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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 21st August 2010, 08:58 AM   #641
Belz...
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Go back and review. You clearly haven't read and/or understood a word written.
Such a sweeping statement! And you're a skeptic ?

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Please explain which religion is being taught and how atheists agnostics and everyone else can get sober together?
Nonsensical sentence. I also never said that a religion was being taught. Perhaps you're the one who hasn't read and/or understood a word written.

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Even if that were true, why/how is it "harmful"?
Because it teaches you that without God you can't do squat.
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Old 21st August 2010, 10:44 AM   #642
AlBell
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
And what are the first seven, a bunch of moralizing and wallowing in self examination. An inventory is useless.

then they should cut the ******** and just say so.

And all other choices except to drink. They can still CHOOSE to walk away! That is something addicts don't want to admit.

they can walk away after the first drink.

they just choose not to do so.

And that is just part of the problem, you can't control the amount you use, but you can always CHOOSE to stop. Any time, even after the first drink.

Now if you drink so much you are in a state of automatic inebriation, that may be harder IE blackout.

Now why do I say this, I live with OCD, I do not HAVE to engage in a compulsion, why do I engage in a compulsion? To avoid a panic attack.

I can CHOOSE not to engage in a compulsive behavior, the consequence is a panic attack.
And then I can practice coping with it.
Addicts can CHOOSE to stop their use after one exposure, they just don't choose to do so.

It is easier to choose to not use before you start but you can ALWAYS CHOOSE TO STOP and walk away.


The twelve steps won't teach you how to swim.

Um 'fearless personal inventory' is so vague as to be useless!
Nice rant on topic you don't appear to have much first-hand knowledge of. Group behavior and individual behavior have different dynamics, sfaik.

Quote:
How about:
1. take accountability for our choices.
2. develop a behavioral plan to modify our behavior.
That's basically what attending AA meetings helps one accomplish ... or it does for some. At least three posters in this thread can attest to that; of course the bottom line is 'what must I do to not drink'.

Quote:
The inventory is a bunch of pseudo-freudian twaddle.
How much would a behaviorist charge to mentor/teach modification techniques, how long might that training be expected to last, and how effective has that been working with alcoholics?

Stats measuring 'successful outcome' (whatever that is in this case) for that technique might be better than stats for AA.

For example:
http://adam.about.com/reports/000056_7.htm

You pays your money and takes your choice. I suspect CBT costs hundreds of times more than AA meeting attendance.

Last edited by AlBell; 21st August 2010 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 21st August 2010, 12:02 PM   #643
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With all due respect Dancing David, I think a lot of people with major substance abuse issues can't always "choose not to use" (not through any fault of their own).

Though clearly, many other people can still make choices (but to the extent to which they can make a choice it's not clear to me that such people actually need to stop "using" their drug of choice). It's the people that aren't able to effect change in their lives and are engaging in life-threatening behaviours that need the most help.

And I think this is why almost NO form of therapy currently available is particularly effective (though studies of breaking addiction patterns with psychotropics hold some promise, but these are unfortunately frowned upon in the current political climate). And this is why any program with a "one size fits all" approach is doomed to abysmal recovery rates.

I think that we will eventually find that most effective is treating the underlying problems that cause people to fall into heavy abuse patterns (Schizophrenia, Depression, Anxiety, OCD, Chronic and Severe Pain, Genetic predisposition to addictive behaviour patterns, coping with personal Financial Problems, coping with abuse, coping with living in an oppressed population group, coping with living in a highly demanding society that forces most people to work for less and less and being put out of work and out of house by Fat Cats who control and destroy economies, coping with living in a War Zone...etc, etc.). In some of these cases, helping people to USE drugs more effectively, might actually be better than helping them to stop using.

So I think a lot of recovery approaches are "twaddle", from AA to RR, though each may hold some benefit for a few people respectively. But at issue is the religiosity of AA, which is undeniable.

The link AlBell provided is very clear that AA has a "Spiritual" component, which is just a nice way of saying Religious component.

And basically AlBell, AAAlfie and others, if the "God Stuff" is unnecessary, then why continue to OFFICIALLY keep it as part of the program? You and AA are begging the question of why it's even in the program at all. Why not just have a 4 Step program?

