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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 29th July 2010, 02:42 AM   #281
Gandalfs Beard
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Funny you should bring up the Boy Scouts Mr D, because religious indoctrination is clearly part of their program. And 62% of the troops are directly chartered by Christian Denominations. They are constantly embroiled in discrimination suits as they refuse to admit Atheists and Gays. So YES, the Boy Scouts ARE a Religiously Oriented Youth Group, and AVOWEDLY so.

Example FAIL

The Congressional Oath of Office is a violation of the separation of Church and State and references to God should be stricken. But your attempt to use that oath of office to conflate a Religious Organization with a Political Organization is at best disingenuous.

Example Fail 2

GB
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Old 29th July 2010, 02:44 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
I also noticed the tendency of many participants in AA to simply switch addictions. Many of my ex-stepfather's meetings were conducted in smoke-filled, caffienated, donut munching sessions.
Are you claiming that the tendency to switch addictions is a defining characteristic of AA members or addicts? If it's the former, then please cite. If it's the later, then your observation isn't really a claim about AA at all.


Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
It is likely, though debatable, that one or two of the twelve steps might actually be psychologically beneficial
Really? Most of the secular variants of the 12 step programs break them out something like this:

1,3 =~ Admitting there's a problem and asking for help
4 =~ Self examination (5 =~ with a peer or therapist)
6/7 =~ Commitment to change underlying problems
8-10 =~ Stop being a jerk
12 =~ Pay it forward.

And you see only possible psychological benefits in only one or two of these?

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
And for all that AA's rhetoric is that there are 'no rules', this is belied if you actually challenge any of the Steps
Evidence? I don't pray, and I say so. I've never had any AA sanctions because of it.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
Nearly all other 12 step programs are based almost entirely on AA's model. And the Judicial system DOES force people into these programs all the time, which amounts to State sanctioning of Religion.
It's not uncontroversial, and some groups choose not to sign court documents. But more to the point, which religion is it sanctioning exactly? Zoroastrianism? Buddhism? Satanism? (Hey, if you want to make Lucifer the God of your understanding, you're free to start your own group!). As far as I'm concerned, as long as the court doesn't specify which group of which 12 step program, it's clear - of State v. Religion (though constant vigilance is surely prudent.)

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
There are many reasons for Alcoholism, ranging from socio-psychological traumas, political-economic traumas, mere hedonistic inculcation, habituation, and neurological predilections, or a combination thereof.

...

Still, insofar as some forms of Alcoholism may respond to Medical Therapy, a scientific approach of treating the underlying neurological causes instead of the symptoms (self-medicating with alcohol or other drugs) is a far better approach to treatment.

...

Psychological and Psychiatric professionals can also help some "addicts" work through the underlying causes of their problems, such as dealing with depression, schizophrenia, and other issues directly. And other Medical professionals can help people who are often dealing with Chronic Pain issues by self-medicating.
Indeed. But AA doesn't purport to treat neurological or psychological problems (Unfortunately some individuals and groups do), and in fact encourages members to seek outside help for problems other than alcoholism.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
In many cases, "addiction" runs rampant in the politically and economically dispossessed and oppressed communities. In which case the best "cure" is political/economic enfranchisement and the curbing of Economic Exploitation.
No argument here, but what does that have to do with AA being or not being a religion?

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
In conclusion: I am no expert, but I think it should be clear that the Religious and Disease models of addiction often obfuscate the fact that addictive patterns of behaviour are more often than not, SYMPTOMS of deeper problems, for which many people self-medicate.
Note that AA treats alcoholism as a symptom of underlying problems - that it does so using the terminology of 'sins' is indeed using religious terminology, but I will posit that most secular bodies consider things like inappropriate or excessive anger, greed, lust etc. to be character flaws possibly indicative of underlying problems.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
Some of the most successful programs have been experimental programs in Europe with psychotropics such as Ibogaine, which gives people a chance to "break" their obsessive patterns of behaviour, which in turn gives people a chance to discover the underlying causes of their problems.
AA is open to such, you know.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional by Wendy Kaminer-- which examines the self-help movement over-all from the Pseudoscience of 12 steps to New Age "therapies".
Don't conflate all new-age/self-help with AA. That some new-age movements have borrowed AA concepts and terminology is hardly the fault of AA, just as new agers adoption of some the language of quantum mechanics is not a reflection of the wooish nature of QM.
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Old 29th July 2010, 02:47 AM   #283
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Your original claim:
Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
AA is a RELIGION. End of Story.
Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
So YES, the Boy Scouts ARE a Religiously Oriented Youth Group, and AVOWEDLY so.
I ask again: Are the Boy Scouts a RELIGION? (I freely admit they are religiously oriented)

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
The Congressional Oath of Office is a violation of the separation of Church and State and references to God should be stricken.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
But your attempt to use that oath of office to conflate a Religious Organization with a Political Organization is at best disingenuous.
The conflation is yours. YOU cited the presence of religious terms like "God" in official AA literature as proof ("End of story") that AA is a RELIGION.

I made the counterpoint that the presence of the word "God" in the Congressional Oath does not make Congress a RELIGION.
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Old 29th July 2010, 03:38 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
I ask again: Are the Boy Scouts a RELIGION? (I freely admit they are religiously oriented)
You're being silly because you lost the argument.

When I read what he wrote, I interpreted it as "AA is so religious it might as well be called a religion". You are interpreting obvious rhetoric literally as, again, you lost the argument.

My 2c.
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Old 29th July 2010, 04:09 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
You're being silly because you lost the argument.

When I read what he wrote, I interpreted it as "AA is so religious it might as well be called a religion". You are interpreting obvious rhetoric literally as, again, you lost the argument.

My 2c.
Here : Make it 4c in the pot and get the rhetoric out of the way.

I fully and freely admit that AA has religious qualities.

I claim that it lacks some of the necessary qualities that would make it a religion - and that's what people mean when they call it a spiritual and not religious program.



ETA: Hell, Make it 6c.

I'll even admit that some people and groups mix AA and their own particular religion in a way that makes AA appear overtly and explicitly Christian.

