't think it harms the very young to innocently believe in all manner of the supernatural. As they grow up, I think they sort it out for themselves with parents that encourage inquisitiveness and value the truth. Santa is the best example for me. It doesn't hurt them to believe when young, and they learn that goodness comes from those who love them, even if personified sometimes. They'll get it in their time, as long as they are not threatened lifelong with fire and brimstone. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#86 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,569
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You can still have fun with Santa and the tooth fairy without telling your kid it's real.
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#87 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,640
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#88 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,492
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#89 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,640
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#90 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,492
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#91 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,395
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This.
There's also the problems with kids who feel lied to and develop trust issues when they realise Santa isn't real. I don't know how many they are, but they're my main argument against trying to portray Santa as real. Other than "just don't freaking lie to your own kids". ![]() ![]() |
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#92 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,640
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#93 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,395
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Nah. If asked by a child I'd tell them that we don't really know what happens after death, but some people believe you go to Heaven or get born and get to live on Earth again, and isn't that a comforting thought? ETA: then I'd ask the child what they thought, get a discussion going so they got to talk about their thoughts.
Christians offended by this are encouraged to tell me how their idea that the kid is likely going to Hell to suffer for an eternity is less painful or horrific. |
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#94 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,492
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#95 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,640
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OOookkaaaay.
Arguing with you is... weird. It's like you're always having a different discussion from everyone else and you're always really, really passionate about the discussion that's going on in your alternative universe. Either just jump ahead to the "Thermal flounces out of the thread (for the first time)" stage or the "Thermal now shifts into arguing that nobody is really disagreeing" stage and don't waste our time. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#96 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,492
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Aaahhh, the beloved 'alternative universe' strawman argument you so love to dismissively roll out in lieu of honest discussion. Here it's only the 5th day of the year, too.
Also it's a little precious how you demand there only be two possible POVs in a discussion. The innocence is charming. Bonus points for lying about 'flouncing out of the discussion'. I occasionally bail from unproductive exchanges with a specific poster, but it is sweet how you misrepresent that too. Always a pleasure. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#97 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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I guess other religions will have different ways to help distressed children. For example Chinese religions like Buddhism and Taoism might comfort a distressed child by saying grandma could come back as an animal the child likes.
From the NCBI website: In the Chinese religions, there is no a single God to worship, there is no afterlife in the Western sense, and there is lack of social support system and coping mechanism as the religious people do not meet regularly. Different from all the mainstream religions in the West, Chinese religions are often associated with superstition as the saying of zongjiao mixin. To some Chinese individuals, being religious is equivalent of being superstitious, and death is a solution of all the problems and beginning of a new life. The Buddhist and Taoist belief in metempsychoses indicates the rebirth of the soul at death in another body, either human or animal. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730492/ On the other hand the article says only about 8% of Chinese are religious so if the therapist in the OP article is right, it would seem that Chinese children on the whole would have a tougher time dealing with the sudden death of a close relative since it is unlikely their parents will bring God or heaven into the picture. That being the case I believe it would be an advantage for a Chinese person to be a Christian over being an atheist when it comes to helping distressed children dealing with the death of a close relative. |
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#98 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,961
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Why not better off being a Muslim or even better being a Mazdayasnain?
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#99 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,640
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That's the problem with any version of the "Believe in God as a simple cost-benefit analysis" argument going all the way back to Pascal's Wager.
"Which God" and "Believe how?" are not minor side discussions or nitpicks, they are core parts of the argument. Every religion puts specifics on what God is and how he has to be worshipped. Yes, all of them. Okay so I want to "hedge my bets" or teach my children to do the same. What do I do? Do I face Mecca, pick a rosary, slaughter a chicken, not eat pork, not eat meat on Friday, get circumcised, not get circumcised, what? And no I can't just do all of them and no I can't not do them either. "God is this vague, non-picky thing who's going to be happy with any type of worship he gets" is no more logical or self evident then the God who has a specific set of rules to follow. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#100 |
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,854
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Doc! Nice to see you back. You disappeared so quickly and for so long I feared something bad had happened to you. I must say you do seem in fine fettle, I hope that is the case, and full of your old 'fighting spirit'. Huzzah!
![]() In response to your OP, please may I refer you to the responses made to every other thread of yours as they are still relevant today as they were 5-6 or 7 years ago. You still quote-mine Ehrman, your doubling down on your circular reasoning and your still persisting with your 'evidence for God'. I'm proud of you. Anyway, as I said, it's nice to see you back. But, can I please ask that we discuss something new, all of your old points (and this new, rehashing of them) have been soundly thrashed in each of their own threads and I've lost my 'Doc Bingo' cards. |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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#101 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,373
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Okay, Doc, then tell us the difference between religion and superstition.
