ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags james millette , kevin ryan , Niels Harrit , paint chips , richard gage , steven jones , wtc

Reply
Old 5th March 2015, 02:53 AM   #4801
Crazy Chainsaw
Graduate Poster
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
@ LSSBB: Presence or absence of iron-rich microspheres resulting from office fires would not depend much on the structural framing - it's not so much the steel that burns and produces ashes.

@ Chris: Difficult for us to guess as we haven't talked with that metallurgist. Does he routinely study ashes using visual light and electron microscopy?
Sorry Oystein on this I have to disagree with
You the collapses are the most energetic
Phenomina of 9/11/2001 so LSSBB was right
To ask that question.
The more energetic the environment the
Greater chance micro spheres of pure iron
Will be formed.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 03:37 AM   #4802
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,838
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Sorry Oystein on this I have to disagree with
You the collapses are the most energetic
Phenomina of 9/11/2001 so LSSBB was right
To ask that question.
The more energetic the environment the
Greater chance micro spheres of pure iron
Will be formed.
No, you are wrong, on two counts:

First, you missed the context. Context was Chris Mohr asking: "why did the forensic metallurgist who understood about the iron-rich microspheres tell me that he had never found them when analyzing fire debris from regular office fires?" Note that this is asking about the effects of office fire, not collapse. And certainly not collapse of large towers. Which is why I was careful in my wording: "...microspheres resulting from office fires would not depend much on the structural framing...".

Second, "the collapses are the most energetic Phenomina of 9/11/2001" is wrong by about one order of magnitude:
Each collapse released about 5 * 10^11 Joules, from potential energy
That's less than half the chemical energy of the jet fuel aboard either plane (ca. 1.2 * 10^12 J).
And that in turn was less than the chemical energy of office contents that burned: NIST estimated 3-4 GJ per workstation (cubicle), and there were typically 150-200 workstations per floor, for a combined 6 * 10^11 J (plus/minus) per floor. With what - 7? - floors burning before collapse, we have fire events releasing up to 4 * 10^12 J - about ten times as much as the collapse mechanics.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 03:57 AM   #4803
Crazy Chainsaw
Graduate Poster
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
No, you are wrong, on two counts:

First, you missed the context. Context was Chris Mohr asking: "why did the forensic metallurgist who understood about the iron-rich microspheres tell me that he had never found them when analyzing fire debris from regular office fires?" Note that this is asking about the effects of office fire, not collapse. And certainly not collapse of large towers. Which is why I was careful in my wording: "...microspheres resulting from office fires would not depend much on the structural framing...".

Second, "the collapses are the most energetic Phenomina of 9/11/2001" is wrong by about one order of magnitude:
Each collapse released about 5 * 10^11 Joules, from potential energy
That's less than half the chemical energy of the jet fuel aboard either plane (ca. 1.2 * 10^12 J).
And that in turn was less than the chemical energy of office contents that burned: NIST estimated 3-4 GJ per workstation (cubicle), and there were typically 150-200 workstations per floor, for a combined 6 * 10^11 J (plus/minus) per floor. With what - 7? - floors burning before collapse, we have fire events releasing up to 4 * 10^12 J - about ten times as much as the collapse mechanics.
You can quantify both the gravitational and chemical
Energy released in the collapses?
I didn't believe that was possible, even Dr. Greening
and Dr.Benson did not do that.
There are variables that make the exact
Energy produced in the collapses impossible
To quantify other than gravitational potential
Which does not take into account reactions
Induced by the collapses themselves.
Without experimental data on possible.energy
Values induced by the collapses any.attempt to
Quantify them is pointless. Past collapse initiation.

Ps. I.was refering to.energy released.over time.
LSSBB'S whole point was that the collapses changed
The dynamics and there fore theses were not normal
Office fires
As was pointed out to me years ago,
You can not even know the amount of unburned
Carbon dust in.the towers that might be
Likely to produce dust explosions and
Reduction reactions in the collapses.

