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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 30th July 2010, 10:06 PM   #361
qayak
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
This may be true but for me would be a dangerous way to think. It is a very short step from:

I did it I deserve the credit!

to:

Hey, I can control my drinking! 1 or 2 after work today won't hurt me, I got the willpower to handle it now...
I don't read minds so I will have to take your word for it. I just can't see any connection between the two statements. Taking the credit for doing something in no way influences anyone to decide to do something they shouldn't. It's like saying, "I ran the best race of my life and won . . . Now I can't stop myself from robbing the corner store. I wish I had of given someone else credit for the win!"

I know some former alcoholics. Some of them do drink socially, some don't. It can be done.
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:08 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I know some former alcoholics. Some of them do drink socially, some don't. It can be done.
I would suggest they were heavy or problem drinkers, not alcoholics.
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:08 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
See?!
I do see, A.A. was wrong.
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:15 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I don't read minds so I will have to take your word for it. I just can't see any connection between the two statements. Taking the credit for doing something in no way influences anyone to decide to do something they shouldn't. It's like saying, "I ran the best race of my life and won . . . Now I can't stop myself from robbing the corner store. I wish I had of given someone else credit for the win!"

I know some former alcoholics. Some of them do drink socially, some don't. It can be done.
Oh I'm not saying it can't be done that way. I specifically said I can't do it that way.

To put it another way:

I beat my addiction.
I can control my drinking.
I would like to have a drink.
I can have a drink because I have proven that I can control it.
(glug)

Do you not see how some people (me) could easily go from the first sentence to the last? Anyways, I've done it so it is at least possible for one person on the planet.

By the way I'm not saying it is logical. If I could logic myself sober I'd have done it on my own 20 years ago, and taken the credit
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:15 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I would suggest they were heavy or problem drinkers, not alcoholics.
How very condescending of you. Perhaps you are not an alcoholic just an attention whore whose claimed alcoholism needs to be worse than anyone elses.

So there really is only one way to sobriety and it is your way. You've got the deity, you've got the blind faith and you've got the one true path. How is this not a religion?
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:34 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
And btw, to you and others - I am still waiting on some stats for other forms of recovery that can add to our 5% "just stopped" and AAs 9%.
I don't see why you could add those numbers together to result in a larger "overall" success rate. If 5% of people who try cold turkey succeed, and 9% who try AA succeed, it doesn't factor in how many in each of those success groups would have succeeded with the other option (or any others). As far the numbers go, if you succeed in one you may very well have the ability to succeed in the other.

Even then, while 9% might seem a more successful result than cold turkey, AA could attract a slightly higher percentage of people who would be successful.
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:51 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
You seem to give an awful lot weight to the opinions of a handful of people (i.e. Bill, Bob and Orange). Each are simply individuals with their own opinions and experience. None of them is or has the last word. Why you keep rolling out the Bill and Orange as proof of anything is beyond me to be honest - it is tedious and pointless.
But you are the expert? It would seem the reason they are cited is because they provide statistics and a logical argument to support their claims.

Quote:
This nutter has the final word? Please!
Perhaps he is in denial and is justifying his disease? If nothing else he's probably obsessive compulsive, filled with resentment, hate and revenge.
Now you are claiming to be a professional able to make psychological diagnosis by merely reading the words of another person.

Oh, my mistake! You aren't making a diagnosis, you are trying to call into question someone's mental health in order to have others disregard their well documented conclusions.

I'm not a psychiatrist but I think that is an indicator of your own mental health.

Quote:
And btw, to you and others - I am still waiting on some stats for other forms of recovery that can add to our 5% "just stopped" and AAs 9%.
Interesting. Where do your stats come from? A.A. doesn't give out this type of information and all other sources say that their results are not accurate because of A.A.'s secretiveness. All the ones I have read also state that there is no evidence that A.A. has any better success than people who go it alone.

