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18th July 2010, 05:55 AM | #1 |
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Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs
I'm dealing with a spouse who has alcohol issues. His first therapist (social worker) told him to go to a Beginner's AA meeting, and to "Keep An Open Mind."
He went, and was instantly uncomfortable. Not only was Jesus Christ mentioned constantly as the Savior, but the meeting ended with, "The Lord's Prayer." He related this to the social worker, who berated him for not going to a Beginner's meeting. (Which it WAS listed as.) And then told him that, "The Lord's Prayer" is not really religious, anyway. My husband now sees a psychologist who specializes in cognitive behavior and doesn't push AA. Now I'm furious that MY new therapist is telling me that AA would be a good resource for my husband. "It's not religious, it's spiritual," and "Your higher power can be anything at all, the ocean, even yourself." I'm not confrontational, and I tried to remember some of the advice I've received here about debating. I told her that I had done research on AA, that it had a 5% success rate, and that the Supreme Court had ruled that it was religious. Then I started to get emotional and told her that it was all based on a Buchmanite group designed to get people to accept Christ as the Savior, and that the Higher Power stuff was nonsense, since sure, it starts out as, "the ocean," but ends up referring to God. And the "higher power" definitely CANNOT be yourself, since it has to be some outside force. As Henry Ford said of his cars, you can have any color you want so long as it's black. Well, you can have any Higher Power you want so long as it's God. As former Catholics, my husband and I tend to get a bit touchy when religion is sold to us. It is very difficult to get away from, "Magical Thinking," and I've been working so hard to restructure my thoughts, to think more critically, to learn about logic, and to question things. And it took a lot for me to "talk back" to my therapist about this, and I still feel guilty, like I should just accept it as good advice. Such is the mark that being a good little Catholic girl leaves on person. I feel so angry that the majority of people don't question AA at all. |
18th July 2010, 06:12 AM | #2 |
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Youd be right. Its a religious group for the reasons you mentioned. How could it not be?
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18th July 2010, 06:53 AM | #3 |
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AA is religious.
'Spiritual' is a woo word. It often is used as cover for religion. Even when there is no apparent religious aspects to 'spiritual' thought, there are always woo aspects. I had a therapist that I really liked, but he asserted that I was spiritual even though I wasn't religious. I assured him that I was not. |
18th July 2010, 06:57 AM | #4 |
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"Woo" is a bit of a silly word, too.
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18th July 2010, 07:07 AM | #5 |
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18th July 2010, 07:07 AM | #6 |
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But not as silly as 'wee-wee'.
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18th July 2010, 07:12 AM | #7 |
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To those who say it's not religious (and specifically Christian), read Chapter 4 of The Big Book, and explain.
I love how it says that it's God of your understanding, but it's also God (not "a" god) with a capital G and references to Him use the capital H. |
18th July 2010, 07:12 AM | #8 |
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Ummm... The answer to the title is quite simple:
There is a notion of "freedom of religion" so therefore, nobody can force you to go to church. But if you don't call it "religion" then it's perfectly okay. It's the same reason why they try to force "creationisim" as science when it's really religion. In other words, it's another dishonest BS tactics used to brainwash the masses to follow the few individual who wish to control them. |
18th July 2010, 07:25 AM | #9 |
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Your new therapist is an incompetent idiot. Get a new therapist. Problem solved.
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18th July 2010, 07:38 AM | #10 |
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While the original 12 step program was a religious program, there are individual AA groups who don't include religion in their version. Find another group.
AA is a useful tool for many people trying to maintain sobriety. Not everyone needs this kind of support. People are successful in their abstinence via different means and it isn't clear why one method works for some and another method works best for someone else. The success of AA groups depend on the quality of the group, the quality of the leadership and whether the particular group one attends 'fits' with that individual. I used to work in the substance abuse field and I've seen many different AA groups in action. Some are not very supportive and people show up high, many attending because they had a DUI and the court has ordered them to go. Other groups are very religiously oriented. But there are also many AA groups which just leave out the 'turn your life over to a higher power' step. They mouth the words in the "give me the power" mantra but it isn't really part of the program. They support each other effectively, religion is just left up to the individual. Someone really should revise the 12 steps and develop a non-religious program, but for some mysterious reason it hasn't happened yet. |
18th July 2010, 07:45 AM | #11 |
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18th July 2010, 08:02 AM | #12 |
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And this is a big reason AA continues to have such high visibility, despite it's dismal failure rate. Judges often will sentence people to this program because there is no alternative available to them than just sending the individual to jail for 30 days. And even when there is an alternative, the courts are unaware of it.
