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30th July 2010, 10:06 PM | #361 |
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I don't read minds so I will have to take your word for it. I just can't see any connection between the two statements. Taking the credit for doing something in no way influences anyone to decide to do something they shouldn't. It's like saying, "I ran the best race of my life and won . . . Now I can't stop myself from robbing the corner store. I wish I had of given someone else credit for the win!"
I know some former alcoholics. Some of them do drink socially, some don't. It can be done. |
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30th July 2010, 10:08 PM | #362 |
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30th July 2010, 10:08 PM | #363 |
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30th July 2010, 10:15 PM | #364 |
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Oh I'm not saying it can't be done that way. I specifically said I can't do it that way.
To put it another way: I beat my addiction. I can control my drinking. I would like to have a drink. I can have a drink because I have proven that I can control it. (glug) Do you not see how some people (me) could easily go from the first sentence to the last? Anyways, I've done it so it is at least possible for one person on the planet. By the way I'm not saying it is logical. If I could logic myself sober I'd have done it on my own 20 years ago, and taken the credit |
30th July 2010, 10:15 PM | #365 |
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How very condescending of you. Perhaps you are not an alcoholic just an attention whore whose claimed alcoholism needs to be worse than anyone elses.
So there really is only one way to sobriety and it is your way. You've got the deity, you've got the blind faith and you've got the one true path. How is this not a religion? |
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30th July 2010, 10:34 PM | #366 |
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I don't see why you could add those numbers together to result in a larger "overall" success rate. If 5% of people who try cold turkey succeed, and 9% who try AA succeed, it doesn't factor in how many in each of those success groups would have succeeded with the other option (or any others). As far the numbers go, if you succeed in one you may very well have the ability to succeed in the other.
Even then, while 9% might seem a more successful result than cold turkey, AA could attract a slightly higher percentage of people who would be successful. |
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30th July 2010, 10:51 PM | #367 |
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But you are the expert? It would seem the reason they are cited is because they provide statistics and a logical argument to support their claims.
Quote:
Oh, my mistake! You aren't making a diagnosis, you are trying to call into question someone's mental health in order to have others disregard their well documented conclusions. I'm not a psychiatrist but I think that is an indicator of your own mental health.
Quote:
A.A. has made many success claims over the years, usually in the 80 - 100% range. Why is 9% now the accurate figure? |
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30th July 2010, 10:55 PM | #368 |
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All true Elbe
But what I am trying to get is some stats on other things that work. Many say "AA doesn't work" as there is nothing empirical to support it (and that is pretty much true given the anonymity desires of the members). They also say things like "other programs work just as well or better" (that is the inference anyway). So, I really want to know what these other programs are. I would like to offer my clients as many options as possible. At the moment we have some 86% of alcoholics still suffering and/or dying and no-one will come good with the numbers for me. Why not? |
30th July 2010, 11:01 PM | #369 |
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I know you're really not talking to me, but I have to say I've never, ever heard anything like that in the years I've been around AA. Not even close. The only number I have heard with my own two ears from a AA member was 7%. And he had nothing to back that up. I've never heard any of these wild claims myself. Maybe other people have.
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30th July 2010, 11:01 PM | #370 |
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That's the number I have a problem with. Even discounting that it looks like you added 5% and 9% again for no logical reason, all the numbers being used here say is that 5% (or whatever) of people who try to quit using method X succeed. It says nothing about the total population of alcoholics, as there is a presumed value Y of people who aren't trying that method (or, perhaps, any method).
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30th July 2010, 11:04 PM | #371 |
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Really?
I discount thye big book as one man's experience. The other I discount as someone with an axe to grind. Me an expert? Hardly, but I do want to leanr and educate where I can Touche The 9% was cited earlier (as between 5 and 13% earlier by another JREF member - I have used the average), and it seemed something we could agree on for the sake of ongoing discussions. If you have something else, by all means show us. The 5% seems a satisfactory default figure too for thse that go it alone and I had no problem with it for the purposes of discussion. Really? I suppose you can back up that little claim? i.e. "many claims" of the "80 -100% range"? |
30th July 2010, 11:05 PM | #372 |
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30th July 2010, 11:14 PM | #373 |
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I guess it depends on what you're looking to do with the data. Comparing relative success percentages seems fine, but trying to use them for bigger picture stats is just going to result in nonsense. Heck, you can't even get a joint percentage of people who've tried both and succeeded unless you had the actual numbers. As an example, 5% of 100 people succeeding with one program and and amazing 50% of 10 people who tried another doesn't equal 55% success across the board, but 9% of people who try succeed.
Not trying to be criticizing, I have little opinion on the debate as I don't drink, but you should always watch what you try to do with numbers. |
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30th July 2010, 11:29 PM | #374 |
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And again I agree.