Last edited by Crazy Chainsaw; 5th March 2015 at 04:28 AM. Reason: added last part.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 04:41 AM   #4804
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 10,519
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
@ LSSBB: Presence or absence of iron-rich microspheres resulting from office fires would not depend much on the structural framing - it's not so much the steel that burns and produces ashes.

@ Chris: Difficult for us to guess as we haven't talked with that metallurgist. Does he routinely study ashes using visual light and electron microscopy?
I am not saying the spheres so found would come from ashes, I am saying it would come from heated, painted steel on heated, painted steel friction during the collapse, although in retrospect the painted (or primed) steel itself in the framing exposed to the fire would also be subject. Maybe even exposed steel also. So, you have experimentally analyzed these potential effects yourself and ruled them out as a source, or have references to such work?

ETA: Chemical reactions also during the collapse, as CC says.
__________________
"Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom." (Albert Einstein, 1950)

Last edited by LSSBB; 5th March 2015 at 04:44 AM.
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 05:55 AM   #4805
Crazy Chainsaw
Graduate Poster
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I am not saying the spheres so found would come from ashes, I am saying it would come from heated, painted steel on heated, painted steel friction during the collapse, although in retrospect the painted (or primed) steel itself in the framing exposed to the fire would also be subject. Maybe even exposed steel also. So, you have experimentally analyzed these potential effects yourself and ruled them out as a source, or have references to such work?

ETA: Chemical reactions also during the collapse, as CC says.
A good reference for some of those is Doe-HDBK-1081-2014.PDF.
Unless you have experimental data of your
Own.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 06:11 AM   #4806
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,838
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
You can quantify both the gravitational and chemical
Energy released in the collapses?
I didn't know you'd require to consider the 15 seconds of collapse only. The question is: Where did the iron-rich microspheres in the post-collapse dust come from? Several alternatives are proposed:
1. Thermitic demolition charges planted by the evil government - that's what truthers think
2. Office fires and the heat they generated - that is what RJ Lee, who quantified these spheres, thinks; and so do I
3. They were already in the buildings before 9/11 (fly ash, dust from cutting and welding) - that's what you think
4. Sparks, friction and collisions of steel members during the collapse - that's what you and LSSBB currently wonder
5. Clean-up work after the collapse
And probably more possibilities exist. Two of the least likely, that nonetheless demonstrate that it doesnt't take extremely hot chemical reactions are
6. Star dust
7. Burning steel wool

When Chris Mohr asked a metallurgist, that man said that he had never observed such spheres in the debris from office fires. Chris does not mention collapses. So I spoke only of spheres from fires.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I didn't believe that was possible, even Dr. Greening
and Dr.Benson did not do that.
There are variables that make the exact
Energy produced in the collapses impossible
Oh the source of energy are rather easily quantified - I just did, didn't I? Again, no need to restrict consideration to the 15 seconds of collapse - spheres could have been created, during collapse as well as before and even after.

What Greening struggled to quantify was the energy sinks: How much of the potential (gravitational) energy went into cold-crushing concrete, how much into cold-bending and breaking steel, how much into seismic waves, how much into heat? Especially the energy expended to break concrete is very sensitive to assumptions: It scales with the area of break surfaces, and that scales with the inverted square of average particle size. What Greening lacked reliable and sufficiently exact data on was particle size distribution.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
To quantify other than gravitational potential
Which does not take into account reactions
Induced by the collapses themselves.
Chris and I were clearly talking about office fires. I quantified the avaible chemical energy for those. 35 tons of combustible office contens per floor (order of magnitude). You won't add significantly to that if you are going to speculate about steel surfaces and paint reacting - total paint mass on the steel was 75 tons (order of magnitude), but surely only a very small fraction of that, if any, reacted the way you think, and only 10% or so of that paint was iron from iron oxide - we are talking about much less than a ton - a tiny fraction of total dust.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Without experimental data on possible.energy
Values induced by the collapses any.attempt to
Quantify them is pointless. Past collapse initiation.
I disagree - orders of magnitude and upper and lower limits can be estimated.
For example: To create a "spark" from a collision of a piece of steel, you need to heat the spark (a small mass of iron or iron oxide) to a certain temperature at which it glows. The heat would come from kinetic energy, which in turn came originally from potential energy.
On average, steel fell from a height of 200 meters, so it had a potential energy of (m*g*h)/m = g*h = 9.8*200 J/kg = 2000 J/kg = 2 J/g.
Iron has a heat capacity of 25.1 J/mol/C. With 1 mol iron = 56 g, that's 0.45 J/g/C. The potential energy of the steel is thus enough to heat the same steel to 2/0.45 = 4.4 C.
The heat capacity of iron oxide (Fe2O3) is even larger (0.6 J/g/C).

