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1st August 2010, 06:32 AM | #441 |
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Hi Hud, you will note that I stated quite clearly that is the fanatic behavior of certain members of AA.
These are real things I have heard over and over again, not in all meetings, certainly and as I am human and limited in space/time, I do not know what sample they represent. But I sure have heard them a lot. And in NA meetings as well. You tend to here them more from the members in the social settings outside the meetings, but I have heard them plenty of times in meetings. It might have something to do with some contact with a lot of recovering addicts, residential rehab, IOP rehab as well. |
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1st August 2010, 10:56 AM | #442 |
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You either have a comprehension problem or you are employing the same techniques fundamentalist religious groups use to defend their beliefs. Not sure which at this point.
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If the disease model is correct, why is their no medical treatment? Why are there no doctors overseeing A.A. meetings? Would we expect Cancer Anonymous groups with people sitting around talking about their personal cancer experiences and, encouraging each other to just quit cancer, to have any effect on actually curing cancer?
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1st August 2010, 11:17 AM | #443 |
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Also, we would expect treatments to actually work and we would expect them to improve. Even if it was not (yet) possible to cure the disease we would expect it to become easier to manage the disease as well as to live with it.
Look at pretty much any other disease and you'd see a development like this. Also, if it was a disease, we would expect to see at least some explanation about it's development and the usual course the disease takes. Some explanation that is biological at its core. |
1st August 2010, 11:35 AM | #444 |
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From someone had substance problems and tried the AA/NA route, it is religious and despite what they tell you, they expect you to believe in "God". I went to my first AA meeting as NA meetings were very far and few inbetween in my city, and the AA people say they welcome anyone. Once you tell them you have a drug problem, they look at you weird, they can't understand how someone doing heroin or cocaine could have anything in common with them. Which to me, is completely ass backwards. You can do heroin, meth, cocaine and be hooked in a matter of weeks. To become a full blown alcoholic, you have to work at it for years and years, waking up in strange places, hangover after hangover, blackouts, etc to get yourself to the physical dependency that a hardcore user can get in a matter of weeks. Anyways, once they ostracize you a bit for not being a drunk, and let you into their circle, out comes the god. They "say" its ok, you can believe in anything you want or nothing at all, we're not pumping religion to you and try the "higher power can be anything you want" line, but say you're an atheist to the group, and you are ostracized even more! I went to maybe 50 meetings at different places over the city, hoping one would be more accepting and they weren't. NA finally started to pickup in my city, and I switched to that. Same crap, different initials. They don't push the religion as hard, but its still there. Also because with AA, the median age tends to be middle-age males, NA tends to be made up of a more diverse group and includes many more females, which turns it into some big wacked out dating game. You're clean, your penis is starting to work again for the first time in years and there are woman around who "know" what you're going through and everyone hooks up. Of course this always ends in failure because then their is two weak chains in a relationship, all it takes is one of you to justify using again and the other will usually go along in a second.
I am 11 years clean and I did it on my own, with the help of friends and support and nothing else. No methadone, no treatment place BS, no AA/NA, no pills, nothing. If you can't do it on your own, you are doomed to fail again because all you are doing is relying on crutches. If you are tempted to drink and the only thing that stopped you that day is going to a meeting, whats going to happen the next time its 4am, or your sponsor isn't home, or you're away on vacation. If you can't muster the strength to do it on your own, you will probably fail. I'm not trying to say I'm superman, its hard, still 11 years later, I can take a drag of a cigarette and still swear I just tasted crack, smell some spoiled fruit and get a whiff of the decomp that smells almost like ether that is used in drug production, I watch people get high on intervention and it can make my heart race a little. But I am clean, and sober and I have to thank GETTING AWAY from AA and NA for that. Staying there would have led me to probably getting high again just to deal with God everyday. |
1st August 2010, 02:49 PM | #445 |
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1st August 2010, 04:25 PM | #446 |
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Back in my drinking days, I was court ordered to attend AA following a DUI. When I told the AA leader that I was not at all a believer in any sort of "higher power", he told me, and this is a quote...
