IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Charbel Makhlouf , Raymond Nader , St. Charbel , stigmata

Reply
Old 28th December 2020, 01:45 PM   #121
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,712
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Then explain this...


What on earth is a "convinced atheist"? Convinced of what, exactly?
He probably, mistakenly believes that an atheist is a person that believes no gods exist.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2020, 02:05 PM   #122
suren
Scholar
 
suren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Armenia, Yerevan
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What on earth is a "convinced atheist"? Convinced of what, exactly?
Being convinced that no god(s) exist.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
He probably, mistakenly believes that an atheist is a person that believes no gods exist.
I mentioned that some atheists do some don't. Not all atheists are convinced atheists. Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god(s). It can be either just lack of belief in god or a belief (sometimes even conviction) in god's non existence.

Last edited by suren; 28th December 2020 at 02:09 PM.
suren is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2020, 02:15 PM   #123
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,311
Originally Posted by suren View Post
Being convinced that no god(s) exist.
The you do not understand what atheism is. Why am I unsurprised.


Originally Posted by suren View Post
I mentioned that some atheists do some don't. Not all atheists are convinced atheists.
There it is. You somehow think that atheism is a belief system.

It isn't.

Originally Posted by suren View Post
Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god(s). It can be either just lack of belief in god or a belief (sometimes even conviction) in god's non existence.
Now you are simply making stuff up out of nowhere.

Tell you what. Show me the atheist creed. Can you do that?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2020, 02:15 PM   #124
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,542
suren. Bro. Don't do this. This is a well-worn road that you will not have fun travelling.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2020, 03:10 PM   #125
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,693
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
suren. Bro. Don't do this. This is a well-worn road that you will not have fun travelling.
I mean, he's having fun doing the whole "I get that their claims are empty but I still feel like maybe they're not" thing. So why not have fun with the whole "slapfight about atheism as a term" thing?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2020, 09:35 PM   #126
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,847
Oh do let him continue. It's been a day since I've witnessed a good flogging.
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
If you see a Nazi. Egg them
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2020, 04:46 AM   #127
Carrot Flower King
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 785
What? You mean all you other atheists out there don't go to the Church of The Non-God? And listen to the vicar recite verses from the Book of The Non-God, then expound on their meaning and applicability to everyday life? Then sing some hymns in praise of The Non-God? Did you not have to attend the equivalent of confirmation/church membership classes in order to be admitted as a full member in good standing of the Church of The Non-God?

Wow! I'm amazed!
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2020, 08:03 AM   #128
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,693
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
What? You mean all you other atheists out there don't go to the Church of The Non-God? And listen to the vicar recite verses from the Book of The Non-God, then expound on their meaning and applicability to everyday life? Then sing some hymns in praise of The Non-God? Did you not have to attend the equivalent of confirmation/church membership classes in order to be admitted as a full member in good standing of the Church of The Non-God?

Wow! I'm amazed!
I dunno. The R&P subforum here does get kinda preachy and dogmatic from time to time. Complete with regular sermons to the choir from the usual suspects. And our resident atheists do have a tendency to swarm any discussion with excerpts from the atheist chatechism. Chapter 1, Verse 1: "Atheists aren't religious!"

My view is that you don't have to be a theist to be religious. Communists and atheists provide clear examples of this principle.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2020, 09:49 AM   #129
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,542
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, he's having fun doing the whole "I get that their claims are empty but I still feel like maybe they're not" thing.
Well, the 'let's toy with this' thing is a position I'm sympathetic to. It beats the hell out of committed dogma.

Quote:
So why not have fun with the whole "slapfight about atheism as a term" thing?
Because its less a slapfight and more of a gang rape. I can hear knuckles being cracked and some preliminary stretching and limbering up in the background. Time and place, and this is neither.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2020, 10:32 AM   #130
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,902
Originally Posted by suren View Post
... When I was teenager my mother showed me videos about Baba Vanga and her alleged abilities "that left scientists and skeptics speechless".
It's heartening that you put quotes around the bit about the speechless scientists. It's just the sort of inverted appeal to authority people seem to like use to dress up their just-pretend story to make it sound more impressive or authentic.

Sometimes it's fun to pretend, but it is just pretend. Dinosaurs were real. Supernatural mystical stuff is just pretend.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2020, 04:14 PM   #131
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,242
I am so naive that it would never occur to me to (dishonestly) say, "I don't believe X, but what can I say to my friend who is claiming X?"

