ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags child abuse , Jackie McGauley , Lawrence Pazder , McMartin preschool case , Ted Gunderson

Reply
Old 14th February 2007, 03:20 AM   #121
fredcarr
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 697
I haven't read any reports that any of these kids have been called liars. (I have read some reports where the children in similar cases have recanted.)

I feel greatly for the abuse that many children have experienced due to the circumstances they were forced into.

You didn't really answer my question however: Are you saying that being falsely imprisoned is not abuse? If it's not abuse then what do you view it as?

Fred
fredcarr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 03:26 AM   #122
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Local newspaper
letters to the editor, 2005


A reluctant look back

Dear ER:

For the residents of the beach cities and beyond who remember the McMartin and Manhattan Ranch cases and want the dark stain removed from their conscience, Kevin Cody’s article (“The McMartin Preschool case: What really happened?” ER, Oct. 27, 2005) will help them. The need to whitewash this horror and scrub it clean has been with us from the day my wife and I were contacted by the Manhattan Beach Police Department and told our son was one of the children identified as a victim of molestation at Manhattan Ranch Pre-School.

My wife and I didn’t want to believe any of this ever happened, either. But wishing it never happened doesn’t make it go away. Put yourselves in my wife’s and my shoes for a moment.

We had just moved to the Hollyglen neighborhood of Hawthorne in the summer of 1983. We enrolled our four-year-old son at Manhattan Ranch Preschool because my wife and I both worked full-time jobs. Sometime in the following summer, we received a phone call from the Manhattan Beach Police. We were told to come down to the headquarters to speak with a police detective. At that time we learned that our son had been identified by other children at the preschool as a fellow victim of molestation. Based on that information, we acted to protect our son. We scheduled him for medical examination. We took him to therapy. My wife asked him to show her the places where he had been taken during the day while we were at work.

When the medical report came back with positive confirmation that my son had been sodomized, I didn’t need to be persuaded further. The news was devastating.

For this, we and the other parents were castigated by the media for expressing concern about the safety and well-being of our children. We were branded as “witch-hunting” parents because our children had been violated and we wanted justice.

Now, one of the adult children involved in this sad saga comes forward and admits he lied under oath. And the community in need of vindication will once again tell itself that none of this ever happened. The same public that chafes at the notion that “ . . 300 children told authorities that they were molested at the preschool, but no adult every acknowledged witnessing the assaults . . .” will find it similarly difficult to believe that priests abuse altar boys behind closed doors. Both groups will go on hiding their heads in the sand and believe what they want to believe.

As for Cody’s inference that the parents’ silence since the trial’s end be read as an admission of error, I can offer my own reaction. McMartin and Manhattan Ranch happened over 20 years ago. My son who was four at the time is now 26 years old. In the intervening years, he has asked about Manhattan Ranch once. His request was to look at the newspaper articles that we kept from the trial. He looked at the file when he was 16 or 17 and never asked about it again. The memories of Manhattan Ranch, McMartin, and the specifics of his molestation, are not easy topics to bring up or resolve. The fact that parents and their children don’t want to discuss this issue is self-evident to those of us who went through it. There is only emotional pain, like a scab being ripped off, to greet our effort. Instinctively, we knew then as we know now that survival means moving on.

Cody’s explanations regarding the prosecution’s failure to bring about convictions in the McMartin case (and Manhattan Ranch, as well) overlooks the most obvious problem – the children themselves. They never stood a chance in the face of attorneys whose profession relies on the ability to impeach testimony. Were they coached by therapists, encouraged by their families, prepped by attorneys? Certainly. Who wouldn’t have been? They were also scared to death – literally. Then they were thrown to the lions.

The strategy now is to discredit Children’s Institute therapist Kee MacFarlane, and all the therapists and medical specialists who were literally on the cutting edge of justice in child abuse cases. We were supportive of the therapists’ techniques of using hand puppets, of encouraging the children to draw their feelings, of encouraging, even prompting them to reveal their secrets. Without these tools, my son’s therapy would have been pointless. For Cody to suggest that “hundreds of children were virtually molested by the therapists and doctors who examined them” is absurd. How does one elicit the truth from a child who fears physical harm if he reveals his secrets?