My point really wasn't around the %s so much as about what else is out there. Others in the thread have made numerous claims of AA being no more than, or less successful than 'other' programs'. I genuinely and sincerely want to know what they are, but no-one seems to want to say. So in the absence of any other data - we have (say) 5% that "just stop" and (say) 9% that go to AA. |
30th July 2010, 11:48 PM | #375 |
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30th July 2010, 11:52 PM | #376 |
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It has been quoted in other threads where you have posted in favour of A.A. That you have a short memory is your problem. The success rate for A.A. is no better, and probably worse, than for those who go it alone.
Going it alone is the other program. It doesn't require mystical higher powers, suspension of intelligence, or silly mantras out of a bible like book. We haven't even touched on the multitude of lawsuits that A.A. finds itself in. |
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30th July 2010, 11:56 PM | #377 |
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I assume you're talking about scientific data here? It is kind of hard for me to tell the way this followed the other quotes.
I found a recent study that I posted in the other thread about AA that I chimed in on, that showed promise. But I'm not making any claims. All the rest of that stuff you quoted, I don't know what to say. I'll repeat what I said before. I've never heard, in person, one AA member make a claim of any rate above (or below for that matter) 7%. These wild numbers and claims of 80% to 100% are things I've never heard spoken in real life. I have only posted about my experience, of course. YMMV. |
30th July 2010, 11:56 PM | #378 |
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Quick post. Waaaaay behind on this thread.
"Science may one day accomplish this [making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic], but it hasn't done so yet." - Chapter 3, Alcoholics Anonymous. As to much of the rest, I'll say this for now. My entrance into this thread was a response to the original title of this thread which read "Why do people insist AA is not a religion?" My response was that it's not one. If the point of the thread was that "AA is so religious that it might as well be a religion," then most of my response is pretty much off-topic (witness that nobody is arguing that the Boy Scouts are a religion and nobody is arguing that they aren't a religiously oriented group). In any case I see the title has been changed to "Why do people insist AA is not religious?" So I'll address that. Clearly AA borrows heavily from religion and liberally uses language from Christianity, but it falls short of being religious itself (and that's why many choose to refer to AA as 'spiritual') |
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30th July 2010, 11:59 PM | #379 |
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31st July 2010, 12:01 AM | #380 |
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I guess you could try looking through some of the groups in this list; check their websites to see if they make any success claims.
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31st July 2010, 12:05 AM | #381 |
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31st July 2010, 12:11 AM | #382 |
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Alternately, I can point out that even in the very early days of AA, it was recognized that some people can change on their own.
"If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him." - Ch. 3 Alcoholics Anonymous. |
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31st July 2010, 12:14 AM | #383 |
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Really? You are going to have to show me where I said that, and then point out why (on the basis of discussions here) I can't change my mind.
I could, I know about SMART and a few others. I thougt our posters here might have actually been able to support their nonsensical claims. Aparently not. btw. And for the umpteenth time. I do not think AA is the only way, but it is a way. |
31st July 2010, 12:15 AM | #384 |
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Quote:
What my advice is when people ask: Try everything. Try AA, therapy, cold turkey, anything and everything in whatever order you want. There's no tried and true way to quit. Different methods work for different people and none of them work all that well. But the more you try the better chance you'll find one that works. |
31st July 2010, 12:19 AM | #385 |
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yep.
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31st July 2010, 12:21 AM | #386 |
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31st July 2010, 12:22 AM | #387 |
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31st July 2010, 12:28 AM | #388 |
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31st July 2010, 12:29 AM | #389 |
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I'll note anecdotally, most churches that lend or rent out space for AA meetings have no idea what is said or done in those AA meetings. They offer the space as an extension of the 'public works' facet of their religion and not because they approve of what is said theologically.
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31st July 2010, 12:54 AM | #390 |
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Gayak you've hit the nail on the head - AAAlfie's statement is just the kind of
AAAlfie's statement is just the thing I'd expect from a dedicated cult member, things like "It's not the AA programs fault it's not working, it's because you don't have enough faith in your Higher Power", or because the member isn't capable of rigorous honesty, or as AA dogma puts it "Rarely have we seen a person fail if they have thoroughly followed our path" (that is, get Bill W's particular kind of religion, develop a personal relationship with your Creator, reinforce this relationship with inventory taking, prayer, and meditation - then go out and get more cult recruits) - this is what the AA program 'suggests' the alcoholic do; a "suggestion" they call it, of course, right before they state that if you use your own thinking, your own willpower (or try to learn how to effectively deploy these personal resources) and don't follow their suggestions you'll end up worse then before in either an insane asylum, jail - or dead.