Someone mentioned that AA has only about a 5% success rate. I wonder how that compares to people who just quit on their own? As an aside though, I have a friend who went to AA and he's about as religious as a door knob. He put up with the "higher power" thing vaguely and it did work. But he himself admitted that it was a good group. He's still clean after a lot of years. He was one of the lucky few for whom it worked. |
18th July 2010, 08:06 AM | #13 |
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For those interested in a non-religious alternative to AA -- Check out --
Rational Recovery, and Jack Trimpy. Also Secular Organizations for Sobriety. SMART Recovery (which stands for Self-Managment and Recovery Training) is another option. |
18th July 2010, 08:12 AM | #14 |
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All alcoholism treatment programs have a high failure rate, but most are equally effective when compared to each other. That includes comparing treatment to 'no treatment', but in this case, 'no treatment' quitting only works for a select group of people, just like AA only works for a select group of people. And we have no tests that predict which treatment is best for which individuals. People truly interested in recovery typically find the program that best fits their needs after trial and error.
AA groups are so varied, one also has a hard time in research determining whether the program or the group variables are reflected in the outcomes. Judges sentence people to attend AA because there are so few alternatives. Inpatient treatment is expensive, and not easy to accomplish if one has a job. That further restricts judges' choices. |
18th July 2010, 08:25 AM | #15 |
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I know someone reasonably high up in AA and he suggested their success rate is closer to 13% I would suggest no other programs are doing significantly better. My AA contact said it often takes at least 3 tries before a person does manage to get and stay sober
I'm also a little suprised at the outrage over the religious side of the program, it was started by a religious group back in the 30's. On Wiki they show you the original 12 steps and what they use today. Only two of the steps have any real religious relevence anymore. |
18th July 2010, 08:28 AM | #16 |
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18th July 2010, 08:50 AM | #17 |
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18th July 2010, 04:07 PM | #18 |
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I've often had people tell me that they were "spiritual, but not religious" -- but beyond defining "spiritual" as "not religious", I've never gotten a coherent answer to the question, "what is spirituality?"
You seem to have this all rather carefully worked out. Would you care to share your definitions for these terms?
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18th July 2010, 06:06 PM | #19 |
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There are secular sobriety programs that your spouse can be referred to, I believe.
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18th July 2010, 10:27 PM | #20 |
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The higher power thing is an important emotional 'hook'. There are others, of course. I was quite moved to hear stories from other people who had 'been there'.
The problem with any particular hook is that it doesn't catch every species of fish. So far, there is no medical treatment for alcoholism that does it either. None of this is surprising -- it's what happens when you use a cookie cutter formulation. Best is if he can find a 'home group' or one that doesn't hammer Jesus. I've seen shopping happen a lot. People shop for AA groups where they feel comfortable and connect with the other people there. For me, it was hugely about age. Some groups were entirely old farts and others were mostly youngsters. I can put up with more old-fartery than young know-it-all-ness. It does help to have a selection which means a major/minor city or a long drive. Just let him know there is enough variation in groups that he is likely to find somewhere he can get some benefits. That said, I haven't been in about eight years, so even the best of them gets old. Oh, and I'm a hardcore atheist, if that matters. |
19th July 2010, 02:58 AM | #21 |
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19th July 2010, 03:00 AM | #22 |
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19th July 2010, 03:36 AM | #23 |
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19th July 2010, 04:25 AM | #24 |
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The body of AA is itself religious as Bill W. founded it, however many people who attend AA and other offshoots are not.
