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24th July 2010, 06:44 PM | #201 |
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If the (rather few) AA defenders on this thread would bother themselves to
actually read the links I've posted, they would have found details of at least (4) professionally run, double-blind studies that demonstrate the following:
1. AA's success rate is a maximum of 5-13% (defined as those who initially show up at AA and and are still sober 1 year later - not 1 in 20 are still around, from my experience at 1000's of meetings, it's more like 1 in 50.) For those who attend, just think of the quantity of newcomers who show up and are still around 1 year later? A few of the studies demonstrate that less than 1 in 600 people are still sober 10 years later). AA's own past triennial surveys also agree with the 5% figure , although nowadays AA has refused to release the type of data from the survey that would confirm that. 2. Several studies clearly show that attendance at AA (besides giving one - on average - only a 1 in 20 chance of succeeding) significantly increased the users level of dangerous binge drinking. 3. Demonstrates that attending AA increases the abusers chance of dying in comparison to doing nothing at all. That is, AA actually was worse than doing nothing. With the above conclusions - coupled with the fact that in dozens of high level legal opinions, courts have ruled that the AA program is a religion - it is clear that as a solution to problem drinking, AA is worse than doing nothing, and for many it actually increases both the amount of binge drinking as well as mortally rate for those (usually forced by the legal system) who attend - a natural result of having 'powerlessness' and a fantasy (judeochristian religion) pounded into the heads of vulnerable people. |
24th July 2010, 07:06 PM | #202 |
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Yes. In this example, fishing.
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24th July 2010, 07:08 PM | #203 |
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24th July 2010, 07:09 PM | #204 |
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24th July 2010, 09:07 PM | #205 |
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Wait. What?
I thought the analogy from the movie was going to be: just because it's not in the book doesn't mean it doesn't exist through peer pressure. You don't need to write out where the mess-hall is, if everyone is supposed to follow the crowd to get there. So the analogy would be: just because AA doesn't say in the book that you have to believe in the Judeo-Christian god, or just because the JREF doesn't say you have to be an atheist to participate, if the crowd is all headed that way, then you could find yourself sitting alone without a plate in front of you if you don't follow the crowd. That might be okay if you weren't really hungry anyway and mostly joined for the fitness training and the military discipline, but you'll still be aware that the crowd is over there eating at the mess-hall, acknowledging the power of doorknobs or demanding evidence of a soul, while you're over here alone. Did I mix enough metaphors there? |
24th July 2010, 10:13 PM | #206 |
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24th July 2010, 10:36 PM | #207 |
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It doesn't have anything to do with peer pressure. Where did that come from?The point is just because it is not in the literature doesn't mean that it does not exist.
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24th July 2010, 10:44 PM | #208 |
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25th July 2010, 12:57 AM | #209 |
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A few thoughts and questions for anyone who cares to address them.