GB

PS: It's about time society got of its moral high horse regarding the habitual use of drugs
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Old 21st August 2010, 12:34 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
The link AlBell provided is very clear that AA has a "Spiritual" component, which is just a nice way of saying Religious component.
I at least don't agree that "Spiritual" = "Religious". Nor does AA as I understand the program.

Even an atheist through contemplation and meditation may find an immanent or transcendent nature of reality that is not religious, although religions may be based on humans attempting to describe those experiences.

Quote:
And basically AlBell, AAAlfie and others, if the "God Stuff" is unnecessary, then why continue to OFFICIALLY keep it as part of the program? You and AA are begging the question of why it's even in the program at all. Why not just have a 4 Step program?
My comment explains "why".

Last edited by AlBell; 21st August 2010 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 21st August 2010, 12:47 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
I at least don't agree that "Spiritual" = "Religious". Nor does AA as I understand the program.

Even an atheist through contemplation and meditation may find an immanent or transcendent nature of reality that is not religious, although religions may be based on humans attempting to describe those experiences.


My comment explains "why".
In the case of AA, Spiritual does = Religious. The constant references to "God" and "Him" are very specifically Religious.

But I concur that a Non-theist can still contemplate transcendence without being religious (as I do myself). However, I know the difference between Empirical Knowledge and "Spiritual" Knowledge. One is Falsifiable (and secular), and the other is Not.

And NO, your comment doesn't even begin to explain "why".

GB
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Old 21st August 2010, 01:12 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
In the case of AA, Spiritual does = Religious. The constant references to "God" and "Him" are very specifically Religious.

But I concur that a Non-theist can still contemplate transcendence without being religious (as I do myself). However, I know the difference between Empirical Knowledge and "Spiritual" Knowledge. One is Falsifiable (and secular), and the other is Not.

And NO, your comment doesn't even begin to explain "why".

GB
At this point we can agree to disagree. You will not change my mind, nor me yours.

TTFN.
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Old 21st August 2010, 01:23 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
Nice rant on topic you don't appear to have much first-hand knowledge of. Group behavior and individual behavior have different dynamics, sfaik.
And what do you know of my personal history? Individual behavior is what I was talking about.
Zero apparently.
Quote:


That's basically what attending AA meetings helps one accomplish ... or it does for some. At least three posters in this thread can attest to that; of course the bottom line is 'what must I do to not drink'.
Yup and the steps are superfluous. If you read what I said early in the thread , I said I like DFD groups.
Quote:


How much would a behaviorist charge to mentor/teach modification techniques, how long might that training be expected to last, and how effective has that been working with alcoholics?
I said you have to choose not to use, did I not. the problem is that most people don't try.
Quote:

Stats measuring 'successful outcome' (whatever that is in this case) for that technique might be better than stats for AA.

For example:
http://adam.about.com/reports/000056_7.htm

You pays your money and takes your choice. I suspect CBT costs hundreds of times more than AA meeting attendance.
I never said CBT, did I.

Nope if you read what I posted early in the thread I said something else was what I preferred. A relapse prevention model.
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Old 21st August 2010, 01:30 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
With all due respect Dancing David, I think a lot of people with major substance abuse issues can't always "choose not to use" (not through any fault of their own).
having known many addicts, I believe that they can, except when they are sooooo intoxicated they are in a black out. They can choose not to use, but they choose otherwise.
It is harder but not impossible , once intoxicated.
What people forget is the huge number of choices people take to use and continue use.
Quote:
Though clearly, many other people can still make choices (but to the extent to which they can make a choice it's not clear to me that such people actually need to stop "using" their drug of choice). It's the people that aren't able to effect change in their lives and are engaging in life-threatening behaviours that need the most help.
And having talked to many of them, I believe that they do choose to use, they rationalize it, they usually don't want to face the consequences of not using.
Quote:

And I think this is why almost NO form of therapy currently available is particularly effective (though studies of breaking addiction patterns with psychotropics hold some promise, but these are unfortunately frowned upon in the current political climate). And this is why any program with a "one size fits all" approach is doomed to abysmal recovery rates.
I agree.
Quote:

