|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
18th August 2010, 03:29 AM | #601 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
Let's say you are facing one way, then you turn 180 degrees,now you are going completely the opposite way. That would be "exactly wrong".
Whilst in the grips of active alcoholism, one already feels worthless. Recovery and AA does everything to remove that sense of worthlessness and replace it with healthy self-esteem. You might be right that alcoholism and Christianity result in you seeing yourself as worthless; it's certainly true for the practising alky, I couldn't comment on the practising Christian however. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what AA does for the alcoholic, this might explain your mistrust, scepticism (whatever you want to call it). To summarise, the program raises one from self-loathing and false ego to a place of self love and healthy self-esteem. |
18th August 2010, 08:45 AM | #602 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,330
|
As an answer to the question I asked -- "Is the mere mention of God sufficient to render something entirely religious in nature"? -- I guess I'll take that as a "no".
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't believe in "God's Grace", but I do think there can be something powerful and very healing in letting another human being see into those places we usually keep hidden, and talking about those things we usually don't like to talk about. Especially if you've got your head on straight enough to permit you to make wise choices about whom you can trust (and also if you don't find the experience so rewarding that you experience a need to do it all the time; I've seen that happen, and it can be nauseating to watch). |
18th August 2010, 09:08 AM | #603 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
18th August 2010, 02:21 PM | #604 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
|
|
18th August 2010, 06:06 PM | #605 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
Knock yourself out. Never mind that your premise is unfounded.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Is a Christian Youth Group a Sect? How about a Christian Lobbyist Group? Or a Christian School? If those organizations fit YOUR definition of "sect", I have to wonder what dictionary your looking in.
Quote:
Quote:
How dishonest can you get? Now you know why I prefer not to argue from anecdote.
Quote:
Quote:
But as is apparent from the actual wording of the Steps, very little care was taken to allow for those for whom it doesn't work. Yes, it is true that in some local chapters, some words are changed in an attempt to remove the "God stuff" to achieve more Universalism and/or Secularism, but that can't hide the fact that the Steps are still inherently the same Protestant Steps disguised to placate non-Christians. Nor does it change the fact that the Official Website of the Parent Organization posts the Original Protestant 12 Steps on their website.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
One can get this from a wholly secular non-12 Step program (say, Rational Recovery for example), or from a trusted friend, psychiatrist, or counselor. If this is the key, the Religious 12 Step program is not only unnecessary for Non-Christians, it can actually be detrimental to them, pushing people away who really do need help. GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
18th August 2010, 11:41 PM | #606 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,330
|
Yet they went out of their way to invent awkward phrases like "A power greater than ourselves" and "God as we understood him". You are of course free to continue to assume that every time anyone uses the word "God" they are referring to the God of the Protestants. You'll be wrong quite often, especially if the ones using that word are AA members, but it's your choice.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
19th August 2010, 12:54 AM | #607 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
What's so "awkward" about "a power greater than ourselves"? Standard stuff for a religious viewpoint. "God as we understood Him" isn't awkward either, but it is a weaselly (and poor) attempt to camouflage the obvious reference to a Male Deity.
Quote:
Quote:
And again, it's not a "default" when it was the original intent of the founders of AA, and continues to be a huge part of the official literature.
Quote:
Quote:
The continuous references to God as "Him" hardly paint a Universalist picture. And the fact that Christianity borrowed from other Religions doesn't make it any less Religious, no matter how much you and other AA members try to put a Universalist Spin on it. This is why it is a Red Herring.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If AA isn't for people that need help, then what IS the actual agenda? GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
19th August 2010, 03:03 AM | #608 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
19th August 2010, 07:59 AM | #609 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,330
|
Eight syllables where one would do, if what you assert were valid; and inexplicably vague where specificity counts big. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is an important precept in Christianity. Implicit in that is that other gods do exist, and to allow or even encourage the individual to pick and choose among them -- or invent new ones, or pick anything he likes and call it his "higher power" (aka "God") -- is impossible for me to resolve with any form of Christianity I'm familiar with. I don't think even Unitarians would go that far.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
19th August 2010, 08:22 AM | #610 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
|
|
19th August 2010, 12:14 PM | #611 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
What does this have to do with anything ? You seem to have a nice predilection for irrelevancy.
