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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 26th July 2010, 04:52 AM   #241
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Why? (Attempted move of goalposts noted).

Who said AA was more effective? Not me, no-one here that I recall.
Well you did

Quote:
Imagine that 5 - 13% still sober after one year. That's not bad going, wonder if any other therapy has anything near close to that? What's that? No, well whod have guessed
That directly says no other therapy even comes close to the effectiveness of AA. Now what was that about moving goalposts?
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Old 26th July 2010, 04:55 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by godofpie View Post
That was him. That was then. This is us. This is now. Evolution. What a concept.
BTW tldr
So what replaced that book as the repository for modern doctrine?
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Old 26th July 2010, 05:00 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Then you "seem" incorrect.
Can you show me something that has better results? If so great, I will stand corrected. In the meantime, the 9% is far better than an otherwise zero percent (well it did when I went to school). This simply shows that AA has a place in society for alcoholics to recover. Other things might work too, but you have yet to provide any data for that.
They are blatantly incompatable. In one you explicitly state that AA is more effective, and in the later one you claim no one made this claim. You are being blatantly dishonest.

If you want to lie, you should at least lie about things that are not there for everyone to see your lies.
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Old 26th July 2010, 05:43 AM   #244
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Perhaps I could have been clearer. That said, your lack of understanding is not really my problem.

But do you have these other stats? I am genuinely interested in what methods of recovery achieve success.
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Old 26th July 2010, 09:32 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They are blatantly incompatable. In one you explicitly state that AA is more effective, and in the later one you claim no one made this claim. You are being blatantly dishonest.

If you want to lie, you should at least lie about things that are not there for everyone to see your lies.
I noticed that when contradictions within his own statements were pointed out he quit replying to me.
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Old 26th July 2010, 11:10 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Perhaps I could have been clearer. That said, your lack of understanding is not really my problem.

But do you have these other stats? I am genuinely interested in what methods of recovery achieve success.
I have no opinion on what works best. But just thinking of a friend who just decided one day around 6 years ago to quit, and hasn't had a drink since then. How would someone like him show up in statistics? I wonder how many people there are like that.
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Old 26th July 2010, 01:46 PM   #247
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Several controlled or double-blind studies have shown that out of a given group of problem drinkers, approximately 5% quit on their own - without any sort of program or treatment, they simply decided they'd had enough punishment.

This 5% number is significant, as it's exactly the same as the average quit rate produced by attending AA. (again, quit rate determined by those who initially attended AA by whatever means -court, self directed, family directed, treatment center, etc & were still sober 1 year later).

The conclusion from data from AA's own triennial surveys combined with the studies that have been done (with some difficulty, as AA is not cooperative in providing data) over the years is that doing nothing - simply deciding one has had enough - is just as effective as going to AA and having religion shoved down one's throat..

Those people who start babbling about AA only suggesting are just fooling themselves (as well as fooling 100's of thousands of people every year, and the massive 12 step recovery business/treatment centers/insurance providers) - what people are told in AA in the big book & 12x12 is take our suggestions or die of alcholism - or die in prison - or die in an insane institution.

These people being introduced to AA are lead to believe AA has a cure (or forced to attend by the legal system) are in an extremely vulnerable position. Coupling that emotive state with strong group pressure to 'accept our suggestions or die' (ie - go back and drink some more - reinforced by the group/peer 'suggestion' that to continue to drink is to die) reveals the lie about 'suggestions' quite completely. I personally have seen this occur 1000's of times at meetings I myself attended over a period of 21 years - this personal experience matches the studies (espescially those studies by George Valiant - a Trustee of AA Inc) exactly.

All this is quite clear to those who examine the data critically - unless, of course, you've been cult brainwashed or religiously converted (AA's primary goal - as stated in the official AA material) is to make the member do gods will & help others to achieve sobriety - you won't hear 'stay sober & help others to achieve sobriety' anywhere in the big book (except where AA's big book & other material says that just being sober isn't good enough ) as a primary goal, unless it's connected to 'and do god's will'.

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Old 26th July 2010, 03:14 PM   #248
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You keep saying stuff like this and draw on the opinions of individuals withing the big book and elsewhere.

Why?

They have never said, "my way or the highway" or similar and if they did it related to their personal views.

I obviously have to repeat:

Tradition three:
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

The 12 steps are suggested (ch5, p59)

If someone is telling you to do something else, it is their opinion. Any religion is individual.

And no matter how you want to twist words, the fact remains: NOTHING IS COMPULSORY.

