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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 22nd July 2010, 03:40 AM   #121
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
Either AA does something that works, and it might be the only thing in the world that works. Then yes, the choice of an alcoholic would indeed be AA or death. (We know it ain't and that claim fails on several levels, but bear with me.)
No problem here: clearly AA does work for many or there would be no AA. For many it has been AA or death (myself included) - and I have buried hundreds. I prefer to live.

But I would like to know why you think that "claim fails" every time

Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
But then, you couldn't just take those parts of AA that you happen to agree with, could you?
Yes you can - this is where you are having difficulty I think

Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
There would have to be something in it that is absolutely needed. It might be that any of the steps alone is sufficient and the entirety of AA is just a combination of all working methods - but that seems a little far fetched, doesn't it?
No, I think you are pretty close; we take what we need and leave the rest. Some need company/social structure, some to purge, some need spirituality (some even need religion - gasp), some need a different approach to their problems, some need new goals, some need life skills, some need self-awareness and self honesty.
All these things and more can be found - how one uses it is up to them, no-one else.

There are no rules in AA. I could be wrong, but you guys seem desperate to want to make some?

Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
(Plus, of course, what if I didn't go to the meetings and did just one other thing instead - could that still be called "AA"? I think not.)
You are probably right here. That said, I know plenty of AA members that do AA online rather than in person, for a variety of reasons. In that sense they don't attend meetings but recover using AA. So yes, meetings are important. One doesn't get paid if they don't go to work either; some effort needs to be made.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 22nd July 2010 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 03:51 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
No problem here: for many it has been AA or death - and I have buried hundreds. I prefer to live.
Your scaremongering notwithstanding: Wrong.

You do not know that those who went to AA and lived would have died otherwise.
You do not know that those who died without going to the AA meetings would have lived if they had gone.
And that doesn't even take into account the possible alternatives to AA.

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Yes you can - this is where you are having difficulty I think
You're not following my logic.

there is a huge, glaringly obvious contradiction between "AA can be whatever you want it to be" and "AA is the only possible solution."

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No, I think you are pretty close; we take what we need and leave the rest.

There are no rules in AA. I could be wrong, but you guys seem desperate to want to make some?
No, we are just realistic enough to understand that if "AA" is supposed to have meaning at all (as a word, not as a rogramme, for now), then that must mean there are some sort of "rules", "things to be done" or something like it. How else would you distinguish between "AA" and a water slide or a kangaroo?

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You are probably right here. That said, I know plenty of AA members that do AA online rather than in person, for a variety of reasons. In that sense they don't attend meetings but recover using AA.
Like I said - eventually "AA" stops having any meaning this invalidating the claim that it's either "AA" or death.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 04:36 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
No problem here: clearly AA does work for many or there would be no AA. For many it has been AA or death (myself included) - and I have buried hundreds. I prefer to live.

But I would like to know why you think that "claim fails" every time
Again, and please understand I am not trying to be offensive or attacking you personally, but you are quoting religion oratory here.

Either you are saved by christ or you are doomed to suffer.
This is the excluded middle fallacy.

What about the fact that there are plenty of people who are saved without AA? Or is that not part of the possiblities of life or death only?

Now if a doctor tells you that you should go through radiation or die from cancer, he backs that up with proper numbers, statistics, studies and proof that alternative medicine treatments are worthless and won't help you at all.
That's decent, logic and proper way of treatment to be considered.

Your own statement say that you can choose between living with AA or die.
How about backing that up with some evidence? In this case, you would need to prove that 100% of the people who don't join AA die (I won't even bother with people who quit).
How about providing proof that any alternative (including doing nothing at all) has 0% success rate?

Without a proof that AA is better than any alternative (including no treatment at all), any form of "join us or die" is nothing but a scare tactic often used by religious cults

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
No, I think you are pretty close; we take what we need and leave the rest. Some need company/social structure, some to purge, some need spirituality (some even need religion - gasp), some need a different approach to their problems, some need new goals, some need life skills, some need self-awareness and self honesty.
All these things and more can be found - how one uses it is up to them, no-one else.
Pardon me for a possible slight derail, but have you actually spoken to people who were in any form of a new age comunity cult?
You are practically quoting them word for word...
And if you never have, can you please think hard enough on the question:
"Do cults actually tell the people they gather that they are a cult?"

Again I find it odd that the same tactics used to defend AA, is the same tactics used to defend religion, cults, alternative medicine, bogus self help seminars and so forth.

Funny how other known treatments for real medical or psychological problems never have to resort to these tactics.
They just show their results...

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
There are no rules in AA. I could be wrong, but you guys seem desperate to want to make some?
Wrong.

What we want you desperately to understand is in order even make the claim that AA could work, you need to explain the following:

What does utilizing AA mean? In other words how do you differentiate between a person who is "using" AA and a person who is "not using" AA?

