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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 24th July 2010, 06:44 PM   #201
Tinyal
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If the (rather few) AA defenders on this thread would bother themselves to

actually read the links I've posted, they would have found details of at least (4) professionally run, double-blind studies that demonstrate the following:

1. AA's success rate is a maximum of 5-13% (defined as those who initially show up at AA and and are still sober 1 year later - not 1 in 20 are still around, from my experience at 1000's of meetings, it's more like 1 in 50.) For those who attend, just think of the quantity of newcomers who show up and are still around 1 year later? A few of the studies demonstrate that less than 1 in 600 people are still sober 10 years later). AA's own past triennial surveys also agree with the 5% figure , although nowadays AA has refused to release the type of data from the survey that would confirm that.

2. Several studies clearly show that attendance at AA (besides giving one - on average - only a 1 in 20 chance of succeeding) significantly increased the users level of dangerous binge drinking.

3. Demonstrates that attending AA increases the abusers chance of dying in comparison to doing nothing at all. That is, AA actually was worse than doing nothing.

With the above conclusions - coupled with the fact that in dozens of high level legal opinions, courts have ruled that the AA program is a religion - it is clear that as a solution to problem drinking, AA is worse than doing nothing, and for many it actually increases both the amount of binge drinking as well as mortally rate for those (usually forced by the legal system) who attend - a natural result of having 'powerlessness' and a fantasy (judeochristian religion) pounded into the heads of vulnerable people.
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Old 24th July 2010, 07:06 PM   #202
Dymanic
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Originally Posted by Malerin View Post
Even in your example, there are shared religious beliefs: they all believe in the supernatural (I assume the Yogi does). Now, are they starting an organization of some sort, dedicated to a common purpose (e.g., staying sober, debunking "woo", etc)?
Yes. In this example, fishing.

Quote:
Atheism, maybe (though there are plenty of critical thinkers who are theists) Militant atheism of the type expressed here? That's as much a religious attitude as the people who come to my door on certain Sundays handing out tracts.
I agree with all of that.

Quote:
In other words, they don't care about God, they care about staying sober.
The way I would put it is that some of them care about "God"; all of them care about staying sober (nearly all of them anyway; there will always be those who just go to meet chicks, or just to get a free cup of coffee, or whatever).

Quote:
I've never been to a meeting (ironically, I type that as I drink my 3rd beer of the day), but they don't sound like a religious organization. Maybe they were at one point, like Unitarians?
I don't know much about Unitarians, but early AA was influenced to a considerable extent by the Oxford group, which I would agree was religious (self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others are concepts taken directly from that group, but I don't see those as inherently religious).

Quote:
It was effective for you, right?
With the above disclaimer in mind, yes. It may be worth noting that initially I went to AA as an alternative to suicide. I had reached what AA literature refers to as the point of "incomprehensible demoralization", and killing myself was the best solution my tired, soggy brain could come up with. The very fact that I had found a group of people who could not only relate to my state of mind but were so familiar with it that they had invented a tongue-twister to describe it was, by itself, a remarkably healing experience for me. And I didn't kill myself. And I haven't had anything stronger than a cup of coffee ever since. Do I have any good way of knowing for sure that I would not have gotten just as good an outcome some other way? Of course not. But those alternative time lines are fraught with perils of their own.
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Old 24th July 2010, 07:08 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Complexity - You're arguing from bald assertion to no effect.

I'm not arguing at all - I'm stating opinions, as are you.
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Old 24th July 2010, 07:09 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
It does that a lot I've noticed.

I don't see any point in trying to have a serious discussion with the pair of you.
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Old 24th July 2010, 09:07 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by godofpie View Post
QFT
Nail meet head. It's cool though. We all have our skeptical blind spots.
I thought of an analogy the other day. Who remembers "A Few Good Men."?
(snip)
The literature is a small part of AA. The big book and a fair amount of the literature is dogmatic, just like religion, but those of you that continue to try and pigeon hole AA Alfie because he can't provide hard evidence of his claims refuse to accept reality.
AA worked for this atheist and countless others.
AA keeps 0 records.
AA could care less weather or not courts send convicted criminals to it or not.
AA is to god
What the JREF is to atheism.
Wait. What?

I thought the analogy from the movie was going to be: just because it's not in the book doesn't mean it doesn't exist through peer pressure. You don't need to write out where the mess-hall is, if everyone is supposed to follow the crowd to get there.

So the analogy would be: just because AA doesn't say in the book that you have to believe in the Judeo-Christian god, or just because the JREF doesn't say you have to be an atheist to participate, if the crowd is all headed that way, then you could find yourself sitting alone without a plate in front of you if you don't follow the crowd.

That might be okay if you weren't really hungry anyway and mostly joined for the fitness training and the military discipline, but you'll still be aware that the crowd is over there eating at the mess-hall, acknowledging the power of doorknobs or demanding evidence of a soul, while you're over here alone.

Did I mix enough metaphors there?
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Old 24th July 2010, 10:13 PM   #206
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I'm not arguing at all - I'm stating opinions, as are you.
Opinions based on what? Any opinions we have are actually based on some personal experience as opposed to.... well, nothing actually.

Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I don't see any point in trying to have a serious discussion with the pair of you.
Now you know how we feel.
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Old 24th July 2010, 10:36 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Wait. What?

I thought the analogy from the movie was going to be: just because it's not in the book doesn't mean it doesn't exist through peer pressure. You don't need to write out where the mess-hall is, if everyone is supposed to follow the crowd to get there.
It doesn't have anything to do with peer pressure. Where did that come from?The point is just because it is not in the literature doesn't mean that it does not exist.

Quote:
So the analogy would be: just because AA doesn't say in the book that you have to believe in the Judeo-Christian god, or just because the JREF doesn't say you have to be an atheist to participate, if the crowd is all headed that way, then you could find yourself sitting alone without a plate in front of you if you don't follow the crowd.
You really did miss the point. Maybe it wasn't as good of an analogy as I thought it was. The argument the prosecutor was making in my analogy was that because "code red" did not appear in the literature that obviously it was made up and did not exist. AA Alfie has pointed out that AA does not necessarily go by the book. That it is OK to go "off the reservation" when it comes to god and the paranormal.

Quote:
That might be okay if you weren't really hungry anyway and mostly joined for the fitness training and the military discipline, but you'll still be aware that the crowd is over there eating at the mess-hall, acknowledging the power of doorknobs or demanding evidence of a soul, while you're over here alone.

Did I mix enough metaphors there?
I guess cuz I don't understand this last part at all. Maybe you should put the cork back in the bottle?
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Old 24th July 2010, 10:44 PM   #208
Dymanic
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I'm not arguing at all - I'm stating opinions, as are you.
I agree with all but the last three words. It looks like you don't understand what the word, "argument" means in the context of a logical discussion. Lucky for you, you've come to just the right place to get help with this problem.
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Old 25th July 2010, 12:57 AM   #209
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A few thoughts and questions for anyone who cares to address them.

First, the thoughts. I accept that, from what I've read in this thread and heard elsewhere, that AA groups vary quite a bit, including in their approach to religion. Some are Bible-thumpers, some don't discuss religion at all. Many AA defenders (and thus, I assume, many AA members) take a "use what works, leave what doesn't" approach.

I also appreciate that the most irritating aspect of what I perceive as AA's religiosity -- the fact that our legal system explicitly or implicitly compels people to participate in it -- is not necessarily something that AA seeks out or encourages. I bet it's pretty annoying to have folks at your meetings who only care about getting their card signed rather than participating.