First, the thoughts. I accept that, from what I've read in this thread and heard elsewhere, that AA groups vary quite a bit, including in their approach to religion. Some are Bible-thumpers, some don't discuss religion at all. Many AA defenders (and thus, I assume, many AA members) take a "use what works, leave what doesn't" approach. I also appreciate that the most irritating aspect of what I perceive as AA's religiosity -- the fact that our legal system explicitly or implicitly compels people to participate in it -- is not necessarily something that AA seeks out or encourages. I bet it's pretty annoying to have folks at your meetings who only care about getting their card signed rather than participating. Basically, I'm on board with the words attributed to Sinatra: "whatever gets you through the night." If AA works for you, at least -- unlike psychics and homeopaths and other things it gets compared to -- you're not being exploited. (Aside from that 13th Step, I guess, if that applies to you.) But I do take issue with what I see as equivocating on the religious overtones, and I find some of the usual defenses about doorknobs and "group of drunks" to be disingenuous. Now that I've said where I'm coming from, here are my questions: 1) What do you consider to be essential to AA? There must be some core minimum below which one isn't really "doing AA." If someone just stops drinking on his own, without setting foot in a meeting, presumably that's not "doing AA." Is it not drinking + going to meetings? Not drinking + going to meetings + the meetings are anonymous? Not drinking + going to meetings + anonymity + belief in "some kind" of higher power? 2) For those of you (A.A. Alfie and others) who assert that the 12 Steps, the 12 Traditions, and the Big Book are non-binding, options, inessential, etc. -- and I'm not saying you're wrong, as I have no personal knowledge on the subject -- then why all the attempts to shoehorn things into their language? Why talk about doorknobs as a higher power, if a higher power isn't essential to AA? Why use cutesy phrases like "Group Of Drunks" as an acronym for GOD? Why don't those who aren't believers just ignore the word "god" or any steps that involve him/her/it rather than playing word games to try to make it fit? Why doesn't every AA member who isn't a believer just say, "well, you know, that stuff about God is outdated 1930s stuff that isn't essential to the program. I don't believe in God and don't need to, period, so I'm going to 'leave' that stuff, and 'take' what works"? And yes, I'm sure some do, but why don't they all? 3) Do you think AA should change in any respect? Should there be an updated 12 Steps that cuts out the religious language while leaving in whatever you regard as essential? Should AA refuse to cooperate with court systems (no signing of cards, etc.)? Or anything else you can think of? 4) Can you think of a way to scientifically test AA's effectiveness, without hampering its ability to help people or the anonymity tradition? |
25th July 2010, 02:41 AM | #210 |
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I guess it would annoy anyone doing something they don't want: In Australia, we don't have the courts ordering people to AA - we do have them ordered to Addiction Awareness programs, relapse prevention, lifeskill programs and the like instead, as well as community based orders, the usual fines etc.
Either way, there is something educational in both approaches (i.e. look where your addiction or behaviour might take you) Obviously AA does not support '13 stepping'. I respect the disingeniousness of the doorknob and group of drunks (especially the doorknob), but is something that has clearly worked for many when it comes to formally doing the stepwork. As for the following (and previous) my take only and rather general; not AA policy per se. First, it goes without saying: don't pick up the first drink under any circumstances. Try getting drunk without it, you can't. Early days (first year or so): Meetings meetings meeting. Educate yourself about your disease, get a sponsor/mentor and start making some new supportive friends - get phone numbers, ring people and get some self honesty starting. Look for the similarities in peoples stories, not the differences Years two to five: stepwork and service. Attack the steps as best you can, take a service postion and keep learning about yourself. The steps themselves are great part of the healing process allowing us to rid ourselves of the guilt of the past, make amends and create new ways of approaching life year five: 'probation' is done: continue with service work and ongoing personal growth and maintenance Many do exactly what you are saying (reject the "outdated 1930s stuff and the word God): One of the underlying problems with the alcoholic is they are completely delusional - they often think they are perfect and have been lying to themselves for so long they kind of believe it. The higher power is required to "resore us to sanity" (we were insane by just about any definition), we have to admit that we do not and cannot control everything. Prior to the development of the 12 steps, there were six. This step was (in part) originally about "complete ego deflation"; admitting something has more power than me is very liberating. Change will be made by consensus. If a change is desired or warranted it will be decided by group conscience (which is essentially just a vote), at group, local, national level. As for the court system, I feel totally unqualified to comment as I do not live in a part of the world where these mandates are handed out. Sadly, not really. |
25th July 2010, 05:06 AM | #211 |
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Imagine that 5 - 13% still sober after one year. That's not bad going, wonder if any other therapy has anything near close to that? What's that? No, well whod have guessed?
