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20th July 2010, 10:22 PM | #81 |
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20th July 2010, 10:32 PM | #82 |
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Dunstan;6143317](adjusted the emphasis)
Whether that is a "better" result depends on the goal, doesn't it? If you assume that the goal is abstinence, then it's unsurprising that AA would do better. But a "mere reduction in drinking" may be closer to the ideal for many people.
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I have also seen a fair number of people with drug/alcohol problems stop using by a number of different. Christianity, psychotherapy, doing it on your own after having some kind of 'eye opening' experience that shook them to the core. A.A. has saying, "People who don't go to meetings don't find out what happens to people who don't go to meetings." I have always played the Devil's Advocate and would say, "People who go to meetings don't find out what happens to people who don't go to meetings. Why, because they're sitting in a smoke filled room in a dark eddy of life while everybody is out there living it. Needless to say, that never went over very well. I mean, if we were comparing the success of "sex addiction treatments," would we say that Treatment X is "better" if it has a higher rate of getting people to abstain from all sex than Treatment Y which allows for healthy sexual relationships?[/quote] |
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20th July 2010, 10:32 PM | #83 |
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the only thing i'm recovering from is my catholic upbringing!
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20th July 2010, 10:39 PM | #84 |
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20th July 2010, 10:41 PM | #85 |
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21st July 2010, 04:25 AM | #86 |
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Trolling the internet looking for some answers into what I believe is spirituality, I found this article. I must say it encapsulates my feelings and beliefs pretty well, and perhaps it gives a little further insight into the way some of us approach and develop our own spirituality, whilst devoid of religion.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062000751.html
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21st July 2010, 04:44 AM | #87 |
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Great post, protestant values and the puritan values are a mess maker of guilt and shame in the US. I think that the other thing that is often stressed by women and others is that Bill W. and the other founders of AA were powerfull men, who were a part of the power brokers of their society. And that AA, even today is mainly a guy thing, dominated by male culture and mores. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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21st July 2010, 04:48 AM | #88 |
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Nah, one predates the other. AA has a huge store of little quotes and moral saysings.
My favorite, and it is supposedly a bulgarian proverb is: "If you wish to drown, do not torture yourself with shallow water." and while I went and blacked out the word god in many daily reader books, I also like 'Pray to god, but row to shore.' |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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21st July 2010, 04:59 AM | #89 |
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Oook, pllease don't drag the already defamed psychology for this.
Here is the relapse preention model in short, it works best in people who have abuse issues but can work with people who are dependant "If they work it!" ( ) 1. Take care of your self. -create your safety plan -nutrition -exercise -medical care -employment or other day activity not associated with use -social networks not associated with use -self care not associated with use 2. When at risk: -get out -get help IE use your safety plan The safety plan has two components -Emergency --things to do and resources to use when at risk --if you use, stop right away do not continue, run like heck away -Ongoing --evaluate risk --plan to avoid risk --modify behaviors ETA: this can be simply modified into a harm reduction model as well, which is an intermediate step. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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21st July 2010, 05:02 AM | #90 |
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That makes sense.
To the extent I had a point at all, it was that I was noticing a similarity in presenting a stark alternative. That is probably appropriate for people with serious drinking problems. But surely there are non-joiner types, like Guy Waterman*, Piggy, or me*, who just quit whatever our bad habits are on our own. Not a major point. Carry on. *Not a poster boy for mental health, but his story sprang to mind. *idem |
21st July 2010, 05:21 AM | #91 |
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I agree with all that, too. Much of which is 'taught' in 12 step fellowships. As I said, the program is multi-faceted (whether you actually use the steps or not), these facets might include:
- your model above. - Something I like to call CRT (constant reminder therapy) - getting honest with yourself. - Changing old thoughts and behaviours and replacing them with healthy ones (as per your model also). - Social interaction, development of new social networks and supports *i.e. psychosocial and/or spiritual development). - Ego deflation, creation of healthy personal boundaries, stopping emotional investment in outcomes (i.e. expectations). - Re/connection with your chosen religion (if one wishes). You have described an integral part of recovery which is maintenance, while much of what you have listed encompasses that, the CRT and support networks remain invaluable and desirous for many. Clearly AA includes what you describe as "social networks not associated with use". And it is free, easily accessable and filled with people who have the same problems or have succesfully managed their way through similar/same. In general terms, I'm not sure we aren't that far away from one another when all is said and done. |
21st July 2010, 06:47 AM | #92 |
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21st July 2010, 06:56 AM | #93 |
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No, seems you might be though. However, I would suggest you need to return to school for some lessons in comprehension and the written word - you clearly have some difficulty in this area. If, as you say, you did read the article, you should really be able to determine what spirituality means to the writer.