I think that we will eventually find that most effective is treating the underlying problems that cause people to fall into heavy abuse patterns (Schizophrenia, Depression, Anxiety, OCD, Chronic and Severe Pain, Genetic predisposition to addictive behaviour patterns, coping with personal Financial Problems, coping with abuse, coping with living in an oppressed population group, coping with living in a highly demanding society that forces most people to work for less and less and being put out of work and out of house by Fat Cats who control and destroy economies, coping with living in a War Zone...etc, etc.). In some of these cases, helping people to USE drugs more effectively, might actually be better than helping them to stop using.
I can't approve of use by addicts.
Quote:

So I think a lot of recovery approaches are "twaddle", from AA to RR, though each may hold some benefit for a few people respectively. But at issue is the religiosity of AA, which is undeniable.
You will note , having stated my opinion on particular members I am staying out of that one.

I think the 'sponser' system is a greater problem for AA.
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Old 21st August 2010, 03:00 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
It is easier to choose to not use before you start but you can ALWAYS CHOOSE TO STOP and walk away.
Thank you Nancy Reagan. Hey, this could surely be of great benefit to people trying to lose weight, too: "Tired of being fat? Just quit eating so damn much". Poof! Problem solved!

We don't need a program; all we need is a bumper sticker.
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Old 21st August 2010, 03:06 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
And basically AlBell, AAAlfie and others, if the "God Stuff" is unnecessary, then why continue to OFFICIALLY keep it as part of the program?
Next time I run into an AA official, I'll be sure to ask.
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Old 21st August 2010, 03:13 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Thank you Nancy Reagan. Hey, this could surely be of great benefit to people trying to lose weight, too: "Tired of being fat? Just quit eating so damn much". Poof! Problem solved!

We don't need a program; all we need is a bumper sticker.
I'm not sure that DD meant "Just say no," but that might be the logical inference from his point. If so, I find that position little different from most AAers (except their mantra is "Just say no with the help of God", hmmm...that probably was ACTUALLY what Nancy Reagan meant).

GB
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Old 21st August 2010, 03:25 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Next time I run into an AA official, I'll be sure to ask.
No need, just send 'em an email at the GSO of AA's official website:

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=1

GB
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Old 21st August 2010, 05:07 PM   #653
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Yikes!

I started this thread and had no idea it would go to 17 pages.

A few things:

Any meeting that ends with, "The Lord's Prayer" is religious. Period.

By the way, try telling any Irish Catholic that, "The Lord's Prayer" is not religious (as my husband's first counselor insisted.) There's a Catholic version and a Protestant version and we all know how well that played out in Belfast.

I also personally disagree with the AA mandate of "taking inventory." Telling a proper counselor your "confessions" is a voluntary action, more of a sharing process so that you can reach a healthier goal. And properly trained counselors are trained to listen, and won't be judgmental; instead, they will try to help you seek a different path towards your goal. There's no forced sense of confessing, which leads to shame and guilt.

I also find it appalling that coffee, sugar and donuts are provided at AA. Nutrition is key in quitting drinking. Alcohol is sugar. Sugar cravings can be relieved by eliminating sugar and all sugar substitutes (with the exception of Stevia.) Anyone quitting drinking should see a proper dietitian/nutritionist. It will help ENORMOUSLY.

Does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy cost more than AA? Yes. Would that it were free, as it should be. But it offers more practical methods of dealing with feelings. And most books by Dr. Albert Ellis, a leading authority on CBT, can be found for free at your local library.

My resentment at 12-step programs stems from the fact that they are held up as THE only way to quit, and they don't teach you how to think logically. Instead you get, "your best thinking got you here," and "put yourself in the hands of a higher power."

No, I won't put myself in the hands of a Higher Power. Not to deal with depression, not to lose weight, not to learn Spanish. I spent my whole youth doing that. It didn't work and I'm still trying to undue the damage done to my critical thinking skills.

Oh, and by the way, I don't drink. Used to. Stopped. Used to smoke cigarettes, too. Stopped. Used to eat sweets like they were going to be outlawed. Stopped that, too.

How? Lots of research, a change of diet and habits, and a terrific therapist. My insurance pays for my visits, except a copay of $10. A bargain for such an investment in mental health. (Just to give you a quick glimpse of his opinions, I once asked him what he thought about acupuncture. His reply? "I don't.")

