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Old 4th December 2007, 07:10 PM   #121
cyclonic
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
GOVERNMENT SHILL!!

There is no possible way that you are in the 9/11 truth movement (okay, maybe one...).

-Sporanox
Which one is that?
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:13 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by cyclonic View Post
Which one is that?
That he actually believes what he's saying...

-Sporanox
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:16 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
GOVERNMENT SHILL!!

There is no possible way that you are in the 9/11 truth movement (okay, maybe one...). You're just attempting to make it look even worse than it was before.



See, here you go again. You obviously believe that this panel would logically pick from the thousands of structural engineers whose views are most applicable to this matter, and they would debunk 9/11 Truth. So you're dooming the truth investigation from the start. SHILL!

-Sporanox
Right here is the exact reason why the truth movement gets noplace and a prime example of some person's imagination run amok.
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:19 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Astute Perspicuous View Post
Right here is the exact reason why the truth movement gets noplace and a prime example of some person's imagination run amok.
You can say anything you want when you're disinfo...

-Sporanox
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:26 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
You can say anything you want when you're disinfo...

-Sporanox
And you can get away with saying anything you want when you're a kid.

Please, grow up a lil or I will be forced to just ignore your postings for what they are...Baby talk.
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:28 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
I think there are two 9/11 signs near the front right beside the orange peace symbol. Or at least they are similar signs.
There are, they are partially covered up though.

Talking about partially covered, Gravy you didn't get photos did you?
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:42 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
I think there are two 9/11 signs near the front right beside the orange peace symbol. Or at least they are similar signs.
You are right, I withdraw my previous claim of "no woo".

I guess this is a micro example of how research is done. Make an observation, gather evidence from multiple sources, get several analysts involved, revise the hypothesis, admit when you are wrong, and blame it on the truther.
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:42 PM   #128
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Quote:
And you can get away with saying anything you want when you're a kid.

Please, grow up a lil or I will be forced to just ignore your postings for what they are...Baby talk.
Okay, I guess I'll reveal it to you now. I was being sarcastic. The point is that this is exactly what truthers do to anybody in the truther movement that you don't agree with.

In fact, you've even gone so far to apparently support the conclusion that Osama bin Laden's videos that claim responsibility for 9/11 are disinfo. For no reason other than they disagree with your opinion.

-Sporanox
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:46 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Proof that the official story is a lie.
Originally Posted by Astute Perspicuous View Post
and that proof would be?
Isn't that your job, to provide the proof?
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Old 4th December 2007, 07:52 PM   #130
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Quote:
while all the [intelligence services] of America and Europe ... now know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the CIA American and the Mossad with the aid of the Zionist world in order to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part ... in Iraq [and] Afghanistan. "
so what if the man who said this is a former leader of Italy if what he claims is true why have all these intelligence services (aren't there plenty in Europe who do not like the US and Bush) not mentioned it much.
And what is the supposed evidence that would allow all these agencies to know this "fact" well.
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Old 4th December 2007, 08:13 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Reality Believer View Post
You are right, I withdraw my previous claim of "no woo".

I guess this is a micro example of how research is done. Make an observation, gather evidence from multiple sources, get several analysts involved, revise the hypothesis, admit when you are wrong, and blame it on the truther.

It is the same street, though, just a little further "down stream". You can tell by using that dark gray, block... thing... that's on the right-hand side of both images as a landmark.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 4th December 2007 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 5th December 2007, 03:52 AM   #132
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And that proof would be?

Originally Posted by Astute Perspicuous View Post
and that proof would be?
  • An analysis by a respectable, qualified structural engineer casting doubt on the collapse mechanism.
  • A witness who saw a missile strike the Pentagon.
  • A witness who saw explosives being planted in the WTC.
  • A confession by an intelligence operative to the conspiracy.
It isn't hard to think of many, many things that would constitute, if not proof, at least grounds to investigate further.

Things that don't constitute any kind of evidence whatsoever
  • Claims that the buildings fell faster than free fall speed.
  • Claims that the buildings fell straight down and shouldn't have, by unqualified people.
  • Claims that the buildings ejected material and shouldn't have, by unqualified people.
  • Pictures of where the plane didn't hit the Pentagon, coupled with an insistence that the hole should have been bigger.
And so on.

But the movement isn't interested in real proof, or a real investigation. I've suggested on a number of occasions that some member of the truth movement should just call up a structural engineer in Iran, or Russia, and ask him if he thinks the collapse of the WTC was impossible. They won't do this because they know what the answer will be. They know that their theories don't really apply to the real world.