I have made efforts to explain what it means to me, others too have tried. Too bad if it doesn't fit your beliefs or understanding, but frankly - no-one cares. It seems you too have an axe to grind: Why not tell me why, perhaps I can help. |
21st July 2010, 07:12 AM | #94 |
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If a bowling group had twelve official steps written into the club bylaws and one of the steps talked about using a higher power to improve their skill at bowling, it wouldn't fit that definition.
Given the choice of a bowling group that had that in its bylaws, and one that didn't, I can imagine which an atheist would look first toward joining, all else being equal. That in itself shows the bias. |
21st July 2010, 07:13 AM | #95 |
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You sound like you're trying to recruit or something. In fact, it sounds just like a sales pitch or a religous person talking about their church.
I'm not interested in joining AA; I'm interested in seeing how or why people spin things the way they do and how pervasive religion is in American society even when people disingenously claim it isn't. There seems to be a strong undercurrent of recruiting here, with overtones of "it's all voluntary, we don't care." Just from your replies to my posts, it feels more like talking to a cult recruiter than anything else. |
21st July 2010, 08:09 AM | #96 |
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I'm very sorry that you and your husband are going through this. Struggling with alcoholism is a very tough and (sometimes) lonely road.
I haven't read all the replies here, but something came to mind: Have you considered a group called SOS? http://www.sossobriety.org/ |
21st July 2010, 08:15 AM | #97 |
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<bold mine> That's because AA as described in AA literature itself - the big book & the 12x12 (- just because a minority of the meetings don't follow this material has no effect on whether the base material itself is or isn't a dangerous cult) fits the definition of a cult exactly & precisely.
For a detailed examination of the question 'Is AA a cult religion?' see the following link - I urge everyone interested in examining this question, or anyone who knows someone currently in AA to take a few mins to read this link , and I fully expect AA supporters to ignore it - just as I did years ago. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html |
21st July 2010, 08:43 AM | #98 |
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Emphasis mine.
That is not a definition of spirituality at all. It's not a defintion of anything else, either. You start out by telling us how "good" spirituality begins. so, there is bad spirituality, and it might begin in some other way. Also, regardless of how it began, good spirituality in progress, as it were. doesn't need to still display those signs anymore. And the "etc." is a dead giveaway: You have no clue. You do not define spirituality at all, you just throw a few buzzword around that you think ought to relate to it. Do you really thing that "the process of growth" tells me anything at all? A definition of "spirituality" would allow me to look at something and find out if that something is or is not spiritual. |
21st July 2010, 08:55 AM | #99 | |||||||||
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I'm REALLY surprised no one has brought up the Penn & Teller BS episode on 12-step programs. Not that P&T should be used as cold hard data, of course, but the episode IS interesting and opened my eyes to other possibilities besides AA.
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21st July 2010, 09:06 AM | #100 |
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I just read chapter 4 myself. It seems to contend an alcoholic can NOT stay sober while still being an Atheist or Agnostic. A Direct quote "To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not easy alternatives to face." Also, notice the capitilisation of God all throughout Chapter 4.