My thanks to Gandalf's Beard and others who have made very concrete points and good arguments, far better than I ever could have. You are all teaching me valuable lessons in how to argue and debate.
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Old 21st August 2010, 05:43 PM   #654
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
Any meeting that ends with, "The Lord's Prayer" is religious. Period.
In a very general manner, I would agree; that is a religious meeting.
Presumably that meeting wishes to run that group with a religious backdrop. That does not mean that all meetings nor AA as a whole are religious.

Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
I also personally disagree with the AA mandate of "taking inventory." Telling a proper counselor your "confessions" is a voluntary action, more of a sharing process so that you can reach a healthier goal. And properly trained counselors are trained to listen, and won't be judgmental; instead, they will try to help you seek a different path towards your goal. There's no forced sense of confessing, which leads to shame and guilt.
The steps are "suggestions", if you don't want to do it, dont. By the way, if you do your stepwork and want to share it with a professional counsellor rather than a sponsor - go ahead, there is nothing that says you can't.
I have a friend who is a non deist, she did this step and then - get this - went to a catholic priest to share it. She said she felt she knew she could trust a preist with her inventory.

Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
I also find it appalling that coffee, sugar and donuts are provided at AA. Nutrition is key in quitting drinking. Alcohol is sugar. Sugar cravings can be relieved by eliminating sugar and all sugar substitutes (with the exception of Stevia.) Anyone quitting drinking should see a proper dietitian/nutritionist. It will help ENORMOUSLY.
I find it appalling that such things are placed on the supermarket shelves, but there you go.
Talk about trivial!

AA is concerned only with alcohol. If a member wishes to see sa nutritianist, they should go ahead and do so.

Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
Does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy cost more than AA? Yes. Would that it were free, as it should be. But it offers more practical methods of dealing with feelings. And most books by Dr. Albert Ellis, a leading authority on CBT, can be found for free at your local library.
I teach both (12 steps and CBT): horses for courses. If one doesn't work, try another. AA isn't for everyone and it wont work for everyone.

It would be unusual for an Alky to turn up to AA having not tried something else before it; in actual fact, most of us had tried everything before we went to AA: Priests, counsellors, dieticians, psychologists, psychiatrists, barmen, prostitutes, family firends, other self help groups etc. And nothing worked.

Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
My resentment at 12-step programs stems from the fact that they are held up as THE only way to quit, and they don't teach you how to think logically.
AA does not say AA is the "only way to quit"; individual members might say this.
And AA does exactly the opposite of what you claim - it does teach people how to think logically where once they didn't.

Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
No, I won't put myself in the hands of a Higher Power. Not to deal with depression, not to lose weight, not to learn Spanish. I spent my whole youth doing that. It didn't work and I'm still trying to undue the damage done to my critical thinking skills.
No-one has aslked you to do any of these things, and I am sure that AA hasn't either.

Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
Oh, and by the way, I don't drink. Used to. Stopped. Used to smoke cigarettes, too. Stopped. Used to eat sweets like they were going to be outlawed. Stopped that, too.
Am I to assume that because you managed this, that everyone can? If only it were that simple.

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Old 21st August 2010, 08:50 PM   #655
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I'd like to thank everyone who played in this thread.

I'm a freelance writer and have a contract to write for various addiction/alcoholic sites. This thread has been a gold mine of ideas for my sometimes topic-starved brain.

Thanks, all!
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Old 21st August 2010, 10:24 PM   #656
tourmaline
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Hey Alfie remember this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...60#post6170960
...?

That is what i was referring to on this thread when i posted this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...70#post6246770

I guess joking isn't allowed on JREF. I wonder how long this post will remain before The Thought Poli... I mean Moderators tear it down.