You asked a question. I answered. I'm interested in the subject because things interest me. And no, I'm not a professor in psychology at Yale who's written ten volumes on AA. So what ? Have an UNpleasant life, will you ? Oh, you've already started. |
19th August 2010, 01:50 PM | #612 |
Meandering fecklessly
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,428
|
Belz said "And abdicating any form of responsibility to a higher power..." (emphasis mine) it was only to that point I was responding. As I said previously, when it comes to AA being religious, I agree with you. More so than I at first thought, for I never read much of Bill's thoughts and history that he wrote in later years. Also, anecdotally, I chair an AA Grapevine meeting once a week, and every week I am hard-pressed to find stories which do not have some sort of emphasis on God and all the rest of that crap. It's not bad, per se. It just gets tiresome to me. I think it's time for me to find a new group to go to. |
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
|
19th August 2010, 02:11 PM | #613 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
|
|
19th August 2010, 02:14 PM | #614 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
Dymanic, your penchant for decontextualizing my points by posting truncated snippets is becoming more and more pervasive. I have at least done you the courtesy of quoting your arguments in their entirety, and arguing against what I see as the context of your arguments.
If the only way you can debate, is by creating Straw Men out of snippets, then your arguments have little merit. But you do deserve some credit for actually engaging, unlike AAAlfie who would rather stick his fingers in his ears and go "lalalalala". You claim I am just misunderstanding you and AA, and maybe that is the case. But until you and others acknowledge that AA's religious language, tenets, and propaganda invite such "misunderstandings", I will continue to suspect that this is just because you and AA change the rules of debate at your convenience. GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
19th August 2010, 02:24 PM | #615 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
|
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
19th August 2010, 04:37 PM | #616 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
19th August 2010, 06:19 PM | #617 |
Meandering fecklessly
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,428
|
|
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
|
19th August 2010, 08:19 PM | #618 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
I don't like any "one size fits all" approach. And I don't like "zero tolerance" policies. The best thing about RR is that there's no "God-Stuff".
Part of my problem with a lot of Recovery Organizations, is that I think the whole environment has been "corrupted" by the puritan influence of religious temperance movements and their off-shoots like AA. Society has become so paranoid about "addiction" that it shapes the whole debate and fuels the Drug War. So I don't just question AA because it's religious; I question the whole Anti-Addiction "Industry" because I think it is based on a lot of varying questionable assumptions that all seem rooted in the questionable assumption that "habitual" use of "drugs" is always wrong, even when ostensibly medically necessary. This has made doctors increasingly paranoid about being prosecuted, and thus they often don't treat chronic pain patients with enough pain-killers to be effective. This has been enumerated by a Chronic pain Specialist I heard on NPR (and anecdotally, by my own doctor when she explained why she couldn't prescribe me enough to control my own chronic pain problems. And my protestations about the situation fell on deaf airs in NA meetings when family members pushed me to try to "kick the habit"). The whole Addiction Ideology also affects the arbitrary drug schedule classifications of rather innocuous, and potentially beneficial, "drugs" like marijuana. The Commercial imperative of Big Pharma is also a major contributor to the current addiction ideology, as they make a fortune getting people legally hooked on THEIR drugs. So AA and Puritanism isn't the only "bad guy" in this propaganda picture. But Puritanism seems to be the primary motivator behind Addiction Ideology, and I think a great case can be made that this is due to the internalization of Protestant ideas in society at large, to the point where they don't even seem religious at all. So whether Recovery Groups posit a Sin/Disease Model as does AA, or a Behavioural Disorder Model of Addiction as does RR, they still subscribe to the notion that all habitual use of "drugs" is always wrong, and that negative outcomes are always the fault of the user rather than occasionally the negative attitudes, and laws of society. [/rant] Do some people need help with really serious abuse problems? Of course they do. But as Dr Nora Volkow--director of NIDA--points out, recovery groups like AA might be helpful for some people, however they are by no means effective for all people. GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
19th August 2010, 09:01 PM | #619 |
Botanical Jedi
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,121
|
What is the definition of "self-esteem" that AA proponents are using? Seems to me that self-esteem means having confidence in yourself and your abilities. Surrendering your decision making process to a "higher power" seems somewhat incongruent with this idea...