Basically, I'm on board with the words attributed to Sinatra: "whatever gets you through the night." If AA works for you, at least -- unlike psychics and homeopaths and other things it gets compared to -- you're not being exploited. (Aside from that 13th Step, I guess, if that applies to you.) But I do take issue with what I see as equivocating on the religious overtones, and I find some of the usual defenses about doorknobs and "group of drunks" to be disingenuous.

Now that I've said where I'm coming from, here are my questions:

1) What do you consider to be essential to AA? There must be some core minimum below which one isn't really "doing AA." If someone just stops drinking on his own, without setting foot in a meeting, presumably that's not "doing AA." Is it not drinking + going to meetings? Not drinking + going to meetings + the meetings are anonymous? Not drinking + going to meetings + anonymity + belief in "some kind" of higher power?

2) For those of you (A.A. Alfie and others) who assert that the 12 Steps, the 12 Traditions, and the Big Book are non-binding, options, inessential, etc. -- and I'm not saying you're wrong, as I have no personal knowledge on the subject -- then why all the attempts to shoehorn things into their language? Why talk about doorknobs as a higher power, if a higher power isn't essential to AA? Why use cutesy phrases like "Group Of Drunks" as an acronym for GOD? Why don't those who aren't believers just ignore the word "god" or any steps that involve him/her/it rather than playing word games to try to make it fit? Why doesn't every AA member who isn't a believer just say, "well, you know, that stuff about God is outdated 1930s stuff that isn't essential to the program. I don't believe in God and don't need to, period, so I'm going to 'leave' that stuff, and 'take' what works"? And yes, I'm sure some do, but why don't they all?

3) Do you think AA should change in any respect? Should there be an updated 12 Steps that cuts out the religious language while leaving in whatever you regard as essential? Should AA refuse to cooperate with court systems (no signing of cards, etc.)? Or anything else you can think of?

4) Can you think of a way to scientifically test AA's effectiveness, without hampering its ability to help people or the anonymity tradition?
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Old 25th July 2010, 02:41 AM   #210
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
A few thoughts and questions for anyone who cares to address them.

First, the thoughts. I accept that, from what I've read in this thread and heard elsewhere, that AA groups vary quite a bit, including in their approach to religion. Some are Bible-thumpers, some don't discuss religion at all. Many AA defenders (and thus, I assume, many AA members) take a "use what works, leave what doesn't" approach.

I also appreciate that the most irritating aspect of what I perceive as AA's religiosity -- the fact that our legal system explicitly or implicitly compels people to participate in it -- is not necessarily something that AA seeks out or encourages. I bet it's pretty annoying to have folks at your meetings who only care about getting their card signed rather than participating.
I guess it would annoy anyone doing something they don't want: In Australia, we don't have the courts ordering people to AA - we do have them ordered to Addiction Awareness programs, relapse prevention, lifeskill programs and the like instead, as well as community based orders, the usual fines etc.
Either way, there is something educational in both approaches (i.e. look where your addiction or behaviour might take you)

Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
Basically, I'm on board with the words attributed to Sinatra: "whatever gets you through the night." If AA works for you, at least -- unlike psychics and homeopaths and other things it gets compared to -- you're not being exploited. (Aside from that 13th Step, I guess, if that applies to you.) But I do take issue with what I see as equivocating on the religious overtones, and I find some of the usual defenses about doorknobs and "group of drunks" to be disingenuous.
Obviously AA does not support '13 stepping'.
I respect the disingeniousness of the doorknob and group of drunks (especially the doorknob), but is something that has clearly worked for many when it comes to formally doing the stepwork.

As for the following (and previous) my take only and rather general; not AA policy per se.

Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
1) What do you consider to be essential to AA? There must be some core minimum below which one isn't really "doing AA." If someone just stops drinking on his own, without setting foot in a meeting, presumably that's not "doing AA." Is it not drinking + going to meetings? Not drinking + going to meetings + the meetings are anonymous? Not drinking + going to meetings + anonymity + belief in "some kind" of higher power?
First, it goes without saying: don't pick up the first drink under any circumstances. Try getting drunk without it, you can't.

Early days (first year or so): Meetings meetings meeting. Educate yourself about your disease, get a sponsor/mentor and start making some new supportive friends - get phone numbers, ring people and get some self honesty starting. Look for the similarities in peoples stories, not the differences

Years two to five: stepwork and service. Attack the steps as best you can, take a service postion and keep learning about yourself. The steps themselves are great part of the healing process allowing us to rid ourselves of the guilt of the past, make amends and create new ways of approaching life

year five: 'probation' is done: continue with service work and ongoing personal growth and maintenance

Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
2) For those of you (A.A. Alfie and others) who assert that the 12 Steps, the 12 Traditions, and the Big Book are non-binding, options, inessential, etc. -- and I'm not saying you're wrong, as I have no personal knowledge on the subject -- then why all the attempts to shoehorn things into their language? Why talk about doorknobs as a higher power, if a higher power isn't essential to AA? Why use cutesy phrases like "Group Of Drunks" as an acronym for GOD? Why don't those who aren't believers just ignore the word "god" or any steps that involve him/her/it rather than playing word games to try to make it fit? Why doesn't every AA member who isn't a believer just say, "well, you know, that stuff about God is outdated 1930s stuff that isn't essential to the program. I don't believe in God and don't need to, period, so I'm going to 'leave' that stuff, and 'take' what works"? And yes, I'm sure some do, but why don't they all?
Many do exactly what you are saying (reject the "outdated 1930s stuff and the word God): One of the underlying problems with the alcoholic is they are completely delusional - they often think they are perfect and have been lying to themselves for so long they kind of believe it.
The higher power is required to "resore us to sanity" (we were insane by just about any definition), we have to admit that we do not and cannot control everything.
Prior to the development of the 12 steps, there were six. This step was (in part) originally about "complete ego deflation"; admitting something has more power than me is very liberating.

Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
3) Do you think AA should change in any respect? Should there be an updated 12 Steps that cuts out the religious language while leaving in whatever you regard as essential? Should AA refuse to cooperate with court systems (no signing of cards, etc.)? Or anything else you can think of?
Change will be made by consensus. If a change is desired or warranted it will be decided by group conscience (which is essentially just a vote), at group, local, national level.

As for the court system, I feel totally unqualified to comment as I do not live in a part of the world where these mandates are handed out.

Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
4) Can you think of a way to scientifically test AA's effectiveness, without hampering its ability to help people or the anonymity tradition?
Sadly, not really.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 25th July 2010 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 05:06 AM   #211
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
... snip..blah blah... they would have found details of at least professionally run, double-blind studies that demonstrate the following:
1. AA's success rate is a maximum of 5-13% defined as those who initially show up at AA and and are still sober 1 year later -
Imagine that 5 - 13% still sober after one year. That's not bad going, wonder if any other therapy has anything near close to that? What's that? No, well whod have guessed?

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
2. Several studies clearly show that attendance at AA significantly increased the users level of dangerous binge drinking.
And they were moderate drinkers prior to AA right?

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
3. Demonstrates that attending AA increases the abusers chance of dying in comparison to doing nothing at all. That is, AA actually was worse than doing nothing.
Right, AA is the cause of their deaths, not alcoholism.
Interestingly 100% of everyone actually dies.