X being a conspiracy theory, a political claim, an example of the supernatural etc.

Why would people do this? For attention? OK, I will and have paid attention to people who create threads like this, if the subject interests me. It gets frustrating when a dozen or more explanations or possibilities are offered, and the thread starter says, "OK, I thought so too, but my friend is convinced ... X!"

Are these posters necessarily being disingenuous?

I enjoy watching points being made back and forth, but if one side is just yanking the other's chain, it takes me a long time to catch on.

In a similar thread I saw one forum member say something like, "The more interesting question is why you have such anxiety over unexplained trivialities." I though that was very insightful.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2020, 05:08 PM   #132
xterra
So far, so good...
 
xterra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded
Posts: 3,711
Minoosh,

Here is one possible answer to the reason people continue to return to the same sort of religion-based topic, in the case of the OP, various miracle or supernatural claims:


Title: "Scrupulosity: Where OCD Meets Religion, Faith, and Belief"

Website: https://ocdla.com/scrupulosity-ocd-r...th-belief-2107
__________________
Over we go....
xterra is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2020, 08:14 PM   #133
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,242
Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Minoosh,

Here is one possible answer to the reason people continue to return to the same sort of religion-based topic, in the case of the OP, various miracle or supernatural claims:


Title: "Scrupulosity: Where OCD Meets Religion, Faith, and Belief"

Website: https://ocdla.com/scrupulosity-ocd-r...th-belief-2107
This is kind of scrupulosity in reverse: fearing that one is not evidence-based enough. As in, "I don't think there's a supernatural element; now convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that my friend is wrong."

Interesting link!
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2020, 05:17 AM   #134
Lplus
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 587
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I am so naive that it would never occur to me to (dishonestly) say, "I don't believe X, but what can I say to my friend who is claiming X?"

X being a conspiracy theory, a political claim, an example of the supernatural etc.

Why would people do this? For attention? OK, I will and have paid attention to people who create threads like this, if the subject interests me. It gets frustrating when a dozen or more explanations or possibilities are offered, and the thread starter says, "OK, I thought so too, but my friend is convinced ... X!"

Are these posters necessarily being disingenuous?

I enjoy watching points being made back and forth, but if one side is just yanking the other's chain, it takes me a long time to catch on.

In a similar thread I saw one forum member say something like, "The more interesting question is why you have such anxiety over unexplained trivialities." I though that was very insightful.
Sometimes I wonder if the "friend" actually exists.
Lplus is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2020, 10:17 AM   #135
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,388
Supernatural miraculous HAND MARKS?!? On some yob's ARM?!?? Is that good enough for the religionists?

Pfui und Blatt, say I. MY GOD RULES NO SUCH SORRY LITTLE CULT. My GOD reveals Himself in a riven sky filled with terror, with fire-written words of doom and the smashing of solar systems! No doubt, no unbelief can survive an instant of HIS terrible revelation!

Nothing less is worthy of MY GOD! So spare this REAL Believer your pawing little runny-nosed miracles and wonders. On that day that will never end, your tears and phlegm and holy Mary's milk will dry to powder --

Gack. Chistianism sures goes in for body fluids. "And came there forth blood and water."

That's enough queasiness for today.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

Last edited by sackett; 30th December 2020 at 10:55 AM.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2020, 10:19 AM   #136
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,712
Over a decade ago some guy on Yahoo chat was trying to convince me his god was real because he coughed up a hair that he didn't know was on his mashed potatoes. It was a miracle!
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2020, 10:59 AM   #137
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,388
Oh that's just great

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Over a decade ago some guy on Yahoo chat was trying to convince me his god was real because he coughed up a hair that he didn't know was on his mashed potatoes. It was a miracle!
Now I can add puke to the Holy Roman Fluids.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2020, 11:04 AM   #138
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,693
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Sometimes I wonder if the "friend" actually exists.
suren seems to have painted himself into a corner where he's so weak-willed that he can't cut himself loose from the friend's empty claims and poor reasoning... But he's so strong-willed that he can't just accept the refutations and counter-arguments he's asking for here.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2020, 09:54 AM   #139
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6,160
I do not see the point in questioning Surenís motives. Whether he believes or not, whether the friend exists or not, my view of the claims are the same, and the arguments stay the same.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:45 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.