After that, we can move on to try and see if it does work.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 05:35 AM   #124
Hallo Alfie
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I'm done.

I have honestly tried to answer the questions and you keep missing (deliberately?) the points:
- Nowhere has anyone (that I recall) claimed AA is the only way to get sober.
- I also am a Alcohol and other drug counsellor (among other disciplines) and also know the benefits of other strategies.
- I also know that AA actually helps some people (not all) recover from their illness.
- You seem to know a lot about cults. What exactly makes AA a cult? And even if it were (which it isn't for a variety of reasons), what harm is done?
Of some 'cultish' prerequisites: Where is our charismatic leader? Where is sacrifice of self or possessions given? And where is there conformity to thinking required.

Your comments and judgements come from a place of ignorance, closed mindedness or preconception and bias.

Many people in AA have found recovery and a new way of living; have become productive and responsible members of society, they have stopped drinking, stopped endangering themselves and others.
People in AA and other programs have a far greater chance of ongoing recovery than those who try it on their own.

In short their lives, and the lives of their families and others around them (employers, friends and the wider public) have improved. And you have a problem with this it seems.

If I said to you that AA was religious, would that make you satisfied? I doubt it.

Why on earth you and others want to try and convince people that AA is somehow malignant is beyond me. Thousands, millions of lives have been saved and you have a problem with it because of turn of phrase or two. Sheesh. Get a life.

Bye for now

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Old 22nd July 2010, 05:44 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I'm done.

I have honestly tried to answer the questions and you keep missing (deliberately?) the points:
- Nowhere has anyone (that I recall) claimed AA is the only way to get sober.
do I have to go and search, count and quote all instances of "AA or die" in this thread alone now or what?

Quote:
- I also am a Alcohol and other drug counsellor (among other disciplines) and also know the benefits of other strategies.
Is English your first language?

What qualifies one to be a drug counsellor?

Quote:
- I also know that AA actually helps some people (not all) recover from their illness.
No, you don't.

OR can you point us to the properly blinded and randomized studies that prove this to be even possible?

Quote:
- You seem to know a lot about cults. What exactly makes AA a cult?
I suggest you check the link that details that claim. Also, people here have explained why some of the defences in favour of AA seem cultish to them.

Quote:
And even if it were (which it isn't for a variety of reasons), what harm is done?
Lying to people for one would be a bad thing.

Quote:
Of some 'cultish' prerequisites: Where is our charismatic leader? Where is sacrifice of self or possessions given? And where is there conformity to thinking required.
Sacrifice of self = I cannot change my position without the help of others (in the cult) and goodwill of our "higher power".

Quote:
Your comments and judgements come from a place of ignorance and closed mindedness.
It doesn't matter where they come from. You need to show that they are wrong.

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Why on earth you'd want to try and convince people that AA is somehow malignant is beyond me. Thousands, millions of lives have been saved
Evidence?

And if you don't have it, you are lying. Is that proof enough of the malignantly of AA?

Quote:
and some have a problem with it because they don't like a turn of phrase or two. Sheesh. Get a life.

Bye for now
More insults. how refreshing.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 06:25 AM   #126
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Old 22nd July 2010, 07:31 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Atheist or not, a person with a serious drinking problem is likely to receive a less-than-friendly welcome in most any group. The local tavern may not even want his business. By contrast, AA is expressly committed to accepting him regardless of what he does or doesn't believe and regardless even of whether he is able to stop drinking.
Yes, and of course that's a good thing. I'm just not sure how it relates to the group being religious or not religious. In theory, a church should accept a penetant sinner who sincerely wants to reform also, and a psychiatrist should accept and treat with respect a patient who truly wants to overcome his problems, though one is considered religious and one isn't.

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That's true, but openly proclaim yourself an atheist and see what happens.
Or proclaim yourself pro or anti-abortion, or a conspiracy theorist, or take a controversial stand on any hot topic--it'll cause some people to dislike you or to tone down the fellowship. The difference is that a group doesn't necessarily need to expect everyone to come face to face with atheism, the abortion issue, who caused 911, gay marriage, or whatever.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 07:34 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
To what end would I be recruiting anyone? I have no dog in yourrace nor anyone elses.
That's what puzzled me. I think it goes along with using the usual AA... um, not sure the right word... jargon? phraseology? mindset? out of habit.

I'm trying to refer to the way that members present AA to the world, which has probably been mostly developed in the situation of talking to a drunk in need of help. It just gives it that cult-like flavor. "Come and join our group--it's wonderful. Of course you don't need to if you don't want to, but..." Which may be totally undeserved, but still, not being the "joiner" kind of person, it just sets off my creepiness meter. Still, I know lots of people from Masons to Pentecostals who love that kind of fellowship and respond well to it.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 08:18 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
The difference is that a group doesn't necessarily need to expect everyone to come face to face with atheism, the abortion issue, who caused 911, gay marriage, or whatever.
Let's take atheism. Would you say that here at the JREF forum there is an expectation that everyone should come face to face with this issue? Would you agree that as a (mostly virtual and informal) society of skeptics, there is a net bias toward atheism? Assuming that your answer is yes, does that make JREF an atheist organization?
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Old 22nd July 2010, 08:30 AM   #130
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Of course AAFile claims he is done - his mind is controlled by a cult religion.