Fake it till you make it. ...in other words, it was fine to lie to myself, because "eventually"? I would believe. AA is religion pure and simple, and forcing DUI offenders to attend is a violation of the separation of church and state...but like others, it was easier just to go along than to pay a ginormous fine/risk jail time. ..oh, and I quit drinking on my own...in the same manner that I quit smoking cigarettes. |
1st August 2010, 05:18 PM | #447 |
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They would seem to me to be the ones best placed to make a decision - far better that you or me.
So what else do you have except your personal and unqualified opinion? There is treatment - detox, rehab, maintenance. Why are there no doctors in AA? I am incredulous you need to ask this actually. Because AA is voluntary mantenance. Would we expect chemotherapy for an ingrown toenail? Amputation for an ear ache? Psychiatry for a bladder infection? Hardly - different treatments for different diseases is the obvious answer to this ridiculous point. You claimed it, now prove it. Seems (I know) you can't. Ditto above? Hmm... compelling, thought provoking. I think you have just found a new a low in debating techniques. And right here you prove you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The powerlessness is over alcohol, not the rest of our lives. Responsibility, self improvement, justice, integrity and honesty (there are more) are the types of values that are encouraged/suggested as part of the program of recovery. So in summary You don't know what you are talking about. You make up lies, then either - ask others to find the proof for themselves and/or; - refer them to a one-mans-cruisade-against-AA website as evidence of what AA does, rather than provide actual 'source-evidence'. And either way, your lies remain unsupported. Noted. And yes, now I am calling you a liar, of the unmitigated kind The laughing dog is being readied for your future posts. |
1st August 2010, 06:04 PM | #448 |
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What part of 'powerless over alcohol & that our lives had become unmanageable' do you not understand AAAlfie?
It seems clear from your posts you don't understand the 'unmanageable' part, as that clearly doesn't refer to alcohol. From my personal attendance at 1000's of AA meetings over the years, as well as intensive study of core & archival AA material, I would say a significant majority of AA members sober 1 year or more (you know - the successful ones?) understand the 1st step to refer to much more than just alcohol - in fact, a solid majority understand it just the way Bill (actually, Shoemaker - though I don't expect you to know that, as there appears an awlful lot you dont' know about AA. This isn't surprising), their sponsors, and the group intended it. I won't even bother attempting to teach you a bit about the steps, as I would suppose my running step study meetings & conferences for nearly a decade all over the country - by local & regional requests - wouldn't meet your need for me to be 'qualified'. As for the rest of your post - no change from your previous ones. Bare assertions, half-truths, attacks on posters here, and lies. Par for the course from cult members of any kind. Whatever program you are practicing, if it works for you - go for it. But it's not AA. |
1st August 2010, 06:37 PM | #449 |
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Clearly you and I have differing unsderstandings: I too 'teach' the 12 and 12 (formally and informally), I too have done thousands and thousand of meetings,12 and 12 studies and read lots of literature (internal and external). The difference between you and me is you seem to really hate AA, (yet you still go) and I love AA including its failings. Today I haven't had a drink, and today you haven't (presumably). Qayak is a liar. You and I differ in opinions. AA can be done anyway one likes, you seem to think you are somehow unique that you reject religion and don't therefor do AA. Good for you. However I can assure you that you are not unique. But the bottom line is, if it works for you, it works. And you keep going back! |
2nd August 2010, 02:41 AM | #450 |
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But this is just you playing with words. It's obvious what the intent of the term "higher power" as it relates to AA originally was. And it continues to be so. That individuals can "cheat" and place their faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't change the fact that AA is a Christian organisation.
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2nd August 2010, 02:45 AM | #451 |
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2nd August 2010, 04:02 AM | #452 |
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Why then are atheists and agnostics like Tinyal accepted?