AP could do this. He could look up the telephone number of some structural engineer far, far from American influence, and call him up and ask him what he thinks. He might not get anywhere - he might not be able to persuade them to give an opinion. But he could try. And he won't.
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Old 5th December 2007, 04:00 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I was in that march. If there were any 9/11 denier signs near me, I didn't notice them. Then again, I was next to the topless chicks for much of the march.
I don't think this can be taken as evidence of anything at all.

Perhaps Chill Zero could comment on this. The Chill Zero picture has changed once, and I for one am looking forward to the next one.
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Old 5th December 2007, 04:19 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
so what if the man who said this is a former leader of Italy
A minor point: in Italy, the President isn't really the leader of the nation. The Italian presidency is more like a figurehead position; the real political leader is the Prime Minister.
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Old 5th December 2007, 04:36 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
A minor point: in Italy, the President isn't really the leader of the nation. The Italian presidency is more like a figurehead position; the real political leader is the Prime Minister.
Cossiga has also been prime minister of Italy.

Of course, as has been pointed out before, it doesn't really matter.

A careful reading of the article in the Corriere della Sera leaves little doubt that Cossiga is being sarcastic about the perceived tendency of the Italian left to blame everything on Berlusconi, the Americans and the Zionists.

The "exceptional scoop" he announces in the article has (of course) failed to materialize.
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Old 5th December 2007, 04:48 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Astute Perspicuous View Post
A special tribunal set up by the people of America. Not "truther", not "Government officials"

A panel of private investigators, forensic scientists, and experts in many fields that did not have a bias view to start with.
I can just see it now. A panel that treats idiots like Fetzer and AJ as though they had something to say relevant to how the laws of physics work in THIS time/space continuum. Lame. What you are talking about sounds basicly like a cangaroo court that would make Chairman Moa proud. Or something like Hitler's Staatsgericht.

Until that dithering old moonbat Cossiga comes forward with some evidence, I shall simply write this off as another twoofer trouser cough.
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Old 5th December 2007, 05:01 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Astute Perspicuous View Post
Yup...With people like yourself with that "Can't Do" attitude, I guess you're most likely right. It will never get done.
I actually take your comments on my REALITY BASED attitude as a complement. One day you will hopefully grow up to realize what the world really works like, and to work positively WITHIN IT.

TAM

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Old 5th December 2007, 05:08 AM   #138
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AP:

You have accused others here of being infantile, meanwhile your suggestion of what should be done is as naive and fairytale-like as anything I have seen come from your movement.

The attitude of "I want a new investigation" but with out any realistic proposition for how it would be done is liken to the little girl who screams at her parents "I want a pony", but gives no consideration to the cost to purchase, the cost to feed it, cleaning up after it, or where the pony would be kept. Instead, her thinking is, "someone will do all that."

TAM
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Old 5th December 2007, 05:17 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by westprog View Post
I don't think this can be taken as evidence of anything at all.

Perhaps Chill Zero could comment on this. The Chill Zero picture has changed once, and I for one am looking forward to the next one.


I think my corndog is out of proportion.

Anyway, I agree with the point raised earlier, that it doesn't really matter who says that 911 was an inside job - unless they can provide some evidence to back it up. Why is this man being looked to as an authority on the matter? Particularly based on a shoddy translation.
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Old 5th December 2007, 05:26 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Astute Perspicuous View Post
Nope...they will ask you "WHY" you would think such a thing. They would ask you for your "speculation" as to "why" you think such a thing is happening.

It is up to them to "prove" it.

Nice subtle try at degradation.
No, its up to the person who makes the allegations to prove there is something to the claims, without evidence, speculation is worthless.

Libel as with Slander is a crime, if someone alleged on a website that you were a thief, and there was no evidence to even charge you with that; if you wanted, you could take them to court, sue them for libel, and recieve compensation.

...............................
As for sept 11th, the onus of proof is on you.