I don't know how to procede from here, but I think it is safe to say that only tiny tiny amounts of the available energy was expended to chip off surface material and heat it to red-hot and more.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Ps. I.was refering to.energy released.over time.
That's power

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
LSSBB'S whole point was that the collapses changed
The dynamics and there fore theses were not normal
Office fires
For 99.8% of their duration, those were "normal" office fires ("normal" in the sense that they were purely chemical events), and RJ Lee and I contend that many of the iron-rich spheres that ended in the dust were created by those fires.
The collapse dynamic may have added some more, but indeed you cannot, and more importantly: have not quantified if friction could have added significant amounts.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
As was pointed out to me years ago,
You can not even know the amount of unburned
Carbon dust in.the towers that might be
Likely to produce dust explosions and
Reduction reactions in the collapses.
Now that is of course both true and highly relevant: There are myriads of chemical pathways in such large fires involving a very heterogenous mix of chemical substances that very little can be ruled out, very little can be proven or quantified.

Unless by experiment.

And here comes the main thrust of what I argue:
RJ Lee says that microspheres are expected from the "high temperature" event at the WTC - i.e. the fires.
McCrone shows iron-rich particles that he deems typical for various types of ashes and industrial and urban environments.

Even if they, or we, can't explain how these spheres are produced, it seems to be a matter of experience related by these eminent microscopy experts that dusts from high-temperature events, including large fires, leave iron-rich microspheres as a significant marker in the resulting dust. And this in the absence of thermite and collapses.

Chris has one metallurgist who says he does not find such spheres after fires. It's one expert against other experts.

Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I am not saying the spheres so found would come from ashes, I am saying it would come from heated, painted steel on heated, painted steel friction during the collapse, although in retrospect the painted (or primed) steel itself in the framing exposed to the fire would also be subject. Maybe even exposed steel also. So, you have experimentally analyzed these potential effects yourself and ruled them out as a source, or have references to such work?
There are paints involved in office fires too - you heat and burn them, you get ash.
I doubt this would add a significant quantity, but I could be wrong.
Paint layers are only 50 m or so. There was less than 1 ton of steel primer per floor, and only a small percentage of that would heat suffiently to burn off.

Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
ETA: Chemical reactions also during the collapse, as CC says.
Possible contribution, but pales in scale to the real fires.