Now SHHH! everyone, be serious.
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Old 21st August 2010, 11:19 PM   #657
Hallo Alfie
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My bad Tourmaline. I'd forgotten that.
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Old 21st August 2010, 11:44 PM   #658
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no problem

Its just funny that something like that would get removed by moderators considering all the other carp that passes for discussion.
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Old 22nd August 2010, 12:29 AM   #659
Hallo Alfie
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Context?
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Old 22nd August 2010, 03:46 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
You will not change my mind, nor me yours.
What a great way to approach a debate.
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Old 22nd August 2010, 04:57 AM   #661
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because it teaches you that without God you can't do squat.
Putting to one side you incorrect assertion that AA "teaches you that without God you can't do squat", you haven't explained/shown just how is it harmful?
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Old 22nd August 2010, 05:43 AM   #662
Dancing David
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Thank you Nancy Reagan. Hey, this could surely be of great benefit to people trying to lose weight, too: "Tired of being fat? Just quit eating so damn much". Poof! Problem solved!

We don't need a program; all we need is a bumper sticker.
Excuse me, what reason are you talking like that? The fact that you have confused me with Nancy Regan does not speak well for your critical thinking skills.

You stated something I did not, now that is called 'putting words in my mouth".

You are a better poster than that.

Did say it was easy? Hmmm? Did I say anything like the Reganator's evil controller?
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Old 22nd August 2010, 06:02 AM   #663
Dancing David
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
I'm not sure that DD meant "Just say no," but that might be the logical inference from his point. If so, I find that position little different from most AAers (except their mantra is "Just say no with the help of God", hmmm...that probably was ACTUALLY what Nancy Reagan meant).

GB
An illogical reference not supported by the data available in this thread is Might be drawn. However it would be incorrect.

Now since some people are confused about who I am I will do this once.

My history
I am a recovering addict, I started my addiction at the age of sixteen, my primary addiction was to serotonergic hallucinogens, I had a secondary and long term addiction to marijuana, I also was often dependant of pseudo-ephedrine.

Unlike many people I have worked with addicts in both formal and informal settings. I was a mental health outreach case manager for 10 years working with people living with PSMI, I also was a PSR clinician for a year. I worked in a DV shelter for three years and was a crisis intervention counselor for a year and a half. I have worked with a huge number of addicts and people who are substance abusers, I have had many friends who are addicts and users as well.

I met ALL the criteria for substance dependence for both serotonergics and marijuana, except for the physical withdrawal symptoms. My primary addiction I changed the habit after 13 years, my secondary addiction resolved itself six months after that.

I never went to jail or was arrested but I came close, oh so many times.


Now here is what I feel is a short version of an effective plan, however I do not feel that it works for all people, nor do I believe that that there is ever a one size fits all program:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6&postcount=89

As stated earlier up thread I believe that AA as started/founded by Bill W. is a religious program, although many of it members are not, and as also stated I believe that AA has bigger problems than that. I also feel that it is an effective strategy for some people. Beating addiction is unfortunately not a six month one shot treatment, it is very much like DV, in that the issues that are involved are complex. So many people take a gradual step wise progression towards eventual health, many do not.

As stated I also like Jack Trimpey and rational recovery, the Big Choice is the language that I personally find helpful.
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Old 22nd August 2010, 09:46 AM   #664
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Yeah, that's why I said "might" DD.

You'll also note the little winky face , denoting a tongue firmly in cheek.

GB
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Old 22nd August 2010, 12:42 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
Yeah, that's why I said "might" DD.

You'll also note the little winky face , denoting a tongue firmly in cheek.

GB
Sorry, I should have
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Old 22nd August 2010, 02:16 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Excuse me, what reason are you talking like that?
I was just having a little fun with you there, DD. The whole idea behind the reductio ad absurdum argument makes it essentially indistinguishable from sarcasm. (I must, however, once again plead not guilty to the charge of invoking a straw man; if there's any significant difference between "You can always choose to stop" and "Just say no", you'll have to explain it, because they both seem to me not only equally trivial but essentially equivalent; at least roughly so.)

I don't actually disagree that stopping is ultimately a matter of choosing to stop. I just think there's so much more to it that the observation looks silly standing all by itself. I am, of course, among those who are familiar with your background from the many similar discussions here, and I believe we agree that just as stopping is arguably an ultimately simple if not easy matter, staying stopped is really the trick, and that's not always an entirely trivial exercise either. It's worth noting that AA's steps are completely silent on the subject of "how to stop drinking". The steps are about learning to live sober.