Besides, his job depends on it. I strongly doubt he has taken any time to review the extensive documentation & research I've posted by way of 2 simple links - I didn't reproduce the entire content here, simply posted the links, as the material I referenced with those is detailed, researched, & referenced - many pages long. I consider it rude to post walls of text, forcing forum members to scroll through material they might not be interested in (or may already know), rather than posting the links.

I may very well have to resort to such tactics, if you continue to refuse to read the material that I am using to support my argument.

I had assumed interested parties on the opposite side of my conclusions would actually look at those links, but I conclude you haven't done anything except perhaps a quick scanning (and promptly ignoring) of the dozens of direct comparisons that material makes between the way religion & cults operate, and the way AA operates as described in the big book & 12x12.

Some may argue that the big book and other official AA material is dated, old, or otherwise inapplicable to the way AA is supposed to work today - that, in effect, since a (small) minority of groups (or the tiny number of groups - even just a single group these AA supporters themselves attend) don't follow the publications exactly, that somehow makes AA a non-religion. Such a point is nonsense - these 2 books are what AA claims to be, and if a group does otherwise, all power to them - such things don't change what AA world services is claiming to be 'unchangeable', divinely inspired dogma.

For example, over the decades, many people have attempted to alter the first 164 pages of the big book with little to no success - at the conferences where this has been attempted (many of which I myself attended over the last 21 years), we were told AA works just fine the way it was originally written & a significant majority of AA members state the writings of Bill Wilson to be divinely inspired. Those of us who've dared to suggest otherwise - dared to suggest that the AA program needs to be drastically updated since a large body of information has been gained in addiction since the mid 30's - are quickly ostracized from friends, family, group, area, and regional committees - a typical religious cult technique of In Group/Out Group - pushed into a corner (literally, in a few examples) and are told - in no uncertain terms directly to our face - that our questioning of any AA material will rapidly lead us back to heavy drinking, with death, jail, or institutionalization soon to follow.

Such techniques match exactly that used by religious cults.

Primary AA material (such as the big book) directly state that relief from drinking cannot occur unless one finds & develops a relationship with a higher power exactly the same as the JudeoChristian god (don't even try to bring in the line 'of one's understanding' - even a casual reading of the big book makes clear just which higher power AA considers sufficient for lifetime sobriety - the god of christianity.) - I can site dozens of examples, but for a sample, here is a quote of the last line of Chapter 3 of the big book:

"The alcoholic at certain time has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he or any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power"

As this discussion proceeds further, I will continue to reference material directly from the AA big book, the 12x12 , Bill's own writings, and the commentary available from A. Orange's research.

Here is a detailed quote from one of the links I've provided earlier - written not by myself but by A. Orange , since you are apparently not bothering to read my links I am forced to quote a block of text - something I normally don't do and ask forgiveness for from the author, other forum members & the administration:

" * The Twelve Steps are a recipe for building a cult religion, not a formula for quitting drinking. The Twelve Steps are really just a verbose restatement of the cult-building practices of Frank Buchman's Oxford Group cult religion. Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps are not even original material.

o The Twelve Steps don't even mention quitting drinking, or recovery or health, but they do mention God, directly or indirectly, in 6 of the 12 steps. The Ten Commandments of Judeo-Christian religions mention God fewer times than that — only 4 or 5 of the 10 commandments refer to God, directly or indirectly* — but the A.A. true believers still insist that A.A. is not a religion.

o Again, seven of the Twelve Steps, Steps Four through Ten, are designed to induce guilt by dwelling on all of our past sins, "defects of character", "moral shortcomings", "the exact nature of our wrongs", everybody we ever harmed, and then some more wrongs.

o The Twelve Steps tell people to surrender their wills and their lives to God, to pray to God, and then tell them how to pray and what to pray for, but the A.A. true believers still insist that A.A. is not a religion.

o Then Step Twelve tells the believers to go recruit more members — to "carry the message to those alcoholics who still suffer." That is essential for building any cult.

* Some groups even read The Promises out loud at the start of every meeting, as well. The Promises are just some more of Bill Wilson's deluded wishful thinking, but A.A. true believers insist that The Promises are inspired scripture.

* Last but not least, there is the sacrament of confession. A.A. practices confession far more than even the Catholic Church does. In A.A., you are supposed to confess everything you ever did wrong in your whole life in the Fifth Step, and then you continue to confess everything in the Tenth Step. (And you confess everything to someone who isn't even an ordained Priest or sworn to secrecy.)

That's enough "Sacraments, Laws and Commandments" to choke a horse.