And on the "do AA or die message" (or similar), are you suggesting that people do not die (every day) from alcoholism?
If 9% can find relief within AA (with or withour religion) surely that is a good thing.

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Old 26th July 2010, 03:21 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I noticed that when contradictions within his own statements were pointed out he quit replying to me.
Nothing deliberate tsig, I assure you.

If I have contradicted myself in this thread, no probs, I will see if I can explain. So, please show me the relevant posts and I will elaborate.
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Old 26th July 2010, 07:57 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what replaced that book as the repository for modern doctrine?
I guess the best answer to that is oral history.
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:01 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by godofpie View Post
I guess the best answer to that is oral history.
Seems more religious than some religions I can name, like a quaker meeting.
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:06 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Seems more religious than some religions I can name, like a quaker meeting.
Really?
What are their requirements for membership?
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:07 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
You call it BS, I call it life saving
Life saving, soul crushing.

A "help" group that tells me that I have a "disease", which is clearly not the case, that I can't do anything about it, which is clearly not the case, that I'm worthless, which varies with the individual, and that my only hope for salvation is to allow a nonsensical, imaginary being into my heard is not only deeply religious, but dangerous and harmful.
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:09 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Can the higher power be the planet Jupiter? It's obviously higher and more powerful than me.
It's also obviously more powerful than god.
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:16 AM   #255
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[quote=Belz...;6164346]Life saving, soul crushing.

Quote:
A "help" group that tells me that I have a "disease", which is clearly not the case,
Best tell the World Health Authority, AMA and other national health groups that you think they are wrong - they probably want your approval.

Quote:
that I can't do anything about it, which is clearly not the case,
Incorrect again. You don't pick up the first drink if you are an alcoholic. That's what you do.

Quote:
that I'm worthless, which varies with the individual,
You are going to have to show me where it or anyone says someone is worthless. In fact the opposite is true.

[quote] and that my only hope for salvation is to allow a nonsensical, imaginary being into my heard is not only deeply religious,

Wrong again. Salvation (whatever that is, is up to the individual), getting sober depends on making some effort to do so.

Quote:
but dangerous and harmful.
Please explain this last bit. A few people have suggested it is "dangerous", "harmful" or similar. I fail to see how stopping drinking could be harmful to an alcoholic (save for detox, which should be medically supervised in some instances), it might actually save their life.

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Old 27th July 2010, 04:18 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's also obviously more powerful than god.......

as you understand him.
Fixed that for you.
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:30 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Really?
What are their requirements for membership?
Showing up. And they preach at you so much less than the AA people in this thread. See they by and large sit around in silence.
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:42 AM   #258
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lol

Imagine that, agnostics "preaching" sobriety in this thread, and atheists and non alcoholics thinking its religion.
Talk about confirmation bias!
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Old 27th July 2010, 05:14 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Life saving, soul crushing.

A "help" group that tells me that I have a "disease", which is clearly not the case, that I can't do anything about it, which is clearly not the case, that I'm worthless, which varies with the individual, and that my only hope for salvation is to allow a nonsensical, imaginary being into my heard is not only deeply religious, but dangerous and harmful.
Sounds a lot like Christianity. You are a sinner, you can't do anything about it, you are worthless and your only hope is to turn your life over to Jesus.

Maybe there's a pattern here.
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Old 27th July 2010, 05:18 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Sounds a lot like Christianity. You are a sinner, you can't do anything about it, you are worthless and your only hope is to turn your life over to Jesus.

Maybe there's a pattern here.
lol
There would be if any of those things were actually said.

You guys clearly don't know your subject or are deliberately lying.

Tsig, where was it in this thread you pointed out an apparent contradiction? I would like to clarify it for you if possible.
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Old 27th July 2010, 08:35 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
lol
There would be if any of those things were actually said.

You guys clearly don't know your subject or are deliberately lying.
So you've been to every AA group on the planet? Or you know for a fact that AA groups do not vary at all?
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Old 27th July 2010, 09:09 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Best tell the World Health Authority, AMA and other national health groups that you think they are wrong - they probably want your approval.
Don't make this personal. The point is that addiction is not a disease: it's a habit, one that is decidedly intentional.

Quote:
Incorrect again. You don't pick up the first drink if you are an alcoholic. That's what you do.
Are you agreeing with me ?

Quote:
Wrong again. Salvation (whatever that is, is up to the individual), getting sober depends on making some effort to do so.
Since one of the twelve steps involves abdicating to a higher power, I think "effort" doesn't quite cut it.