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Old 5th December 2007, 05:43 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Reality Believer View Post
Check this one out. Looks like an identical angle and location, but no 911 hoo ha. Came from here: http://www.dhadm.com/content/categor...war-on-terror/

Have been trying to find a higher resolution one, but no luck yet.
Its certainly the same location and angle, but not the same timing.
The twoofyness could have passed by the location or not arrived yet.
There is a hint of those pinkish coloured signs at the middle right of the photo?
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Old 5th December 2007, 07:53 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Cossiga
[A]ll democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left, are well aware that the disastrous attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and the Mossad with help from organized Zionists in order to accuse the Arab world and to induce the Western powers to intervene in both Iraq and Afghanistan ... For this reason no show of solidarity with Berlusconi [who is threatened in the audio by Bin Laden], the maker of this fake audio will come from the president, the prime minister or others from the centre-left".
So, he's saying that the Italian center-left are Truthers.

Cossiga himself, meanwhile, is on the right, being a member of the conservative Christian Democratic party.

So it seems that when he says that the center-left are Truthers, this is not so much an endorsement of Truthism as an insult aimed at the center-left. And aimed inaccurately, since, as the newspaper notes, they have expressed solidarity with Berlusconi. When Cossiga says that the Italian center-left are Truthers, he's lying.
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Old 5th December 2007, 09:19 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
When Cossiga says that the Italian center-left are Truthers, he's lying.
Literally, yes, but it does read like a roundabout way of saying that they're raving lunatics.
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Old 5th December 2007, 12:27 PM   #144
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The most ardent CTer I've encountered on another board responded with the infowars story on Cossiga in a thread on Zeitgeist there. I had done a factual take down on the claim that Krishna was "crucified" - and he responded with the infowars woo.

Came to this forum for some ammunition and found enough to take him down a peg or two.

I heart JREF!

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Old 5th December 2007, 12:33 PM   #145
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I'm starting to get the idea some of these Italian politicians should think before opening their damn mouths.
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Old 5th December 2007, 01:21 PM   #146
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Welcome to the forum Praktik.

Stick around, read a lot, and you will have A TONNE of info to help.

look up threads started by a user named Ref. He has a couple of threads where he has compiled a linkage to threads of evidence here at JREF for the various 9/11 topics.

AS well, go to the link in the signature of the user named "Gravy".

Have fun.

TAM
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Old 6th December 2007, 12:40 AM   #147
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Here is a link that gives some info about the Italian newspaper article. No full transcript though.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=7550

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Old 6th December 2007, 12:48 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Here is a link that gives some info about the Italian newspaper article. No full transcript though.
That's not information, that's the Truth.

... you know what I mean.

* has Orwell moment *
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Old 6th December 2007, 12:53 AM   #149
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other articles on this page:



America is Going Fascist
The signs are all there for anyone to see, and time is getting short for action
- by Michael Nenonen - 2007-12-03

The Plot to Rig the 2008 US Election
- by Johann Hari - 2007-11-30

Bush's World War Three
- by Michel Chossudovsky - 2007-10-17
The specter of a nuclear holocaust, which haunted the world for half a century has been relegated to the status of "collateral damage".


and the real kicker.....

"Doomsday Seed Vault" in the Arctic
- by F. William Engdahl - 2007-12-04
Bill Gates, Rockefeller and the GMO giants know something we don’t





bahahahahahah
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Old 6th December 2007, 12:57 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by tomwaits View Post

Bill Gates, Rockefeller and the GMO giants know something we don’t




Well, at least they got that bit right.
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Old 6th December 2007, 03:12 AM   #151
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Here you can read a (imho) correct translation of the article in Corriere della Sera.

(The translation seems to be the only correct thing on that blog, though. )

As noted before, the article starts as follows:
Quote:
«Based on what I've heard, either tomorrow or the day after, the biggest newspaper chain in our country will provide an exceptional scoop, evidence that the video [actually an audio, editor] in which Osama Bin Laden, leader of the 'Great and Powerful Movement of Islamic Retribution Al Qaeda', may Allah bless him!, which contains threats against [Italy's] ex-premier Silvio Berlusconi, is nothing but a forgery created in Mediaset's studios in Milan and forwarded to the Islamic TV network Al-Jazeerah which aired it». So stated the former President of the Republic [of Italy] Francesco Cossiga in a press release.
Needless to say that the announced "exceptional scoop" is nowhere to be found yet.
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Old 6th December 2007, 06:58 PM   #152
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BTW, who put the stuff in square brackets into the Twoofer "quote"? Twoof just seems to turn up by magic.

* thinks about "Twoof Fairy" joke, thinks better of it *

Where does it come from? Someone must have made the first mangled version that they all passed on, but how would one go about finding out who?