Why are Buddists? Jews? Moslems? Hindus? And any other we could care to name? Sure, it was born of some Christian beliefs, but its 'teachings' are that of sobriety. If it is indeed religious, what religion is it teaching when all these other believers and non-believers are equally included, welcomed and loved? So, what religion is it? And when answering that, tell me what religion in India, Pakistan, Nepal, South Africa, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Singapore, Vietnam, Solomon Islands? and on and on I could go. What religion is it? |
2nd August 2010, 04:53 AM | #453 |
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2nd August 2010, 04:58 AM | #454 |
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2nd August 2010, 05:11 AM | #455 |
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2nd August 2010, 05:21 AM | #456 |
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that would depend on the determination, now wouldn't?
Attendance at AA meetings and binge drinking may have a correlation, that does not imply causation. You show me the data and then we can decide if it is even a reasobaly high enough correlation But just saying "medical groups and experts " is an appeal to authority, show me the data. |
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2nd August 2010, 05:43 AM | #457 |
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2nd August 2010, 09:02 AM | #458 |
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2nd August 2010, 09:04 AM | #459 |
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2nd August 2010, 09:13 AM | #460 |
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2nd August 2010, 09:14 AM | #461 |
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Because religious people tend to see more in common with other woo-woos than they do with those who don't believe. Look at the muslims for instance. Some passages in their books tell them to hate Jews and other non-mulsims, but to simply kill the atheists on sight. Lovely.
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2nd August 2010, 09:27 AM | #462 |
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I regret my snippy tone.
And, I agree I was reaching there, going for six for six. I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're making, but I do think that JREFers can be a little dismissive of testimony of people who know what they're talking about. So far, the most persuasive thing I've read has been the Vaillant study, in which a true believer's own statistics seem to show that AA isn't that effective. I'd like to see AA believers show what's wrong with that study. So far, (and I may have missed it), they haven't. I don't really have a pitbull in this fight, other than the fact that I don't join groups and don't respond well to group dynamics of any kind. Wherever three or more are gathered, I try not to be. I mean this both literally and figuratively. So, I tend to be biased against groups when thinking about things that might work for me. (This isn't an issue I need to face, nor does anyone I'm close to.) However, there are people here I respect who don't feel that way, such as Dancing David, and my wife. What I find interesting is that AA has a very good image--if you're talking about newspaper coverage, TV, and movies--and it may or may not be justified. |
2nd August 2010, 10:31 AM | #463 |
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2nd August 2010, 10:33 AM | #464 |
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2nd August 2010, 12:55 PM | #465 |
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Originally Posted by Belz...
Originally Posted by Belz...
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2nd August 2010, 05:26 PM | #466 |
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You and I might be on different pages here. I was talking about the acceptance at that level of the disease concept, not the binge drinking.
That's nice, but it doesnt answer the question as to what religion is being taught when all are welcome. Dodge noted Close, I cherish my sobriety as it was so hard to get. What sort of medals do you have? Dodge also noted. |
2nd August 2010, 05:28 PM | #467 |
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3rd August 2010, 02:52 AM | #468 |
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What does the best science of today say about treatment of behavioral disorders? I thought Cognitive Behavior Therapy was the generally accepted best treatment.
No sarcasm here at all, by the way. I'm genuinely curious about where addiction falls amongst other behavior disorders like OCD or phobias as far as treatment and etiology. |
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3rd August 2010, 02:58 AM | #469 |
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I'm curious as to where (in general terms) thread participants have been to AA meetings because there seems to be a vast difference between my experience and some of the experiences described.