# You want "Ritual"? I just described a ritual. Every A.A. meeting is a ritual, begun by praying and incanting the magical Steps and Traditions, followed by reciting cult dogma about how the program never fails, except for the unworthy people... Then the ritual continues with the public confession session, and ends with more prayer.

# You want "Punishing"? The A.A. system of rewards and punishments is subtle but powerful. First off, abstainers are rewarded with tokens or coins and applause and congratulations for sober time accumulated. Then, newcomers are gradually steered towards what they are supposed to "share" when they are called upon to speak, just by how the other people react to what they say. A room full of true believers can be very intimidating. They will coldly glare at you if you say the wrong things, or smile and bathe you in warm, loving looks if you say what they want to hear.

In addition, sponsors will either praise or harshly criticize their sponsees in order to get conformity and proper behavior. All of this is enforced with the threat of death: either do what you are told, or you will relapse and die drunk (the ultimate punishment), they say.

And, if you do not please your sponsor, he or she can fire you, and leave you to fend for yourself. That can be terrifying to a newcomer who fears for his life.

People who have been sentenced to A.A. by a judge or parole officer face much greater threats of punishment: either please your sponsor so that he sends in good reports on you, or else you will get thrown in jail.

# You want "Priests, ministers, men"? They are called "old-timers", "elder statesmen" (12X12, page 135), and "elders" (12X12, pages 142-144). They are mostly men. The host of High Priests starts with the dead "saints" William Griffith Wilson and Doctor Robert Smith and the other dead earliest members, and then includes all of the oldest still-living old-timers, those rare old dinosaurs with 30, 40 or more years of sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous... And then the 'local priests' are the resident old-timers, whoever has the most time.

# About "church": It is very hypocritical of the Twelve-Steppers to criticize churches for having church buildings, and meeting in church buildings, when A.A. then meets in their basements. But they do it. They somehow imagine that they are morally superior to the people who own the buildings where they meet, because the other people own the buildings.
"Well yeh, they are formal, and organized, and have church buildings, while we are free and open."
That's really a crazy granfalloon.

# As far as organization goes, A.A. is totally organized and legally incorporated, in spite of the tradition that says that it isn't supposed to be organized — Tradition Nine. Alcoholics Anonymous has two national headquarters, one for Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. and one for the General Service Organization. They also have between $6 and $10 million stashed in the bank, and they have executives, a board of trustees who each get $75,000 per year, and a national council, and regional, state, and local offices. Tradition Nine says, "A.A., as such, ought never be organized", but they don't follow that tradition any more than they follow the others. It's organized.

... A.A. is all completely organized in a pyramid-shaped power structure. Most members have a sponsor, and the A.A. literature like the Big Book and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions exhorts followers to do whatever their sponsors say:

* A willingness to do whatever I was told to do simplified the program for me.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, anonymous, Chapter C10, It Might Have Been Worse, page 381.

* Since I gave my will over to A.A., whatever A.A. has wanted of me I've tried to do to the best of my ability.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, anonymous, Chapter C4, The Housewife Who Drank At Home, page 340.

# As far as Patriarchy goes, there are few things more patriarchal than Alcoholics Anonymous and its Twelve Steps, which force a dictatorial Old-Testament patriarchal male God on us:

* "as we understood Him" in Steps Three and Eleven.
* Step Seven: "Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings."
* Step Eleven: "...praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."
* The Third Step Prayer has you grovelling before Him so much that you will wear holes in the knees of your pants:

We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee — to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 5, How It Works, page 63.

In fact, A.A.-cofounder "Doctor Bob" — Robert Holbrook Smith — was opposed to even letting women into the all-male A.A. organization back in the early days:

The young were not welcome then. The feeling was they had not suffered enough, had not lived enough years and lost enough to have "hit bottom." Women alcoholics were not welcome either. Dr. Bob and many early members held to the Victorian idea that "nice" women weren't drunks.
Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous, Nan Robertson, page 62. "
Quote above from A. Orange

additionally, Agent Orange - speaking about AA literature & Bill Wilson's own writings continues...<bolds & italics mine>

"Bill Wilson wrote that the ultimate effect of "working the program" was religious conversion. In his second book, Wilson described his experiences while indoctrinating and converting newcomers:

'From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name.'
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 108-109."

It's plainly obvious that Bill Wilson himself considered the words 'spiritual' and 'religious' to be identical, the only difference being that to the newcomer, 'spiritual' was easier to swallow - but lets be clear, as far as he was concerned, these terms were used interchangeably, and what started out as spiritual became religious as his writings (Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, Bill - not some anon 100 drunks - wrote 99% of the AA program. The stories in the back were from the 100 others, but the content of the first 164 pages and the 12x12 were all from Bill W solely. Another Bill W quote where it can be seen how he switches the two words:

"The terms "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Appendix II, Spiritual Experience, page 569.