We know that there was only a matter of ... what? ... days? ... hours? ... between the actual quote and the doctored quote. Would it not be possible to find out, on this one occasion, where ************ comes from?

The trouble is, all the witnesses are Twoofers.
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Old 8th December 2007, 09:55 AM   #153
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Hi guys,

I'm from Italy, so I know very well the sarcasm of our former president Cossiga. Before doing a translation of the article, I'd like to point out that Cossiga does NOT thrust in CT about 9/11, and he said that a lot of time. Italian CTers (like Giulietto Chiesa) seems to have a very short memory, and while they point to his latest interview on Corriere della Sera thinking Cossiga is a CTer, they forget to mention many other interviews released by the former president, like this one on La Stampa (sorry, but the forum does not allow me to link) another important italian newspaper. (to be precise, this is not an interview but an article written by Cossiga himself)

I won't translate all this one, but just the most important sentence (BTW, if you are interested in the full translation, just ask me ^_^):

"Rifiuto la teorica «complottista» che è un'abile e talvolta sincera contraffazione della realtà per il timore di essa: Moro sarebbe stato rapito dalle «così dette» Brigate Rosse, strumento della CIA, o del KGB o della P2 o del… Priorato di Sion"

Which could be literally translated as follows (bold are by me):

"I refuse the conspiracy theory, which is a smart and sometimes sincere contrafaction of reality caused by the fear of that (reality).

He also says:

"Ricordando quanto «aperta» sia la società americana [...] mi sembra improbabile anzi impossibile che l’11 settembre sia stato frutto di un complotto americano"

"Rememering how is "open" american society, I think is very unlikely, I may say impossible, that 9/11 was an inside job".

So, as you can see, Cossiga isn't a CT, but just a man with a strange sense of humour.

After this introduction, I think is time to translate the interview you are talking about in this topic.
Bolds are by me

"As I've been told, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow (interview appeared on 30 november 07) the most important chain of newspaper of our country should give the proof, with an exceptional scoop, that the video (which in reality is an audio tape, NdR) in which appear Osama, leader of "the great and powerful movement of islamic revenge Al Quaeda" - God bless him! - and in which are formulated threats to our ex president Berlusconi, is nothing more than a fake realized inside Mediaset studios (the huge television group owned by Berlusconi) in Milan and sent to arabic television Al Jazeera.

The trap was organized to create solidarity for Berlusconi, which is having lot of problem related for the tangle between RAI and Mediaset. From sources near to Palazzo Chigi, the nevralgic center of italian intelligence, we know that the video is fake because Osama admits that he was the mind behind the attacks against the twin towers, while all the democratic parties in Europe and USA know very well that the attack was organised by CIA and Mossad, whit the help of sionistic world, just to accuse arab countries and induce occident to intervein both in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is why nobody in parlament gave solidarity to Berlusconi, which is the author of the fake video".


Pape

Last edited by Pape; 8th December 2007 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 8th December 2007, 10:05 AM   #154
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Thanks, Pape, and welcome!

Here's the link to the La Stampa article.

Once again, Prison Planet has shown what it is worth: absolutely nothing!
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Old 8th December 2007, 08:18 PM   #155
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Gracias merci danke arrigatto Pape. Welcome to the forum.
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Old 24th December 2007, 07:38 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
Cossiga has also been prime minister of Italy.

Of course, as has been pointed out before, it doesn't really matter.
Here's an article written by Cossiga in 2006. Someone tells me he states clearly that he doesn't believe in "inside job".

http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cms...111girata.asp#
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Old 24th December 2007, 07:56 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Here's an article written by Cossiga in 2006. Someone tells me he states clearly that he doesn't believe in "inside job".

http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cms...111girata.asp#
Absolutely.

He rejects the conspiracy theories about 9/11 in that article (and of course still does).

However, there is a small consolation for truthers.

From the linked article:
Quote:
TRA qualche giorno ricorre l'anniversario dell'attentato alle Torri gemelle e al Pentagono da parte dei terroristi del potente movimento di «Rivincita islamica» Al Qaeda e della caduta di un terzo aereo kamikaze (destinato a impattare contro la Casa Bianca) forse per opera dei terroristi che così reagirono all'insurrezione dei passeggeri, o molto più probabilmente per l’abbattimento da parte di aerei militari per ordine del Presidente degli Stati Uniti ...
This means (more or less):"In a few days will occur the anniversary of the attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon by the terrorists of the powerful Islamic movement Al Qaeda, and of the crash of a third kamikaze plane (destined to strike the White House), maybe caused by the terrorists who reacted to a revolt by the passengers, or, more probably, caused by the shootdown by the US Air Force, on the orders of the president of the US ..."