I claim that is insufficient to qualify all of AA as "so religious it might as well be called a religion"
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Old 29th July 2010, 04:11 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
It's not uncontroversial, and some groups choose not to sign court documents. But more to the point, which religion is it sanctioning exactly? Zoroastrianism? Buddhism? Satanism?


Boy it's fun to simply pick a side in a debate and stick to it, eh ?
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Old 29th July 2010, 04:15 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Hobbies become obsessive, not addictive - the word addictive is being misused here. Hobbies are a mental obsession only. Addiction is the physical dependance coupled with the mental obsession.
The physical dependance is the what moves it from (say) a mental disorder to a disease.

I hope that helps clear things up.
So you fundamentally disagree with terms like gambling addiction.
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Old 29th July 2010, 04:16 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by godofpie View Post
AA Alfie-
I am coming to the conclusion that (most) of the people in this thread that are arguing against AA don't have any real desire to learn about AA or how it really works (which is different for different people).
Or how it is so much more effective than anything else but with no documentation to back it up. You got to take it on faith that it works better than the alternatives.
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Old 29th July 2010, 04:19 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
Bits from the Boy Scouts of America Oath and Law

Are the Boy Scouts a religion?
Of course no one tries to deny that they are a religious organization either. See their banning of atheists, much more direct and clear than AA.
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Old 29th July 2010, 04:24 AM   #290
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Quote:
1. We admitted we were powerless over addiction--that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that The Program, as a power greater than ourselves, could help us toward normal living.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care this program and to the loving care of this group.
4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of our character for ourselves.
5. Admitted to our group, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our faults and misdeeds.
6. Were entirely ready to practice the program in order to remove our defects of character.
7. Humbly asked the help of others in the removal of our short comings and resolved to work to remove these faults ourselves.
8. Made a list of all persons we harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through study and meditation to improve our awareness of law and of the natural forces that govern life hoping only for knowledge of right and wrong and the strength to follow that knowledge.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Changing a few words doesn't change the fact that most of these are essentially religious tenets. Instead of God, The Program and The Group are the "Higher Power". My point that a few of these tenets (yes "1 or 2" was a bit of hyperbole) might have some merit anyway, doesn't detract from the fact that the entire basis for the so-called "Secular" Twelve Steps is still modeled on the AA "Religion". It's an improvement, but not by much.

Quote:
Mr D:
The conflation is yours. YOU cited the presence of religious terms like "God" in official AA literature as proof "End of story" that AA is a RELIGION.

I made the counterpoint that the presence of the word "God" in the Congressional Oath does not make Congress a RELIGION.
Apparently Mr D, you are a dishonest debater as well as a conflater. AA is not simply a religion because it only "occasionally" uses religious language. It is almost entirely couched in religious language, and a Belief in God is foundational to AA that is hammered home again and again in the Steps themselves (which, as has been pointed out, aren't really "suggestions" at all).

There is a world of difference between that and disingenuously conflating it with the inappropriate insertion of "God" into supposedly secular Loyalty Oaths. But you know that and are simply trying to score a dishonest point.

Quote:
Evidence? I don't pray, and I say so. I've never had any AA sanctions because of it.
Goody for you that YOU weren't sanctioned. I'm sure those who have been given the cold shoulder are happy for you.

Quote:
I ask again: Are the Boy Scouts a RELIGION?
I never said they were. I said they were a Religiously oriented Youth Group, largely made up of Christians that Discriminate against Atheists and Gays, and intends to instill religious values. And they make no bones about it. Your point is again designed to obfuscate and conflate.

Quote:
Are you claiming that the tendency to switch addictions is a defining characteristic of AA members or addicts? If it's the former, then please cite. If it's the later, then your observation isn't really a claim about AA at all.
No, it's a claim about the ineffectiveness of AA.

Quote:
It's not uncontroversial, and some groups choose not to sign court documents. But more to the point, which religion is it sanctioning exactly? Zoroastrianism? Buddhism? Satanism? (Hey, if you want to make Lucifer the God of your understanding, you're free to start your own group!). As far as I'm concerned, as long as the court doesn't specify which group of which 12 step program, it's clear - of State v. Religion (though constant vigilance is surely prudent.)
Depending on the particular program, AA is either Christian or a form of Universalism. But seeing as the language I quoted is from the Official AA Website, it's readily apparent that it is foundationally Judeo-Christian, following from a Monotheist model.

The point is that it IS Theistic at all. But again, you know this and are just trying it on to see if I'm dumb enough to buy your sophistry.

Quote:
AA is open to such, you know.
Oh REALLY!!! Ibogaine trials have been suppressed in the US. And I bet you won't be able to back that up with an Official AA statement from its National or International offices. Though, I'll grant that maybe you'll find some local group or individual somewhere that is open to it.

But, when I challenged a regional spokesperson on a talk radio programme, they adamantly opposed the idea of using psychotropics as a means to break patterns of habituation. Admittedly, that is anecdotal, but I have yet to see any official statement from AA to the contrary.

Quote:
Don't conflate all new-age/self-help with AA. That some new-age movements have borrowed AA concepts and terminology is hardly the fault of AA, just as new agers adoption of some the language of quantum mechanics is not a reflection of the wooish nature of QM.
Why not? If the shoe fits.... You haven't demonstrated that the religious tenets of AA are any more effective than that of Norman Vincent Peel or Werner Erhardt or Marianne Williamson.

There is a clear lineage of the merging of early 20th century Protestant "self-help" movements with the various 19th and 20th century Spiritualist, Theosophist, and other such Movements. In the late 70's and 80's they all became part of the "New Age", borrowing freely from each other in a Neo-Syncretic manner.

As to New Agers adopting Quantum Mechanics, it was the other way round. Physicists themselves were finding parallels between the implications of the New Physics and Eastern Mysticism.

In the end, I'm not opposed to AA merely because it is religious, I am opposed to fraudulent claims that it is NOT. And I am opposed to its fraudulent claims of effectiveness. And I am opposed to its ubiquitous and dubious claims to being the Gold Standard of Treatment.