Quote:
Please explain this last bit. A few people have suggested it is "dangerous", "harmful" or similar. I fail to see how stopping drinking could be harmful to an alcoholic
Making them think that god made them quit is very, very dangerous, and false.
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Old 27th July 2010, 09:10 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Fixed that for you.
God doesn't exist. Therefore he is weaker than any extant entity.
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Old 27th July 2010, 09:11 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
lol
There would be if any of those things were actually said.

You guys clearly don't know your subject or are deliberately lying.

Tsig, where was it in this thread you pointed out an apparent contradiction? I would like to clarify it for you if possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo
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Old 27th July 2010, 06:19 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
So you've been to every AA group on the planet? Or you know for a fact that AA groups do not vary at all?
Good point. You are correct, I don't know what happens at every group, and they do vary in line with their individual structures. What I do know is that everyone in AA has their own opinion and their own recovery. The steps and traditions outline the 'rules', of which there are none.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Don't make this personal. The point is that addiction is not a disease: it's a habit, one that is decidedly intentional.
In your opinion, but the experts disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you agreeing with me ?
To a point. There is plenty that can be done, it is a matter of being prepared to do it. Powerless (to me) refers to what happens after the first drink. I cannot guarantee my behaviour.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Since one of the twelve steps involves abdicating to a higher power, I think "effort" doesn't quite cut it.
Not quite, the 12 steps suggest that a higher power can restore us to sanity. This is not abdication in the terms you put it.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Making them think that god made them quit is very, very dangerous, and false.
No-one makes anyone do anything. If they choose to believe that, that is just fine.
By the way, it may be false, but how is it dangerous?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
God doesn't exist. Therefore he is weaker than any extant entity.
Fair enough. But again, you are banging on about a god that does not come into a lot of AAs thinking and recovery.
A power greater than myself - say, the group of drunks - is more powerful than me, and can help restore me to sanity (i.e. get sober).


eta, I will try and look at you video tonight.

Cheers

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Old 27th July 2010, 06:44 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wo...p-do-any-good/
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Old 28th July 2010, 01:05 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Now I'm just disappointed ; Penn and Teller! Meh, why didn't you put on the South Park episode instead?

Are you saying the opinions of a couple of entertainers outweigh the collective wisdom of the World Health Authority, Addiction recovery industry leaders etc?
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Old 28th July 2010, 02:25 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by godofpie View Post
Great. So having people around you to help is good. Point stands.
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Old 28th July 2010, 02:26 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Now I'm just disappointed ; Penn and Teller! Meh, why didn't you put on the South Park episode instead?

Are you saying the opinions of a couple of entertainers outweigh the collective wisdom of the World Health Authority, Addiction recovery industry leaders etc?
Ad hominem. Strawman.

Do you have any actual comment on the CONTENT of the video ?
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Old 28th July 2010, 02:40 AM   #270
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Why not run a whole stack of entertainers to support their point? I could show you some Billy Connelley that has a different perspective. Hmm, who to believe?
Oh! I know, maybe someone who is qualified to make a determination like the AMA, World Health Organisation et al and not some (supposed) psychologist who supports their view

Maybe Penn and Teller don't think cancer is a disease either, they say they do in the video and draw direct comparisons - curiously the Health Organisations all over the world do think both cancer and alcoholism disease. Hmm, Penn and Teller don't. Who to believe?

So, are they qualified to comment?
Sure, just as much as any other lay person. But in their opening they make a point of outlining they know eff all about it.

Does that mean they are correct and their opinion overrides that of the leading health organisations?
Um...., no.

I will watch Penn and Teller for entertainment, not the science of addiction and disease.

Cheers.

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Old 28th July 2010, 04:06 AM   #271
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http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...com/alcoholism

Quote:
Sessions led by peers, where recovering alcoholics meet regularly and provide support for each other's recoveries, are considered among the best methods of preventing a return to drinking (relapse). Perhaps the most well-known such group is called Alcoholics Anonymous, which uses a "12-step" model to help people avoid drinking. These steps involve recognizing the destructive power that alcohol has held over the alcoholic's life, looking to a higher power for help in overcoming the problem, and reflecting on the ways in which the use of alcohol has hurt others and, if possible, making amends to those people. According to a recent study reported by the American Psychological Association (APA), anyone, regardless of his or her religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs, can benefit from participation in 12-step programs such as Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) or Narcotics Anonymous (NA). The number of visits to 12-step self-help groups exceeds the number of visits to all mental health professionals combined.
Wow!
Even the APA reckon it doesn't matter if one is religious or not.

and

http://www.medicinenet.com/alcohol_a...sm/article.htm

Quote:
Is alcoholism a disease?