Having been to a few NA meetings in my time, I can only speak for that organisation in Australia. (very different from the apparent scientology run version in the 'States) But sitting around and speaking about how powerless you are to resist using alcohol or drugs never seemed like something that would encourage self esteem. |
19th August 2010, 10:56 PM | #620 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,330
|
There's no doubt that every one of your posts is so fascinating and insightful as to be completely deserving of a full line-by-line response -- but the thing is, I just don't always have time for that. I take what stands out for me and I respond to that. This forum's quote feature includes a button that makes it trivially easy for anyone interested to reference the original post, and a practice I personally find discourteous is clogging up the page with multiple quotes of the same lengthy post just to make a brief comment. If I've ignored something you feel is important, or if you feel that I've "decontextualized" one of your points, you are always free to specify where and how. Slinging general accusations is a pretty cheap substitute for making that effort.
|
19th August 2010, 11:27 PM | #621 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
|
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
20th August 2010, 12:23 AM | #622 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
I would imagine that your definition of self esteem is the same as an AA members'.
I don't think that anywhere is it said that one "surrenders their decision making process" to anyone or anything. I think what you are referring to is where in the suggested steps it says "to hand ones life and will over to the care of god as we understood him". Here I would ask, "what is your understanding of god?", as the answer to your question depends on the answer to mine. I know that sounds a bit evasive and I honestly don't mean it to be. The fact is that if you are a deist and (for example) believe in a Christian God, then the answer will/can be one thing. If you are a non-deist and believe in (say) the laws of nature as a HP, then the answer might be rather different. This step in basic terms about relinquishing the need to control everyone and everything around us. We did that in our drinking and that self will and our best judgement ended up as us being practicing alcoholics. Our lone courage and self determination failed us time and again. We had what we call "self will run riot", and it failed to serve us. In this step the alcoholic gives up the need to do it alone and they now reach out and ask for help - something that most of us in the past found very difficult. We must stop being the centre of the universe and realise that there are other things, beings, whatever out there. This step is about faith - whether that be spiritual, religious, in other humans, whatever. So, what is your higher power? |
20th August 2010, 11:42 AM | #623 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
|
I'm sure you believe you are right.
Quote:
Alcoholics I've known use their best cognitive abilities to justify their drinking behaviors. Some eventually use those same facilities to realize they have a problem they don't seem capable of solving on their own, likely having tried to do so for years.
Quote:
|
20th August 2010, 11:55 AM | #624 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,330
|
Genuine confidence in your real self and your real abilities, though. Try to be something you're not, and unless "trying" means being willing to do whatever work is involved in becoming that, you'll surely fail. If you go for the next best thing and pretend to be something you're not -- and your masquerade succeeds -- what have you got? Lie on a job application and what you get is a job you're not qualified for. Create a persona so as to win the favor of an attractive member of the opposite sex (or whatever, as the case may be) and what you get is a relationship lacking true intimacy because you can't reveal your genuine self to that person without running the risk that they'll bolt. Convince yourself that you're something you're not, and what you get is deep inner conflict.