I've always liked to say that long before drugs and alcohol became a problem for me, they were a solution. It was only over time that the solution became a problem in itself. Eventually it quit working, either as a solution to the original problems or to the new problems which arose solely out of my near total reliance on that general, all-purpose solution, but that wasn't until after I had already tried to quit a number of times.

Every time, what had happened was that I became so unable to function either physically or mentally that I was unable to work or do any of what at that time passed for me fulfilling my responsibilities as a husband and parent. When the train was only moving at five or ten miles an hour, the choice of jumping off was relatively cheap, but now that it was doing seventy, I was so fully committed to the "better living through chemistry" approach that the consequences of opting out were now unacceptably high. My business would surely fail. I would surely lose my house. I had no idea what would happen to my family. I saw no choice but to carry on like I had been. When I finally did reach the point where I was unable to function either with or without drugs and alcohol, what I was left with was two choices: facing life on life's terms, or committing suicide. I came very close to selecting the second option. I had a specific plan, and had already begun the putting-your-affairs-in-order phase when I stumbled into AA.

I needed to know that I was not the first to experience this sort of thing (I suffered from the same "terminal uniqueness" that is, ironically, common to just about every alcoholic I've ever met). I needed to believe that there was a way out, and that I had the strength to find it, and that there were others who could help me find that strength. The concept of turning my will and my life over to a power greater than myself was no big stretch for me; I'd been doing it for years with drugs and alcohol (I wasn't feeling all that "great" anyway). I needed someone to point out that before I could once again be of any use to my family or anyone else I needed to take care of myself ("put on your own oxygen mask first", in emergency response parlance), and that until I did that, none of the other stuff was going to work out anyway. I needed permission to make sobriety my first priority, and I got that from the people in AA. It had nothing to do with invisible superbeings.

In the movie "Castaway", Tom Hanks' character invented Wilson and imparted to his new companion some of his own humanity. He wasn't actually losing his mind. He didn't really believe Wilson was alive. Being skilled, as we all are, at what Daniel Dennett calls "intuitive psychology", he recognized that the desperate nature of his situation dictated that he either play this trick on his mind or he would lose it.

I think that when a Christian gets down on his knees and prays for strength and guidance, what he is doing -- whether he knows it or not -- is making an appeal to his own inner strength and wisdom. The imaginary superbeing is a symbol. It may work. But the religion we call Christianity does not tell its adherents that God is a symbol; it goes to great lengths to persuade them that an all-powerful superbeing really does live in the sky.

What distinguishes AA from that is that AA says, essentially, "find a symbol that will work for you". It is -- at most -- a pointer to religion, and that only in the case of those for whom only religious symbols can work.
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Old 22nd August 2010, 02:48 PM   #667
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Foe mw it was not turning over my life, it was saying "I can't do that.", the person who is my firend, he can, she can they can. But I can't, if I use my life is harder, I will use rather than do other things that are more important.

So, I choose not to use.
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Old 22nd August 2010, 04:39 PM   #668
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
I needed to know that I was not the first to experience this sort of thing (I suffered from the same "terminal uniqueness" that is, ironically, common to just about every alcoholic I've ever met). I needed to believe that there was a way out, and that I had the strength to find it, and that there were others who could help me find that strength. The concept of turning my will and my life over to a power greater than myself was no big stretch for me; I'd been doing it for years with drugs and alcohol (I wasn't feeling all that "great" anyway). I needed someone to point out that before I could once again be of any use to my family or anyone else I needed to take care of myself ("put on your own oxygen mask first", in emergency response parlance), and that until I did that, none of the other stuff was going to work out anyway. I needed permission to make sobriety my first priority, and I got that from the people in AA. It had nothing to do with invisible superbeings.
I have highlighted this as I think it deserves and should be repeated.

I think you nail quite nicely the reason that a higher power is required, to replace the old one with something far more healthy. It matters not what 'form' it takes.

Quote:
I think that when a Christian gets down on his knees and prays for strength and guidance, what he is doing -- whether he knows it or not -- is making an appeal to his own inner strength and wisdom. The imaginary superbeing is a symbol. It may work. But the religion we call Christianity does not tell its adherents that God is a symbol; it goes to great lengths to persuade them that an all-powerful superbeing really does live in the sky.
I liked this too - personal positive affirmations are integral to success in anything.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 12:29 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I have highlighted this as I think it deserves and should be repeated.