A.A. has made many success claims over the years, usually in the 80 - 100% range. Why is 9% now the accurate figure?
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:55 PM   #368
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All true Elbe
But what I am trying to get is some stats on other things that work.

Many say "AA doesn't work" as there is nothing empirical to support it (and that is pretty much true given the anonymity desires of the members).
They also say things like "other programs work just as well or better" (that is the inference anyway).

So, I really want to know what these other programs are. I would like to offer my clients as many options as possible.

At the moment we have some 86% of alcoholics still suffering and/or dying and no-one will come good with the numbers for me.

Why not?
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:01 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
A.A. has made many success claims over the years, usually in the 80 - 100% range. Why is 9% now the accurate figure?
I know you're really not talking to me, but I have to say I've never, ever heard anything like that in the years I've been around AA. Not even close. The only number I have heard with my own two ears from a AA member was 7%. And he had nothing to back that up. I've never heard any of these wild claims myself. Maybe other people have.
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:01 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
At the moment we have some 86% of alcoholics still suffering and/or dying and no-one will come good with the numbers for me.
That's the number I have a problem with. Even discounting that it looks like you added 5% and 9% again for no logical reason, all the numbers being used here say is that 5% (or whatever) of people who try to quit using method X succeed. It says nothing about the total population of alcoholics, as there is a presumed value Y of people who aren't trying that method (or, perhaps, any method).
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:04 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
But you are the expert? It would seem the reason they are cited is because they provide statistics and a logical argument to support their claims.
Really?
I discount thye big book as one man's experience.
The other I discount as someone with an axe to grind.

Me an expert? Hardly, but I do want to leanr and educate where I can

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Now you are claiming to be a professional able to make psychological diagnosis by merely reading the words of another person.
Touche

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Interesting. Where do your stats come from? A.A. doesn't give out this type of information and all other sources say that their results are not accurate because of A.A.'s secretiveness. All the ones I have read also state that there is no evidence that A.A. has any better success than people who go it alone.
The 9% was cited earlier (as between 5 and 13% earlier by another JREF member - I have used the average), and it seemed something we could agree on for the sake of ongoing discussions. If you have something else, by all means show us.
The 5% seems a satisfactory default figure too for thse that go it alone and I had no problem with it for the purposes of discussion.

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
A.A. has made many success claims over the years, usually in the 80 - 100% range.
Really?
I suppose you can back up that little claim? i.e. "many claims" of the "80 -100% range"?
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:05 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
That's the number I have a problem with. Even discounting that it looks like you added 5% and 9% again for no logical reason, all the numbers being used here say is that 5% (or whatever) of people who try to quit using method X succeed. It says nothing about the total population of alcoholics, as there is a presumed value Y of people who aren't trying that method (or, perhaps, any method).
Again, a fair point. But in the absense of other data it seems an acceptable starting point to me.
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:14 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Again, a fair point. But in the absense of other data it seems an acceptable starting point to me.
I guess it depends on what you're looking to do with the data. Comparing relative success percentages seems fine, but trying to use them for bigger picture stats is just going to result in nonsense. Heck, you can't even get a joint percentage of people who've tried both and succeeded unless you had the actual numbers. As an example, 5% of 100 people succeeding with one program and and amazing 50% of 10 people who tried another doesn't equal 55% success across the board, but 9% of people who try succeed.

Not trying to be criticizing, I have little opinion on the debate as I don't drink, but you should always watch what you try to do with numbers.
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:29 PM   #374
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And again I agree.

My point really wasn't around the %s so much as about what else is out there. Others in the thread have made numerous claims of AA being no more than, or less successful than 'other' programs'.

I genuinely and sincerely want to know what they are, but no-one seems to want to say. So in the absence of any other data - we have (say) 5% that "just stop" and (say) 9% that go to AA.