So why do you still attend this religious cult? Moreover, why did you persist with it for all these years?
Oh yes, to see your friends and stay sober - not for religion.
It seems AA can work without one being religious, ergo religion not required, ergo: NOT RELIGIOUS! - Imagine, you are the very example of same we had been looking for all along.

Thanks.


eta
Curiously, I have just returned from an AA meeting and apart from the serenity prayer (which I like to call an affirmation) the word God was mentioned once, by one speaker out of nine. Ironically the meeting was in a church.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 25th July 2010 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 07:10 AM   #212
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Disclaimer: I haven't seen the movie, and am only going by the scene quoted, so I may be missing the larger context.
Originally Posted by godofpie View Post
It doesn't have anything to do with peer pressure. Where did that come from?The point is just because it is not in the literature doesn't mean that it does not exist.
Exactly (in reference to the bolded part). If something isn't in a book, but "everyone knows" it exists and knows how they're supposed to respond to it, then peer pressure is the obvious way to create a group consensus.

Quote:
You really did miss the point. Maybe it wasn't as good of an analogy as I thought it was. The argument the prosecutor was making in my analogy was that because "code red" did not appear in the literature that obviously it was made up and did not exist. AA Alfie has pointed out that AA does not necessarily go by the book. That it is OK to go "off the reservation" when it comes to god and the paranormal.
It's a double-edged sword.

Even if individuals claim AA isn't religious and point to passages in the book to prove it, saying the book says "higher power" rather than "a god," that doesn't mean what they're claiming is true. Peer pressure will trump the words in the book, for better or worse.

Quote:
I guess cuz I don't understand this last part at all. Maybe you should put the cork back in the bottle?
You don't understand it, so you accuse me of being drunk? Um, yeah, that really impresses me. Obviously, I wasn't. I didn't understand the point of your movie analogy, either. Should I conclude that you were drunk?

To make it clearer:

If someone doesn't choose a higher power, they'll endure pressure to do so. It's "optional," just like going to the mess hall is optional, but it's clearly the direction that the crowd following the 12 steps is going.

The fact that people are told to choose a doorknob if they want, shows how vital the whole concept of a higher power is. Even something silly is better than going against the group pressure to name a "higher power," an expression that we all know is commonly used by religious organizations.
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Old 25th July 2010, 10:01 AM   #213
Dymanic
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Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
What do you consider to be essential to AA? There must be some core minimum below which one isn't really "doing AA." If someone just stops drinking on his own, without setting foot in a meeting, presumably that's not "doing AA."
Another interesting question. I'm tempted to stick with the above analogy and ask whether there is some core minimum below which one isn't really "doing skepticism". The answer seems to be that that can mean so many different things to different people that it can only be taken on a case-by-case basis, and it may even be impossible to answer in a way that completely avoids the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I don't think there really are any absolutes, or any guarantees.

For the person still reeking of booze from his last binge, "doing AA" is not likely to consist of anything more than just showing up. It's not unusual to hear members report having attended regularly for years (and stayed sober) before ever making any serious attempt at the core concepts mentioned above: self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others. (There are some so bold as to fancy themselves qualified to declare others to be "dry drunk" on the basis of a perceived lack at having made those efforts, but I've never been one of them).

Conversely, it's not unusual to hear members report having failed to stay sober despite having done those things (sometimes having come to see this as simply a necessary part of the process for them).

I've seen people for whom AA itself seems to have become an addiction, at least at times; if you want to hide from your life, AA meetings can be a great place to do that. Whether that is a healthy or unhealthy thing again seems entirely subjective and depends on too many factors to calculate. I doubt that I could have stayed sober initially if I hadn't had a place to hide out for a while, but that's me. On the other hand, the inclusion of the personal stories in the AA Big Book were intended to permit it to be a "meeting in print" for those unable to attend for whatever reason, and there are numerous stories of individuals who have recovered using the 12 steps, and who consider themselves members of AA, despite never having attended a face-to-face meeting.

Quote:
Can you think of a way to scientifically test AA's effectiveness, without hampering its ability to help people or the anonymity tradition?
No. And if that (or some truncated version of that) had been the title of this thread, I would have passed it by.
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Old 25th July 2010, 10:56 AM   #214
marplots
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Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
A few thoughts and questions for anyone who cares to address them.

Now that I've said where I'm coming from, here are my questions:

1) What do you consider to be essential to AA? There must be some core minimum below which one isn't really "doing AA." If someone just stops drinking on his own, without setting foot in a meeting, presumably that's not "doing AA." Is it not drinking + going to meetings? Not drinking + going to meetings + the meetings are anonymous? Not drinking + going to meetings + anonymity + belief in "some kind" of higher power?
In my opinion, to the extent AA helps someone, it is dependent on a sense of community, the AA group itself. This is quite similar to group therapy with one essential difference -- the continuity aspect. We come to know and care about others in the group, even outside of meetings.

This circumscribed community, whose focus and purpose is sobriety, gives it cult-like aspects. The group is a protected and walled-off comfort zone where alcoholics can feel safe among others who share an essential quality and the goal of abstinence. I think all of the power AA has is set firmly in this idea of "tribe."

"Hello, I am Hank, and I'm an alcoholic." This is as powerful an admission as a statement of faith in a Baptist church. To publicly make this statement is to join the tribe. But there is an important difference between AA and straight religion: While Jesus is the goal in a fundamentalist church, sobriety is the goal in AA. That puts religiosity in (at least) the backseat of the car, maybe the trunk.

AA is willing to backpedal on God if God is interfering with someone's sobriety.

And this answers the original question in the thread, "Why do they insist AA is not religious?" They insist on it because claiming the robes of religion keeps some people away. And the purpose, the belief, is that AA helps drunks get sober. Everything is in service to this goal.

The belief may be incorrect and baseless. But the sense of community and the power social proof holds over us is very real.

If AA worships anything, it worships sobriety. If you wish to be a true heretic, you wouldn't bring up atheism, you would bring up a belief that social drinking is a good idea and moderation should be the goal instead of abstinence. That will get you shunned faster and more thoroughly than any talk of atheism.

A higher power concept is a tool. Getting someone to attend meetings is a rather more important tool. Acknowledging time sober is a tool. Telling your story to others is a tool. None of these is primary, only sobriety is.

I think it also explains why people quit going. At least it does for me. I simply didn't like hanging around the other people there. In my view, they had let addiction become more of a celebrity in their lives and take up more space than it deserved, they seemed stuck.

I lost my connection with the community when the community no longer fit me and I it. I moved on. Now I'm in the JREF community.
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Old 25th July 2010, 12:54 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Imagine that 5 - 13% still sober after one year. That's not bad going, wonder if any other therapy has anything near close to that? What's that? No, well whod have guessed?
.
Yea the 5% from AA is miles better than the 5% who just decide that drinking is ruining their lives and stop on their own.
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Old 25th July 2010, 04:01 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
To make it clearer:

If someone doesn't choose a higher power, they'll endure pressure to do so. It's "optional," just like going to the mess hall is optional, but it's clearly the direction that the crowd following the 12 steps is going.
On what do you base this assertion of "pressure"?

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
In my opinion, to the extent AA helps someone, it is dependent on a sense of community, the AA group itself. This is quite similar to group therapy with one essential difference -- the continuity aspect. We come to know and care about others in the group, even outside of meetings.

... respectful snip...

I lost my connection with the community when the community no longer fit me and I it. I moved on. Now I'm in the JREF community.
Great post, I wish I had been able to say that.

