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Old 24th September 2012, 09:08 AM   #1
catsmate
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Defecting Catholics effect church revenue in Germany

Apparently the increasing rate of defection form the RCC in Germany, and he subsequent loss of tax revenue, has triggered a decision to finally penalise the defectors.
The bishops have issued a decree declaring such defection "a serious lapse" and listed a wide range of church activities from which they must be excluded; marrying in church, acting as godparents, working in the church or church controlled schools and hospitals, being active in church-sponsored associations such as charity groups or choirs.

Personally I find this interesting as, despite the Vatican sanction to the decree, it appears to violate Canon law regarding the necessity of submitting of a Declaration of Defection to the church to terminate one's membership, instead relying on secular authorities to handle the process.
Otherwise excellent news that I suspect will accelerate the process.

FYI, and I'm sure some of our resident Germans can provide more information, Germans officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% of their annual tax bill. These brought in
bout €5bn for the RCC and €4.3bn for the combined Protestant churches in 2010.

Links.
Reuters.
RTE.
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Old 24th September 2012, 09:11 AM   #2
Professor Yaffle
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AFFECT

That is all
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Old 24th September 2012, 09:22 AM   #3
NewtonTrino
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The get the gov to collect their pound of flesh eh?

I wonder what they do with the money...
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Old 24th September 2012, 09:24 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
The get the gov to collect their pound of flesh eh?

I wonder what they do with the money...
A lot less than popular opinion would have you believe ...
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Old 24th September 2012, 09:42 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Personally I find this interesting as, despite the Vatican sanction to the decree, it appears to violate Canon law regarding the necessity of submitting of a Declaration of Defection to the church to terminate one's membership, instead relying on secular authorities to handle the process.
Good point. Essentially, the church tax is a form of indulgence. I remember that some time ago, a German monk had something to say about that.

Not quite original, I read the remark in this German Spiegel article
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Old 24th September 2012, 09:56 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
The get the gov to collect their pound of flesh eh?

I wonder what they do with the money...
Make porn?
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Old 24th September 2012, 10:14 AM   #7
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I think they should be offering refunds to those dissatisfied with the product.
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Old 24th September 2012, 10:39 AM   #8
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Seems strange that modern western nations would have the government collecting on behalf of the Church. Makes sense historically, but I thought western Europe was supposed to be secular compared to the US.
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Old 24th September 2012, 11:03 AM   #9
ThatSoundAgain
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
Seems strange that modern western nations would have the government collecting on behalf of the Church. Makes sense historically, but I thought western Europe was supposed to be secular compared to the US.
Yeah, it's weird.

In Europe, some countries have state churches, mostly those that have kept with monarchy (famously, the UK is one such country). Germany doesn't, but still optionally collects church tax from members.

Yet the religious climate is much more relaxed than what we see in the US. In my native Denmark, there's some 60% of the population belonging to the Lutheran state church, yet talk of God is mostly met with embarassed silence, and very few attend church regularly.

Conclusion: Institute a theistic monarchy if you want to defang religion
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Old 24th September 2012, 11:14 AM   #10
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Hmm. 15 years back when I was German Lutheran on paper, there was no such thing as a church tax - we had something called "Kirchengeld" which was a voluntary contribution that was processed together with income tax, but you were completely free to ignore it. Catholics may be less keen to rely on the fickle mercies of their flock.

Can't say that withholding church services and associations from those who don't pay up seems unjustified, although I'd like to see the church choir that turns away a young tenor because he's not paid his parish shekels. There's diocese law, and then there's raw necessity
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Old 24th September 2012, 11:26 AM   #11
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Floyt, feel free to correct me. From what I recall - and just read somewhere - church tax collection by the government is optional, i.e. each established religion have the option of collecting themselves if they want.

But what do I know of German matters, silly Dane with the state church.

What do you think about the religious climate where you are? Admitting to believing in a god, or even raising the subject, is a minor social faux pas in my circles.
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Old 24th September 2012, 11:53 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Floyt View Post
Hmm. 15 years back when I was German Lutheran on paper, there was no such thing as a church tax - we had something called "Kirchengeld" which was a voluntary contribution that was processed together with income tax, but you were completely free to ignore it. Catholics may be less keen to rely on the fickle mercies of their flock.

Can't say that withholding church services and associations from those who don't pay up seems unjustified, although I'd like to see the church choir that turns away a young tenor because he's not paid his parish shekels. There's diocese law, and then there's raw necessity
Sorry, but for about two years I paid church tax as a protestant in North-Rhine Westphalia before I decided to leave the church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany

A little known fact is that bishops' and cardinals' salaries are paid from general taxes and not the church tax alone. So part of my tax money is going to religion even though I'm an atheist.

Another fact that the churches would like to conceal is that ony about 10 percent of the church tax goes to charity. Most of it is used up for administration and priests' salaries.

http://www.kirchensteuer.de/node/71

Sorry, in German only.
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Old 24th September 2012, 12:00 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
Seems strange that modern western nations would have the government collecting on behalf of the Church. Makes sense historically, but I thought western Europe was supposed to be secular compared to the US.
The state is being paid for it. Somewhere between 2 and 4.5 % of the raised church tax. I have only German links for it. http://www.kirchensteuer.de/node/71
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Old 24th September 2012, 04:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
A lot less than popular opinion would have you believe ...
This article in Der Spiegel (in German) does a nice hatchet job, as you may expect from Der Spiegel.

Paying Catholic kindergartens? Only if the municipality pays two thirds of the cost.
Catholic charities? The RCC only pays about 20% for them, the state pays the rest.
Local churches are being closed, and there's "no money" for buses to transport the elderly to the next church on Sundays.
The salaries of bishops are paid from state funds as well, not from the church tax.
Et cetera.

It is estimated that, on top of the €10b church tax that is collected, the two German churches receive about €17b additionally from the several levels of government.

So where does it go to? To lush episcopal palaces. To vicars and bishops who don't know the difference between mine and thine. And it is stacked in secret funds that only the bishop and his closest confidants know about.
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Old 24th September 2012, 05:40 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Apparently the increasing rate of defection form the RCC in Germany, and he subsequent loss of tax revenue, has triggered a decision to finally penalise the defectors.
The bishops have issued a decree declaring such defection "a serious lapse" and listed a wide range of church activities from which they must be excluded; marrying in church, acting as godparents, working in the church or church controlled schools and hospitals, being active in church-sponsored associations such as charity groups or choirs.

Personally I find this interesting as, despite the Vatican sanction to the decree, it appears to violate Canon law regarding the necessity of submitting of a Declaration of Defection to the church to terminate one's membership, instead relying on secular authorities to handle the process.
Otherwise excellent news that I suspect will accelerate the process.

FYI, and I'm sure some of our resident Germans can provide more information, Germans officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% of their annual tax bill. These brought in
bout €5bn for the RCC and €4.3bn for the combined Protestant churches in 2010.

Links.
Reuters.
RTE.
Coooool!!!!! I always appreciate it when a religion shoots off it's own feet.
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Old 24th September 2012, 05:45 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Good point. Essentially, the church tax is a form of indulgence. I remember that some time ago, a German monk had something to say about that.

Not quite original, I read the remark in this German Spiegel article
I believe that would be Martin Luther who nailed feces to a church door to raise a stink about church practices/failings. Stank so much, people protested the stinky stuff - thus founding the Protestant movement which ultimately created even a greater stink in a lot of places.

Much a-doo-doo about nothing if you ask me (and you didn't).........
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