And they were moderate drinkers prior to AA right? Right, AA is the cause of their deaths, not alcoholism. Interestingly 100% of everyone actually dies. So why do you still attend this religious cult? Moreover, why did you persist with it for all these years? Oh yes, to see your friends and stay sober - not for religion. It seems AA can work without one being religious, ergo religion not required, ergo: NOT RELIGIOUS! - Imagine, you are the very example of same we had been looking for all along. Thanks. eta Curiously, I have just returned from an AA meeting and apart from the serenity prayer (which I like to call an affirmation) the word God was mentioned once, by one speaker out of nine. Ironically the meeting was in a church. |
25th July 2010, 07:10 AM | #212 |
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Disclaimer: I haven't seen the movie, and am only going by the scene quoted, so I may be missing the larger context.
Exactly (in reference to the bolded part). If something isn't in a book, but "everyone knows" it exists and knows how they're supposed to respond to it, then peer pressure is the obvious way to create a group consensus.
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Even if individuals claim AA isn't religious and point to passages in the book to prove it, saying the book says "higher power" rather than "a god," that doesn't mean what they're claiming is true. Peer pressure will trump the words in the book, for better or worse.
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To make it clearer: If someone doesn't choose a higher power, they'll endure pressure to do so. It's "optional," just like going to the mess hall is optional, but it's clearly the direction that the crowd following the 12 steps is going. The fact that people are told to choose a doorknob if they want, shows how vital the whole concept of a higher power is. Even something silly is better than going against the group pressure to name a "higher power," an expression that we all know is commonly used by religious organizations. |
25th July 2010, 10:01 AM | #213 |
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Another interesting question. I'm tempted to stick with the above analogy and ask whether there is some core minimum below which one isn't really "doing skepticism". The answer seems to be that that can mean so many different things to different people that it can only be taken on a case-by-case basis, and it may even be impossible to answer in a way that completely avoids the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I don't think there really are any absolutes, or any guarantees.
For the person still reeking of booze from his last binge, "doing AA" is not likely to consist of anything more than just showing up. It's not unusual to hear members report having attended regularly for years (and stayed sober) before ever making any serious attempt at the core concepts mentioned above: self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others. (There are some so bold as to fancy themselves qualified to declare others to be "dry drunk" on the basis of a perceived lack at having made those efforts, but I've never been one of them). Conversely, it's not unusual to hear members report having failed to stay sober despite having done those things (sometimes having come to see this as simply a necessary part of the process for them). I've seen people for whom AA itself seems to have become an addiction, at least at times; if you want to hide from your life, AA meetings can be a great place to do that. Whether that is a healthy or unhealthy thing again seems entirely subjective and depends on too many factors to calculate. I doubt that I could have stayed sober initially if I hadn't had a place to hide out for a while, but that's me. On the other hand, the inclusion of the personal stories in the AA Big Book were intended to permit it to be a "meeting in print" for those unable to attend for whatever reason, and there are numerous stories of individuals who have recovered using the 12 steps, and who consider themselves members of AA, despite never having attended a face-to-face meeting.
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25th July 2010, 10:56 AM | #214 |
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In my opinion, to the extent AA helps someone, it is dependent on a sense of community, the AA group itself. This is quite similar to group therapy with one essential difference -- the continuity aspect. We come to know and care about others in the group, even outside of meetings.
This circumscribed community, whose focus and purpose is sobriety, gives it cult-like aspects. The group is a protected and walled-off comfort zone where alcoholics can feel safe among others who share an essential quality and the goal of abstinence. I think all of the power AA has is set firmly in this idea of "tribe." "Hello, I am Hank, and I'm an alcoholic." This is as powerful an admission as a statement of faith in a Baptist church. To publicly make this statement is to join the tribe. But there is an important difference between AA and straight religion: While Jesus is the goal in a fundamentalist church, sobriety is the goal in AA. That puts religiosity in (at least) the backseat of the car, maybe the trunk. AA is willing to backpedal on God if God is interfering with someone's sobriety. And this answers the original question in the thread, "Why do they insist AA is not religious?" They insist on it because claiming the robes of religion keeps some people away. And the purpose, the belief, is that AA helps drunks get sober. Everything is in service to this goal. The belief may be incorrect and baseless. But the sense of community and the power social proof holds over us is very real. If AA worships anything, it worships sobriety. If you wish to be a true heretic, you wouldn't bring up atheism, you would bring up a belief that social drinking is a good idea and moderation should be the goal instead of abstinence. That will get you shunned faster and more thoroughly than any talk of atheism. A higher power concept is a tool. Getting someone to attend meetings is a rather more important tool. Acknowledging time sober is a tool. Telling your story to others is a tool. None of these is primary, only sobriety is. I think it also explains why people quit going. At least it does for me. I simply didn't like hanging around the other people there. In my view, they had let addiction become more of a celebrity in their lives and take up more space than it deserved, they seemed stuck. I lost my connection with the community when the community no longer fit me and I it. I moved on. Now I'm in the JREF community. |
25th July 2010, 12:54 PM | #215 |
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25th July 2010, 04:01 PM | #216 |
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On what do you base this assertion of "pressure"?