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Old 30th July 2010, 11:48 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
I know you're really not talking to me, but I have to say I've never, ever heard anything like that in the years I've been around AA. Not even close. The only number I have heard with my own two ears from a AA member was 7%. And he had nothing to back that up. I've never heard any of these wild claims myself. Maybe other people have.
Quote:
-100% effectiveness with non-psychotic drinkers who sincerely want to quit. A.A.’s Jack Alexander Article about A.A., 1991.
Quote:
-93% of those surveyed in Cleveland maintained uninterrupted sobriety. DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, p. 261; Dick B., That Amazing Grace, pp. 7, 29, 66; Mitch K. How It Worked, p. 108; Our A.A. Legacy by Three Clarence Snyder old-time rSponsees, 2005.
Quote:
-75% of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober and once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and about two-thirds of the remainder returned as time passed. Wilson’s Three Talks to Medical Societies, p. 13; A Program for You: A Guide to the Big Book’s Design for Living, 1991, p. 15; repeated in many pieces of A.A. literature.
Quote:
-As we gained in size, we also gained in effectiveness. The recovery rate went up. Of all those who really tried A.A., 50 per cent made it at once, 25 per cent finally made it; and the rest, if they stayed with us, were definitely improved. That percentage has since held, even with those who first wrote their stories in the original edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous." In fact, 75 per cent of these finally achieved sobriety. Only 25 per cent died or went mad. Most of those still alive have been sober for an average of twenty years.
Quote:
The 50-75% success rate number has been cited, without change or challenge, since it first publicly appeared in 1941 and it persists to this date.
(From: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf)

NOTE- The claim that all other members lives were improved raises this claimed success rate to 75-100%
And I have not been able to find any claim to 9+% success rate for A.A. The best I find is 5% and most cite less, ie.- 2.5% - .01%.
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:52 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
And again I agree.

My point really wasn't around the %s so much as about what else is out there. Others in the thread have made numerous claims of AA being no more than, or less successful than 'other' programs'.

I genuinely and sincerely want to know what they are, but no-one seems to want to say. So in the absence of any other data - we have (say) 5% that "just stop" and (say) 9% that go to AA.
It has been quoted in other threads where you have posted in favour of A.A. That you have a short memory is your problem. The success rate for A.A. is no better, and probably worse, than for those who go it alone.

Going it alone is the other program. It doesn't require mystical higher powers, suspension of intelligence, or silly mantras out of a bible like book.

We haven't even touched on the multitude of lawsuits that A.A. finds itself in.
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:56 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
And I have not been able to find any claim to 9+% success rate for A.A. The best I find is 5% and most cite less, ie.- 2.5% - .01%.
I assume you're talking about scientific data here? It is kind of hard for me to tell the way this followed the other quotes.

I found a recent study that I posted in the other thread about AA that I chimed in on, that showed promise. But I'm not making any claims.

All the rest of that stuff you quoted, I don't know what to say. I'll repeat what I said before. I've never heard, in person, one AA member make a claim of any rate above (or below for that matter) 7%. These wild numbers and claims of 80% to 100% are things I've never heard spoken in real life.

I have only posted about my experience, of course. YMMV.
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:56 PM   #378
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Quick post. Waaaaay behind on this thread.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
Oh REALLY!!! Ibogaine trials have been suppressed in the US. And I bet you won't be able to back that up with an Official AA statement from its National or International offices. Though, I'll grant that maybe you'll find some local group or individual somewhere that is open to it.
"Science may one day accomplish this [making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic], but it hasn't done so yet." - Chapter 3, Alcoholics Anonymous.



As to much of the rest, I'll say this for now. My entrance into this thread was a response to the original title of this thread which read "Why do people insist AA is not a religion?" My response was that it's not one. If the point of the thread was that "AA is so religious that it might as well be a religion," then most of my response is pretty much off-topic (witness that nobody is arguing that the Boy Scouts are a religion and nobody is arguing that they aren't a religiously oriented group).