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If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power. |
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#102 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,569
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I'll spell out my point more clearly.
There are valid concerns with telling one's children that Santa is real: It's dishonest, unskeptical, and has the potential to harm trust. The alternative is posed as a kind of trade-off: Sure those things are bad, but Santa is fun, so the benefits outweigh the costs. My point is that you can get the best of both worlds. Tell your kids that Santa is a type of "game" that people play around Christmas, kinda like a Halloween costume. Now, nobody is being misled, and it's still fun. Hope that helps. |
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#103 |
Meandering fecklessly
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,424
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Not this crap again.
What baffles me though is how much negligent hand-waving is done by people when it comes to lying, especially to children. No. Lying is bad. Don't do it. No real reason to. But it's a joke when I get to read a few people acting like the torture question: they have to come up with some incredibly implausible, never-actually-happens-in-real-life scenarios such as "hey there's a ticking time bomb located somewhere which will go off in 24 hours and nuke San Francisco unless we torture a ton of dudes, pronto, to hell with the consequences". No, it's not okay to torture anybody. No, it doesn't work. It never suddenly becomes okay to lie to people about fantasies and religions. In this case, it's often the theist-on-his-deathbed-who-implausibly-asks-the-non-believer-to-pray-for-or-with-him-or-asks-the-atheists-opinion-on-the-afterlife and then they're all like, "Hey lie like a goddamned rug! Go for it!" Frankly, I think it's because the people who are okay with lying just simply don't have enough tact or nuance to deal with telling the truth. And no, responding to the wife's loaded question of "does my butt look fat in this dress" with a "yes, but it's the truth" doesn't know enough to separate truth from opinion and should simply remain either silent or single. |
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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#104 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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#105 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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A Jewish Psychoanalyst with over 20 years experience saying atheists should lie to their children about God is new.
And when Mojo asks me for historical evidence in post 19 I gave him some. And when people keep making wide sweeping generalizations such as all your past points have been soundly thrashed I might make it another 6 year absence. Any transient on a library computer could make a similar statement without having read one word of my threads. People should let my past posts speak for themselves without continually offering no information empty opinions about them. |
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#106 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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Atheists just aren't as comfortable being liars as theists are.
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So is it only the Abrahamic gods whose existence you think needs to be lied about? |
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#107 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,397
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#108 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,373
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Hey, Norseman: The woman across the street from me has inoperable cancer. She'll die soon. Nothing theoretical about it.
She's religious and it seems to comfort her. But in that hour when doubt enters her mind, and fear with it, she may well ask for reassurance. I hope she doesn't ask me, but if she does, I'll lie like a trouper, and I hope you'll issue me a ticket to hell for it. See you there. |
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If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power. |
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#109 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,373
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I just felt a breeze
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If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power. |
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#110 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,640
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Starting a topic on a thing then doing the whole "But awwww shucks me defending it might be off topic" thing is certainly... bold.
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#111 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 22,786
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#112 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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To be fair, some posts including some from DOC, were moved to AAH for being off topic.
I hope that encourages DOC to answer the questions actually asked without resorting to tired old nonsense long refuted. |
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#113 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,569
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May work???! Doesn't help children?
Well, it helps them understand life and death, which appears to be what it's supposed to do, doesn't it? The idea is pretty straightforward and uncomplicated. Children should be able to grasp it. Adults who've been lied to as kids and now lie to themselves are the ones who don't seem to get it.
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There's absolutely nothing incomprehensible about it. Ask (almost) any biologist! In Scandinavia, it appears to be what most parents tell their children. However, a few parents resort to the lie that 'nobody knows what happens after death' in order to avoid having to tell their children the truth. Based on what I've heard from adults whose irreligious parents told them the truth (I wasn't so lucky myself), it's not at all traumatic to be told about death. (But remember, we're the kind of people who take our children to see young giraffes be dismembered and fed to the lions!) The children who are told that an eternal life in Paradise awaits them after death are the ones who tend to think of the big nothing as something scary and awful. Otherwise, why would their parents tell them the Paradise lie? |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#114 |
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,854
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Doc.
What do you tell the kids when someones 'Uncle Ernie' dies? |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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#115 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 70,273
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Please scream inside your heart. |
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#116 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,392
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Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!" |
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#117 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#118 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,492
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I'm on the edge of my seat to see that robust evidence that *checks notes* telling your kids about Santa has the potential to harm trust, et al. Groundbreaking research, I'm sure. Otherwise, that which is asserted with out evidence...
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#119 |
Professional Nemesis for Hire
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 8,473
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#120 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 70,273
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Please scream inside your heart. |
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