In concluding the support in this short post (short, in comparison to what I may write in the future & the volume of evidence available to support my case), I leave you with some quotes that demonstrate this very well - all of these are from Bill Wilson:

He [Ebby Thacher] looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, "I've got religion."
I was aghast. So that was it — last summer an alcoholic crackpot; now, I suspected, a little cracked about religion.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, Chapter 1, Bill's Story, page 9.

But my friend sat before me, and he made the point-blank declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself. [Quit drinking.] ...
That floored me. It began to look as though religious people were right after all. ... My ideas about miracles were dramatically revised right then.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, Chapter 1, Bill's Story, page 11.

Assume on the other hand that father has, at the outset, a stirring spiritual experience. Overnight, as it were, he is a different man. He becomes a religious enthusiast. He is unable to focus on anything else. ... There is talk about spiritual matters morning, noon and night.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, Chapter 9, The Family Afterward, page 129.

[At an early A.A. meeting] there was no literature except various religious pamphlets.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 291.

Dr. Bob always emphasized the religious angle very strongly...
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 292, and 4th edition, page 263.

Next?
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Old 22nd July 2010, 08:39 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Let's take atheism. Would you say that here at the JREF forum there is an expectation that everyone should come face to face with this issue? Would you agree that as a (mostly virtual and informal) society of skeptics, there is a net bias toward atheism? Assuming that your answer is yes, does that make JREF an atheist organization?
Yes, I'd say that the JREF is an atheist organization in the same way that AA is a religious organization. I also think the JREF downplays that for the same reason AA does--to avoid controversy that might turn off a large chunk of people and instead focus on the more immediate goals of getting drunks sober or getting psychics' victims to see the light.

In other words, encouraging everyone to apply skeptical thought to paranormal claims, of necessity includes a preacher's claim that God will answer a faithful person's prayers. Encouraging everyone to find a higher power, of necessity requires the belief in what's usually considered a paranormal higher power.

The loophole, in both cases, is that some things aren't subject to testing and are simply opinion, and that the higher power can be a totally logical concept like fellowship or a doorknob (a doorknob? What's up with that?)
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Old 22nd July 2010, 08:49 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Yes, I'd say that the JREF is an atheist organization in the same way that AA is a religious organization. I also think the JREF downplays that for the same reason AA does--to avoid controversy that might turn off a large chunk of people and instead focus on the more immediate goals of getting drunks sober or getting psychics' victims to see the light.

In other words, encouraging everyone to apply skeptical thought to paranormal claims, of necessity includes a preacher's claim that God will answer a faithful person's prayers. Encouraging everyone to find a higher power, of necessity requires the belief in what's usually considered a paranormal higher power.

The loophole, in both cases, is that some things aren't subject to testing and are simply opinion, and that the higher power can be a totally logical concept like fellowship or a doorknob (a doorknob? What's up with that?)
<my bold> Pup, if you read actual AA dogma - the writings of Bill Wilson - including many of the quotes I've referenced - it becomes clear that using the fellowship or an inaminate object like a doorknob is promoted & considered to be only a first, carefully planned (by Bill W) step to using the JudeoChristian God as one's higher power. In many places, Bill and others state that one can start out with such things as their higher power, but demonstrate one is expected to 'come to God' either rapidly or slowly - but get there one must (according to Bill's writings - the heart of AA dogma) if one is to be sober for a lifetime. Those are only considered temporary steps.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 09:14 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
No problem here: clearly AA does work for many or there would be no AA. For many it has been AA or death (myself included) - and I have buried hundreds. I prefer to live.
Faulty rational. You can say the same thing for any treatment including many that do not work

Clearly homeopathy does work for many people or there would be no homeopathy.

Clearly irridology does work for many people or there would be no irridology.

Clearly Reiki does work for many people or there would be no Reiki.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 10:50 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Faulty rational. You can say the same thing for any treatment including many that do not work

Clearly homeopathy does work for many people or there would be no homeopathy.

Clearly irridology does work for many people or there would be no irridology.

Clearly Reiki does work for many people or there would be no Reiki.
Indeed just so ponderingturtle - and clearly, each of those 3 has zero evidence they have any beneficial effects beyond hearsay and placebo effect, with many studies to back that up. (specifically I am referring to homeopathy; just because it's the one I'm most familiar with. There may very well be double-blind studies on the others, I'm simply don't keep up on every single type of woo people invent to separate us from our cash).
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Old 22nd July 2010, 11:29 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Yes, I'd say that the JREF is an atheist organization in the same way that AA is a religious organization.
Then we are in agreement.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 04:15 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
Besides, his job depends on it. I strongly doubt he has taken any time to review the extensive documentation & research I've posted by way of 2 simple links
Wrong - read and considered. I too see the similartities. But do not see things in the black and white that many would try and thrust on me.

The fact is, I love my life today and AA works for me and many. It did help to save my life, that is my honest belief, nothing else had worked until then.