In any case I see the title has been changed to "Why do people insist AA is not religious?" So I'll address that. Clearly AA borrows heavily from religion and liberally uses language from Christianity, but it falls short of being religious itself (and that's why many choose to refer to AA as 'spiritual')
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:59 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
It has been quoted in other threads where you have posted in favour of A.A. That you have a short memory is your problem. The success rate for A.A. is no better, and probably worse, than for those who go it alone.
I don't think this has been proven, anywhere. I honestly don't think there's been enough scientific study to say one way or the other.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:01 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
And again I agree.

My point really wasn't around the %s so much as about what else is out there. Others in the thread have made numerous claims of AA being no more than, or less successful than 'other' programs'.

I genuinely and sincerely want to know what they are, but no-one seems to want to say. So in the absence of any other data - we have (say) 5% that "just stop" and (say) 9% that go to AA.
I guess you could try looking through some of the groups in this list; check their websites to see if they make any success claims.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:05 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
I don't think this has been proven, anywhere. I honestly don't think there's been enough scientific study to say one way or the other.
While looking at the website for another group, SMART Recovery, for any sort of numbers, they had this in their FAQ:
Quote:
Q. Is SMART Recovery® as effective as AA?

A. From a scientific perspective, the effectiveness of all support groups for addictive behavior is unproven. The only way to answer that question is to attend meetings from all available groups, and reach a personal conclusion about the best approach to recovery.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:11 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I know some former alcoholics. Some of them do drink socially, some don't. It can be done.
I would suggest they were heavy or problem drinkers, not alcoholics.
Alternately, I can point out that even in the very early days of AA, it was recognized that some people can change on their own.

"If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him." - Ch. 3 Alcoholics Anonymous.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:14 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
It has been quoted in other threads where you have posted in favour of A.A. That you have a short memory is your problem. The success rate for A.A. is no better, and probably worse, than for those who go it alone.
Really? You are going to have to show me where I said that, and then point out why (on the basis of discussions here) I can't change my mind.

Originally Posted by elbe View Post
I guess you could try looking through some of the groups in this list; check their websites to see if they make any success claims.
I could, I know about SMART and a few others. I thougt our posters here might have actually been able to support their nonsensical claims. Aparently not.

btw. And for the umpteenth time. I do not think AA is the only way, but it is a way.

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Old 31st July 2010, 12:15 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
While looking at the website for another group, SMART Recovery, for any sort of numbers, they had this in their FAQ:
Quote:
Q. Is SMART Recovery® as effective as AA?

A. From a scientific perspective, the effectiveness of all support groups for addictive behavior is unproven. The only way to answer that question is to attend meetings from all available groups, and reach a personal conclusion about the best approach to recovery.
This is my thinking exactly..

What my advice is when people ask: Try everything. Try AA, therapy, cold turkey, anything and everything in whatever order you want. There's no tried and true way to quit. Different methods work for different people and none of them work all that well. But the more you try the better chance you'll find one that works.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:19 AM   #385
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yep.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:21 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
I don't think this has been proven, anywhere. I honestly don't think there's been enough scientific study to say one way or the other.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-....html#Vaillant

Quote:
The Harvard Medical School reported that in the long run, the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics is slightly over 50 percent. That means that the annual rate of spontaneous remission is around 5 percent.

What Professor Vaillant, a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. — in other words, one of the highest-ranking A.A. leaders — is candidly, clearly describing is a zero-percent success rate for his A.A.-based treatment program.

Look at the "Abstinent or social drinking" and "Improved" columns of Table 8. You have to add the numbers together to get the over-all improvement rate for that item. So, for "A.A.", "no treatment", and "other treatment", we get 33%, 32%, and 37% over-all improvement rates, respectively. Those numbers are basically the same. There is no statistically significant difference between 33 and 32 percent, and hardly any between 33 and 37 percent. So A.A. treatment was no better than either "other treatment" or no treatment at all, and conversely, "other treatment" wasn't a whole lot better than either A.A. or "no treatment", either. After two years of A.A. treatment, "other treatment", or "no treatment", roughly two-thirds of the patients in all of those groups were still abusing alcohol. That's a dismal result.