Let me stress that you are all not wrong - no doubt paint and friction and chemical reactions sparked by collapse forces may contribute to the sphere count - it all strengthens the overall argument LSSBB made elsewhere: It is silly beyond telling that truther believe spheres must come from thermite. Plenty of other possible sources are available and have not been ruled out by truthers.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 06:43 AM   #4807
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 10,519
I raised my question to Chris precisely because the metallurgists opinions were possibly constrained to a situation not completely reflective to the situation we are discussing, to wit: office fires in a multi-story, collapsing steel skyscraper. Maybe office fires in a strip mall somewhere, or in a house firse, or some other non-skyscraper environment do not exhibit the spheres - and that is not the situation we are discussing.
__________________
"Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom." (Albert Einstein, 1950)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 06:51 AM   #4808
Crazy Chainsaw
Graduate Poster
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I didn't know you'd require to consider the 15 seconds of collapse only. The question is: Where did the iron-rich microspheres in the post-collapse dust come from? Several alternatives are proposed:
1. Thermitic demolition charges planted by the evil government - that's what truthers think
2. Office fires and the heat they generated - that is what RJ Lee, who quantified these spheres, thinks; and so do I
3. They were already in the buildings before 9/11 (fly ash, dust from cutting and welding) - that's what you think
4. Sparks, friction and collisions of steel members during the collapse - that's what you and LSSBB currently wonder
5. Clean-up work after the collapse
And probably more possibilities exist. Two of the least likely, that nonetheless demonstrate that it doesnt't take extremely hot chemical reactions are
6. Star dust
7. Burning steel wool

When Chris Mohr asked a metallurgist, that man said that he had never observed such spheres in the debris from office fires. Chris does not mention collapses. So I spoke only of spheres from fires.


Oh the source of energy are rather easily quantified - I just did, didn't I? Again, no need to restrict consideration to the 15 seconds of collapse - spheres could have been created, during collapse as well as before and even after.

What Greening struggled to quantify was the energy sinks: How much of the potential (gravitational) energy went into cold-crushing concrete, how much into cold-bending and breaking steel, how much into seismic waves, how much into heat? Especially the energy expended to break concrete is very sensitive to assumptions: It scales with the area of break surfaces, and that scales with the inverted square of average particle size. What Greening lacked reliable and sufficiently exact data on was particle size distribution.


Chris and I were clearly talking about office fires. I quantified the avaible chemical energy for those. 35 tons of combustible office contens per floor (order of magnitude). You won't add significantly to that if you are going to speculate about steel surfaces and paint reacting - total paint mass on the steel was 75 tons (order of magnitude), but surely only a very small fraction of that, if any, reacted the way you think, and only 10% or so of that paint was iron from iron oxide - we are talking about much less than a ton - a tiny fraction of total dust.


I disagree - orders of magnitude and upper and lower limits can be estimated.
For example: To create a "spark" from a collision of a piece of steel, you need to heat the spark (a small mass of iron or iron oxide) to a certain temperature at which it glows. The heat would come from kinetic energy, which in turn came originally from potential energy.
On average, steel fell from a height of 200 meters, so it had a potential energy of (m*g*h)/m = g*h = 9.8*200 J/kg = 2000 J/kg = 2 J/g.
Iron has a heat capacity of 25.1 J/mol/C. With 1 mol iron = 56 g, that's 0.45 J/g/C. The potential energy of the steel is thus enough to heat the same steel to 2/0.45 = 4.4 C.
The heat capacity of iron oxide (Fe2O3) is even larger (0.6 J/g/C).

I don't know how to procede from here, but I think it is safe to say that only tiny tiny amounts of the available energy was expended to chip off surface material and heat it to red-hot and more.


That's power


For 99.8% of their duration, those were "normal" office fires ("normal" in the sense that they were purely chemical events), and RJ Lee and I contend that many of the iron-rich spheres that ended in the dust were created by those fires.
The collapse dynamic may have added some more, but indeed you cannot, and more importantly: have not quantified if friction could have added significant amounts.


Now that is of course both true and highly relevant: There are myriads of chemical pathways in such large fires involving a very heterogenous mix of chemical substances that very little can be ruled out, very little can be proven or quantified.

Unless by experiment.

And here comes the main thrust of what I argue:
RJ Lee says that microspheres are expected from the "high temperature" event at the WTC - i.e. the fires.
McCrone shows iron-rich particles that he deems typical for various types of ashes and industrial and urban environments.

Even if they, or we, can't explain how these spheres are produced, it seems to be a matter of experience related by these eminent microscopy experts that dusts from high-temperature events, including large fires, leave iron-rich microspheres as a significant marker in the resulting dust. And this in the absence of thermite and collapses.