Rather effective 'suggestion' eh ? to give to someone who's on their last mental and physical legs, beaten down to an emotional pulp and made ready to accept and do whatever the book, the program, the group, or their sponsor tells them to do. All throughout the AA writings one is constantly asked if they are willing to do whatever is necessary - George Valiant spoke about this in one of his studies, about the 'value' (his phrasing) of fully enabling the placebo effect through group (read 'cult') persuasion. And I'll say this again (and again, until either AAAlfie hears it & it finally registers, or my fingers fall off) - if the groups you've been to have all demoted the god of bill's understanding to the point where it's rarely if ever mentioned - if the groups he's attending do not have many members who feel the be all and end all of solutions to every human problem (not just drinking) is contained in the first 164 pages - if the groups he attends do not claim 'rarely have we seen a person fail etc etc' - then the groups AAAlfie is attending are AA groups only in name - in essence, they are not AA at all.. When mentioning of god and higher power, dependence on faith in this power, turning one's life and will completely - without reservation - over to the care of this power - when these things are removed from AA you basically have a SMART or SOS (save our selves) self help group recovery meeting. That is - you no longer have AA once you remove the religious content - you have a secular meeting (SOS meetings are short for Secular Organizations for Sobriety, as well as Save Our Selves). This means the groups AAAlfie is talking about have gotten rid of AA's insistent ceaseless claim that the only way to sobriety is through faith in a Higher Power - a Power the newcomer will soon call God. This is a good thing, what with AA's dismal failure rate (95%+ failure in getting people sober and keeping them that way for a year) Concluding this short post, let me add I am very pleased AAAlfie is sober without falling for the AA dogma of needing god to solve his alcoholism, without turning his life & will completely over to a non-existent spiritually based Higher Power . AAAlfie appears to have not used AA much -if any - at all! and seems like he's sober. Not only that - it seems like he's found an SOS group, has been attending, and didn't even know it! Lastly, I'll answer again whoever is asking (am repeating myself alot, as the AA supporters seem to be mostly ignoring my posts and links to data) why I keep repeating the 'old' AA literature (like, doh, the Big Book and 12x12)since he says "the program has evolved, and AA has evolved, etc.." My answer? Well sir, the AA program has not evolved - hardly a word or sentence has altered since Bill W composed it back in the 30's. That's one of the main problems I've been trying to get across!! Sure, some groups have evolved - they evolved away from AA!! Not only that, but (according to AAAlfie in any case) these non-AA groups are at least just as effective as AA (5% cure/95% failure rate - who knows , maybe even higher) - and both are just as effective as doing minimal treatment. So, with that in mind - why spend the massive $$ on treatment centers all over the globe, why bankrupt families with tremendous medical bills for non-medical treatment modalities, why bother reading the big book god nonsense - when doing nothing or short doctor-based intervention/minimal treatment is just as effective in getting & maintaining soberiety - and the AA way has been shown (in studies at the links I previously posted in this thread) to actually cause an increased level of dangerous binge drinking?? My suggestion : find an SoS, or SMART, or WFS (all secular non-12 step alternatives with a proven track record) and give any of those a shot, if you're an alcoholic who is ready to quit but isn't sure how. Why bother with AA at all? |
31st July 2010, 01:01 AM | #391 |
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Wrong: yes, it has been studied and proven to the point where many multiple studies, using different methods, have come to the same conclusion. If you'd read the links I repeatedly have been providing and actually read them all the way through, this would be clear to you as well. Perhaps go back and look at my links? Who knows, you might find it enlightening - if not, well at least it's a free educational experience.
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31st July 2010, 01:04 AM | #392 |
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31st July 2010, 01:59 AM | #393 |
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Geez, it was only a "suggestion".
Reported by the way Right. I have manitained that all the way through. Um, hang on, no I haven't. So the alcoholic should just abandon all hope, keep treating himself and those around him like ***** and make no effort at recovery at all. Great idea. And yet you still go there, got sober there, and are the walking personification of why AA is not religious. |
31st July 2010, 02:38 AM | #394 |
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31st July 2010, 02:44 AM | #395 |
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I agree with that Elbe - and I might even agree with the underlying thrust, but that is not what was said:
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Treatment by way of detox, rehab and maintenance (or a combination) will always be better than just stopping or continuing to drink. |
31st July 2010, 02:51 AM | #396 |
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Ah, I think I might have had a reading mix-up. Right now I'm reading qayak's "no treatment" to mean cold turkey, which obviously isn't the same as giving up completely. I'm listing cold turkey as a treatment, even if it's not the same as any sort of program.
Trying anything to stop is, obviously, more effective than not trying anything to stop - even if you fail. |
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31st July 2010, 03:06 AM | #397 |
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Yep.
No probs. |
31st July 2010, 04:15 AM | #398 |
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Well AA Alfie, the members take them a little more seriously than that, it is one of the fanatic things about the members, along with "You will be in AA your whole life" and "Thou shalt seek no other help", "Thou shalt take no psychotropics", it is not official AA policy but it is just one of those consistent fanaticisms of many group members.
"You have to work the steps", "Without the inventory you can't stop", now again I know that is not official policy but it is a very strong cultural value of the members of AA and one I find to be a barrier, just like the religious aspects. It is why I like DFD groups. |
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31st July 2010, 04:17 AM | #399 |
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31st July 2010, 04:20 AM | #400 |
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