Yes, alcoholism is a disease. The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems.

Like many other diseases, alcoholism is chronic, meaning that it lasts a person's lifetime; it usually follows a predictable course; and it has symptoms. The risk for developing alcoholism is influenced both by a person's genes and by his or her lifestyle.
And this, definitions updated in 2008

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upl...atementuad.pdf

Quote:
H-30.995 Alcoholism as a Disability
1. The AMA believes it is important for professionals and laymen alike to recognize that alcoholism is in and of itself a disabling and handicapping condition.
2. The AMA encourages the availability of appropriate services to persons suffering from multiple disabilities or multiple handicaps, including alcoholism.
3. The AMA endorses the position that printed and audiovisual materials pertaining to the subject of people suffering from both alcoholism and other disabilities include the terminology "alcoholic person with multiple disabilities or alcoholic person with multiple handicaps." Hopefully, this language clarification will reinforce the concept that alcoholism is in and of itself a disabling and handicapping condition. (CSA Rep. H, I-80; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep.B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA ep. 14, A-97)

H-95.983 Drug Dependencies as Diseases
The AMA
1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a legitimate part of medical practice, and
2. encourages physicians, other health professionals, medical and other health related organizations, and government and other policymakers to become more well informed about drug dependencies, and to base their policies and activities on the recognition that drug dependencies are, in fact, diseases. (Res. 113, A-87)

H-30.997 Dual Disease Classification of Alcoholism
The AMA reaffirms its policy endorsing the dual classification of alcoholism under both the psychiatric and medical sections of the International Classification of Diseases. (Res. 22, I-79; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. B, I-89; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
So much for Penn and Teller.

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Old 28th July 2010, 06:58 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Maybe Penn and Teller don't think cancer is a disease either,
You don't have a choice whether you have a disease or not. Alcoholism is a choice. Just like eating disorders. If you claim they are a disease then you remove responsability from yourself.

No wonder they seek a higher power...

If Alcoholism is a disease then so is every hobby when it becomes addictive. The definition of disease becomes so vague as to be unusable and meaningless.
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Old 28th July 2010, 04:08 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You don't have a choice whether you have a disease or not. Alcoholism is a choice. Just like eating disorders. If you claim they are a disease then you remove responsability from yourself.
You are half right here.
Alcoholism is not a choice, drinking is. One will rarely know of they are going to be an alcoholic until it is too late.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If Alcoholism is a disease then so is every hobby when it becomes addictive. The definition of disease becomes so vague as to be unusable and meaningless.
Hobbies become obsessive, not addictive - the word addictive is being misused here. Hobbies are a mental obsession only. Addiction is the physical dependance coupled with the mental obsession.
The physical dependance is the what moves it from (say) a mental disorder to a disease.

I hope that helps clear things up.
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Old 28th July 2010, 08:15 PM   #274
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AA Alfie-
I am coming to the conclusion that (most) of the people in this thread that are arguing against AA don't have any real desire to learn about AA or how it really works (which is different for different people). I would like to direct any of the those that are sincerely interested in more info about AA and how it works read this thread I found on AA when I first joined the forum.
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Old 28th July 2010, 09:10 PM   #275
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Still catching up with this thread, so my apologies if I cover ground that has already been addressed.

As to the OP, why the insistence that AA is a religeous program? That it has some roots in Christianity is undeniable, as is the fact that there are certainly particular groups that are overtly evangelistic about their brand of religion, but AA as a whole is religiously neutral in that it neither favors nor disfavors any particular religion.

To wit: my home group has explicitly decided to NOT use the Lord's Prayer as we wish to not offend or exclude anyone.

Moreover, one of the fundamental precepts of AA is that if you don't like how AA is being implemented in a particular group, you are free to start your own! Want a group that avoids the 'G' word? Go ahead and make one. There's a group locally that does just that.

Lastly (for this post), there is nothing about 'God' that need be supernatural (that's the basic point behind the 'doorknob' saying, it's not meant to be taken too literally). The part about reliance on a higher power is symbolically an acceptance of outside help. My higher power is in fact 'not me.'

More on some specific points later
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Old 28th July 2010, 10:36 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I noticed that when contradictions within his own statements were pointed out he quit replying to me.
Still waiting for where this occured in this thread. Seems you might have been lying?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Life saving, soul crushing.