I think you nail quite nicely the reason that a higher power is required, to replace the old one with something far more healthy. It matters not what 'form' it takes.
Paradoxically, it would seem that higher powers are negative influences 100% of the time.

Quote:
I liked this too - personal positive affirmations are integral to success in anything.
Quit being obtuse. AA tenets make it clear that a person must admit that they are powerless over alcohol. Your continued claims that one is empowered by AA's demand for a belief in a higher power is clearly countered by the facts.

AA demands that you turn your life over to a higher power and makes it clear that that higher power is god.

You remind me of believers who make majestic claims about the bible when in fact they have never read it and have no understanding of what it contains. Go read the Big Book and the rest of the AA literature.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 01:15 AM   #670
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Paradoxically, it would seem that higher powers are negative influences 100% of the time.
Maybe, Can you prove it?
At any rate, alcohol or our own self-will was usually the 'power' previously - now it has been replaced with something else.

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Quit being obtuse. AA tenets make it clear that a person must admit that they are powerless over alcohol. Your continued claims that one is empowered by AA's demand for a belief in a higher power is clearly countered by the facts.
What facts?
That the steps are suggested, that a higher power can be anything you want, there is no requirement for membership save for a desire to stop drinking? You mean those facts?

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
AA demands that you turn your life over to a higher power and makes it clear that that higher power is god.
Please show me where this "demand" takes place?
Then explain which god exactly?

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
You remind me of believers who make majestic claims about the bible when in fact they have never read it and have no understanding of what it contains. Go read the Big Book and the rest of the AA literature.
And you remind me of..... never mind.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 01:27 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I have highlighted this as I think it deserves and should be repeated.

I think you nail quite nicely the reason that a higher power is required, to replace the old one with something far more healthy. It matters not what 'form' it takes.



I liked this too - personal positive affirmations are integral to success in anything.
Dymanic's personal anecdote is not something that I really feel comfortable arguing against. He is simply explaining how he rationalized the material for himself. And insofar as he feels it helped him, I can only applaud his ability to "make it work" for him.

But it's a HUGE stretch for AAAlfie to then take that and say its the reason a Higher Power is required. If anything, Dymanic's personal anecdote indicates the OPPOSITE.

He didn't need a "Higher Power", he didn't need "God". He used a strength within himself he didn't know he had available until he looked for it. And the fact that Dymanic thinks Believers are unknowingly tapping into this inner strength when they pray, is a good argument AGAINST the religious stuff in AA.

So first we have the denial by AAAlfie of the explicitly religious aspect of AA when that is challenged, then the religious stuff is explicitly endorsed by him as being necessary.

Does anyone see how two-faced that is?

The whole "it doesn't matter what form the Higher Power is" stuff, is just Alfie's usual sophistry. If one is tapping into an inner strength then just call it THAT. No Wooish "Higher Power", Deity, or other agency outside oneself need be invoked. Which continues to beg the question of why all the "God Stuff" in AA.

Personal Affirmations, Norman Vincent Peale, The Power of Positive Thinking. I used to think there was something to that back in High School and my early College Years. Then I realized that it was just a magical way to avoid the often ugly truth of reality. It's not surprising that Mr Peale was also a Protestant and one of New Yorks most famous preachers.

I don't deny that positive thoughts can be beneficial in a VERY limited psychological sense, when one has something to be positive about. Then one can take that as a reason to keep working on all the crappy stuff. But far too often, the whole Power of Positive Thinking Claptrap is just Magical Thinking, believing that just by wishing hard enough you can make good things happen.

Well the only way to make "good things" happen, is to actively face up to the crappy things and try to fix them (one of the better Steps in AA when not contradicted by the turning your Will over to God's Will nonsense).

And again, I think this is a horrible misreading of Dymanic's quote:

Quote:
I think that when a Christian gets down on his knees and prays for strength and guidance, what he is doing -- whether he knows it or not -- is making an appeal to his own inner strength and wisdom. The imaginary superbeing is a symbol. It may work. But the religion we call Christianity does not tell its adherents that God is a symbol; it goes to great lengths to persuade them that an all-powerful superbeing really does live in the sky
As I pointed out, this is a great argument AGAINST the "God Stuff" in AA.