Marplots, would it be fair to say you simply reached the point of exit in your personal 'stages of change'?
Many do, many stay in AA.

On the stages of change.. a brief overview on a model:

Stage 1: Pre-contemplation - one is not even thinking about change and or are in denial)
Stage 2: Contemplation - Hmm, perhaps I do.
Stage 3: Decision - yes I do have a problem.
Stage 4: Action - I commence making the changes required/desired.
Stage 5: Maintenance - I continue using the tools required to achieve my goals.
Stage 6: Exit - goals achieved, maintenance no longer required, I exit my maintenance/the program.

This is true for nearly anything whether going on a diet, smoking, drinking, moving house, anything. One can have lapses and relapses within there naturally and there are periods of ambivalence also.

It is true some stay in AA for years, why not? I have friends who do service with their local sporting club years after they stopped playing. Why? Social networks etc.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea the 5% from AA is miles better than the 5% who just decide that drinking is ruining their lives and stop on their own.
It really seems we should take the middle ground on the 5 to 13% figure. I'm going to use 9% from now on.
So, now we are up to 15% (9 in AA + 5 who just stop) of alcoholics that get some relief.
How many more through:
Psychologists?
Psychiatrists?
Religion and clergy?
detoxes?
rehabs?
Pharmacotherapy?
Other self-help programs?

Another 5%, 10%? Have you any figures on this?

In the stats you provided, how many meeting and/or how long did those that 'failed' at AA stay?

It also seems to me that you and others like suggest/infer that AA claims 100% success. Moreover, that any success is based on religion. Please show me where that has been suggested.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 25th July 2010 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 04:35 PM   #217
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
It also seems to me that you and others like suggest/infer that AA claims 100% success. Moreover, that any success is based on religion. Please show me where that has been suggested.
Not at all, you just need to show it is actually more effective than methods that do not have all those religious elements, and not just be like mother Teresa and have good press coverage.
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Old 25th July 2010, 04:59 PM   #218
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not at all, you just need to show it is actually more effective than methods that do not have all those religious elements, and not just be like mother Teresa and have good press coverage.
Why? (Attempted move of goalposts noted).

Who said AA was more effective? Not me, no-one here that I recall. I have repeatedly said that AA does not have the market cornered on recovery. The fact is that most alcoholics die alcoholic deaths and absolutely nothing works 100% of the time.

You are making assertions of claims that have never been made, and that is rather dishonest.

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Old 25th July 2010, 05:27 PM   #219
godofpie
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Disclaimer: I haven't seen the movie, and am only going by the scene quoted, so I may be missing the larger context.
My apologies. It had not occurred to me that there was anyone left on the planet that had not seen that movie. I thought you were being intentionally disingenuous.



Quote:
The fact that people are told to choose a doorknob if they want, shows how vital the whole concept of a higher power is. Even something silly is better than going against the group pressure to name a "higher power," an expression that we all know is commonly used by religious organizations.
It is "a power greater than ourselves" which eventually translates into "higher power" for discussion purposes. You seem to be equating "higher power" with god. I chose and still choose the group. For me, it was not that far of a stretch. These people sitting before me were a power greater than me. They were able to accomplish what I had not. No god necessary.
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Old 25th July 2010, 05:32 PM   #220
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To answer the question of what is the minimum requirements to say one is practicing the AA program, the answer is the 12 steps. Over and over, at 1000's of meetings I've personally attended, I've been told (and I've heard it said by others more times than I can count) that is one isn't doing the 12 steps, then one isn't doing AA. Period.

Remember too, that going to meetings wasn't considered necessary - when Bill wrote the book, and in his writings, it's stated many times that the only thing necessary to get sober is reading the book and practicing the 12 steps.

Not getting a sponsor.

Not going to meetings.

Getting back to the topic of whether or not AA is religious, a quick search of my big book (not a complete list by any means) brings up the following - all written personally by Bill Wilson, all part of the core AA program (as all of the big book is).

Edited by Locknar:  Quoted material removed and can be found here: http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/BigBook/toc.htm


Reading all that - only a small fraction of the core of the AA program - is there anyone left who doubts that AA is a religious (particularly a smorgasbord of the Judeochristian beliefs)?

I could go on and on - but I think that's far more than is necessary to speak to the question of whether or not AA is solidly religious. If some groups and individuals decide to 'pick and choose' and ignore the god bothering part, well swell for them!!! It means, however, they are no longer practicing AA - they are practicing their own program.

If one completely removes god from the AA program, what one ends up with is very similar to SOS (save our selves), a secular alternative to AA; let me say this again differently - if you remove god from AA, you no longer have AA, but some other alternative, secular program.

I urge anyone with an open mind - any skeptic - any humanist - any freethinker or atheist, to read the following link from AA's big book - the chapter titled 'To the Agnostic'. My favorite quote (which by itself goes a long way to proving my assertion, albeit it only 1 of hundreds of similar cases - is " This books main objective is to find a Power Greater than yourself to solve your alcoholic problem" - that power being, of course, the God of Bill's Understanding (that he took wholesale from Buchanism otherwise known as the home of facist god-crazed nutcases - the Oxford Group)
It's so full of BS, slimy words, and god-bothering it should make any critical thinker nauseous.

The Link:
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org....ook_chapt4.pdf

Last edited by Locknar; 31st October 2010 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 05:38 PM   #221
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Quote from Dr. Bob - one of AA's founders - what he thinks about atheists:

From Dr. Bob's Nightmare in the big book:

" If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you."

Oh yes, sure, AA really respects the views of others - atheists. Sure.

Not!!
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Old 25th July 2010, 05:48 PM   #222
Hallo Alfie
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Interestingly, you still like to draw on this historical document (the big book) as evidence.
I note with some humour that you did not cite Page 59, chapter five:

Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
1, 2 3 etc

My bold

Thus your opening comments a lie, and your citations redundant.
We have all found the non-judgemental attitudes of other alcoholics as pretty much the most important factor in recovery (i.e. meetings), sharing our experience, strength and hope. It moves to the heart of social and emotional recovery.

And has been repeatedly pointed out, this historical document that you was/is a very handy tool. Fortunately most of us see it for same.
Others in AA today have far greater sobrity in terms of time, quality and experience than the founders. Bill never said he had the first or last word, yet you continue to (rudely) dump reams of text into the debate. If you want to put people up on a pedestal, go ahead but they will let you down every time.

AA is religious if you want it to be.
AA is spiritual if you want it to be.
The steps are suggestions.
Meetings are important, so are sponsors - as well as ones peers.
Take what you want and leave the rest.
Tradition three: The ONLY requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking

Why do you hate AA?
Why do you insist on trying to rubbish the very fellowship, that presumably gave you relief.
Why do you have an axe to grind and why do you not answer any of these questions?

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Old 25th July 2010, 05:52 PM   #223
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
From Dr. Bob's Nightmare in the big book:

" If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you."
Meh..., one man's opinion - leave it behind, find and use something else. Bob, had his way, I have mine.
We all know what Bob's religious views were - and guess what, he is entitled to them, as I am mine and you are yours.

You keep giving peoples opinions as evidence for your views. Go to the (suggested) steps and tradtions, they are the basis for the fellowship; not the opinions of Bill, Bob, you or me.
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Old 25th July 2010, 05:56 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
To answer the question of what is the minimum requirements to say one is practicing the AA program, the answer is the 12 steps. Over and over, at 1000's of meetings I've personally attended, I've been told (and I've heard it said by others more times than I can count) that is one isn't doing the 12 steps, then one isn't doing AA. Period.