I am opposed to the fact that it has usurped the Moral High Ground and controls the Framing of the debate when it comes to issues of Decriminalization and Legalization of other drugs. I am opposed to its inherently religious philosophies and pseudo-psychology which has been adapted to secular forms. I am opposed to its conflation of Sin and Disease. And I am opposed to its ideology.

for those few it benefits, more power to them. But its about time that AA and its derivatives were entirely separated from the Judicial and Medical systems and relegated to being what they are: Religious support groups for those so inclined to join them.

GB
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Old 29th July 2010, 04:30 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But alcoholism IS drinking.
Actually... You're wrong. For once, A.A.Alife is correct.

Even the CDC recognizes Alcholisim as a disease and it makes a special note to differentiate between alchoholism and alchohol abuse.

A person can be an achoholic without touching a single drink the same way that a person can be gay or straight and still be a virgin.

A person's sexual preference is not a choice but choosing to have sex with an individual is a choice.
(sorry for a terrible analogy but it's the only one I can think of)

Now I would agree with you that it would seem that "disorder" would be a better fit than "disease", but I'm not a doctor, psychologist, lawyer or any professional in the field so I would have to go by what the professionals say unless anyone can discredit their credentials to do so.

Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
I posit that one of the defining characteristics of a religion is that one cannot belong to more than one at a time. (I'll note that by this definition, certain modern movements like universalism aren't clearly religions either)
That's a form of sematics. The definition of religion is already shaky enough as it is without us all going to run up to our current dictionaries and look up whether it fits or not. How many threads do we have open on it already?

I understand that you responded to a specific post and you are correct to a certain extent, but let's focus on the original op of whether or not AA is religious rather than religion.

And while we're at it, let me ask you since the issue of "disease" was raised.

As I said above, why is the entire process of AA based on religious\cultish\quackery oratory?
Seriously, if this is a medical issue why don't we have a medical treatment?

Let's take the reasoning that A.A.Alife gave to show that AA works:
1)He knows it does
2)Many people believe it helped them
3)Just try it out
4)What's the harm?

Seriously, have you ever heard of a real medical treatment that gives that as a reasoning for a treatment?
This is quite often recited amongst religions, cults, new age treatments and other form of quackery but never in the medical communinty.

Furthermore, A.A.Alife was repeatadly asked "what are the rules\charactaristcs of the AA treatment?" to which he constantly responded with the siliness of "there are no rules"
So every single person on earth is in AA from the moment of birth as there are no rules to follow or break.

How many medical treatments do you know that are completely undefined?
Of course the undefine part is completely absurd. AA does have some basic form, but why is it so hard to flat out say its guidelines?

How many medical treatments do you know that are completely unmonitored?
Again, how do we know that 12 steps is the way to go?
Maybe 11 are enough to do the trick better?
Maybe there is a 13 one that would do a much better job overall?
Who monitors and performs the double blind study to check the efficiency of variations (as well as comparing to no treatments)?
Heck, what are the big numbers and why doesn't AA publish them constantly?
Again, common practice amongst medical professionals but not amongst quacks and cults.

In this instance, absense of evidence is evidence of absence.
If the numbers would be in their favor, they would publish them and shove them to everyone's face and rightfully so.
But they don't and there's a reason to it.
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Old 29th July 2010, 05:18 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
I read the first couple of pages on this thread and the last couple, so forgive me if anyone has already covered the following:

... big snip...

In conclusion: I am no expert,
Only the relevant bits have been retained.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But alcoholism IS drinking. Look at me for instance: I have trouble staying away from food. Candy and chocolate, specifically. It's an addiction, to a degree, but I'll be damned if someone calls it a disease.
They don't, no one else here has that I recall.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How am I "yet to explains this", exactly ?

Religious cults are dangerous and harmful. Cloaking such religiosity in a veil of salvation for desperate people, if done intentionally, is downright evil.
Religious cults may be harmful, but that would be a discussion for another time.
How is AA "dangerous", "harmful" and "downright evil"?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Or how it is so much more effective than anything else but with no documentation to back it up. You got to take it on faith that it works better than the alternatives.
Who has said that?
Show me some stats on the alternatives. I really want to see them, I have asked repeatedly for them, and guess what? Nada!

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
In the end, I'm not opposed to AA merely because it is religious, I am opposed to fraudulent claims that it is NOT. And I am opposed to its fraudulent claims of effectiveness. And I am opposed to its ubiquitous and dubious claims to being the Gold Standard of Treatment.
Where is this (bold) claim made, except perhaps by individuals who do not represent AA?

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
I am opposed to the fact that it has usurped the Moral High Ground and controls the Framing of the debate when it comes to issues of Decriminalization and Legalization of other drugs.
You really have to back these lies up with something GB

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
I am opposed to its inherently religious philosophies and pseudo-psychology which has been adapted to secular forms. I am opposed to its conflation of Sin and Disease. And I am opposed to its ideology.GB
That's nice, but we really don't give a flying run at a doughnut about what you support or oppose, we are having a discussion. Get off your soap box and get with the program mate.

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
And while we're at it, let me ask you since the issue of "disease" was raised.

As I said above, why is the entire process of AA based on religious\cultish\quackery oratory?
Seriously, if this is a medical issue why don't we have a medical treatment?
We do. It is called detox, rehab and maintenance.
AA forms part of the maintenance for many. There are others too (gasp), I am wanting some stats on them by the way.

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
Furthermore, A.A.Alife was repeatadly asked "what are the rules\charactaristcs of the AA treatment?" to which he constantly responded with the siliness of "there are no rules"
Correct.

A very difficult thing to understand in a world from which we demand order and structure.
But there it is, there are no rules save for the guidance provided by the 12 traditions.

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
Heck, what are the big numbers and why doesn't AA publish them constantly?
If the numbers would be in their favor, they would publish them and shove them to everyone's face and rightfully so.
But they don't and there's a reason to it.
Correct, it is called anonymity.

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Old 29th July 2010, 05:34 AM   #293
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Quote:
GMFox:
Even the CDC recognizes Alcholisim as a disease and it makes a special note to differentiate between alchoholism and alchohol abuse.