Look at the "Abstinent or social drinking" and "Improved" columns of Table 8.2. Again, you have to add the numbers together to get the over-all improvement rate for that item. The A.A. "Clinic sample" scored 45 percent improved over-all, while the other programs ranged from 35 to 47 percent. Two of the programs, those in the Bratfos and Voetglin-Broz studies, seem to have been much worse than average, but all of the rest of the programs, including A.A., show approximately the same results. (The Voetglin-Broz study used something called "Conditioned Reflex Treatment". What caused the poor results in the Norwegian Bratfos study is unknown.)

Look at the "Dead" column of Table 8.2. The A.A.-treated group, the "Clinic sample", with the death rate of 29%, had the highest death rate of any kind of program, significantly higher than all of the other programs.

And those five people out of the hundred in the A.A.-treated "Clinic sample" who successfully stayed sober for 8 years are just the result of that same old five percent spontaneous remission rate at work, again.

As Professor Vaillant reported, the A.A. treatment program did not alter the natural history (the usual course) of alcoholism, except for yielding a higher death rate than doing nothing. A.A. did not save the alcoholics; it didn't even help them; it just killed them.

Remember that these terrible numbers were reported by a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., by a real true believer in A.A., by one of the highest-ranking A.A. insiders, by someone who loves A.A. and was trying hard to make it look good, not by some harsh critic of A.A. who might be suspected of bias, or of fudging the numbers to make A.A. look bad...
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:22 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
This is my thinking exactly..

What my advice is when people ask: Try everything. Try AA, therapy, cold turkey, anything and everything in whatever order you want. There's no tried and true way to quit. Different methods work for different people and none of them work all that well. But the more you try the better chance you'll find one that works.
Since it's my opinion that, in the end, it's all up to the willpower of the person to go sober (unless you have someone physically interfering with your ability to buy a drink, I guess) then the more you try then, perhaps, it helps build up your own willpower.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:28 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
This is my thinking exactly..

What my advice is when people ask: Try everything. Try AA, therapy, cold turkey, anything and everything in whatever order you want. There's no tried and true way to quit. Different methods work for different people and none of them work all that well. But the more you try the better chance you'll find one that works.
You forgot to mention that no treatment is just as effective as any treatment. That piece of advice saves them time, money and chairs that make your ass numb.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:29 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Manopolus View Post
It might be interesting to note that there are 2 AA groups in this town (pop. 25,000) and this was the one that didn't meet in a church (the other one did). I suspect that the two groups were greatly different.
I'll note anecdotally, most churches that lend or rent out space for AA meetings have no idea what is said or done in those AA meetings. They offer the space as an extension of the 'public works' facet of their religion and not because they approve of what is said theologically.
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Old 31st July 2010, 12:54 AM   #390
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Gayak you've hit the nail on the head - AAAlfie's statement is just the kind of

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
How very condescending of you. Perhaps you are not an alcoholic just an attention whore whose claimed alcoholism needs to be worse than anyone elses.

So there really is only one way to sobriety and it is your way. You've got the deity, you've got the blind faith and you've got the one true path. How is this not a religion?
AAAlfie's statement is just the thing I'd expect from a dedicated cult member, things like "It's not the AA programs fault it's not working, it's because you don't have enough faith in your Higher Power", or because the member isn't capable of rigorous honesty, or as AA dogma puts it "Rarely have we seen a person fail if they have thoroughly followed our path" (that is, get Bill W's particular kind of religion, develop a personal relationship with your Creator, reinforce this relationship with inventory taking, prayer, and meditation - then go out and get more cult recruits) - this is what the AA program 'suggests' the alcoholic do; a "suggestion" they call it, of course, right before they state that if you use your own thinking, your own willpower (or try to learn how to effectively deploy these personal resources) and don't follow their suggestions you'll end up worse then before in either an insane asylum, jail - or dead.