Getting back to the topic of whether or not AA is religious, a quick search of my big book (not a complete list by any means) brings up the following - all written personally by Bill Wilson, all part of the core AA program (as all of the big book is).

1.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER NINE P133.ASP
...lay together or separately as much as their circumstances warrant. We are sure God wants us to be happy, joyous, and free. We cannot subscribe to the belief that his life is a vale of tears, though it once was just that for many of us. But ...
./aspbook/ch9p133.asp
2.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER NINE P130.ASP
...great sense of purpose, accompanied by a growing consciousness of the power of God in our lives. We have come to believe He would like us to keep our heads in the clouds with Him, but that our feet ought to be firmly planted on earth. That ...
./aspbook/ch9p130.asp
3.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER NINE P129.ASP
...rong side of every argument, but that now he has become a superior person with God on his side. If the family persists in criticism, this fallacy may take a still greater hold on father. Instead of treating the family as he should, he may r...
./aspbook/ch9p129.asp
4.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER NINE P128.ASP
... spiritual matters morning, noon and night. He may demand that the family find God in a hurry, or exhibit amazing indifference to them and say he is above worldly considerations. He may tell mother, who has been religious all her life, that...
./aspbook/ch9p128.asp
5.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER NINE P124.ASP
... which makes life seem so worth while to us now. Cling to the thought that, in God’s hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have-the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. It is p...
./aspbook/ch9p124.asp
6.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER NINE P123.ASP
...be back, they think. Sometimes they demand that dad bring them back instantly! God, they believe, almost owes this recompense on a long overdue account. But the head of the house has spent years in pulling down the structures of business, r...
./aspbook/ch9p123.asp
7.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER EIGHT P121.ASP
...ifficulties. So to you out there-who may soon be with us-we say “Good luck and God bless you.”
./aspbook/ch8p121.asp
8.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER EIGHT P120.ASP
...and go as he likes. This is important. If he gets drunk, don’t blame yourself. God has either removed your husband’s liquor problem or He has not. If not, it had better be found out right away. Then you and your husband can get right down t...
./aspbook/ch8p120.asp


9.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER EIGHT P117.ASP
... so helpful to your husband as the radically changed attitude toward him which God will show you how to have. Go along with you husband if you possibly can. If you and your husband find a solution for the pressing problem of drink you are, ...
./aspbook/ch8p117.asp
10.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER EIGHT P116.ASP
...y has been a boon to us, for it opened up a path which led to the discovery of God. We have elsewhere remarked how much better life is when lived on a spiritual plane. If God can solve the age-old riddle of alcoholism, He can solve your pro...
./aspbook/ch8p116.asp
11.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER EIGHT P114.ASP
...ms and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep! You may have the reverse situation on your hands. Perhaps you have a husband who is at large, but who should be committed. Some men cannot or will...
./aspbook/ch8p114.asp
12.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SEVEN P98.ASP
...ce plane, the alcoholic commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God. He clamors for this or that, claiming he cannot master alcohol until his material needs are cared for. Nonsense. Some of us have taken very hard knocks to l...
./aspbook/ch7p98.asp
13.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SEVEN P95.ASP
...ld not be pushed or prodded by you, his wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire must come from within. If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his ow...
./aspbook/ch7p95.asp
14.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SEVEN P93.ASP
...heist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him. Note: This is - or should be - impossible for the atheist! The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and t...
./aspbook/ch7p93.asp
15.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SEVEN P102.ASP
...arth on such an errand. Keep on the firing line of life with these motives and God will keep you unharmed. Many of us keep liquor in our homes. We often need it to carry green recruits through a severe hangover. Some of us still serve it to...
./aspbook/ch7p102.asp
16.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SEVEN P100.ASP
ent upon people. It is dependent upon his relationship with God. We have seen men get well whose families have not returned at all. We have seen others slip when the family came back too soon. Both you and the new man must walk day by day ...
./aspbook/ch7p100.asp

17.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P88.ASP
...ourselves. It works-it really does. We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. “Faith without works is dead.” The next chapter ...
./aspbook/ch6p88.asp
18.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P87.ASP
...he mind. Being still inexperienced and having just made conscious contact with God, it is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times. We might pay for this presumption in all sorts of absurd actions and ideas. Nevertheless, ...
./aspbook/ch6p87.asp
19.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P86.ASP
...r that would diminish our usefulness to others. After making our review we ask God’s forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken. On awakening let us think about the twenty-four hours ahead. We consider our plans for th...
./aspbook/ch6p86.asp
20.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P85.ASP
...f our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God’s will into all of our activities. “How can I best serve Thee-Thy will (not mine) be done.” These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exerc...
./aspbook/ch6p85.asp
21.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P84.ASP
...ow to handle situations which used to baffle us. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fulfilled among us—sometimes quickly, someti...
./aspbook/ch6p84.asp
22.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P83.ASP
...ensible, tactful, considerate and humble without being servile or scraping. As God’s people we stand on our feet; we don’t crawl before anyone. If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half ...
./aspbook/ch6p83.asp
23.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P81.ASP
...ve no right to involve another person. We are sorry for what we have done and, God willing, it shall not be repeated. More than that we cannot do; we have no right to go further. Though there may be justifiable exceptions, and though we wis...
./aspbook/ch6p81.asp
24.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P80.ASP
...eir consent. If we have obtained permission, have consulted with others, asked God to help and the drastic step is indicated we must not shrink. This brings to mind a story about one of our friends. While drinking, he accepted a sum of mone...
./aspbook/ch6p80.asp