Great post, I wish I had been able to say that. Marplots, would it be fair to say you simply reached the point of exit in your personal 'stages of change'? Many do, many stay in AA. On the stages of change.. a brief overview on a model: Stage 1: Pre-contemplation - one is not even thinking about change and or are in denial) Stage 2: Contemplation - Hmm, perhaps I do. Stage 3: Decision - yes I do have a problem. Stage 4: Action - I commence making the changes required/desired. Stage 5: Maintenance - I continue using the tools required to achieve my goals. Stage 6: Exit - goals achieved, maintenance no longer required, I exit my maintenance/the program. This is true for nearly anything whether going on a diet, smoking, drinking, moving house, anything. One can have lapses and relapses within there naturally and there are periods of ambivalence also. It is true some stay in AA for years, why not? I have friends who do service with their local sporting club years after they stopped playing. Why? Social networks etc. It really seems we should take the middle ground on the 5 to 13% figure. I'm going to use 9% from now on. So, now we are up to 15% (9 in AA + 5 who just stop) of alcoholics that get some relief. How many more through: Psychologists? Psychiatrists? Religion and clergy? detoxes? rehabs? Pharmacotherapy? Other self-help programs? Another 5%, 10%? Have you any figures on this? In the stats you provided, how many meeting and/or how long did those that 'failed' at AA stay? It also seems to me that you and others like suggest/infer that AA claims 100% success. Moreover, that any success is based on religion. Please show me where that has been suggested. |
25th July 2010, 04:35 PM | #217 |
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25th July 2010, 04:59 PM | #218 |
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Why? (Attempted move of goalposts noted).
Who said AA was more effective? Not me, no-one here that I recall. I have repeatedly said that AA does not have the market cornered on recovery. The fact is that most alcoholics die alcoholic deaths and absolutely nothing works 100% of the time. You are making assertions of claims that have never been made, and that is rather dishonest. |
25th July 2010, 05:27 PM | #219 |
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My apologies. It had not occurred to me that there was anyone left on the planet that had not seen that movie. I thought you were being intentionally disingenuous.
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25th July 2010, 05:32 PM | #220 | ||
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To answer the question of what is the minimum requirements to say one is practicing the AA program, the answer is the 12 steps. Over and over, at 1000's of meetings I've personally attended, I've been told (and I've heard it said by others more times than I can count) that is one isn't doing the 12 steps, then one isn't doing AA. Period.
Remember too, that going to meetings wasn't considered necessary - when Bill wrote the book, and in his writings, it's stated many times that the only thing necessary to get sober is reading the book and practicing the 12 steps. Not getting a sponsor. Not going to meetings. Getting back to the topic of whether or not AA is religious, a quick search of my big book (not a complete list by any means) brings up the following - all written personally by Bill Wilson, all part of the core AA program (as all of the big book is).