Having said all that, I want to temper it a little. To some extent, we do define ourselves and redefine ourselves on an ongoing basis, and not necessarily always on an entirely factual basis, and there probably is no clearly indentifiable point at which it ceases to be a healthy manifestation of creative flexibility and begins to be a destructive and pathological manifestation of fundamental dishonesty. What I do know is that a key insight for me was that I'd been using arrogance as a substitute for self esteem. I was an egomaniac with an inferiority complex. I was overcompensating for what I perceived, on some level, to be my own "defects of character", though I was not familiar with that terminology. On closer examination, and with some guidance from AA members and literature, it turned out that a lot of what was going on was that grandiose notions about my own abilities -- that is, an overestimation of my good qualities, ironically -- had inspired me to set impossible standards for myself, and I was as brutally hard on myself when I failed to meet them as I was on those whom I felt ought to be doing more to help me meet them. I'm still not immune to that. Left to its own devices, my head has a tendency to inflate itself. Keeping it down to its proper size requires constant vigilance. I don't claim to be successful at this all of the time. But conflating that effort and its results with the notion of "sin" being overcome by "grace" seems laughable to me. I see nothing that demands so exotic an explanation. |
20th August 2010, 12:12 PM | #625 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
20th August 2010, 12:35 PM | #626 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
|
|
20th August 2010, 01:23 PM | #627 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
AAAlfie,
Would you at least agree that AA is not not-religious? That is, if I were a believer in God, I would have no problem with the doctrine? This is one way to measure religiosity. Ask the religious and the non-religious their opinion. |
20th August 2010, 02:18 PM | #628 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
Gee, it seems to me like you've got some attitude problem. I'm having a discussion with adults, here. If you can't behave, perhaps your parents should take your toy computer away.
Or alternativey, you can explain how me not being an alcoholic disqualifies me as a participant to this thread. I won't be holding my breath. Your last post shows how far you're willing to go to appear clever. |
20th August 2010, 02:47 PM | #629 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
The only trouble with framing the question that way Marplots, is that while most religious people (believers in God) would recognize that AA is clearly religious (promoting a belief in God), they might not necessarily agree with the particular doctrines espoused.
But you're aiming the right direction, as most God believers would have less problem with being in a God promoting support group than being in one which is not. GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
20th August 2010, 02:49 PM | #630 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
|
I suppose you think that was an adult comment?
Quote:
I do again direct your attention to Rational Recovery being purported by some as an atheist alternative to AA.
Quote:
Your actual concern remains unclear to me. |
20th August 2010, 03:08 PM | #631 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
It's not unfair if it's true (which it is), and clearly many Alcoholic Atheists and Agnostics DO have a problem with being in such a clearly religious organization, or they wouldn't have bothered to start up non-religious support groups and recovery programs (though it's my contention that many of the secular programs are still operating with an assumption based on a religious value judgment).
As has been pointed time and again on this thread, a religious support group like AA might be beneficial for the religiously inclined, but is more likely to be detrimental to those who are not. There is nothing wrong with dissuading people from participating in a program that is less likely to be helpful (and possibly detrimental) to them than another program. Part of the problem is that because AA got in the game early and promoted the 12 Steps as the Gold Standard for Recovery Programs, they are often the only game in town in many communities, and the default organization that the Judicial system forces people into. GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
20th August 2010, 04:10 PM | #632 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
|
A point you've argued, and perhaps convinced some; that does not a 'fact' make.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
20th August 2010, 05:17 PM | #633 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
Unfortunately for your arguments, AA's official literature proves otherwise.
And really, the onus is on you and others arguing your point to prove the reverse, which frankly is impossible given the official literature and decades of history.