So Cossiga doesn't believe in all of the standard version of events.
However, he clearly doesn't believe in an inside-job, nor in a Zionist plot.

The guys at Prison Planet are simply too stupid and ignorant of Italian politics to understand the sarcasm in his recent Corriere della Sera statement.
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Last edited by Firestone; 24th December 2007 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 27th December 2007, 10:00 PM   #158
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Could someone sum up the Cossiga situation at present? I'm still seeing twoofers state confidently that he's on record that 911 was an inside job and now they have this second quote: ( I simply pasted the quote from a truther post at another board)

Quote:
"From environments near Palazzo Chigi, the focal direction of Italian intelligence, it should be noted that non-authenticity of the video has witnessed by the fact that Osama Bin Laden in it 'confesses' that Al Qaeda would have been the author dell'attentato 11 September to the two towers in New York, while all those Democrats of America and Europe, with those at the forefront of the Italian centre, now know well that the disastrous attack was planned and carried out by the American CIA and the Mossad with the help of the world to put under Zionist accused the Arab countries in order to induce the Western powers to intervene both in Iraq and in Afghanistan.

Link to the newspaper article:

http://www.corriere.it/politica/07_novembre_30/osama_berlusconi_cossig a_27f4ccee-9f55-11dc-8807-0003ba99c53b.shtml

Original quote in Italian:

«Da ambienti vicini a Palazzo Chigi, centro nevralgico di direzione dell'intelligence italiana, si fa notare che la non autenticità del video è testimoniata dal fatto che Osama Bin Laden in esso 'confessa' che Al Qaeda sarebbe stato l'autore dell'attentato dell'11 settembre alle due torri in New York, mentre tutti gli ambienti democratici d'America e d'Europa, con in prima linea quelli del centrosinistra italiano, sanno ormai bene che il disastroso attentato è stato pianificato e realizzato dalla Cia americana e dal Mossad con l'aiuto del mondo sionista per mettere sotto accusa i Paesi arabi e per indurre le potenze occidentali ad intervenire sia in Iraq sia in Afghanistan.
I take it he is likely being facetious here but I must admit his meaning is simply unclear to me. I'd love to be able to shut up some truthers about this with something more definitive.

Last edited by alexg; 27th December 2007 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 28th December 2007, 04:26 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by alexg View Post
Could someone sum up the Cossiga situation at present? I'm still seeing twoofers state confidently that he's on record that 911 was an inside job and now they have this second quote: ( I simply pasted the quote from a truther post at another board)



I take it he is likely being facetious here but I must admit his meaning is simply unclear to me. I'd love to be able to shut up some truthers about this with something more definitive.
Saddly, you can't convince truthers with something more definitive, because it requires the truthers biggest ennemy: context.

As you can read in the posts above, Cossiga has clearly written in the past that he doesn't buy the 9/11-CT.
He has also been very critical in the past about the Left's assumed complacency toward Islamists.

In the Corriere della Sera statement, he doesn't say he believes in the inside-job theory.
He "quotes" an article that was supposed to appear one or two days later that contains the claim. Of course that article never appeared (it only existed in Cossiga's facetious mind).
That "article" also was supposed to prove that Berlusconi faked the latest Bin Laden-tape.

Some two weeks after the Corriere della Sera-article appeared, there was some (unrelated) incident between Cossiga and a right-wing senator, Antonio Del Pennino, who had some harsh words against Cossiga.
Guess who jumped to Cossiga's defense? None other than Berlusconi, who said: "... sono vicino al Presidente Cossiga con l'affetto e con la stima di sempre." That translates to: " ... I am close to Cossiga for whom I always have affection and respect."
Would you say that about someone who accused you days earlier to have faked the Bin Laden video?

(Source for this incident.)

So, the context makes it clear that Cossiga was indeed facetious. Everybody understands it, certainly in Italy.

But you won't convince truthers. They will take the quote out of context, and will do this for years to come.

Business as usual ...
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Last edited by Firestone; 28th December 2007 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 28th December 2007, 09:01 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
So, the context makes it clear that Cossiga was indeed facetious. Everybody understands it, certainly in Italy.
Not everyone, just people with an IQ of at least 2 digits. CTers, even in Italy, think he's serious ;-)

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