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Old 19th September 2012, 09:26 PM   #1
Kahalachan
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Are Only The Religious Convicted In Their Beliefs?

As an atheist, it'd be easy to get me to decry my belief. If I see paying lip service to be advantageous in any way I'd just mouth "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and blah blah...." If my life was at stake for sure. But I don't know......I'd probably do this for $20. It'd be quite easy to get me to just say "Yeah sure I believe in a god"

Are there any atheists out there who would vocally proclaim their atheism even under the threat of death?

I don't see why. I mean it's not like you believe there's a god to reward you for doing this or any heaven you'd go to.

Maybe this is just my outlook. Are there atheists who would die for their belief is what I'm asking? We know full well there's religious people who would die for their beliefs.

And don't even bother to use semantics about how atheists lack belief and don't believe in anything or whatever. You all know what I mean.
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Old 19th September 2012, 10:26 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
Are Only The Religious Convicted In Their Beliefs?
"The Religous: Convicted by a jury of their fears"

Sorry. Had to go for the obvious joke.

Personally, I'd just about lie about anything depending on circumstances. Regarding my lack of theism, I'd have no problem proclaiming my belief in God if that's what it took to survive.
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Old 20th September 2012, 01:44 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
Are there any atheists out there who would vocally proclaim their atheism even under the threat of death?

I don't see why. I mean it's not like you believe there's a god to reward you for doing this or any heaven you'd go to.
Sure, I can imagine some circumstances where I would. They're probably about as extreme as what it would take for a theist to do the same in real life (not in their imagination).

For example, say there's an oppressive religious regime that has every non-believer cowering in fear, but there's a chance the cowed people might uprise and overthrow those in power, if they had the guts. Let's say I'm going to be made an example of, by being publicly executed for heresy live on TV, but I can save my life if I renounce my nonbelief at the last minute and claim to believe.

If I thought that standing up for my principles and denying my belief would inspire others to do the same, and maybe help to change an entire nation for the better, and I knew that whatever I said would be broadcast live so it would definitely get out there raw and unedited, absolutely. No question. I'd vocally proclaim my atheism and accept my execution.

The odds of actually finding myself in such a situation? Almost zero.
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Old 20th September 2012, 02:51 AM   #4
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Actually, for a start I'd say that the number of actual religious martyrs who actually proclaimed their faith until the end, is close to nil. What there actually was, is more of a mix of:

- made up pious martyrdom stories. We can be sure a lot are made up because for example there are several mutually incompatible versions for each apostle. They can't all be true.

- people who really had no such choice. E.g., even the early church made up BS most often doesn't include a "convert or else" element. Some guy converts some local official's wife ("converted", eh? that's what kids were calling it those days?), the governor nails him to a stick or gets even more creative. E.g., others later just got tortured by the Inquisition until they confessed they were defiantly sticking to Judaism or Islam just to spite Christ, or that they were secretly protestant, even if they really had no clue what Judaism or protestantism were about.

You have to also understand that persecuting heretics was from the start a major source of income for the church and the state. And it was as early as the Byzantines, whose laws seem more concerned with how to seize the heretics' wealth and plunder the pagan temples, than to even define what heresies or modes of thought they're suppressing. And then later the inquisition did the same. The one most common trait of conversos tried and executed in Spain for example, was becoming wealthy.

So basically it had nothing to do with being so devout that they were defying the inquisition and stuck to their religion to the end, but just with being a wealthy Moor or some (otherwise devout catholic) guy with a Jewish grandparent that got to be a wealthy and successful trader. They just got tortured until they confessed whatever sealed their doom.

- and yes, there was a very small number of deluded schizophrenics who actually did try to get killed for their faith, thinking it was a fast track to heavens. Though again, the actually supportable numbers are very very very small.
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Old 20th September 2012, 08:50 AM   #5
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I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
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Old 21st September 2012, 10:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
As an atheist, it'd be easy to get me to decry my belief. If I see paying lip service to be advantageous in any way I'd just mouth "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and blah blah...." If my life was at stake for sure. But I don't know......I'd probably do this for $20. It'd be quite easy to get me to just say "Yeah sure I believe in a god"

Are there any atheists out there who would vocally proclaim their atheism even under the threat of death?