A person can be an achoholic without touching a single drink the same way that a person can be gay or straight and still be a virgin.
True, but the CDC and the Medical Community's lumping together of all forms of alcoholism into a disease model is dubious, and politically (rather than medically) based on the Sin/Disease model that has become the de facto model for addiction. It has become more a PC article of Faith, thanks to AA's cultural propaganda. This is probably one of the key reasons why I dislike AA so much.

As I pointed out earlier, the reasons for "addictive" behaviour are varied, and shouldn't all be treated in the same manner. The Medical Community has truncated its own ability to respond empirically by adopting the "Disease" Model of "addiction".

Indeed, it's even debatable that some forms of "addiction" are always "bad" and must always be treated. The Medical Community (particularly in the US), with its strong ties to the Pharmaceutical/Insurance complex make big money off of this dubious classification of "addiction" as "disease".

It's not so easy to separate out the political/economic factors that drive the growth of the Mental Health Industry from ACTUAL biological problems stemming from neurological and psychiatric disorders. Often, people self medicating with relatively safer drugs like Marijuana, are forced by the legal system to buy expensive, dangerous, and barely tested pharmaceuticals.

Chronic Pain sufferers are forced into strict dosage regimens of opiate based drugs when higher doses might actually be more beneficial, because doctors have been constrained by the political ideology of addiction.

AA is directly responsible for creating much of the Puritanical language, and shaping the political debate--particularly in the US, and by extension its allies--surrounding "Addiction", Prohibition, and the Drug War. It is no accident that it was founded by Protestants, and that it continues to promote a Puritan Ideology.

GB
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Old 29th July 2010, 05:38 AM   #294
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Someone asked me here the other day (and apologies to who it was) whether I felt it was OK for the courts to send individuals to AA as punishment. I hedged at the time as I wished to think about it some more.

Bear in mind that here in Australia, there is no "go to AA" type punishment, they are sent to counsellors like me for assistance with drug and alcohol, relationships, men's bahavioural change, anger management etc.

I have given this some more thought and no, I don't think it is OK on a number of levels (I paraphrase a little):-
I don't think it is in line with AAs traditions
- we should be self supporting...
- ..not get drawn into outside issues.
- attraction not promotion.
I also think the state is abdicating from its responsibilities in some ways.
- (while I reject the "religion" judgements) it is tantamount to imposing someone to go attend something that may fall outside their personal convictions. That said, so could prison, a psychologists, counsellors and others.
- given the free cost of AA, it smacks of handing the cost elsewhere (this saves both the state and/or individual in terms of $). I'm not sure that 'punishment' per se, should be free in terms of financial cost, time, effort etc.
- It puts a very negative slant on AA as it has been framed in terms of a punishment from the outset.
- It also gets people to AA that simply aren't ready (i.e. pre contemplative) and that is a waste of time for everybody.
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Old 29th July 2010, 05:43 AM   #295
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
True, but the CDC and the Medical Community's lumping together of all forms of alcoholism into a disease model is dubious, and politically (rather than medically) based on the Sin/Disease model that has become the de facto model for addiction. It has become more a PC article of Faith, thanks to AA's cultural propaganda. This is probably one of the key reasons why I dislike AA so much.
You'd better ring and let them know, quick!
They've been waiting on your advice.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
AA is directly responsible for
1/. creating much of Puritanical language, and
2/. shaping the political debate--particularly in the US, and by extension
3/. its allies--surrounding "Addiction", Prohibition, and the Drug War.
It is no accident that it was founded by Protestants, and that it continues to promote a Puritan Ideology.

GB
Unbelievable BS!

First: Back up 1, 2 and 3.
The define Puritanical Ideology for us.

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Old 29th July 2010, 06:23 AM   #296
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Quote:
AAAlfie:
Only the relevant bits have been retained.
Spoken like a true Quack!

You have no argument because I demonstrated your lies with AA's own words. Very convenient of you to snip them instead of responding.

Your response to my comment about AA setting itself up as the Gold Standard of Treatment:
Quote:
Where is this (bold) claim made, except by individuals who do not represent AA?
So you defend AA, but you don't represent it? How does that work exactly? Besides which, the Official AA website's menus are quite revealing:

Quote:
(Part of a drop down menu on AA's website)
Information For Professionals
About A.A. - Newsletter for Professionals
A.A. as a Resource for the Health Care Professional
A.A. as a Resource for Drug & Alcohol Court Professionals
A Message to Correctional Professionals
Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics Anonymous
Is There an Alcoholic in the Workplace?
If You Are a Professional, A.A. Wants to Work With You
Anonymity Letter to Media
Request Information by Mail
Oh Yeah! Right! NO Hubris there.

Quote:
Me:
I am opposed to the fact that it has usurped the Moral High Ground and controls the Framing of the debate when it comes to issues of Decriminalization and Legalization of other drugs.
Quote:
AAAlfie:
You really have to back these lies up with something GB
AA is a direct descendant of the Protestant Temperance and Prohibition Movements. As a prominent force and widely accepted standard, AA's Puritan ideology and language has largely defined the political debate surrounding such issues, and continues to do so to this day.

The so-called "Secular" 12 Steps is a testimony to how far into the collective consciousness Protestantism has reached. As have the Just Say No and Abstinence Only messages.

Quote:
AAAlfie:
That's nice, but we really don't give a flying run at a doughnut about what you support or oppose, we are having a discussion. Get off your soap box and get with the program mate.
Yes, you're so unconcerned that you spend an inordinate amount of time on your own soapbox engaging in unsubstantiated attempts to convince us that AA has no religious/political agenda. Forgive me for deigning to step on your Holy Toes, and not bowing to your eternal wisdom.

GB
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Old 29th July 2010, 06:54 AM   #297
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Because you're an Aussie AAAlfie, and your political system hasn't been as corrupted by the Theocratic designs of Right Wing Evangelical Protestants as it has here in the US, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually have no idea what you're talking about.