Reading all that - only a small fraction of the core of the AA program - is there anyone left who doubts that AA is a religious (particularly a smorgasbord of the Judeochristian beliefs)? I could go on and on - but I think that's far more than is necessary to speak to the question of whether or not AA is solidly religious. If some groups and individuals decide to 'pick and choose' and ignore the god bothering part, well swell for them!!! It means, however, they are no longer practicing AA - they are practicing their own program. If one completely removes god from the AA program, what one ends up with is very similar to SOS (save our selves), a secular alternative to AA; let me say this again differently - if you remove god from AA, you no longer have AA, but some other alternative, secular program. I urge anyone with an open mind - any skeptic - any humanist - any freethinker or atheist, to read the following link from AA's big book - the chapter titled 'To the Agnostic'. My favorite quote (which by itself goes a long way to proving my assertion, albeit it only 1 of hundreds of similar cases - is " This books main objective is to find a Power Greater than yourself to solve your alcoholic problem" - that power being, of course, the God of Bill's Understanding (that he took wholesale from Buchanism otherwise known as the home of facist god-crazed nutcases - the Oxford Group) It's so full of BS, slimy words, and god-bothering it should make any critical thinker nauseous. The Link: http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org....ook_chapt4.pdf |
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25th July 2010, 05:38 PM | #221 |
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Quote from Dr. Bob - one of AA's founders - what he thinks about atheists:
From Dr. Bob's Nightmare in the big book:
" If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you." Oh yes, sure, AA really respects the views of others - atheists. Sure. Not!! |
25th July 2010, 05:48 PM | #222 |
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Interestingly, you still like to draw on this historical document (the big book) as evidence.
I note with some humour that you did not cite Page 59, chapter five: Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery: 1, 2 3 etc My bold Thus your opening comments a lie, and your citations redundant. We have all found the non-judgemental attitudes of other alcoholics as pretty much the most important factor in recovery (i.e. meetings), sharing our experience, strength and hope. It moves to the heart of social and emotional recovery. And has been repeatedly pointed out, this historical document that you was/is a very handy tool. Fortunately most of us see it for same. Others in AA today have far greater sobrity in terms of time, quality and experience than the founders. Bill never said he had the first or last word, yet you continue to (rudely) dump reams of text into the debate. If you want to put people up on a pedestal, go ahead but they will let you down every time. AA is religious if you want it to be. AA is spiritual if you want it to be. The steps are suggestions. Meetings are important, so are sponsors - as well as ones peers. Take what you want and leave the rest. Tradition three: The ONLY requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking Why do you hate AA? Why do you insist on trying to rubbish the very fellowship, that presumably gave you relief. Why do you have an axe to grind and why do you not answer any of these questions? |
25th July 2010, 05:52 PM | #223 |
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Meh..., one man's opinion - leave it behind, find and use something else. Bob, had his way, I have mine.
We all know what Bob's religious views were - and guess what, he is entitled to them, as I am mine and you are yours. You keep giving peoples opinions as evidence for your views. Go to the (suggested) steps and tradtions, they are the basis for the fellowship; not the opinions of Bill, Bob, you or me. |
25th July 2010, 05:56 PM | #224 |
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25th July 2010, 06:03 PM | #225 |
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You're evolving and not practicing the AA program - great! Good for you! That's precisely what I tell everyone myself - I tell them to ignore the AA program as written (since it's based on Religion, a very narrow religion, and it's core dogma is filled with inconsistencies, purposeful mangling of science, and lies) and get and stay sober by other means.
Don't mention that at a district, area, or conference however. For decades, people who want AA to 'evolve' have been shut down and told to shut up at dozens of AA area and AA conferences I've personally attended. IT's great you are doing so! None of that address's the core of the AA program, however. FYI, Those other means are SOS and Smart recovery groups, as well as 'play the movie to the end' (that is, concentrate on what happens every time you drink - ie, 'play the movie to the end' over and over. Those techniques work just fine - and have no religious content, and don't require attendance at a cult recruiting group. Good for you! |
25th July 2010, 06:17 PM | #226 |
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Good, so we are agreed: AA is not religious and anyone can choose any part of the program they do or don't want. I knew you'd come around.