Quote:
But I would recommend finding a therapist for those in that situation who just can't get past the "God Stuff". Insofar as RR may be charging for access to their program, you seem to have a fair point also, which is another reason for me to knock them too. But I think I'll take your blanket statement with at least a few grains of salt. GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
20th August 2010, 05:27 PM | #634 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
I have said many times in the thread:
AA is religious if you want it to be. AA is not religious if you want it to be. There is no requirement to conform to a particular god. And if it is religious, why do atheists and deists alike thrive and recover? I have done plenty of stepwork with atheist alcoholics and in some cases we simply ignore the God aspect or modify it to fit the need. As I asked someone earlier, "What is your higher power?" Whether you have one, want one, or don't, there is a lot in the program to assist with recovery. I do not entirely agree however that it is a way to measure religiosity. Most western civilisations and laws are based around christian teachings, that does not in itself make them religious. Can anyone explain to me (us) how these other groups work financially? And (for perhaps the tenth time) what sort of statistics they have on their success. Quite. I have seen atheist alcoholics find god - they are what we might - in broader society - term born again christians, and get quality recovery. Also, I have seen agnostic and atheist alcoholics reject the god concept, do their stepwork and get quality recovery. I have seen Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Witches and Wiccans get quality recovery side-by-side. Gays and straights, men and women and political enemies get quality recovery with a god of their understanding. We seem to forget in the mix here that a god of one's understanding can also be no god at all. I have seen many reject AA because of their ignorant and closed mind biases (like Gandolf's Beard and others seem to) and miss the opportunity to live a sober and wonderful life. We like to call this "contempt prior to investigation". Actually, perhaps more accurately it is "confirmation bias" and the word God brings up emotions and judgements of hatred, rage and suspicion - sadly they miss the full and true concept of AAs primary purpose: "to assist the suffering alcoholic" and to remain sober ourselves. There is no requirement to conform to anything - the steps are "recommended" as "Bill saw it", and "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking". |
20th August 2010, 05:38 PM | #635 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
|
The only close-minded and ignorant person on this entire thread is YOU AAAlfie. YOU are the one to put people on the ignore list when they have an argument you can't refute with your sophistry.
Even though I have strong disagreements with others on this thread, we have all been open-minded enough to engage each other and examine each others arguments. GB |
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan |
|
21st August 2010, 03:54 AM | #636 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
I thought it was simplistic enough so you could understand. But if you want to keep playing with the rest of us you'll have to behave.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
21st August 2010, 04:17 AM | #637 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
Wrong (yet) again.
Please review previous posts to garner a full understanding of why your statements are incorrect. I would too if it were in fact religious. Please explain which religion is being taught and how atheists agnostics and everyone else can get sober together? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Go back and review. You clearly haven't read and/or understood a word written. Even if that were true, why/how is it "harmful"? |
21st August 2010, 08:39 AM | #638 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
|
Hi Cheri T, the response when I tried to point out the error of the disease model was that:
1. It is a focus of medical treatment. 2. therefore it is a disease. I tried to point out that it is a behavioral disorder that may or may not have a biological predisposition and may or may not have physical withdrawal syndromes. The issue as i see it as "You have to choose not to use.", the rest is window dressing. Welcome to the Forum! |
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
|
21st August 2010, 08:42 AM | #639 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
|
Um, not really, I am familiar with the steps and they are NOT a new set of coping skills, they are vague spiritual windows dressing. Real coping skills are not that vague of oooey gooey!
If you tried to teach those as 'life skills' that would be a dismal failure. I mentioned some of the parts of relaspse prevention planning. "Made a decision to turn out life over to god." is not very helpful. The only step is the simple one: Choose not to use. |
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
|
21st August 2010, 08:53 AM | #640 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
|
And what are the first seven, a bunch of moralizing and wallowing in self examination. An inventory is useless.
Quote:
Quote:
they can walk away after the first drink. they just choose not to do so. And that is just part of the problem, you can't control the amount you use, but you can always CHOOSE to stop. Any time, even after the first drink. Now if you drink so much you are in a state of automatic inebriation, that may be harder IE blackout. Now why do I say this, I live with OCD, I do not HAVE to engage in a compulsion, why do I engage in a compulsion? To avoid a panic attack. I can CHOOSE not to engage in a compulsive behavior, the consequence is a panic attack. And then I can practice coping with it. Addicts can CHOOSE to stop their use after one exposure, they just don't choose to do so. It is easier to choose to not use before you start but you can ALWAYS CHOOSE TO STOP and walk away.
Quote:
Um 'fearless personal inventory' is so vague as to be useless! How about: 1. take accountability for our choices. 2. develop a behavioral plan to modify our behavior. The inventory is a bunch of pseudo-freudian twaddle. |
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|