I don't see why. I mean it's not like you believe there's a god to reward you for doing this or any heaven you'd go to.

Maybe this is just my outlook. Are there atheists who would die for their belief is what I'm asking? We know full well there's religious people who would die for their beliefs.

And don't even bother to use semantics about how atheists lack belief and don't believe in anything or whatever. You all know what I mean.
For me it's a matter of personal dignity (and perhaps foolish pride). Although I refrain from proclaiming my lack of religion, I will not ever claim to follow a religion which I do not. Give me religious liberty or give me death, as it were. I won't press the issue as long as the ramifications are purely social, however, since there's no reason to alienate myself from the society I live in (as in Kansas) if I can avoid it simply by not discussing religion.

Last edited by Manopolus; 21st September 2012 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 01:51 AM   #7
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First off, I suggest you watch the movie "the ledge"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1535970/

Second, there are any number of reasons why one would do that.
You might as well ask why did some people prefered to die rather than stay in the closet pretending to be straight.
Because living a life based on lies and depriving yoruself of the basic things that makes life worth living isn't that great of a life at all...

Third, there is also the after effect.
Same reason why I would be willing to die to help save another person or die instead of hurting another person I would rather die as a proudly declared atheist soley as my false confession would not to frighten other people to "come out" it is possible my death would help others realize how horrible their religion is.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 03:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
As an atheist, it'd be easy to get me to decry my belief. If I see paying lip service to be advantageous in any way I'd just mouth "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and blah blah...." If my life was at stake for sure. But I don't know......I'd probably do this for $20. It'd be quite easy to get me to just say "Yeah sure I believe in a god"

Are there any atheists out there who would vocally proclaim their atheism even under the threat of death?

I don't see why. I mean it's not like you believe there's a god to reward you for doing this or any heaven you'd go to.

Maybe this is just my outlook. Are there atheists who would die for their belief is what I'm asking? We know full well there's religious people who would die for their beliefs.

And don't even bother to use semantics about how atheists lack belief and don't believe in anything or whatever. You all know what I mean.


It has nothing to do with God or Gods.
It has everything to do with standing tall as the unique human being you are and not letting others define through pain or threat of pain what that is.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 08:53 AM   #9
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There's a difference between dying for your beliefs and dying because of them.

A Christian Scientist dying because they won't accept a blood transfusion is not dying for their beliefs, they are dying because of them. A Muslim suicide bomber is not dying for their beliefs, they are dying because of them.

I dislike the term belief because of the anti-intellectual and religious connotations the word has, but I would lay down my life in support or defense of certain opinions, convictions, or personal standards of behavior I hold myself to.

Whether or not that is the same thing as "dying for my beliefs" is a bit of a semantic hairsplit.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 02:50 PM   #10
Kahalachan
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
First off, I suggest you watch the movie "the ledge"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1535970/
I did. And that was
dying for a real life person
which I can understand. It's for the love of another human.

I'd do that.

Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Sure, I can imagine some circumstances where I would. They're probably about as extreme as what it would take for a theist to do the same in real life (not in their imagination).

For example, say there's an oppressive religious regime that has every non-believer cowering in fear, but there's a chance the cowed people might uprise and overthrow those in power, if they had the guts. Let's say I'm going to be made an example of, by being publicly executed for heresy live on TV, but I can save my life if I renounce my nonbelief at the last minute and claim to believe.

If I thought that standing up for my principles and denying my belief would inspire others to do the same, and maybe help to change an entire nation for the better, and I knew that whatever I said would be broadcast live so it would definitely get out there raw and unedited, absolutely. No question. I'd vocally proclaim my atheism and accept my execution.

The odds of actually finding myself in such a situation? Almost zero.
That's true. An oppressive theocracy would warrant such a death. But in a way you'd be dying for freedom and not atheism. And I would die as well to stand up against oppression or terrorism and that specifically is what I would stand up against.

But rather than a "what if" terrorism situation, how about money? I would say "Ok I love god" for $10. How many religious people would blaspheme for this much?