Its not within the purview of this thread to give you a history lesson. Suffice it to say that YOUR Australian Protestant Temperance Movement lost the battle for Prohibition. Here in the US they succeeded for 13 brutal years from 1920-1933, and their rhetoric has held the "high ground" except briefly in the late 60' and 70's.

Then came Reagan and the 80's, and "Just Say NO" and "Abstinence Only" again became the rhetorical currency of the politically correct. And AA (remember, AA was started in the late 30's after the failure of Prohibition by Protestants for Protestants) has been a Major Player in the Modern Temperance Movement.

And actually, some prominent members of the medical community do occasionally question the current political ideology only to commit career suicide.

This is all Factual History. But I'll let you do your own damn research. You're on the JREF forum, I rather thought you might be better informed.

GB
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Old 29th July 2010, 06:58 AM   #298
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Who has said that?
Show me some stats on the alternatives. I really want to see them, I have asked repeatedly for them, and guess what? Nada!
You made the claim that it is significantly more effective back your claim up.


Oh yea you just lie about even making that claim.
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Old 29th July 2010, 07:11 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
Actually... You're wrong. For once, A.A.Alife is correct.

Even the CDC recognizes Alcholisim as a disease and it makes a special note to differentiate between alchoholism and alchohol abuse.

A person can be an achoholic without touching a single drink the same way that a person can be gay or straight and still be a virgin.
So, you're saying that alcoholism is genetic ? I don't buy it. SOME people may have genetic predilections but people can and do abuse all sorts of stuff, alcohol included.
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Old 29th July 2010, 07:12 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
They don't, no one else here has that I recall.
So that only applies to alcohol ? Strange.

Quote:
Religious cults may be harmful, but that would be a discussion for another time.
How is AA "dangerous", "harmful" and "downright evil"?
Because it's a religious cult ?

Gee, that was easy.
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Old 29th July 2010, 07:13 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
You'd better ring and let them know, quick!
They've been waiting on your advice.
Solid argument, or thinly veiled insult ?
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Old 29th July 2010, 11:09 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Still waiting for where this occured in this thread. Seems you might have been lying?


Here's the post you did not respond to:


Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Epic fail - I asked for you to prove it without qualification - there was heaps in there, death being just one choice out of many I offered. But thanks for trying.

Alcohol kills alcoholics, remember? Not two weeks go by and I see someone reject the possibility of recovery (whether they try AA, rehab, detox or something else) and die. So why not try AA?

I wonder what would have happened if Complexity's partner tried AA? I wonder if he would have been one of the 9%?
Imagine that, 9% saved from death or worse because they went to AA, with or without religion.

tsig:
Just can't help contradicting yourself.





http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=237
Before you call me a liar again you better have proof.

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Old 29th July 2010, 11:36 AM   #303
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GB - thanks for the compliment, and you're doing an excellent job - I had to take a short break from this thread as the cult 'without question' supporters were just not looking at the facts (as cult members do everywhere) - and continue to ignore actual data substituting faith and anecdote (gee, sounds just like some religions I can think of - I wonder why that is?).

Belz & Ts, both doing very well carrying the skeptic debate forward using logic and facts. Thanks!

As I've mentioned multiple times, I have 21 years in AA and continue to attend regularly (my reasons are elsewhere in this thread) - people really need solid info on what AA is (and isn't), and so I speak out both inside and outside AA (the feedback from inside AA is just brutal - no other word to describe it - for the most part, as you might imagine happens when anyone starts questioning someone's religion).

I'm taking a short 2-3 day break from this thread (forced, due to workload), but will check in and post more in a day or 3.

Another way to put it - AA has a 95% failure rate, Doing nothing means 5% of a given population will get sober on their own every year. Not the sort of program we should be forcing people into, nor claiming amazing success rates ('Rarely have we seen a person fail...etc), nor supporting a multi-billion dollar enterprise of networked 12 step treatment centers funneling in new recruits...

Interesting bit of news from the very top of AA - it has to do with AA just now noticing their membership has stayed at roughly 2 million for more than 15 years now and isn't growing (may even be declining), and they are starting to talk about 'how to attract agnostic's and atheists'. More on that later.

A link (one of several I've posted) to some solid data on the 95% failure rates and other solid data on AA's effectiveness, since apparently the AA supporters on this thread haven't read the other links I've posted I doubt they'll read this one:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

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Old 29th July 2010, 02:07 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
You are half right here.
Alcoholism is not a choice, drinking is. One will rarely know of they are going to be an alcoholic until it is too late.



Hobbies become obsessive, not addictive - the word addictive is being misused here. Hobbies are a mental obsession only. Addiction is the physical dependance coupled with the mental obsession.
The physical dependance is the what moves it from (say) a mental disorder to a disease.

I hope that helps clear things up.

Um, no.

It is the behavior that defines addiction, physical withdrawal symptoms are not needed. Now I know that you have probably been trained or something, but you are wrong in that.

There is addiction, there is addiction, there is no 'disease addiction', there is no 'psychological addiction' there is addiction.

Symptoms of physical withdrawal are NOT needed, this is the crazy thinking that led many people to believe 'cocaine is not addictive'.

And your nomenclature is way messed up, some 'mental disorders' are diseases, some are not . But addiction is a mental health issue, it is not a 'disease' in the most common usage of the word.

Now since you are from Aussieland you are more likely to use the ICD-10

Here is the qualifier for *.2 dependence

Quote:
.2 Dependence syndrome
A cluster of behavioural, cognitive, and physiological phenomena that develop after repeated substance use and that typically include a strong desire to take the drug, difficulties in controlling its use, persisting in its use despite harmful consequences, a higher priority given to drug use than to other activities and obligations, increased tolerance, and sometimes a physical withdrawal state.

The dependence syndrome may be present for a specific psychoactive substance (e.g. tobacco, alcohol, or diazepam), for a class of substances (e.g. opioid drugs), or for a wider range of pharmacologically different psychoactive substances.
Note the ‘sometimes a physical withdrawal state’.

Now the DSM is similar BUT ‘symptoms of withdrawal’ are not a requirement for addiction.

And IN FACT you can be an ‘alcoholic’ and NOT have any symptoms of withdrawal.