25.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P77.ASP
...nd in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us. It is seldom wise to approach an individual, who still smarts from our injustice to him, and announce that we have gone religious. I...
./aspbook/ch6p77.asp
26.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P76.ASP
...We have emphasized willingness as being indispensable. Are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable? Can He now take them all—everyone? If we still cling to something we will not let go,...
./aspbook/ch6p76.asp
27.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P75.ASP
...e we can be quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what we have done. We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better. Taking this book down from our shelf we turn to the page which contains the twelve steps. Carefully rea...
./aspbook/ch6p75.asp
28.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER SIX P72.ASP
... action on our part, which, when completed, will mean that we have admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our defects. This brings us to the Fifth Step in the program of recovery mentioned in the prec...
./aspbook/ch6p72.asp
29.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P71.ASP
for us what we could not do for ourselves. We hope you are convinced now that God can remove whatever self-will has blocked you off from Him. If you have already made a decision, and an inventory of your grosser handicaps, you have made a ...
./aspbook/ch5p71.asp
30.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P70.ASP
persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge. We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice. Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does ...
./aspbook/ch5p70.asp
31.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P69.ASP
... life. We subjected each relation to this test-was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or ...
./aspbook/ch5p69.asp
32.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P68.ASP
...-we think so. For we are now on a different basis of trusting and relying upon God. We trust infinite God rather than our finite selves. We are in the world to play the role He assigns. Just to the extent that we do as we think He would hav...
./aspbook/ch5p68.asp
33.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P67.ASP
... and the way these disturbed us, they, like ourselves, were sick too. We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, This i...
./aspbook/ch5p67.asp
34.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P63.ASP
...We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my diffi...
./aspbook/ch5p63.asp
35.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P62.ASP
...thing, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore,...
./aspbook/ch5p62.asp
36.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P60.ASP
...s. (b)That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism. (c)That God could and would if He were sought. Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understoo...
./aspbook/ch5p60.asp
37.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FIVE P59.ASP
...out help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now! Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. we asked His protection and care with complete abandon. Here are the ...
./aspbook/ch5p59.asp
38.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P57.ASP
... revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity. What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements are simple. Circumstances made him willing to believe. He humbly offered him...
./aspbook/ch4p57.asp
39.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P56.ASP
...al experience. Our friend's gorge rose as he bitterly cried out: If there is a God, He certainly hasn't done anything for me! But later, alone in his room, he asked himself this question: veIs it possible that all the religious people I ha ...
./aspbook/ch4p56.asp
40.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P55.ASP
...al liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true. Actually we were fooling ourselves...
./aspbook/ch4p55.asp
41.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P54.ASP
... that but a sort of faith? Yes, we had been faithful, abjectly faithful to the God of Reason. So, in one way or another, we discovered that faith had been involved all the time! We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of m...
./aspbook/ch4p54.asp
42.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P53.ASP
...d not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn't. What was our choice to be? Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted with the questi...
./aspbook/ch4p53.asp
43.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P52.ASP
...reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did. The Wright brothers' almost childish faith that they could build a machine which would fly was the mainspring ...
./aspbook/ch4p52.asp
44.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P51.ASP
...y hundreds of people are able to say that the consciousness of the Presence of God is today the most important fact of their lives, they present a powerful reason why one should have faith. This world of ours has made more material progress...
./aspbook/ch4p51.asp
45.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P49.ASP
...oks and indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere. Instead of regarding ours... <note Bills thoughts here - he's talking about abiogensis and evolution - all freethinkers should read this chapter 4 to confirm that AA is wholly religious>
./aspbook/ch4p49.asp
47.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P46.ASP
...as impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God. Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make th...
./aspbook/ch4p46.asp
48.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER FOUR P45.ASP
...ual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. <no kidding!! Note - Bill W does not believe that atheists actually existed, only agnostics> Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowsh...
./aspbook/ch4p45.asp
49.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER TWO P29.ASP
...ge and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually happened in their lives. We hope no one will consider these self...
./aspbook/ch2p29.asp
50.BIG BOOK-CHAPTER TWO P28.ASP
...eemed at first a flimsy reed, has proved to be the loving and powerful hand of God. A new life has been given us or, if you prefer, a design for living that really works. The distinguished American psychologist, William James, in his book V...
./aspbook/ch2p28.asp
Reading all that - only a small fraction of the core of the AA program - is there anyone left who doubts that AA is a religious (particularly a smorgasbord of the Judeochristian beliefs)?

I could go on and on - but I think that's far more than is necessary to speak to the question of whether or not AA is solidly religious. If some groups and individuals decide to 'pick and choose' and ignore the god bothering part, well swell for them!!! It means, however, they are no longer practicing AA - they are practicing their own program.

If one completely removes god from the AA program, what one ends up with is very similar to SOS (save our selves), a secular alternative to AA; let me say this again differently - if you remove god from AA, you no longer have AA, but some other alternative, secular program.

I urge anyone with an open mind - any skeptic - any humanist - any freethinker or atheist, to read the following link from AA's big book - the chapter titled 'To the Agnostic'. My favorite quote (which by itself goes a long way to proving my assertion, albeit it only 1 of hundreds of similar cases - is " This books main objective is to find a Power Greater than yourself to solve your alcoholic problem" - that power being, of course, the God of Bill's Understanding (that he took wholesale from Buchanism otherwise known as the home of facist god-crazed nutcases - the Oxford Group)
It's so full of BS, slimy words, and god-bothering it should make any critical thinker nauseous.

The Link:
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org....ook_chapt4.pdf
That was him. That was then. This is us. This is now. Evolution. What a concept.
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Old 25th July 2010, 06:03 PM   #225
Tinyal
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You're evolving and not practicing the AA program - great! Good for you! That's precisely what I tell everyone myself - I tell them to ignore the AA program as written (since it's based on Religion, a very narrow religion, and it's core dogma is filled with inconsistencies, purposeful mangling of science, and lies) and get and stay sober by other means.

Don't mention that at a district, area, or conference however. For decades, people who want AA to 'evolve' have been shut down and told to shut up at dozens of AA area and AA conferences I've personally attended. IT's great you are doing so!

None of that address's the core of the AA program, however.

FYI, Those other means are SOS and Smart recovery groups, as well as 'play the movie to the end' (that is, concentrate on what happens every time you drink - ie, 'play the movie to the end' over and over.

Those techniques work just fine - and have no religious content, and don't require attendance at a cult recruiting group.

Good for you!

Last edited by Tinyal; 25th July 2010 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 06:17 PM   #226
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
You're evolving and not practicing the AA program - great! Good for you! That's precisely what I tell everyone myself - I tell them to ignore the AA program as written (since it's based on Religion, a very narrow religion, and it's core dogma is filled with inconsistencies, purposeful mangling of science, and lies) and get and stay sober by other means.
Good, so we are agreed: AA is not religious and anyone can choose any part of the program they do or don't want. I knew you'd come around.

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
Don't mention that at a district, area, or conference however. For decades, people who want AA to 'evolve' have been shut down and told to shut up at dozens of AA area and AA conferences I've personally attended. IT's great you are doing so!
Where I come from we call it a group conscience. If the group doesn't support it it will not be implemented (same at district and area level too). If you don't like the consensus, stiff, get a resentment and have a cry.

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
None of that address's the core of the AA program, however.
As in
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking", and the "suggested" steps?

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
Those techniques work just fine - and have no religious content, and don't require attendance at a cult recruiting group.
Excellent, you are getting even greater understanding: some things work for some, others for others. AA does not have the market cornered and no-one has suggested otherwise. Why aren't you at these other groups btw? Could it be they don't really work that well?

And out of interest, what are the statistics on these other groups? Let's compare apples and apples here.

Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
Good for you!
Thanks.
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Old 25th July 2010, 06:38 PM   #227
Complexity
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Good, so we are agreed: AA is not religious and anyone can choose any part of the program they do or don't want.

Quit lying.

We are not agreed, as you're well aware.

AA is religious and you are not being honest when you say that it is not.

I started out this thread having no major beef with AA except in its frequently being misrepresented as not being religious.

I've learned a lot. Thanks to the several posters who have helped flesh out some of AA's dark side. I had thought it was more effective than it appears to be.

Thanks, Alfie, for helping me understand how cultish and dishonest some advocates of AA can be.
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Old 25th July 2010, 07:46 PM   #228
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Quit lying.

We are not agreed, as you're well aware.

AA is religious and you are not being honest when you say that it is not.

I started out this thread having no major beef with AA except in its frequently being misrepresented as not being religious.

I've learned a lot. Thanks to the several posters who have helped flesh out some of AA's dark side. I had thought it was more effective than it appears to be.

Thanks, Alfie, for helping me understand how cultish and dishonest some advocates of AA can be.
My pleasure.

Nor have you let me down: You have proven again Herbert Spencer's quotation for me:
Quote:
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”
Your ignorant basis for thinking one way remains unswayed due to confirmation bias and an underlying hatred for anything that might have the vaguest connection to religion. You have refused to look at and consider anything that might contradict these baseless opinions.

Despite the fact that it has been shown time and again that AA is about sobriety, not religion or God, your views remain unchanged.