... snip ... but dangerous and harmful.
You have yet to explain this. Or was this some alarmism you made up for good measure?
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Old 29th July 2010, 12:28 AM   #277
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I read the first couple of pages on this thread and the last couple, so forgive me if anyone has already covered the following:

Quote:
Service Material from the General Service Office
THE TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Copyright A.A. World Services, Inc.
Rev.5/9/02
Quote:
Service Material from the General Service Office
THE TWELVE TRADITIONS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
(SHORT FORM)

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
5. Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.
10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.
12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Copyright A.A. World Services, Inc.
Rev.5/9/02
These are directly quoted from the OFFICIAL website of the GSO of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA is a RELIGION. End of Story.

Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is an international mutual aid movement claiming over 2 million members and declaring that its "primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety". AA was founded in 1935 by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith (Bill W. and Dr. Bob) in Akron, Ohio. Along with other early members, Wilson and Smith developed AA's program of spiritual and character development, the Twelve Steps. The Twelve Traditions are AA's recommendations for its groups stressing: anonymity, altruism, and inclusion of all who want to stop drinking. The Traditions also try to steer AA clear of dogma, affiliation with other entities, internal governing hierarchies and involvement in public issues. Subsequent fellowships, such as Narcotics Anonymous, have adopted the Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions.

Until a Catholic joined in 1939, AA was Protestant-only. Since then AA has spread "across diverse cultures holding different beliefs and values", including geopolitical areas resistant to grassroots movements, by staying unaffiliated from other organizations and by avoiding public controversies.

Although AA views discussions on the medical nature of alcoholism as beyond its scope, AA is regarded as a proponent and popularizer of the disease theory of alcoholism. The American Psychiatric Association has recommended sustained treatment in conjunction with AA's program, or similar community resources, for chronic alcoholics unresponsive to brief treatment. AA's own data state that 64% drop out of AA in their first year, but its program is credited with helping many alcoholics achieve and maintain sobriety.

AA got its name from its first book titled Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered From Alcoholism. Informally known as "the Big Book of AA" - with the subtitle later amended to say "...Many Thousands of Men and Women..." - it describes AA's program, details AA's early history, and contains brief inspirational autobiographies of AA members.
Having been to my ex-stepfather's AA meetings, and read much of the literature, participated briefly in NA, and done a brief study of AA's history, I can attest to the accuracy Wikipedia's AA entry. I also noticed the tendency of many participants in AA to simply switch addictions. Many of my ex-stepfather's meetings were conducted in smoke-filled, caffienated, donut munching sessions.

It is likely, though debatable, that one or two of the twelve steps might actually be psychologically beneficial, but it is astounding that the APA still gives AA any credibility at all. Likewise, it is obvious that support groups can be beneficial, but the structural model of AA and it's derivatives offer nothing more than a support system--only with the added baggage of its religious tenets (and make no mistake, the 12 steps are clearly religious tenets. And for all that AA's rhetoric is that there are 'no rules', this is belied if you actually challenge any of the Steps). There is no sound Empirical Basis for most of the 12 steps in any psychological, psychiatric, or neurological system.

Nearly all other 12 step programs are based almost entirely on AA's model. And the Judicial system DOES force people into these programs all the time, which amounts to State sanctioning of Religion.

There are many reasons for Alcoholism, ranging from socio-psychological traumas, political-economic traumas, mere hedonistic inculcation, habituation, and neurological predilections, or a combination thereof.

The AA model of Alcoholism prevention is not "Disease", as it purports to be, but "Sin". It is plausible that some forms of Alcoholism do fit into the "Disease" model, but even to apply that model across the board is a clear mistake--a trap that many in the Medical Community fall into.

Still, insofar as some forms of Alcoholism may respond to Medical Therapy, a scientific approach of treating the underlying neurological causes instead of the symptoms (self-medicating with alcohol or other drugs) is a far better approach to treatment.

Psychological and Psychiatric professionals can also help some "addicts" work through the underlying causes of their problems, such as dealing with depression, schizophrenia, and other issues directly. And other Medical professionals can help people who are often dealing with Chronic Pain issues by self-medicating.

In some cases, the religiously inclined CAN respond better to help from religious programs, but only if their "addictions" aren't masking deeper problems.

In many cases, "addiction" runs rampant in the politically and economically dispossessed and oppressed communities. In which case the best "cure" is political/economic enfranchisement and the curbing of Economic Exploitation.