And ALL psychoactive substances do WHAT? They cross the blood brain barriers and all people who have addictions that are not to substances have physical brains, they are ALL 'mental disorders'.

Addiction is a behavioral disorder is may or may not have biological vulnerabilities, it may or may not have withdrawal syndromes, BUT they are behavioral.
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Old 29th July 2010, 06:18 PM   #305
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post

.. big snip..
removal of BS

GB
Lots of ad homs in there as usual.
It is obvious you don't care for discussion and education of any sort.

You refuse to respond to any questions at all and couple it with a lot of 'I know better than the experts" claims.
Perhaps you and your infinite wisdom should be my higher power.

If you can respond to my challenge of "liar" (which you are and know it) with some data and/or evidence, I will be happy to re-engage.

Until then, you are wasting our collective time.

You are No #2 on my ignore list.
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Old 29th July 2010, 06:21 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
As I've mentioned multiple times, I have 21 years in AA and continue to attend regularly (my reasons are elsewhere in this thread) - people really need solid info on what AA is (and isn't), and so I speak out both inside and outside AA (the feedback from inside AA is just brutal - no other word to describe it - for the most part, as you might imagine happens when anyone starts questioning someone's religion).

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
Did/does AA work for you?
Did you embrace a higher power?

Why won't you respond to these questions.

Do you not disagree with the OP that AA does not have to be religious for it to work?
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Old 29th July 2010, 08:03 PM   #307
Tinyal
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Did/does AA work for you?
Embracing AA's core doctrine - that being Bill's claim that except in very rare, unheard of cases, it is impossible to get and maintain sobriety unless one develops a concious contact with a 'higher power' - no, that did not work for me. SOS's 'play the movie to the end' and my own will , coupled with the fact I was sick and tired of being sick and tired, as well as socializing/relearning how to be part of a social group - these are what worked for me - and have continued to work for the last 21 sober years.

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Did you embrace a higher power?
No, I do not. Nor have I ever done so. The reason? (as I am sure you are going to ask next) - there is no evidence a 'higher power' as defined by Bill's writings exists. There is also no evidence a soul apart from a physical brain exists. Additionally, there is no evidence a 'spirit' world exists. No evidence ever, not when Bill was writing the big book, not in the last 2000 years - not ever.
No evidence = No Belief a 'higher power' exists.
Do you believe in things that don't have any evidence they exist? I don't.

Of course there are things that are more powerful than I, ranging from the muscular bodybuilders to a raging spacecraft - but all these types of 'higher powers' have evidence (repeatable, transferable, etc) for their existence, and these types of things are clearly not what bill was thinking of when he grudgingly wrote 'power greater than yourselves' - he was referring to the judeochristian god specifically.

Note: I suggest everyone interested in what AA doctrine really says about 'higher powers' read Chapter 4, as in it Bill quite clearly states that using the group as a higher power is only meant as a small start - a first step - to developing a relationship with god, and is not meant as a final choice.


Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Why won't you respond to these questions.
Unlike yourself, I do respond honestly to questions - and have all throughout this thread.
Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Do you not disagree with the OP that AA does not have to be religious for it to work?
No, I do not - the data I've posted and referred to makes clear that AA is religious (specifically designed for cult conversion to a bastardized version of xianity) - if something works, and it isn't religious (such as a SOS or SMART self help group) - or using the group as a higher power permanently - then it's fine and dandy, but it's not AA.
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Old 29th July 2010, 08:27 PM   #308
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Quote:
AAAlfie:
You are No #2 on my ignore list.
Excellent. Let me know when I'm number 1.

Quote:
Lots of ad homs in there as usual.
Let me know when you get a dictionary and learn the definition of ad hominem. So far, the most I can be accused of is sarcasm.

Quote:
It is obvious you don't care for discussion and education of any sort.

You refuse to respond to any questions at all and couple it with a lot of 'I know better than the experts" claims.
Perhaps you and your infinite wisdom should be my higher power.

If you can respond to my challenge of "liar" (which you are and know it) with some data and/or evidence, I will be happy to re-engage.

Until then, you are wasting our collective time.
WOW! Project much?

So far I have responded to most of your points.

You, on the other hand have responded to NONE of mine AT ALL. Instead, you use your rhetorical scissors to dismiss my arguments out of hand, and with vindictiveness. I haven't engaged in ad hominem yet, but seeing as you've got nothing else but, I now feel free to do so.

I can't believe you're a "counselor". I shudder to think of the damage you're causing.

You pontificate and bluster with manufactured outrage, because you have no argument. And because I prefer "experts" to have at least a minimal background in Empiricism, and to be free of the corrupting effects of Theocratic and Commercial Politics, you make unfounded accusations that I think I'm better than experts.

I make no such claims. But I do think my analysis is on the mark, and it has apparently struck a nerve. Besides which, many of the so-called experts have little to show for their "expertise" except increasing numbers of people with "addictions".

But in the end, my preference is not to simply parrot supposed "experts" in a debate, but present an analysis that utilizes Empirical Evidence (as in AA's own source material) and analyses it in its geo-historical and political contexts. If you don't know the historical, religious and political contexts of your own organization, it's no wonder you have no argument.

The only person wasting time here is YOU, expecting your outrage to cover your lack of argument, data, or analysis.

At least Mr D, proffered an argument of sorts, devious and sophist though it was. Where's yours? I suspect you shot your wad a few pages ago and have nothing left but invective.

GB
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Old 29th July 2010, 08:38 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Lots of ad homs in there as usual.
It is obvious you don't care for discussion and education of any sort.

You refuse to respond to any questions at all and couple it with a lot of 'I know better than the experts" claims.
Perhaps you and your infinite wisdom should be my higher power.

If you can respond to my challenge of "liar" (which you are and know it) with some data and/or evidence, I will be happy to re-engage.

Until then, you are wasting our collective time.

You are No #2 on my ignore list.
Well ignoring the argument is one way of dealing with it.

ETA:Why didn't you answer my post 302?