I honestly hope that no-one you come into contact with (family, friends, children) is an alcoholic and has the opportunity to listen to you, you might end up removing a chance at recovery that might work for them due to your spite driven misconceptions.

And if it were religious, why would us agnostics and atheists continue to go (including presumably Tinyal)?

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 25th July 2010 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 08:38 PM   #229
Complexity
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
My pleasure.

Nor have you let me down: You have proven again Herbert Spencer's quotation for me:


Your ignorant basis for thinking one way remains unswayed due to confirmation bias and an underlying hatred for anything that might have the vaguest connection to religion. You have refused to look at and consider anything that might contradict these baseless opinions.

Despite the fact that it has been shown time and again that AA is about sobriety, not religion or God, your views remain unchanged.

I honestly hope that no-one you come into contact with (family, friends, children) is an alcoholic and has the opportunity to listen to you, you might end up removing a chance at recovery that might work for them due to your spite driven misconceptions.

I am the child of an alcoholic who was untreated for twenty-five years. She collapsed and went through in-patient treatment followed by AA. She emerged dry but religious.

I told her that I wish she hadn't 'gotten religion' in AA (which my fundamentalist brother took advantage of), but that I was glad she was alive, and that I considered that a good bargain.

My partner turned out to be alcoholic. He went through a variety of programs, none of them AA, dying a few years ago of a heart attack at a young age. There is little doubt that alcohol contributed to his early death. I lived with his alcoholism, and did what I could to help him deal with it, for nearly ten years.

Do not dare speak to me further.
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Old 25th July 2010, 08:49 PM   #230
Malerin
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I am the child of an alcoholic who was untreated for twenty-five years. She collapsed and went through in-patient treatment followed by AA. She emerged dry but religious.

I told her that I wish she hadn't 'gotten religion' in AA (which my fundamentalist brother took advantage of), but that I was glad she was alive, and that I considered that a good bargain.

My partner turned out to be alcoholic. He went through a variety of programs, none of them AA, dying a few years ago of a heart attack at a young age. There is little doubt that alcohol contributed to his early death. I lived with his alcoholism, and did what I could to help him deal with it, for nearly ten years.
LOL, you really don't have a grip on this whole "argument" thing, do you? Your own personal story inadvertantly confirms Alfie's point: AA is 1 for 1 and non-AA is 0 for 1. Or do you think it's better to be dead than religious?


Quote:
Do not dare speak to me further.
Or what, big guy?
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Old 25th July 2010, 08:50 PM   #231
tsig
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Very droll.
Now, where is the fallacy in my argument?



As I said earlier, this probably can't be quantified in the sense you want.
Nor have I ever said that it works better than "any other treatment instead of no treatment". Moving of goalposts noted.

Anonymity is the foundation of AA. Theye don't take roll call and it seems you don't like it



The Australian Government in their June 2009 publication on "treatment of alcohol problems" says:

"Research suggests that patients who attend AA as part of a structured treatment program, in addition to outpatient sessions, and begin attendance early in their treatment, demonstrate better outcomes than people attending either AA or treatment alone".

"Several studies haver also suggested that AA-facilitated abstinence is partly due to an increase in self-efficacy, which arises from recovery".



So I don't love my family? Nice.
I feel sad for you now; it must be awful not kniowing whether one loves or is loved.



For some that is true. My evidence - me! Anecdotal I know, but evidence nonetheless.
Please show me where I said "AA or die" without some qualification around it.



I insist you explain this statement.



Sure, why not?



Improve it? Sure. How?

"Alter it's (sic) holy bible". Firstly, how would that help? It is a largely historical document showing where AA came from and how early success was achieved. A lot has changed since then and as I said earlier, many many local members have far longer sobriety than any of the founders. Neither Bill or Bob ever suggested they had the first or last word on recovery; they - like everyone else - simply explained what worked for them.



Tha would be my experience too.



Is it more idiotic for the alcoholic to drink themselves to death rather than actually try AA?
Is it more idiotic for someone to gamble, drink or drug their income before feeding the family than trying AA?
Is it more idiotic to wet the bed each night than try AA?
Is it more idiotic to soil ones pants frequently than to try spirituality?
Is it more idiotic to lose one's job and livelihood through drink rather than try AA?
Is it more idiotic (aside - I could go on all day here - to continue to drink and drive with children in the car than give AA a go.
Is it more idiotic for the addict to steal from family, friends and strangers that to try 12 step fellowships?
Is it more idiotic to sell one's body to get drug money than try AA?

Seriously, what is the more idiotic?



So nothing is better than something? Gotcha.

Hang on, what?
Done.
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Old 25th July 2010, 08:53 PM   #232
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I am the child of an alcoholic who was untreated for twenty-five years. She collapsed and went through in-patient treatment followed by AA. She emerged dry but religious.

I told her that I wish she hadn't 'gotten religion' in AA (which my fundamentalist brother took advantage of), but that I was glad she was alive, and that I considered that a good bargain.

My partner turned out to be alcoholic. He went through a variety of programs, none of them AA, dying a few years ago of a heart attack at a young age. There is little doubt that alcohol contributed to his early death. I lived with his alcoholism, and did what I could to help him deal with it, for nearly ten years.

Do not dare speak to me further.
I don't understand why you would reject AA then even if it were (as you say) religious. Your mother and partner had choices. Your mother accepted AA including her personally selected religious component and presumably found a happy sober life in AA.
It sound like the resentments you have are more about your perceived manipulations of your brother towards your mother than AA, she had her choices there too. But I obviously don't have all the facts.

It is absolutely true that AA has a religious component if you want one, it also has a spiuritual component, if you want one. Everything is a personal choice.

Your partner made his choices too, and at the end of the day that is all we have as human beings.
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Old 25th July 2010, 09:00 PM   #233
tsig
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Imagine that 5 - 13% still sober after one year. That's not bad going, wonder if any other therapy has anything near close to that? What's that? No, well whod have guessed?



.
Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post

Who said AA was more effective? Not me, no-one here that I recall. I have repeatedly said that AA does not have the market cornered on recovery. The fact is that most alcoholics die alcoholic deaths and absolutely nothing works 100% of the time.

You are making assertions of claims that have never been made, and that is rather dishonest.
The first quote seems to contradict the second.
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Old 25th July 2010, 09:02 PM   #234
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Done.
Epic fail - I asked for you to prove it without qualification - there was heaps in there, death being just one choice out of many I offered. But thanks for trying.

Alcohol kills alcoholics, remember? Not two weeks go by and I see someone reject the possibility of recovery (whether they try AA, rehab, detox or something else) and die. So why not try AA?