The irrefutable fact is that there are thousands and thousands of AA meetings worldwide. There are tens of thousands and thousands of happy customers. If it did not have some success, these meetings would close down. Yet they remain open to anyone that wants to have a go. There is no roll call at meetings and nothing is compulsory - you don't even have to put in the basket of you don't want to.

AA is a benign fellowship that promotes healthy behaviours, if some consider spirituality unhealthy, that's just too bad.

I consider myself agnostic and unreligious, yet see no problem with having a spiritual side.

For some that try AA, it sticks and works. Not so for others. But AA can work if you put in some effort.

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
- I didn't reproduce the entire content here, simply posted the links, as the material I referenced with those is detailed, researched, & referenced - many pages long.
..huge snip..

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
Next?
AMW
And all the things in the big book, by others etc within AA are suggestions, not rules. There are no rules in AA.


It seems Tinyal that you used AA for a long time.
When and why did you stop going? Maybe you said earlier - if so I've forgotten.
Did you take what you need and leave the rest?
Were you 'forced' to acceopt a God or religion you don't believe in?
Or is my suspicion right that you had simply reached the "exit" point in the *stages of change after a good period of maintenance?

*Prochaska JO, DiClemente CC

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Old 22nd July 2010, 04:16 PM   #137
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Quit pretending that AA is not religious. It is.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 04:23 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Quit pretending that AA is not religious. It is.
Ohh, Ouch!
How could I fail to be anything but impressed by such a well structured, considered and articulate argument.

The agnostics and atheists among us within AA have no issue with those that choose to use religion. We simply make a distinction between "religious" and "spiritual". It seems you and many don't like this interpretation.... meh.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 11:57 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
You're making Tinyal's poinmt here ...



Quote:
Care to point out where they have been actually and demonstratably wrong?
Sure. For starters, he calls A.A. a ‘religious cult’, it’s not. A person can certainly practice and view it as a cult, but the program, in and of itself, is not a cult.

At 4:10 in he says, “A.A. has no respect whatsoever for 12-steppers.” The program
Has empathy for “the addict who still suffers” and respect for anyone who is trying to stay sober. He goes on to say, “[the program tells you to…] Don’t take control, pity yourself, punish yourself, shrug off all responsibility.”

The program encourages you to ‘take charge’ of your life, to be responsible and accountable and get up off your pity pot.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg and then the beat goes on and on and on.

All he’s doing going off on a biased and opinionated rant.

It’s like the old saying, “Opinions are like a—holes, everybody’s got one and everybody thinks everybody else’s stinks.” It’s not factual, it’s not scientific, it’s not objective or any of the things that constitute good critical thinking.
****
Quote:
And your criticism might be totally justified. Or someone could just point out to you where your errors are.
Even if I get some stuff right, it’s not the same as a fellow magician doing the critique who sees magic from the inside out as opposed to the inside out. Remember, this is the kind of logic used to justify Randi’s prowess as being a better debunker than a scientist. He won’t get fooled as much as a scientist who has simply studied magic from the outside in.

Quote:
Ad Hominem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[3]

The bitch about logical fallacies is when they’re true.

Penn is a very angry guy and please don’t try to argue that point or say something to the effect that he cares so much about Truth, Justice and the American Way that he’s passionately using his superior perceptions for the forces of good to protect us poor, naïve superstitious sheeple.

Try contrasting his body language, vocal intonations, facial expressions and verbiage with Michael Shermer talking on TED about playing Stairway to Heaven backwards to hear the satanic message. The two are like night and day. Guess which one is night.

Quote:
there'd be nothing to stop them from changing and revising their texts. And taking down the posters in their HQ, come to think of it. that aside: The spelling is only a minor point - it's not about how the word god is spelled, but about it being there at all.
They have a saying, “If it works, why change it?” Also, if you think congress and the senate are bad about passing bills, you should see a bunch of alcoholics trying to come to agreement over something that big and central to the program.

Quote:
And are these members in any way in violation of the program? Are they contradicting it?
Nope, they’re just annoying and obnoxious.

Quote:
Further repetition will not make this argument any less ridiculous.
Prove to me it’s ridiculous other than just you opinion; charts, graphs, stats, data, links, pie charts, please. There’s nothing worse than a poorly informed, a priori armchair quarterback except maybe a pseudo-skeptic.




Quote:
Again, you're making the point for Tinyal rather well.
He should ask me to be his campaign manager.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 12:23 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post

The irrefutable fact is that there are thousands and thousands of AA meetings worldwide. There are tens of thousands and thousands of happy customers. If it did not have some success, these meetings would close down. Yet they remain open to anyone that wants to have a go. There is no roll call at meetings and nothing is compulsory - you don't even have to put in the basket of you don't want to.
Except if you are ordered by court to go. Plus there are some situations where its either AA or some sort of huge fine or something else equally bad. I have a good friend on mine that was required to go to AA for weed charges rather than pay a fine and have it on his record. This on his record would have meant loosing his job. He is an atheist and resented the higher power thing greatly.