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21st July 2010, 09:53 AM | #101 |
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I am one of the persons who does not understand the word "spiritual" as it is being used in this discussion. I have an idea that may clear everything up.
The word "spiritual" is often used as a contrast to "religious." We've all heard "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual," about a hundred times. The interesting thing about this sentence is that I can easily grasp the first part, but not the second. I can distinguish between a religious man and a non-religious man. Obviously, this will vary depending on the religion, but it's easy to tell them apart. Using Christianity, for example: The religious man goes to church every Sunday. The non-religious man does not. The religious man prays for his sins to be forgiven. The non-religious man does not. And that leads me to this simple challenge: Can someone defending the term please show me the difference between a spiritual person, and a non-spiritual person? |
21st July 2010, 10:01 AM | #102 |
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21st July 2010, 10:26 AM | #103 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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21st July 2010, 10:28 AM | #104 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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21st July 2010, 10:31 AM | #105 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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21st July 2010, 10:37 AM | #106 |
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I do all those things. If redefine them as "being a millionaire," will that make it true? |
21st July 2010, 10:45 AM | #107 |
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21st July 2010, 11:07 AM | #108 |
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21st July 2010, 11:09 AM | #109 |
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21st July 2010, 11:47 AM | #110 |
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None whatsoever. You seem to be having trouble communicating what you mean. Perhaps it's time you returned to school? Assuming you ever did, of course.
See? I can be rude too. In fact, I'll wager I can be much ruder than you. What say you stop trying to wind me up and answer my question?
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Moving on, it's interesting that you don't consider the possibility that it's your explanation that's at fault. So far, you've pointed to an article about a woman wittering about how she enjoys flowers and books. This does not tell me what spirituality means. Do you know, or are you just hoping to fend people off with a pile of bovine excrement?
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21st July 2010, 12:36 PM | #111 |
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Exactly. If a group suggests that the members believe in a higher power, that's a less-atheist-friendly group than one that doesn't.
Lots of groups make no mention of higher powers or anything similar at all. It's not like every group needs to make a suggestion to its members on the topic. |
21st July 2010, 04:18 PM | #112 |
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Really!? All I'm trying to do is explain my understanding
I don't live in the US. AA is a worldwide felloeship and every group and individual can express their spirituality or lack of it in any way they like. To what end would I be recruiting anyone? I have no dog in yourrace nor anyone elses. There is a percentage of the population that processes drugs etc differently to the rest. After a period of time they move into dpendance addiction. Just because one once used doesn't mean they were an addict. For mine, 12-step fellowships is for addicts. Why not - if there are valid parallels why shouldn't they be used? It's interesting to me that you set the rules for engagement then squawk like an infant when someone else plays rough. You then have the temerity to suggest I am winding you up. You can start again if you like - nicely, or I'm pretty much done responding to you. That depends on where one lives. The hyphen is perfectly acceptable in many circles. At ant rate, it is your comprehension that requires assistance. Not even close, but thanks for trying. |
21st July 2010, 10:29 PM | #113 |
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If you're a non-addict looking at the program from the outside in, you will never understand the program as well as a recovering addict who is living it from the inside out. I think it's kind of silly for people Penn and Teller to try do their angry little ******** routine and attack something they don't really know that much about. That's like me reading up on magic and criticize their act. (by the way, I think Penn might have come from an alcoholic family because he's got a very pronounced anger problem. And, no, it's not part of the act, it's him)
You have to realize some things about the program. It was written in an era where virtually every citizen in this country was a Christian by default so, of course, they are going to be referring to God with a capital G. It was a central point of reference for society. And, yes, there are evangelical type members who are that way about their religion(s) of Jesus and The Program. They'll jam it down your throat if you let them. And also, the term 'spirituality' can mean anything. The group itself, G.O.D, Group Of Drunks. The group represents a force/power that it outside of and greater than you. Collectively, they are doing something you can't do yourself. Also, the program has a saying, "Take what you need and leave the rest behind." |
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21st July 2010, 11:11 PM | #114 |
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Atheist or not, a person with a serious drinking problem is likely to receive a less-than-friendly welcome in most any group. The local tavern may not even want his business. By contrast, AA is expressly committed to accepting him regardless of what he does or doesn't believe and regardless even of whether he is able to stop drinking. AA has its share of curmudgeons, without a doubt. Rigid thinking and alcoholism go hand in hand. But there are just as many who are not merely friendly but nauseatingly friendly, so that sort of makes up for it.