In conclusion: I am no expert, but I think it should be clear that the Religious and Disease models of addiction often obfuscate the fact that addictive patterns of behaviour are more often than not, SYMPTOMS of deeper problems, for which many people self-medicate.

Personally, I think 12 Step programs are the worst approach, not simply because of the religious issue, but also because they rarely help people discover the underlying problem they are self-medicating for, instead MASKING the problem with Religious Rhetoric.

Some of the most successful programs have been experimental programs in Europe with psychotropics such as Ibogaine, which gives people a chance to "break" their obsessive patterns of behaviour, which in turn gives people a chance to discover the underlying causes of their problems.

My recommendations for reading materials includes:

The Diseasing of America by Stanton Peele-- an excellent resource even if he does overstate his case a bit (clearly, the disease model may be appropriate in some cases where the cause might have a neurological basis). But first and foremost Peele dispels the conflation of the religious model with the disease model, and examines many of the problems with the disease model itself.

I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional by Wendy Kaminer-- which examines the self-help movement over-all from the Pseudoscience of 12 steps to New Age "therapies".

GB

EDIT: After going back and reading through the rest of the posts, I must offer Special Kudos to Tinyal for largely sticking to the Empirical Evidence that proves beyond a Reasonable Doubt that AA and its offshoots are inherently religious, not particularly successful (as far as actually helping addicts), and occasionally dangerous. The Sophistry, Conflation, and Obfuscation of deniers like AAAlfie is almost painful to behold.

The reason people like AAAlfie claim AA is not religious, is because they want to peddle their pseudo-scientific religion as science (all the better to reap "Converts"), just as Intelligent Design is Creationism dressed up as Pseudo-science. Marplotsmakes some cogent points in his post on the last page, though I think his point regarding the "backpedalling on God" is a bit of an overstatement. Sobriety IS a key issue, but it doesn't overshadow the imposition of God in AA.

The whole set up is based on Sin, Confession, and Absolution. One can fall off the wagon all the time ("One day at a time"), but as long as you show up, Confess your Sins, and Pray with your Brethren for Absolution, you're good to go--until the next time you fall off the wagon. I have sat in on meetings which had people who had been in and out for years. Their Lurid Confessions (the juicier the better) and renewed Vows would bring the loudest applause.

To continue the repetition that the Steps and Rules are merely Suggestions is beyond specious, and beyond disingenuous; it is a LIE. As other posters have pointed out, the Steps ARE the program (God and all), and this is drummed into every AA Adherent. In the same way, the proposition that one can claim God is a Doorknob, is simply an Obfuscation that a Belief in God is a foundational requirement for the 12 Steps.
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Last edited by Gandalfs Beard; 29th July 2010 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 29th July 2010, 01:53 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
These are directly quoted from the OFFICIAL website of the GSO of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA is a RELIGION. End of Story.
Bits from the Boy Scouts of America Oath and Law
Quote:
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

Reverent – A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Are the Boy Scouts a religion?


The US Congressional Oath:
Quote:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
Is Congress a religion?


I don't deny that AA has many of the characteristics of a religion, and it certainly borrows language and concepts from religion (Christianity in particular), but it fails to qualify as a religion in and of itself.

I posit that one of the defining characteristics of a religion is that one cannot belong to more than one at a time. (I'll note that by this definition, certain modern movements like universalism aren't clearly religions either)
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Old 29th July 2010, 02:33 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
You are half right here.
Alcoholism is not a choice, drinking is. One will rarely know of they are going to be an alcoholic until it is too late.
But alcoholism IS drinking. Look at me for instance: I have trouble staying away from food. Candy and chocolate, specifically. It's an addiction, to a degree, but I'll be damned if someone calls it a disease.

Quote:
Hobbies become obsessive, not addictive - the word addictive is being misused here. Hobbies are a mental obsession only. Addiction is the physical dependance coupled with the mental obsession.
The physical dependance is the what moves it from (say) a mental disorder to a disease.
Pray tell, then, at what point does something become "mental" and not "physical", or vice-versa ? The brain is a physical structure, so I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to tell me that physical dependency to a hobby cannot exist, especially since pleasure is chemical. Someone can become addicted to the pleasure associated with an activity, for instance. Isn't physical dependency to those endorphins your body produces correspond to an "addiction" ?
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Old 29th July 2010, 02:35 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
You have yet to explain this. Or was this some alarmism you made up for good measure?
How am I "yet to explains this", exactly ?

Religious cults are dangerous and harmful. Cloaking such religiosity in a veil of salvation for desperate people, if done intentionally, is downright evil.
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