All that is necessary is: 1) a meditation to discover the Ugly Truth about yourself, and: 2) a Meditation to find the inner strength to overcome that Ugly Truth.

There, a 2 Step process without any God Stuff, or Power of Positive Thinking nonsense.

GB
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Old 23rd August 2010, 03:14 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Putting to one side you incorrect assertion that AA "teaches you that without God you can't do squat", you haven't explained/shown just how is it harmful?
Removing responsibility from people and putting it into the hands of invisible sky-daddies is inherently dangerous, wouldn't you agree ?

And I still don't understand why you deny that they DO say this, since it's been shown several times in this thread that they do.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 04:16 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Removing responsibility from people and putting it into the hands of invisible sky-daddies is inherently dangerous, wouldn't you agree ?
How?
btw, I don't think you said "remove responsibility" before, you said "seek help from".

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And I still don't understand why you deny that they DO say this, since it's been shown several times in this thread that they do.
And it has been repeatedly shown that they don't.
But you believe what you want. The proof of the pudding, is the pudding. And in this case, the pudding is all those for whom AA works with a higher power of their own understanding (in whatever form that takes - or doesn't).

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Old 23rd August 2010, 04:23 AM   #674
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
How?
Because then all actions you undertake, no matter how good or bad, aren't your fault.

Quote:
And it has been repeatedly shown that they don't.
Really ? Have you even read their litterature ?

Quote:
But you believe what you want.
No.

Quote:
And in this case, the pudding is all those for whom AA works with a higher power of their own understanding (in whatever form that takes - or doesn't).
"Higher power" can't be some principle. Those who think it can are deluding themselves. Principles are not higher powers.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 04:29 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because then all actions you undertake, no matter how good or bad, aren't your fault.
From simply "seeking help from"...

What absolute nonsense!
The whole point is about taking responsibility for yourself and actions.

Now, please explain what "harm"?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Really ? Have you even read their litterature ?
A bit more than you I'm guessing. Moreover, I have seen it work.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No.
So will you believe if you wont believe yourself?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Higher power" can't be some principle. Those who think it can are deluding themselves. Principles are not higher powers.
Sure they are.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 23rd August 2010 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 07:10 AM   #676
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
From simply "seeking help from"...
No, that was not the point of your question. You asked how delegating responsibility to a god was harmful.

Quote:
The whole point is about taking responsibility for yourself and actions.
Not from what they write. They specifically state that you have no control.

Quote:
Now, please explain what "harm"?
I just did.

Quote:
A bit more than you I'm guessing.
How cute.

Quote:
So will you believe if you wont believe yourself?
Gosh, you're thick. No, I don't believe what I WANT to believe.

Quote:
Sure they are.
Principles have no power. They are an invention. This entire semantics play with "higher power" is about as convincing as Intelligent Design's.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 07:40 AM   #677
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
At any rate, alcohol or our own self-will was usually the 'power' previously - now it has been replaced with something else.
Wait...

That would make sense if there actually was a god or other supernatural power that existed apart from one's own mind. You could use your own self-will to control your actions, or you could let this outside power control your actions for you.

But if AA isn't religious and the idea is that you're using your own mind to willfully create an imaginary "higher power" as a psychological trick to increase the strength of your own will-power, what are you replacing your own self-will with?
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Old 23rd August 2010, 08:25 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I think you nail quite nicely the reason that a higher power is required, to replace the old one with something far more healthy. It matters not what 'form' it takes.
Except for when substances are not a higher power , they are 'an unhealthy coping skill'. Thats seems to be a category error and overgeneralization above.

IE: All substance abuse involves subtance abuse as a higher power.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 09:07 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I think you nail quite nicely the reason that a higher power is required, to replace the old one with something far more healthy. It matters not what 'form' it takes.
I thought the only thing that was "required" was "a desire to stop drinking"?
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Old 23rd August 2010, 10:27 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
I thought the only thing that was "required" was "a desire to stop drinking"?
Oh that Alfie, always changing the rules of the debate to suit himself.

GB
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