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Old 29th July 2010, 08:50 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
Embracing AA's core doctrine - that being Bill's claim that except in very rare, unheard of cases, it is impossible to get and maintain sobriety unless one develops a concious contact with a 'higher power' - no, that did not work for me. SOS's 'play the movie to the end' and my own will , coupled with the fact I was sick and tired of being sick and tired, as well as socializing/relearning how to be part of a social group - these are what worked for me - and have continued to work for the last 21 sober years.



No, I do not. Nor have I ever done so. The reason? (as I am sure you are going to ask next) - there is no evidence a 'higher power' as defined by Bill's writings exists. There is also no evidence a soul apart from a physical brain exists. Additionally, there is no evidence a 'spirit' world exists. No evidence ever, not when Bill was writing the big book, not in the last 2000 years - not ever.
No evidence = No Belief a 'higher power' exists.
Do you believe in things that don't have any evidence they exist? I don't.

Of course there are things that are more powerful than I, ranging from the muscular bodybuilders to a raging spacecraft - but all these types of 'higher powers' have evidence (repeatable, transferable, etc) for their existence, and these types of things are clearly not what bill was thinking of when he grudgingly wrote 'power greater than yourselves' - he was referring to the judeochristian god specifically.

Note: I suggest everyone interested in what AA doctrine really says about 'higher powers' read Chapter 4, as in it Bill quite clearly states that using the group as a higher power is only meant as a small start - a first step - to developing a relationship with god, and is not meant as a final choice.



Unlike yourself, I do respond honestly to questions - and have all throughout this thread.


No, I do not - the data I've posted and referred to makes clear that AA is religious (specifically designed for cult conversion to a bastardized version of xianity) - if something works, and it isn't religious (such as a SOS or SMART self help group) - or using the group as a higher power permanently - then it's fine and dandy, but it's not AA.
Thanks for that.

I find it interesting that you have done AA but not done AA at the same time.
As I have said earlier, you are living proof of the "whatever works, use" philosophy that is at the root of the fellowship (i.e. the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking).

By the way, I agree that Bill refers to the God you are talking about - but he was never uintended to be the first and last word on this. He was urging others to do what he did, as are all older members when they say "this worked for me, give it a go", or whatever. Like Bill, they do not have the last word on how you treat your recovery, only you do.

Bill has never said he was a higher power, or god spoke through him or similar. Why we keep rolling out his personal quotations is a little beyond me frankly. Sure, he wrote the book in terms of what he knew. Things have changed, AA has evolved, his story hasn't.

Here, ones 'spirituality' is a completely individual thing and can be construed in any way one likes. If it is not like that there - well... clearly I can't comment except to say that the traditions and steps make certain things clear to me; it is a pity if they have been bastardised in certain parts of the states and elsewhere.

Alcoholics come together in an effort to get sober (remember primary purpose?), relifgion is certainly not the primary purpose, spirituality is a tool to be used if one wishes (again, you are a fantastic example of how this can work in a practical sense).

Cheers.
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Old 29th July 2010, 09:11 PM   #311
tsig
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Thanks for that.

I find it interesting that you have done AA but not done AA at the same time.
As I have said earlier, you are living proof of the "whatever works, use" philosophy that is at the root of the fellowship (i.e. the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking).

By the way, I agree that Bill refers to the God you are talking about - but he was never uintended to be the first and last word on this. He was urging others to do what he did, as are all older members when they say "this worked for me, give it a go", or whatever. Like Bill, they do not have the last word on how you treat your recovery, only you do.

Bill has never said he was a higher power, or god spoke through him or similar. Why we keep rolling out his personal quotations is a little beyond me frankly. Sure, he wrote the book in terms of what he knew. Things have changed, AA has evolved, his story hasn't.

Here, ones 'spirituality' is a completely individual thing and can be construed in any way one likes. If it is not like that there - well... clearly I can't comment except to say that the traditions and steps make certain things clear to me; it is a pity if they have been bastardised in certain parts of the states and elsewhere.

Alcoholics come together in an effort to get sober (remember primary purpose?), relifgion is certainly not the primary purpose, spirituality is a tool to be used if one wishes (again, you are a fantastic example of how this can work in a practical sense).

Cheers.
Interesting. after calling me out twice and calling me a liar once you now ignore post #302.

Last edited by tsig; 29th July 2010 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 29th July 2010, 09:14 PM   #312
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
ETA:Why didn't you answer my post 302?
Apologies, I missed it in the rest.

Um I actually did respond via post 244 during the exchange with both you and Ponderingturtle. Perhaps you simply missed it.

I would suggest you revisit what I said and provide me with the evidence I asked for then we can continue that part of the discussion.

But whilst we are on that part of the topic, I will reiterate/clarify:
- AA does not have the market cornered on recovery.
- Other things do work (please get me the data you guys say is there)
- Sometimes (not always) it is AA or death. Did you know that something like 5% of premature deaths in the western world are related to alcohol/ alcoholism?
- If one is an alcoholic, and continues to practice their addiction, their life will get worse in four areas - these are called the four Ls: Livelihood, Lovelife, Liver (health) and Legal. Death falls under the health category.

You guys talk like alcoholism is not problem and that AA does not help anyone. That claim is patently wrong as evidenced by the two million people (I think is the number quoted earlier) that attend AA.

It has also been suggested that 5% of people just stop. Great, that's 5%. Add AAs 9% to that and we have 14% of alcoholics achieving some semblance of sobriety.

That leaves 86% getting what? Better - hardly. What happens to them? How many die? How many end up institutionalised? Get some data on that is you want to throw these figures around.

AA provides part of the solution, they are not the whole of the solution. Never were, never claimed to be, never want(ed) to be.
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Old 29th July 2010, 10:09 PM   #313
tsig
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Apologies, I missed it in the rest.

Um I actually did respond via post 244 during the exchange with both you and Ponderingturtle. Perhaps you simply missed it.

I would suggest you revisit what I said and provide me with the evidence I asked for then we can continue that part of the discussion.