Where I come from we call it a group conscience. If the group doesn't support it it will not be implemented (same at district and area level too). If you don't like the consensus, stiff, get a resentment and have a cry. As in "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking", and the "suggested" steps? Excellent, you are getting even greater understanding: some things work for some, others for others. AA does not have the market cornered and no-one has suggested otherwise. Why aren't you at these other groups btw? Could it be they don't really work that well? And out of interest, what are the statistics on these other groups? Let's compare apples and apples here. Thanks. |
25th July 2010, 06:38 PM | #227 |
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Quit lying. We are not agreed, as you're well aware. AA is religious and you are not being honest when you say that it is not. I started out this thread having no major beef with AA except in its frequently being misrepresented as not being religious. I've learned a lot. Thanks to the several posters who have helped flesh out some of AA's dark side. I had thought it was more effective than it appears to be. Thanks, Alfie, for helping me understand how cultish and dishonest some advocates of AA can be. |
25th July 2010, 07:46 PM | #228 |
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My pleasure.
Nor have you let me down: You have proven again Herbert Spencer's quotation for me:
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Despite the fact that it has been shown time and again that AA is about sobriety, not religion or God, your views remain unchanged. I honestly hope that no-one you come into contact with (family, friends, children) is an alcoholic and has the opportunity to listen to you, you might end up removing a chance at recovery that might work for them due to your spite driven misconceptions. And if it were religious, why would us agnostics and atheists continue to go (including presumably Tinyal)? |
25th July 2010, 08:38 PM | #229 |
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I am the child of an alcoholic who was untreated for twenty-five years. She collapsed and went through in-patient treatment followed by AA. She emerged dry but religious. I told her that I wish she hadn't 'gotten religion' in AA (which my fundamentalist brother took advantage of), but that I was glad she was alive, and that I considered that a good bargain. My partner turned out to be alcoholic. He went through a variety of programs, none of them AA, dying a few years ago of a heart attack at a young age. There is little doubt that alcohol contributed to his early death. I lived with his alcoholism, and did what I could to help him deal with it, for nearly ten years. Do not dare speak to me further. |
25th July 2010, 08:49 PM | #230 |
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25th July 2010, 08:50 PM | #231 |
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25th July 2010, 08:53 PM | #232 |
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I don't understand why you would reject AA then even if it were (as you say) religious. Your mother and partner had choices. Your mother accepted AA including her personally selected religious component and presumably found a happy sober life in AA.
It sound like the resentments you have are more about your perceived manipulations of your brother towards your mother than AA, she had her choices there too. But I obviously don't have all the facts. It is absolutely true that AA has a religious component if you want one, it also has a spiuritual component, if you want one. Everything is a personal choice. Your partner made his choices too, and at the end of the day that is all we have as human beings. |
25th July 2010, 09:00 PM | #233 |
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25th July 2010, 09:02 PM | #234 |
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Epic fail - I asked for you to prove it without qualification - there was heaps in there, death being just one choice out of many I offered. But thanks for trying.
Alcohol kills alcoholics, remember? Not two weeks go by and I see someone reject the possibility of recovery (whether they try AA, rehab, detox or something else) and die. So why not try AA? I wonder what would have happened if Complexity's partner tried AA? I wonder if he would have been one of the 9%? Imagine that, 9% saved from death or worse because they went to AA, with or without religion. |
25th July 2010, 09:06 PM | #235 |
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Then you "seem" incorrect.