So many groups have different levels of religion, some are yuck (the lard's prayer, that would make me run), some are not religious at all. Many groups tolerate members who do not chose god as their higher power but something like 'sobriety', in my experience groups vary a whole lot. And some are double thumpers where they tout the bible and the big book and others re not. I myself really like Jack Trimpey's Rational RecoveryWP. because it really gets down to the core of quitting, the Big Choice to quit. When I did 'counseling' I used a relapse prevention model but also had a strong 'reality therapy' bias. Rational Recovery ETA: Even in AA which has a tradition that hroups are unique to some extent has the DFD groups, where members shy away from the twelve steps and focus on DFD, which is Don’t *********** Drink |
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19th July 2010, 04:33 AM | #25 |
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I suspect a lot of the reason people insist AA isn't religious is so courts can continue to insist people attend it. Wouldn't it being religious interfere with the whole seperation of church and state thing in the US?
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19th July 2010, 04:38 AM | #26 |
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19th July 2010, 04:59 AM | #27 |
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19th July 2010, 06:59 AM | #28 |
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However as others have pointed out in this thread, in some places it is the only game in town. It's free, organised so that you dont have to mis work (Assuming you have a job)
And do we have any evidence that if you are before the courts, and said your honour I believe the BB program run by XXX would be a greater benefit, the judge ignores this and says - "Off to AA you go" |
19th July 2010, 07:06 AM | #29 |
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And what evidence is there that quitting on your own has the same success rate. Intuitively, no one would quit on their own, because they would stop before they reached this level of need in the first place
Humans are a social animal and we process much of our action through interaction with peers. Even organisations like weight watches realise this. The weekly, daily, whatever schedule meeting is as much a pep rally as part of the cure. |
19th July 2010, 07:44 AM | #30 |
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Well, that's about as coherent as anything I've heard so far, but I still feel... unenlightened. Though I've most often asked the question of those who were claiming to be "spiritual", I guess it could work the other way around as well: How do you know you're not "spiritual" if you can't articulate what that means?
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19th July 2010, 08:10 AM | #31 |
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19th July 2010, 08:12 AM | #32 |
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Would it interest you to know that not all AA members or AA groups are entirely thrilled about the practice either? A popular cliche is that "AA is not for people that need it; it's for people that want it". So-called "court-carders" are usually at least tolerated, but not all meeting secretaries have an equal capacity for tolerance. I have attended meetings where the announcement was made at the outset: "If you're just here to get a court card signed, bring it on up and I'll sign it right now and then you can get the hell out". (Court-carders usually just sit quietly and scowl, but that secretary may have encountered one with enough resentment and suspicion to be disruptive). Some secretaries will simply state flatly: "I don't sign court cards" and leave it up to the individual to decide for themselves whether it's worth staying.
AA's third tradition states: "we may refuse none who wish to recover". Strictly interpreted, that can be used (and, at "closed" meetings, IS used) to exclude those who have gotten "the nudge from the judge", as well as anyone who does not have "a desire to stop drinking". The "preamble" recited at the beginning of every meeting states: "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution". (With respect to the OP, I would argue that the "sect, denomination" part was included specifically to address the question of AA being a "religion", but I guess the definition of that could be almost as subjective -- and, apparently, as difficult to articulate -- as is "spirituality"). "Alcoholics Anonymous is not part of the judicial system. We do not work with the courts or the police department. We do not ask the courts to send people to us. When people do show up with court papers, we are not responsible for making sure the people are sober." "If a judge, court, school, or employer has sent you to AA meetings, it is because they believe there is evidence that you have a drinking problem. We had nothing to do with their decision -- in fact, AA has no opinion as to whether you have a drinking problem or not." "While most groups will sign court papers, this is for each individual group to decide. Since AA is not allied with the court system, AA is not required to do the court's work." "If a chairperson or other group member agrees to sign your papers, they will probably sign with their first name or initials. We are personally anonymous. We are not court employees." http://www.aasrq.org/courtordered.htm |
19th July 2010, 08:35 AM | #33 |
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As someone who's "not spiritual," I'd say it means believing that there are forces, entities, etc. which exist apart from our brains and which may have some effect on us but which can't be investigated or disproven by the scientific method.