The general rule of thumb in AA is that you share your own experience. Because it is understood that individual beliefs vary widely, the fine details tend to be treated as less appropriate for discussion at group level than other aspects of one's recovery. Not that it never comes up; it's just that dwelling on it can quickly become an exercise in self-centeredness, and proselytizing is almost universally regarded as a distinct breach of decorum. Those who are relatively new to the program may take a while to understand some of this (and, unfortunately, they are often the most vocal).
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21st July 2010, 11:59 PM | #115 |
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You're making Tinyal's poinmt here ...
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22nd July 2010, 12:20 AM | #116 |
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Have to be honest, that sounds 100% like every cult person \ serious woo-ster I have ever met.
Idiotic Ad Hominem. First off, he is like that in every single episode, heck that episode was a particular calm one for him. Second, if you think they are wrong about something, state the exact facts you think they got wrong. Absolute rubbish. You are again talking exactly like your basic fundie. "The bible was written in another time and so it says bla bla bla" Well, why don't they change it? It's not because it's a "holy text" is it? AA isn't a religion, right? So what's the problem? Since we mentioned the Penn and Teller episode... AA was started in 1935 and the treat remained exactly the same. If your doctor told you he was going to use the same method that was used in 1935 you'd scream and run. Real science is refined and changed all the time. Now maybe we are being too harsh. There are 2 reasons it might not change since 1935. 1) It's religion. And religion changing is tentem to herassy. It's faith it's not supposed to be tested by sciene. 2) The treatment is perfect and works for everyone 100% all of the time. I wonder which it is? |
22nd July 2010, 12:31 AM | #117 |
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Lest we be accused of using ad hominems ourselves:
It is not a valid point for a debate to claim that outsiders cannot understand something. All insiders have started as outsiders and somehow gained the knowledge. It is transferable, so whoever thinks the outsiders have it wrong needs to explain why. And it must be explainable, otherwise you couldn't know that you were right. You might have a feeling that the outsiders are wrong, but if you *know* that they are you ought to know why. and then, you could simply tell us. |
22nd July 2010, 12:53 AM | #118 |
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Naturally, my point was against the argument not the person saying it.
I always find it hilarious when people say "you don't understand because you haven't tried it". Do I need to jump off a roof to know that it's a bad idea? Any proper medical treatment has sufficient repeatable studies that show the treatment works and that it is exactly the way it is. I don't have to be a lab rat to find out. Yet all the woosters keep saying "it works just try it out". |
22nd July 2010, 01:18 AM | #119 |
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I made the same point earlier and I agree. I just thought under the circumstances some elaboration would be a good thing.
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then again, maybe not.
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I find it particularly telling that we are getting the "it's your choice, you can either do it or die"-rhetoric here, that's just utterly flying in the face of all the other claims of "take only what you need", "they are suggestions" and what not. It doesn't really go together very well, does it? Either AA does something that works, and it might be the only thing in the world that works. Then yes, the choice of an alcoholic would indeed be AA or death. (We know it ain't and that claim fails on several levels, but bear with me.) But then, you couldn't just take those parts of AA that you happen to agree with, could you? There would have to be something in it that is absolutely needed. It might be that any of the steps alone is sufficient and the entirety of AA is just a combination of all working methods - but that seems a little far fetched, doesn't it? (Plus, of course, what if I didn't go to the meetings and did just one other thing instead - could that still be called "AA"? I think not.) |
22nd July 2010, 02:00 AM | #120 |
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