But whilst we are on that part of the topic, I will reiterate/clarify:
- AA does not have the market cornered on recovery.
- Other things do work (please get me the data you guys say is there)
- Sometimes (not always) it is AA or death. Did you know that something like 5% of premature deaths in the western world are related to alcohol/ alcoholism?
- If one is an alcoholic, and continues to practice their addiction, their life will get worse in four areas - these are called the four Ls: Livelihood, Lovelife, Liver (health) and Legal. Death falls under the health category.

You guys talk like alcoholism is not problem and that AA does not help anyone. That claim is patently wrong as evidenced by the two million people (I think is the number quoted earlier) that attend AA.

It has also been suggested that 5% of people just stop. Great, that's 5%. Add AAs 9% to that and we have 14% of alcoholics achieving some semblance of sobriety.

That leaves 86% getting what? Better - hardly. What happens to them? How many die? How many end up institutionalised? Get some data on that is you want to throw these figures around.

AA provides part of the solution, they are not the whole of the solution. Never were, never claimed to be, never want(ed) to be.
Post 244:

26th July 2010, 07:43 AM #244
A.A.Alfie



Perhaps I could have been clearer. That said, your lack of understanding is not really my problem.

But do you have these other stats? I am genuinely interested in what methods of recovery achieve success.


I see nothing here that answers anything i have posted.

Your stories are getting tangled. first you call me out twice about a post that you say I never made then you say you answered it in a post that has nothing to do with it.


How can you claim to have answered a post yet call me a liar for never having posted it?

Last edited by tsig; 29th July 2010 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 29th July 2010, 10:22 PM   #314
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Can you get me some of the data or not?
You said I stopped responding, I hadn't - certainly we mixed up and I retract me calling you a liar and I apologise for same and my part in that.

That said, I did respond or felt I had.

So.. do you have some other information, I am genuinely interested in the data on other programs that achieve some success.
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Old 29th July 2010, 10:35 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
True, but the CDC and the Medical Community's lumping together of all forms of alcoholism into a disease model is dubious, and politically (rather than medically) based on the Sin/Disease model that has become the de facto model for addiction. It has become more a PC article of Faith, thanks to AA's cultural propaganda. This is probably one of the key reasons why I dislike AA so much.



GB
Do you have some evidences of this "cultural propaganda"? We don't advertise and we are suppose to "maintain our anonymity at the level of press radio and film"? If an AA'er is producing "propaganda" that is something we can discuss. That would go against the tenets of AA.
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Old 29th July 2010, 11:03 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Or how it is so much more effective than anything else but with no documentation to back it up. You got to take it on faith that it works better than the alternatives.
I'm not saying it is anymore effective than any other treatment. For a very long time AA was the only hope for hopeless alcoholics. Hopefully with the leaps and bounds being made in neuroscience, maybe we are not to far away from a cure or an "antidote" to addiction and alcoholism. Then this debate would be rendered moot. But until that day comes, AA is the only treatment that is available for free, and for those that can't afford hospitalization, AA is still their best hope.
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Old 29th July 2010, 11:30 PM   #317
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by godofpie View Post
I'm not saying it is anymore effective than any other treatment.
It's interesting that others continue to try and put words in our mouths on this point (and GBs previously about cultural propaganda, running the debate and the like).
Then they balk, hedge and move goal posts when asked to provide examples.
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Old 30th July 2010, 01:04 AM   #318
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Must Tinyal and I really repost AA literature? Your propaganda speaks for itself. It's been around for 80 years and is spread ubiquitously in nearly every civic and community center in the US. AA actively seeks to promote itself, and I have also posted its website menu that is expressly for outreach to the Judicial, Health, and Business communities. Should I repost that?

AA Spokespeople and documentaries are on Radio and TV, and in schoolrooms, and Sunday Schools on a regular basis. Not to mention the numerous "special episodes" of fictional TV programmes that have featured story-lines promoting AA and its offshoots since the 1980s. Not to mention the politicians, presidents, surgeon generals and the like lauding AA and the 12 Steps. Not to mention again the fact that AA and NA meetings are the first line of defense in any court ordered proceedings for those who run afoul of the law while allegedly under the influence.

The 12 Steps are almost as well known as the 10 Commandments here in the States. This all strikes me as active proselytizing by any standard. And AA's principles that once an addict you are diseased for life and that moderation is never again possible for the "addict" are now thoroughly ingrained into the political propaganda of nearly all Anti-Legalization groups, whose literature invariably cites AA's literature as the definitive word on the subject.

Politicians, Legal Professionals, Medical Practitioners, Journalists, and others, who question the validity of the programmed assumptions based on AA Lit, do so at the potential risk to their careers.

Deny and hurl invective all you like, it will not change the evidence that the US is awash in your propaganda.

As I do not live in Australia, I do not know the extent of AA's propagandist reach there and cannot speak to it. I know just enough about its reach in Europe to know that it is nowhere near as ubiquitous as in the US, though there are some possible indications that AA's propaganda has made some headway in the UK. Maybe someone on the forum currently living there could speak to that.

As to effectiveness, considering that it is politically nearly impossible to get funding to explore other avenues in the US (because of the PC ubiquitousness of AA's Sin/Disease Model of "addiction"), it is no wonder that little progress has been made in other areas.

However, preliminary studies in Europe of Ibogaine treatment for "addiction" have demonstrated up to 75% success rates in initially breaking the "addiction" pattern. No doubt therapy, treatment for root problems, and making other life changes are likely necessary to make it stick.

And as I have stated from the beginning: to the extent that AA provides a support system, it can have beneficial effects for those few who respond well to a religiously based support system.

Just because I profoundly dislike the fact that AA's religious propaganda has given it an undeserved top quasi-legal-medical status, doesn't mean that I can't applaud those (few) who have made it work for them.

My biggest complaints are that it is given much more status and power over peoples lives than it deserves, and that its principles are the goalposts in any discussion of other means of combating "addiction", and that it, generally speaking, takes a one-size fits all approach.

GB
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Old 30th July 2010, 05:18 AM   #319
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AA Alfie, before reading any posts, sorry about all the CAPS yesterday!
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Old 30th July 2010, 05:31 AM   #320
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