I suppose it's no secret from my posts elsewhere on the forum that I live in Hawaii, so I'll just come right out and say it's where I've been to the vast majority of my 12-step meetings (mostly AA, some NA). I am quite aware that there are a handful of "bible thumper*" meetings out there but those are the exception in my experience. Part of this is certainly the choice of meetings I go to - so called "young persons" meetings, which are fairly culturally diverse, mostly religiously neutral (ie, explicitly agnostic, non church attending or vaguely nondenominational Christian-ish) Also, the only place I've ever run into a cold shoulder as far as different substances, is local NA. I've found NA here to be a bit standoffish with self-identified alcoholics (as opposed to addicts), with a superior (or is it inferior?) attitude of "everyone drinks, now crack/speed/meth is a _real_ addiction") * Entertainingly for me in the context of this thread, there's one meeting in particular that I've heard described as being "not real AA" because it's "too religious!" |
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3rd August 2010, 02:59 AM | #470 |
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3rd August 2010, 03:00 AM | #471 |
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3rd August 2010, 03:21 AM | #472 |
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3rd August 2010, 03:24 AM | #473 |
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I've been to AA and NA meetings in one of the three corners of the Liberal Triangle of San Francisco, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. You'd think they would be as secular as all get out eh! You'd think wrong. Again, the proof of religiosity is in the Steps themselves, no matter how people try to deny it, or ignore it. GB |
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3rd August 2010, 03:31 AM | #474 |
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No Cigar for you .
It's been pointed out time and again that the religious tenets (the 12 Steps) are Christian. The fact that some groups attempt to Universalize or New Ageize their particular branch of AA does little to hide this fact. The core teachings are still Theistic. And the "Central Office" of AA Officialdom is still unabashedly Christian. GB |
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3rd August 2010, 05:58 AM | #475 |
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Ah, okay, well so the statement of a select group choosing a nomenclature that does not meet the definition of disease still applies. It is a mental disorder, it does not have to involve withdrawal effects and therefore it is NOT a disease in the general sense. It is a behavioral disorder. Just because of bunch of people decide that it is also a spiritual disorder, in groups that think it is effective to call it a spiritual disorder does not mean that it is a spiritual disorder. It is a physical process as are ALL mental disorders AA Alfie, there is no dualistic separation from the mind and body, all minds are just brain processes. So it is not a disease. 1. Some people who are alcoholics do not have a biological predisposition of alcoholism (i.e. they are not Type II alcoholics). 2. Some people who are alcoholics do not have physical withdrawal symptoms. Therefore it is not a disease, it is a behavioral disorder like all addictions using a substance that in some cases will cause a physical withdrawal syndrome. It is less of a disease that schizophrenia. |
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3rd August 2010, 06:02 AM | #476 |
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It can, but again longitudinal studies are expensive. The relapse prevention model is a loose CBT model.
There is less of a 'broken process' that is common to addiction that there is in OCD and some anxieties. the formations of 'biological predipositions' to alcohol addictions are being studied, but are not really mapped out. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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3rd August 2010, 06:03 AM | #477 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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3rd August 2010, 06:13 AM | #478 |
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If you say so. But in the meantime and until otherwise stipulated, I will stick with what the actual authorities have to say (as evidenced in previous posts).
Ultimately who gives a damn what it is. People are sick and dying out there and their loved ones suffer greatly to boot. Assistance needs to be given; and discussing the ins and outs of the rats bum on these issues does nothing for those that do suffer directly and indirectly. Not that many will care but, for mine, the disease concept is just fine; AA is not religious (as any religion can play) but is has a spiritual element if one cares to take it up; AA has suggested steps and the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking; AA helps some but not all. And until we find some actual 'cure' for it we need to throw as many possibilities out there as we can. So talking on the internet about this achieves nothing, and ultimately I am not going to change the minds already made up, nor you mine. I will continue to help the suffering alcoholic, addict and their loved ones however I can, sometimes that is 12 step-type work, sometimes counselling, sometimes detox and rehab, sometimes financial assistance and sometimes lkife skills training. What are you guys doing? |
3rd August 2010, 07:43 AM | #479 |
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Many churches, too, allow non-believers in, in part because Christianity is a welcoming, open religon, and in part because they're hoping for converts.
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3rd August 2010, 10:39 AM | #480 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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