And forgive my ignorance here Alfie but i always got the impression that spiritual was a water-downed idea term for a theist. Water-downed similar to some atheists calling themselves agnostic because it sounds like a less strong/ more open belief.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 12:51 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Except if you are ordered by court to go. Plus there are some situations where its either AA or some sort of huge fine or something else equally bad. I have a good friend on mine that was required to go to AA for weed charges rather than pay a fine and have it on his record. This on his record would have meant loosing his job. He is an atheist and resented the higher power thing greatly.

And forgive my ignorance here Alfie but i always got the impression that spiritual was a water-downed idea term for a theist. Water-downed similar to some atheists calling themselves agnostic because it sounds like a less strong/ more open belief.
I bet he resents getting caught more. I'm sure your atheist friend argued real hard with the judge:
Please, please let me pay the fine and lose my job, your honor! I can't go to AA! I might have to hear them talk about a higher power.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 01:05 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Malerin View Post
I bet he resents getting caught more. I'm sure your atheist friend argued real hard with the judge:
Please, please let me pay the fine and lose my job, your honor! I can't go to AA! I might have to hear them talk about a higher power.
I dont think he knew about the higher power at the time. He was stoked to get off light though. He didnt want to pick a higher power but quickly changed his mind after he found out he wouldnt get credit. So he identified himself as Alvian and his higher power was Alvis. I like his approach, if you cant beat em, mock em. Alvis bless us everyone.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 01:44 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
I dont think he knew about the higher power at the time. He was stoked to get off light though. He didnt want to pick a higher power but quickly changed his mind after he found out he wouldnt get credit. So he identified himself as Alvian and his higher power was Alvis. I like his approach, if you cant beat em, mock em. Alvis bless us everyone.
I guess he wasn't that resentful after all.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 03:15 AM   #144
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Except if you are ordered by court to go.
A fair point too. That said, AA was up and running over there long before the court system got involved. I seriously doubt that its survival depends on court-ordered members.
And btw, (to the best of my knowledge), no-one is ordered to go AA in Australia - yet they still thrive here. Instead, the courts send their 'clients' to people like me (counsellors) to do Addiction Awareness/Lifeskill courses etc rather than AA.

Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
And forgive my ignorance here Alfie but i always got the impression that spiritual was a water-downed idea term for a theist. Water-downed similar to some atheists calling themselves agnostic because it sounds like a less strong/ more open belief.
Once upon a time, I might have thought the same way. Today I see the two as separate. That said, for the theists, they do go hand in glove.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 05:06 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Quit pretending that AA is not religious. It is.
Just as an aside, the structure of AA is religious, however not all groups and members are.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 05:12 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Malerin View Post
I bet he resents getting caught more. I'm sure your atheist friend argued real hard with the judge:
Please, please let me pay the fine and lose my job, your honor! I can't go to AA! I might have to hear them talk about a higher power.
It is a bad vs. 'not available' option.

There is the separation of church and state, so it is valid to say I do not want to attend, it is a violation of some interpretations of the COTUS, however there are not enough secular groups around.

Facing court, I would even go to church, if it meant completing probation, that does not mean it would be legal.

BTW:

Many, many, many AA members are offensively religious.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 05:54 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
The irrefutable fact is that there are thousands and thousands of AA meetings worldwide. There are tens of thousands and thousands of happy customers. If it did not have some success, these meetings would close down. Yet they remain open to anyone that wants to have a go. There is no roll call at meetings and nothing is compulsory - you don't even have to put in the basket of you don't want to.
Again this is wrong. Look at faith healers like Benny Hinn. He draws crowds of thousands, and makes millions off of them, and they keep coming back. So clearly he must be healing people by your argument here.

I don't care that you find AA something you want to do, it might even help people who wouldn't be helped by other methods, but you are making very bad arguments in favor of it.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 05:56 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Ohh, Ouch!
How could I fail to be anything but impressed by such a well structured, considered and articulate argument.

The agnostics and atheists among us within AA have no issue with those that choose to use religion. We simply make a distinction between "religious" and "spiritual". It seems you and many don't like this interpretation.... meh.
And again you are saying that UU is not a religion. It is clearly a spiritualism or something.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 06:16 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
And btw, (to the best of my knowledge), no-one is ordered to go AA in Australia - yet they still thrive here. Instead, the courts send their 'clients' to people like me (counsellors) to do Addiction Awareness/Lifeskill courses etc rather than AA.
More fallacy

Quote:
Also Known as: Ad Populum

Description of Appeal to Popularity
The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
Therefore X is true.
By this idiotic definition,
Jesus must be real cause plenty of people say the church helped them.
Xenu must be real cause plenty of scientologists say it helped them.
Same goes for homeopathy, astrology, palm readers, crystal healers, reflexologists and all that other mumbo jubmo.