I can't imagine a Muslim calling Mohammed a pig for $200 or a Christian committing blasphemy against the holy spirit for money. They'd be offended at such an offer while I'll be thinking "$10 for a couple words? Awesome"

If going to church was a job with a decent hourly rate, I would go to church for money. Bow to Mecca for some money? Sure. I'd sell out my lack of faith.

A lack of faith is nowhere near as important to me as having faith is for others. Not sure if that's enough to call me an apatheist or not.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
As an atheist, it'd be easy to get me to decry my belief. If I see paying lip service to be advantageous in any way I'd just mouth "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and blah blah...." If my life was at stake for sure. But I don't know......I'd probably do this for $20. It'd be quite easy to get me to just say "Yeah sure I believe in a god"
I see your point. If you got money just for saying it with no strings attached, then sure. However, if the the theists then surveilled you to ensure you live as deemed appropriate by them, it would be another matter.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
Are there any atheists out there who would vocally proclaim their atheism even under the threat of death?
I wouldn't. I wouldn't become a martyr for atheism. I would lie about pretty much anything to survive, particularly about my own opinions.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 04:26 PM   #12
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I view the "you will deny me 3 times before sunrise" kind of thing to be a major meme binding mechanism.

It isn't intended to actually be activated. It's purpose is to bind together the 99.999999% of people who will rub their chin and say, wow, I will work to have that kind of devotion, yet will never have the "opportunity" to see if they will carry it out or not.


This binding and emphasis on devotion allows the entire religious meme package to spread by entrenching itself solidly. See also "witnessing" for the Lord, where people are trained to spread the meme.


Meme data doesn't care, any more than DNA data cares. Maybe it forms a leg, maybe it forms a left buttock. Who knows. Don't care. Just whether we spread or not. Both data streams aid physical reproduction. Memes spread other ways as well. They have a bonus over DNA. Change faster. Spread via other than physical reproduction.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 05:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
As an atheist, it'd be easy to get me to decry my belief. If I see paying lip service to be advantageous in any way I'd just mouth "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and blah blah...." If my life was at stake for sure. But I don't know......I'd probably do this for $20. It'd be quite easy to get me to just say "Yeah sure I believe in a god"

Are there any atheists out there who would vocally proclaim their atheism even under the threat of death?

I don't see why. I mean it's not like you believe there's a god to reward you for doing this or any heaven you'd go to.

Maybe this is just my outlook. Are there atheists who would die for their belief is what I'm asking? We know full well there's religious people who would die for their beliefs.

And don't even bother to use semantics about how atheists lack belief and don't believe in anything or whatever. You all know what I mean.
Would lie long enough to get to my weapons in a situation like that - but as soon as I got to them there'd be some 'splainin' to do to my little high caliber friends. Really don't like religious who take it too seriously or get all pestery about it......
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Old 24th September 2012, 01:45 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
That's true. An oppressive theocracy would warrant such a death. But in a way you'd be dying for freedom and not atheism. And I would die as well to stand up against oppression or terrorism and that specifically is what I would stand up against.
But that's just the point, what is the difference?
Suicide bombers do what they do because they ultimately think it would make the world a better place, they just think that religion, terror and intimidation is the methodology to do so. Atheists believe that free thinking, avoiding stupid superstitions and actually examining reality is the way to go.

The belief in god is just the McGaffin if you will.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
But rather than a "what if" terrorism situation, how about money? I would say "Ok I love god" for $10. How many religious people would blaspheme for this much?
I wouldn't. Seriously, not for all the money in the world. I cannot imagine myself taking part in one of the world's greatest evil of ignorance.
My conscious would not allow me to do so.
You might as well ask me how much money I would take to kill someone.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
I can't imagine a Muslim calling Mohammed a pig for $200 or a Christian committing blasphemy against the holy spirit for money. They'd be offended at such an offer while I'll be thinking "$10 for a couple words? Awesome"
This isn't a question of belief. It's a question of fear.
What do you fear the most?
The person who would not swear against god for all the money in the world isn't doing it cause he believes in god, he is doing it because he is afraid of the consequences of that action.

Just like all the people who *did* convert under a threat of execution did it cause they feared the execution more than they feared god (he'll understand).
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