Chris has one metallurgist who says he does not find such spheres after fires. It's one expert against other experts.


There are paints involved in office fires too - you heat and burn them, you get ash.
I doubt this would add a significant quantity, but I could be wrong.
Paint layers are only 50 m or so. There was less than 1 ton of steel primer per floor, and only a small percentage of that would heat suffiently to burn off.


Possible contribution, but pales in scale to the real fires.




Let me stress that you are all not wrong - no doubt paint and friction and chemical reactions sparked by collapse forces may contribute to the sphere count - it all strengthens the overall argument LSSBB made elsewhere: It is silly beyond telling that truther believe spheres must come from thermite. Plenty of other possible sources are available and have not been ruled out by truthers.
Finely divided steels unless in an air stream
Produce mostly Fe O Fe 3O4. Not Fe nano spheres.
If
your talking Fe 3O4 feO micro spheres then
You are correct that fires would have created
The most of those.
However Chris is refering to Iron micro spheres,
The FeO Fe304 microspheres were about
95 percent of the micro spheres found
By Jones. A little over 5 percent was of
The low Oxygen Iron Type.
I must point out that combustion of zinc
Galvanized steel and in the floor pans and in other
Reaction could account for large numders of
Those as well as other reactions that most
People do not even consider.

A Fe 3O4 macro sphere from oxidized Coaxial cable.



The more work, energized the environment the more unusual
The reactions results will be.

Last edited by Crazy Chainsaw; 5th March 2015 at 08:08 AM. Reason: add photo.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 11:30 AM   #4809
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,838
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Finely divided steels unless in an air stream
Produce mostly Fe O Fe 3O4. Not Fe nano spheres.
If
your talking Fe 3O4 feO micro spheres then
You are correct that fires would have created
The most of those.
Yes.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
The FeO Fe304 microspheres were about
95 percent of the micro spheres found
By Jones.
I have not come across such a number, but it doesn't surprise me the least.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
However Chris is refering to Iron micro spheres, ...
A little over 5 percent was of
The low Oxygen Iron Type.
It's news to me that such data exists. Got a link? I am not sure that Chris is consciously and specifically referring to Fe spheres, as contrasted to FeOx spheres.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I must point out that combustion of zinc
Galvanized steel and in the floor pans and in other
Reaction could account for large numders of
Those as well as other reactions that most
People do not even consider.

A Fe 3O4 macro sphere from oxidized Coaxial cable.



The more work, energized the environment the more unusual
The reactions results will be.
Sounds reasonably plausible.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 11:31 AM   #4810
Crazy Chainsaw
Graduate Poster
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,509
Retrying to post the picture.



1 Fe 3O4 macro sphere of Fe 3O4 from coaxial cable oxidation.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2015, 11:53 AM   #4811
Crazy Chainsaw
Graduate Poster
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes.


I have not come across such a number, but it doesn't surprise me the least.


It's news to me that such data exists. Got a link? I am not sure that Chris is consciously and specifically referring to Fe spheres, as contrasted to FeOx spheres.


Sounds reasonably plausible.
The source is Dr. Jones directly before I sent him the sphere in the picture in 2006.
That information has never been made public.
Jones has always only been interested in solid or mostly solid Fe particles.
He also was interested in pure aluminum micro spheres, that he thought were non reacted
Thermite.
The chips were just his last try to prove his Idiotic Ideas to his worshippers.
That sphere formed in an energetic reaction with thousands of other mico spheres some were decarbonized steel Iron.
A larger mass of steel has to be converted to Fe 3O4 to form nano spheres that occurs in hydrogen, Or carbon monoxide blasts where steel is ignited and the steel and combustion gases prevent small particles of Iron molten from Oxidizing.
Or in reduction reactions in those blasts that convert Iron oxides back to Iron.
micro spheres.
Welding and grinding micro spheres decarbonized also, to iron.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:30 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.