If any woo garbage would have been obliterated if it were false, there would be no JREF to begin with. You do realize what the JREF is for, right?
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Old 23rd July 2010, 07:06 AM   #150
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
More fallacy
Explain please.

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
You do realize what the JREF is for, right?
Yep, there are two group in JREF generally: the narrow minded, sexually frustrated with anger issues wishing to vent their spleens. And the rest of us try who try and be adults.

But you are right: If one wants absolute proof I guess that can't be provided.
That said, I know that AA has helped me recover from my addictions, and I know this in much the same way that I know I love my wife and my children. But I guess you couldn't understand that either, huh? Love presumably being woo by your definition.

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Old 23rd July 2010, 08:48 AM   #151
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I've never been to an AA meeting-- kind of pointless, seeing as how I don't drink anyway. But I DO know how to use www.pubmed.gov!! People! Why hasn't anyone just gone there yet and just typed "alcoholics anonymous efficacy" into the search engine? (Besides me...) 63 results, 6 free full articles on PubMed Central. It's not that these are always the most perfect sources, but we DO find studies which address general efficacy of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous in the treatment of alcoholism, how AA may strengthen and extend the effects of other types of treatment, how it may work differently for different groups based on age, gender, race, ethnicity, religion, disability, nationality, identification with mainstream culture, or sexual orientation,which aspects of 12 step groups may be the most/least useful in maintaining sobriety, and on and on and on. I was lurking on this thread and I couldn't take it anymore!! PubMed-- it's the gold standard, and it's the place to go.

Okay, that's the end of the little rant. Talk amongst yourselves.

ETA: Oh, here's a study worth looking at. I wish the whole thing was available. This compared topiramate vs. naltrexone in the treatment of alcohol dependence. Topiramate worked better than placebo, and seemed to have some kind of trend to be superior to naltrexone, but the really fascinating part was that it seemed to cause better AA attendance. Knowing T as I do, this is exactly what I would have predicted.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 08:54 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Maia View Post
I... I was lurking on this thread and I couldn't take it anymore!! PubMed-- it's the gold standard, and it's the place to go.

Okay, that's the end of the little rant. Talk amongst yourselves.
Spoon-feed us, o Paragraph-Devouring Maia!
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Old 23rd July 2010, 09:17 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Spoon-feed us, o Paragraph-Devouring Maia!
Open up. I have key lime tarts...
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Old 23rd July 2010, 09:22 AM   #154
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mmm, key lime--actually my favorite kind of pie.

But somewhat seriously, what was the overall gist--

Is AA more/less effective than other treatments or orgs?

What kind of people does it work for?
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Old 23rd July 2010, 09:23 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Ohh, Ouch!
How could I fail to be anything but impressed by such a well structured, considered and articulate argument.

The agnostics and atheists among us within AA have no issue with those that choose to use religion. We simply make a distinction between "religious" and "spiritual". It seems you and many don't like this interpretation.... meh.

I regard that 'distinction' as disingenuous.

I see no point in wasting words when they will not be heard.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 09:25 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Just as an aside, the structure of AA is religious, however not all groups and members are.

I agree.

But the structure and organization of AA affects those groups and members who do not wish to be associated with religion/spirituality.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 09:26 AM   #157
Complexity
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Yep, there are two group in JREF generally: the narrow minded, sexually frustrated with anger issues wishing to vent their spleens. And the rest of us try who try and be adults.

But you are right: If one wants absolute proof I guess that can't be provided.
That said, I know that AA has helped me recover from my addictions, and I know this in much the same way that I know I love my wife and my children. But I guess you couldn't understand that either, huh? Love presumably being woo by your definition.

Nonsense.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 09:38 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I agree.

But the structure and organization of AA affects those groups and members who do not wish to be associated with religion/spirituality.
Sure my mentor who started the MISA (Mentally Ill Substance Abuse) group and introduced me to relapse prevention was an strident atheist. He actually talked to the judge and got his AA attendance converted to something else (after he spent a week in jail for refusing to attend.). He was a great SA clinician, no god there!
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Old 23rd July 2010, 04:43 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I regard that 'distinction' as disingenuous.
And I regard your 'regard' as total irrellevance. But there you have it.

Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I see no point in wasting words when they will not be heard.
What?

Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Nonsense.
Such articulation and reason! You continue to impress us all with your marvellous insights.

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Old 23rd July 2010, 04:56 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I agree.

But the structure and organization of AA affects those groups and members who do not wish to be associated with religion/spirituality.
Now who's talking nonsense? You really need to explain this statement as it has zero basis in fact, just your ignorant assumptions.

Tradition Three:
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking".

Tradition Four:
"Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole."

Tradition Nine:
"A.A., as such, ought never be organised; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve."

My bold.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 23rd July 2010 at 04:57 PM.
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