I think that everyone has similar strong sensations--a sense of morality, meaning, connection, etc. It's just that spiritual people attribute it to something outside themselves and practical people like me realize it's part of the biological brain function we're given. It really does fit with the "higher power" idea. Spiritual people believe there's a power outside of us that can control us and non-spiritual people don't except in the most mundane literal terms (a mob has higher power than an unarmed individual, and so forth). |
19th July 2010, 01:53 PM | #34 |
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Well an example that I as a materialist can accept as a pseudo-higher power would be the psychological phenomenon of "social proof." It has been shown to influence the behavior of others, acting as a kind of outside entity. Certainly not a personal God or anything, but it is something AA groups can do.
You can think of it as entirely a context-based influence on behavior. Someone who attends meetings and focuses on sobriety may have a better change than someone who does not. |
19th July 2010, 01:59 PM | #35 |
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And what difference (if any) do you see between that and religious beliefs?
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19th July 2010, 05:44 PM | #36 |
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19th July 2010, 05:58 PM | #37 |
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AA has some other issues for me, the biggest one is that many members foster and support a culture of 'AA only', people who would benefit from a variety of methods are encouraged to stick with AA, no matter what.
If you are three years sober then perhaps there are other ways to advance your life, without AA as the foucs. I truly believe that 'Once and addict always an addict' but that can be just a warning to never use (there is that Big Choice again). AA's is neutral on other methods, its members however can be a tad bit fanatical. They tell people who are depressed to avoid medication and that if they only focus on sobriety then their lives will be fine. AA can also be a little snotty and clique-ish at times where longer term members will say really snotty and rude things about the stories of newer members , despite the no cross-talk rule. When someone goes on about their gratitude and how wonderful their life is and just how marvelous their life is now, and they don't talk about it except when other people share their suffering, it is really gross. Then there are some groups that don't want new members because it would harsh their little social club. I personally really like the DFD or DFU groups, forget the steps, that is just something to keep you occupied. Stay sober, get better, get a life. The last problem I have with AA is 'bottoming out' it is better to get sober before you bottom out and many people can learn to walk on the bottom. |
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19th July 2010, 08:13 PM | #38 |
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None at all. I think those who claim to be spiritual but not religious reject the specific nature of most religions but they just substitute their own personal ideas or pick and choose from a variety of religions.
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Where being spiritual comes in would be if someone said, I can take a 10% risk a hundred times but because of intangible factor X (my guardian angel, my lucky charm, my in-tuneness with the universe, etc.), the bad thing won't happen to me, or if it does, it was meant to be... |
19th July 2010, 11:37 PM | #39 |
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To the OP (et al).
I can only comment on AA meetings I have attended here and abroad and cannot therefor speak of the groups in (say) the US. I have been clean and sober now for 10 years and work as a forensic counsellor in AOD as well as other areas. AA forms the basis for the maintenance of my sobriey and I feel I can discuss this with some level of authority. So much for credentials. As for the individual groups using (say) the lords prayer, doing 12 step work as some prerequisite etc etc. All that I can say is that this is a democratic decision taken by each individual group as to how they would like to run their group. There is no central office dictating how the groups should be run - it is their decision alone, voted on by the members of that group. Someone else outlined that if one group doesn't suit you, try another, or another. There are plenty around and if one makes a small effort, they will find somewhere they are happy. If not, go back out and drink - the people in AA don't mind - that too is the choice of the individual just the same as their choice of/whether to have a higher power. AA does not purport to be religious however to the uninitiated there would appear to be some religious connotations. There are many members who retain their agnosticism, atheism or whatever throughout their sobriety. There are many too whose 'spirituality' evolves over time. There is no "one God"; it is a God of ones own understanding in whatever form that might take. Religion implies some sort of dogma/tenet or similar; a uniform approach to the religion. Spirituality refers to a 'purpose' or 'reason' an individual has: some might refer to this as ones psychosocial supports for example. Clearly this is not religion and is what is refered to as an individuals spirituality. Cheers |
19th July 2010, 11:42 PM | #40 |
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They've tried to make it more open, but insist that you have a "higher power"
as an atheist, it took me a long time to come with my "higher power"...nature. that said, i still can't get anything out of AA, because A.) it really is mostly religious, and B.) every time i go, i just want to drink even more. |
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