Can you show me something that has better results? If so great, I will stand corrected. In the meantime, the 9% is far better than an otherwise zero percent (well it did when I went to school). This simply shows that AA has a place in society for alcoholics to recover. Other things might work too, but you have yet to provide any data for that. |
25th July 2010, 09:09 PM | #236 |
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Ignore the idiots Complexity :
Complexity, give up on those idiots - they are just as brainwashed as any other cult member. Nothing we say, not all the evidence I've presented and linked to showing the double-blind studies, the conclusions that going to AA is either the same as doing nothing, or actually worse than doing nothing - not all the clear as day (to anyone thinking critically) evidence in bill w's and bob's own words proving the AA program is religious (and - since it's near impossible to change, as per AA's own rules it takes a vote of 3/4 of the active members to change any portion of either the big book or the 12x12 - an impossible standard, since they don't even keep a membership list, so how ya gonna tell when you have 3/4ths of an unknown??) - none of this has any effect on closed minds (or cult indoctrinated minds) as we've all seen by a few posters here.
Luckily, I think some lurkers & other posters have gotten a true picture of the cultishness and religiosity of AA - a true picture of it's ineffectiveness - a real demonstration of the uncaring nature of the True Believers towards anyone who isn't a true believer - that our posts were worth it. |
25th July 2010, 09:11 PM | #237 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
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25th July 2010, 09:27 PM | #238 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
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But did AA work for you? presumably yes, as you still go and are sober (or so you would have us believe)
Did you reject the spirituality on offer. (again, presumably yes judging by your heartfelt disrespect of anything approaching having a religious or spiritual overtone). You are proof that AA works without a religious/spiritual component. You are proof that AA is not religious, and that people have a choice of accepting or rejecting anything and everything that is put on offer. And you are proof of tolerance that anyone in AA can hold any view on anything - AA is about sobriety (remember what "primary purpose" is?), the rest is personal opinions and choice. And I repeat: The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking The steps are suggested (page 59 chapter 3) Nice try, but fail again. Once again, death is just one option, "worse" covers the many, many other possibilities that can/will/might occur if one is an alcoholic and continues to drink. Why can't you understand this? Alcohol kills alcoholics. Show me otherwise if you can (which you can't). |
25th July 2010, 09:42 PM | #239 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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AA Alfie,
Here is how it seemed from my perspective. I went through a crash rehab, an arrest and job loss and a cycle of AA and NA. Losing a habit (drugs or alcohol) leaves a gaping hole in your life. Not just external life, but internal as well. A whole way of being, of acting in the world, is gone. For it to remain gone, that hole has to be filled. Both the time spent on an addiction and the the other resources -- emotional and financial -- have to be applied elsewhere. If they are not, what has changed? For many, AA or NA filled that hole. Many used the groups to replace abuse with something less harmful. For me, after a few months of regular attendance (I did 90 in 90 and stuck around afterward) I was burned out. The meetings all seemed the same. They seemed like reruns. The faces changed, but the stories remained the same. I wasn't committed to either the 12 steps or the larger society of AA/NA. I had no wish to attend conferences or make addiction anything more than an uncomfortable footnote in my epitaph. So I quit going. I'm clean/sober for (and I had to calculate this figure, I don't think of it much) about ten years. I have a couple of beers now and again, and I'd probably do a bit of weed if it wasn't so much of a bother to track it down... So, I think under the rules of the game I was never really an addict in the first place, although I think I have aspects of my personality that mirror addictive behavior. I suppose the line isn't so cut and dried as the literature sometimes makes out. I read the model you posted, I just couldn't fit myself into it. The most powerful thing for me was the stories of other addicts and drunks. I did not want to be them. I was them, but I didn't want to be them. The group did it's job in driving me away. Pretty much the same thing happened with Amway and Christianity (not saying AA is the same as those) -- I didn't fit in and I didn't want to fit in. I let my ego work on my behalf. But AA did help me a lot, it just wasn't right for the long-term. And there are at least two AAs. The acute and the chronic. The acute, in my opinion, is the most helpful. But the acute depends on a few strong individuals who go chronic. I hope you get that. |
25th July 2010, 10:43 PM | #240 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
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Thanks Marplots.
I think I understand where you are coming from (acute and chronic). If I was to put you into a category of the stages of change it would be in "exit"; you made a decision, put in the action and made the required changes, done a period of maintenance and have now exited with new behavious and coping tools. Congratulations; well done you. |
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