Rather effective 'suggestion' eh ? to give to someone who's on their last mental and physical legs, beaten down to an emotional pulp and made ready to accept and do whatever the book, the program, the group, or their sponsor tells them to do. All throughout the AA writings one is constantly asked if they are willing to do whatever is necessary - George Valiant spoke about this in one of his studies, about the 'value' (his phrasing) of fully enabling the placebo effect through group (read 'cult') persuasion.

And I'll say this again (and again, until either AAAlfie hears it & it finally registers, or my fingers fall off) - if the groups you've been to have all demoted the god of bill's understanding to the point where it's rarely if ever mentioned - if the groups he's attending do not have many members who feel the be all and end all of solutions to every human problem (not just drinking) is contained in the first 164 pages - if the groups he attends do not claim 'rarely have we seen a person fail etc etc' - then the groups AAAlfie is attending are AA groups only in name - in essence, they are not AA at all.. When mentioning of god and higher power, dependence on faith in this power, turning one's life and will completely - without reservation - over to the care of this power - when these things are removed from AA you basically have a SMART or SOS (save our selves) self help group recovery meeting.

That is - you no longer have AA once you remove the religious content - you have a secular meeting (SOS meetings are short for Secular Organizations for Sobriety, as well as Save Our Selves).
This means the groups AAAlfie is talking about have gotten rid of AA's insistent ceaseless claim that the only way to sobriety is through faith in a Higher Power - a Power the newcomer will soon call God.
This is a good thing, what with AA's dismal failure rate (95%+ failure in getting people sober and keeping them that way for a year)

Concluding this short post, let me add I am very pleased AAAlfie is sober without falling for the AA dogma of needing god to solve his alcoholism, without turning his life & will completely over to a non-existent spiritually based Higher Power . AAAlfie appears to have not used AA much -if any - at all! and seems like he's sober. Not only that - it seems like he's found an SOS group, has been attending, and didn't even know it!

Lastly, I'll answer again whoever is asking (am repeating myself alot, as the AA supporters seem to be mostly ignoring my posts and links to data) why I keep repeating the 'old' AA literature (like, doh, the Big Book and 12x12)since he says "the program has evolved, and AA has evolved, etc.."

My answer? Well sir, the AA program has not evolved - hardly a word or sentence has altered since Bill W composed it back in the 30's. That's one of the main problems I've been trying to get across!! Sure, some groups have evolved - they evolved away from AA!! Not only that, but (according to AAAlfie in any case) these non-AA groups are at least just as effective as AA (5% cure/95% failure rate - who knows , maybe even higher) - and both are just as effective as doing minimal treatment.

So, with that in mind - why spend the massive $$ on treatment centers all over the globe, why bankrupt families with tremendous medical bills for non-medical treatment modalities, why bother reading the big book god nonsense - when doing nothing or short doctor-based intervention/minimal treatment is just as effective in getting & maintaining soberiety - and the AA way has been shown (in studies at the links I previously posted in this thread) to actually cause an increased level of dangerous binge drinking??

My suggestion : find an SoS, or SMART, or WFS (all secular non-12 step alternatives with a proven track record) and give any of those a shot, if you're an alcoholic who is ready to quit but isn't sure how.

Why bother with AA at all?

Last edited by Tinyal; 31st July 2010 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 31st July 2010, 01:01 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
I don't think this has been proven, anywhere. I honestly don't think there's been enough scientific study to say one way or the other.
Wrong: yes, it has been studied and proven to the point where many multiple studies, using different methods, have come to the same conclusion. If you'd read the links I repeatedly have been providing and actually read them all the way through, this would be clear to you as well. Perhaps go back and look at my links? Who knows, you might find it enlightening - if not, well at least it's a free educational experience.