I wonder what would have happened if Complexity's partner tried AA? I wonder if he would have been one of the 9%?
Imagine that, 9% saved from death or worse because they went to AA, with or without religion.
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Old 25th July 2010, 09:06 PM   #235
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
The first quote seems to contradict the second.
Then you "seem" incorrect.
Can you show me something that has better results? If so great, I will stand corrected. In the meantime, the 9% is far better than an otherwise zero percent (well it did when I went to school). This simply shows that AA has a place in society for alcoholics to recover. Other things might work too, but you have yet to provide any data for that.
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Old 25th July 2010, 09:09 PM   #236
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Ignore the idiots Complexity :

Complexity, give up on those idiots - they are just as brainwashed as any other cult member. Nothing we say, not all the evidence I've presented and linked to showing the double-blind studies, the conclusions that going to AA is either the same as doing nothing, or actually worse than doing nothing - not all the clear as day (to anyone thinking critically) evidence in bill w's and bob's own words proving the AA program is religious (and - since it's near impossible to change, as per AA's own rules it takes a vote of 3/4 of the active members to change any portion of either the big book or the 12x12 - an impossible standard, since they don't even keep a membership list, so how ya gonna tell when you have 3/4ths of an unknown??) - none of this has any effect on closed minds (or cult indoctrinated minds) as we've all seen by a few posters here.
Luckily, I think some lurkers & other posters have gotten a true picture of the cultishness and religiosity of AA - a true picture of it's ineffectiveness - a real demonstration of the uncaring nature of the True Believers towards anyone who isn't a true believer - that our posts were worth it.
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Old 25th July 2010, 09:11 PM   #237
tsig
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Epic fail - I asked for you to prove it without qualification - there was heaps in there, death being just one choice out of many I offered. But thanks for trying.

Alcohol kills alcoholics, remember? Not two weeks go by and I see someone reject the possibility of recovery (whether they try AA, rehab, detox or something else) and die. So why not try AA?

I wonder what would have happened if Complexity's partner tried AA? I wonder if he would have been one of the 9%?
Imagine that, 9% saved from death or worse because they went to AA, with or without religion.
Just can't help contradicting yourself.
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Old 25th July 2010, 09:27 PM   #238
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Tinyal View Post
Complexity, give up on those idiots - they are just as brainwashed as any other cult member. Nothing we say, not all the evidence I've presented and linked to showing the double-blind studies, the conclusions that going to AA is either the same as doing nothing, or actually worse than doing nothing - not all the clear as day (to anyone thinking critically) evidence in bill w's and bob's own words proving the AA program is religious (and - since it's near impossible to change, as per AA's own rules it takes a vote of 3/4 of the active members to change any portion of either the big book or the 12x12 - an impossible standard, since they don't even keep a membership list, so how ya gonna tell when you have 3/4ths of an unknown??) - none of this has any effect on closed minds (or cult indoctrinated minds) as we've all seen by a few posters here.
Luckily, I think some lurkers & other posters have gotten a true picture of the cultishness and religiosity of AA - a true picture of it's ineffectiveness - a real demonstration of the uncaring nature of the True Believers towards anyone who isn't a true believer - that our posts were worth it.
But did AA work for you? presumably yes, as you still go and are sober (or so you would have us believe)
Did you reject the spirituality on offer. (again, presumably yes judging by your heartfelt disrespect of anything approaching having a religious or spiritual overtone).

You are proof that AA works without a religious/spiritual component.
You are proof that AA is not religious, and that people have a choice of accepting or rejecting anything and everything that is put on offer.
And you are proof of tolerance that anyone in AA can hold any view on anything - AA is about sobriety (remember what "primary purpose" is?), the rest is personal opinions and choice.

And I repeat:

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking
The steps are suggested (page 59 chapter 3)


Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Just can't help contradicting yourself.
Nice try, but fail again.
Once again, death is just one option, "worse" covers the many, many other possibilities that can/will/might occur if one is an alcoholic and continues to drink.

Why can't you understand this? Alcohol kills alcoholics.
Show me otherwise if you can (which you can't).

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 25th July 2010 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 09:42 PM   #239
marplots
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Marplots, would it be fair to say you simply reached the point of exit in your personal 'stages of change'?
Many do, many stay in AA.
AA Alfie,

Here is how it seemed from my perspective. I went through a crash rehab, an arrest and job loss and a cycle of AA and NA.

Losing a habit (drugs or alcohol) leaves a gaping hole in your life. Not just external life, but internal as well. A whole way of being, of acting in the world, is gone. For it to remain gone, that hole has to be filled. Both the time spent on an addiction and the the other resources -- emotional and financial -- have to be applied elsewhere. If they are not, what has changed?

For many, AA or NA filled that hole. Many used the groups to replace abuse with something less harmful. For me, after a few months of regular attendance (I did 90 in 90 and stuck around afterward) I was burned out. The meetings all seemed the same. They seemed like reruns. The faces changed, but the stories remained the same.

I wasn't committed to either the 12 steps or the larger society of AA/NA. I had no wish to attend conferences or make addiction anything more than an uncomfortable footnote in my epitaph. So I quit going. I'm clean/sober for (and I had to calculate this figure, I don't think of it much) about ten years. I have a couple of beers now and again, and I'd probably do a bit of weed if it wasn't so much of a bother to track it down...

So, I think under the rules of the game I was never really an addict in the first place, although I think I have aspects of my personality that mirror addictive behavior. I suppose the line isn't so cut and dried as the literature sometimes makes out.

I read the model you posted, I just couldn't fit myself into it. The most powerful thing for me was the stories of other addicts and drunks. I did not want to be them. I was them, but I didn't want to be them. The group did it's job in driving me away. Pretty much the same thing happened with Amway and Christianity (not saying AA is the same as those) -- I didn't fit in and I didn't want to fit in. I let my ego work on my behalf. But AA did help me a lot, it just wasn't right for the long-term.

And there are at least two AAs. The acute and the chronic. The acute, in my opinion, is the most helpful. But the acute depends on a few strong individuals who go chronic. I hope you get that.
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Old 25th July 2010, 10:43 PM   #240
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
AA Alfie,

Here is how it seemed from my perspective. I went through a crash rehab, an arrest and job loss and a cycle of AA and NA.

Losing a habit (drugs or alcohol) leaves a gaping hole in your life. Not just external life, but internal as well. A whole way of being, of acting in the world, is gone. For it to remain gone, that hole has to be filled. Both the time spent on an addiction and the the other resources -- emotional and financial -- have to be applied elsewhere. If they are not, what has changed?

For many, AA or NA filled that hole. Many used the groups to replace abuse with something less harmful. For me, after a few months of regular attendance (I did 90 in 90 and stuck around afterward) I was burned out. The meetings all seemed the same. They seemed like reruns. The faces changed, but the stories remained the same.

I wasn't committed to either the 12 steps or the larger society of AA/NA. I had no wish to attend conferences or make addiction anything more than an uncomfortable footnote in my epitaph. So I quit going. I'm clean/sober for (and I had to calculate this figure, I don't think of it much) about ten years. I have a couple of beers now and again, and I'd probably do a bit of weed if it wasn't so much of a bother to track it down...

So, I think under the rules of the game I was never really an addict in the first place, although I think I have aspects of my personality that mirror addictive behavior. I suppose the line isn't so cut and dried as the literature sometimes makes out.

I read the model you posted, I just couldn't fit myself into it. The most powerful thing for me was the stories of other addicts and drunks. I did not want to be them. I was them, but I didn't want to be them. The group did it's job in driving me away. Pretty much the same thing happened with Amway and Christianity (not saying AA is the same as those) -- I didn't fit in and I didn't want to fit in. I let my ego work on my behalf. But AA did help me a lot, it just wasn't right for the long-term.

And there are at least two AAs. The acute and the chronic. The acute, in my opinion, is the most helpful. But the acute depends on a few strong individuals who go chronic. I hope you get that.
Thanks Marplots.
I think I understand where you are coming from (acute and chronic).

If I was to put you into a category of the stages of change it would be in "exit"; you made a decision, put in the action and made the required changes, done a period of maintenance and have now exited with new behavious and coping tools.

Congratulations; well done you.
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