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Old 31st July 2010, 01:04 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Irony was my intention. Missed by that ll much.
I thought it was funny, actually.
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Old 31st July 2010, 01:59 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
How very condescending of you. Perhaps you are not an alcoholic just an attention whore whose claimed alcoholism needs to be worse than anyone elses.
Geez, it was only a "suggestion".
Reported by the way

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
So there really is only one way to sobriety and it is your way. You've got the deity, you've got the blind faith and you've got the one true path.
Right.

I have manitained that all the way through.
Um, hang on, no I haven't.


Originally Posted by qayak View Post
You forgot to mention that no treatment is just as effective as any treatment. That piece of advice saves them time, money and chairs that make your ass numb.
So the alcoholic should just abandon all hope, keep treating himself and those around him like ***** and make no effort at recovery at all.
Great idea.

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
snip

Why bother with AA at all?
And yet you still go there, got sober there, and are the walking personification of why AA is not religious.
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Old 31st July 2010, 02:38 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
So the alcoholic should just abandon all hope, keep treating himself and those around him like ***** and make no effort at recovery at all.
Great idea.
Saying no one treatment is better than another is not the same as saying treatment is no better than no treatment.
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Old 31st July 2010, 02:44 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
Saying no one treatment is better than another is not the same as saying treatment is no better than no treatment.
I agree with that Elbe - and I might even agree with the underlying thrust, but that is not what was said:

Quote:
"no treatment is just as effective as any treatment"
In other words, doing nothing is the same as doing something.
Treatment by way of detox, rehab and maintenance (or a combination) will always be better than just stopping or continuing to drink.

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Old 31st July 2010, 02:51 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I agree with that Elbe - and I might even agree with the underlying thrust, but that is not what was said:



this is patently untrue and there is zero data to back it up.
Treatment by way of detox, rehab and maintenance (or a combination) will always be better than just stopping or continuing to drink.
Ah, I think I might have had a reading mix-up. Right now I'm reading qayak's "no treatment" to mean cold turkey, which obviously isn't the same as giving up completely. I'm listing cold turkey as a treatment, even if it's not the same as any sort of program.

Trying anything to stop is, obviously, more effective than not trying anything to stop - even if you fail.
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Old 31st July 2010, 03:06 AM   #397
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Yep.
No probs.
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Old 31st July 2010, 04:15 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
What it actually says is:
- "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:"
then step 1, 2 etc etc

How would you read that?
Well AA Alfie, the members take them a little more seriously than that, it is one of the fanatic things about the members, along with "You will be in AA your whole life" and "Thou shalt seek no other help", "Thou shalt take no psychotropics", it is not official AA policy but it is just one of those consistent fanaticisms of many group members.

"You have to work the steps", "Without the inventory you can't stop", now again I know that is not official policy but it is a very strong cultural value of the members of AA and one I find to be a barrier, just like the religious aspects. It is why I like DFD groups.
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Old 31st July 2010, 04:17 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
There is another approach -- from the backside. Instead of thinking about what AA proposes and tells its membership, what would it take to get thrown out of AA? What would constitute heresy?

If you are an atheist, I don't think that would do it. What I'm getting at is what AA would view as a sin, or a action so counter to its purpose that expulsion would be the only remedy?
being drunk or distruptive will get you asked to leave many groups.
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Old 31st July 2010, 04:20 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Well AA Alfie, the members take them a little more seriously than that, it is one of the fanatic things about the members, along with "You will be in AA your whole life" and "Thou shalt seek no other help", "Thou shalt take no psychotropics", it is not official AA policy but it is just one of those consistent fanaticisms of many group members.

"You have to work the steps", "Without the inventory you can't stop", now again I know that is not official policy but it is a very strong cultural value of the members of AA and one I find to be a barrier, just like the religious aspects. It is why I like DFD groups.
Yep, some people are fanatical, but that doesn't make it 'policy'.

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
being drunk or distruptive will get you asked to leave many groups.
That is true too - but I would always hope with the offer of "keep coming back".
They have not been expelled from the fellowship, just the meeting.
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