In retrospect, our son’s inexplicable night terrors, his panic over having his picture taken, his fear of going to school and being dropped off, of being dressed in other children’s clothing when we went to pick him up at the end of the day, would have made sense if only we had stopped in unannounced at Manhattan Ranch to observe.

Instead, we assumed our son was safe in pre-school. Lesson learned.

Michael S. Simpson

San Pedro
http://easyreader.hermosawave.net/ne...ate=11/10/2005



McRedux

Dear ER:

Thank you to Michael Simpson for again speaking out on a horrible subject and to ER for printing it (Letters, ER Nov. 10, 2005). The McMartin case never should have happened in the first place, and justice should have 'corrected' it in the second. David McGowan has a chapter in his book, Programmed to Kill, called McMolestation. He gives facts, not media hype for anyone searching for the truth. Thank you for speaking out.

K Wilkinson
http://easyreader.hermosawave.net/ne...ate=11/24/2005
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 03:30 AM   #123
fredcarr
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 697
Jacque - You are still not answering my question.

I can't find anywhere in that article where its calling any of the children liars. Who has said the children were lying?

Fred
fredcarr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 07:27 PM   #124
Kil
Critical Thinker
 
Kil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 313
Quote:
We were supportive of the therapists’ techniques of using hand puppets, of encouraging the children to draw their feelings, of encouraging, even prompting them to reveal their secrets. Without these tools, my son’s therapy would have been pointless. For Cody to suggest that “hundreds of children were virtually molested by the therapists and doctors who examined them” is absurd. How does one elicit the truth from a child who fears physical harm if he reveals his secrets?
Even prompting them to reveal their secrets? What about a child wanting the approval of a person in authority? Or, as in the above case, the child’s own parents? We have long since let go of the idea that children do not tell lies.

Any therapy that leads like the one described above simply can’t be trusted. That is why RMT has fallen out of favor…
__________________
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

www.skepticfriends.org
Kil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 07:50 PM   #125
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by fredcarr View Post
Jacque, Just so I am clear on this. Are you saying that being falslely imprisoned is not abuse? If its not abuse then what do you view it as?

Fred
No, Fred, I am saying they were not falsly imprisoned.
They did the crime. I view it as they were lucky the case went so awry that they got away with it.. They got financial compenstation. Our children got called liars.
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 07:59 PM   #126
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by fredcarr View Post
Jacque - You are still not answering my question.

I can't find anywhere in that article where its calling any of the children liars. Who has said the children were lying?

Fred
Fred,
Exactly! The children are not liars.
A lot of the wild accusations were made up by the media debbie nathan, Dr. Gardner, the defense team (that is their job), defense witnesses, FMSF/VOCAL members, etc. Some things that were said were discribing scenerios in porno films that were being filmed and some were tricks done to the kids to scare them.The lion in the cellar was a trick An older child noticed a zipper in the back of th costume. I don't know the answers to everything and I am sure probably some kid lied or elaborated about something
(Kyle Sapp for example) but I AM saying hunderds of kids who went to the presxchool and did not know eachother did not all make up the same stories.
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 08:03 PM   #127
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
No, Fred, I am saying they were not falsly imprisoned.
They did the crime. I view it as they were lucky the case went so awry that they got away with it.. They got financial compenstation. Our children got called liars.
Innocent people spent time in prison and were ruined professionally, economically and personally. There was never a shred of evidence against them. The children were victimized by police, prosecutors, therapists, and even their own parents who assumed they were molested and went to great lengths to make the children say it was so, and eventually they believed it themselves.

You can't claim that sure, 95% of the stories told are impossible and fantastical, but then the other 5% must be true. That's just throwing mud on the wall and hoping some sticks. The whole case was a travesty of justice, a textbook case of overzealous prosecution, manipulative therapists, and gullible parents. That many of the people involved meant well is beside the point, it was in every sense of the word a modern day witch hunt. Complete w/ accusations of witchcraft and satanism, none of which had any supporting evidence.
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 08:10 PM   #128
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Kil View Post
Even prompting them to reveal their secrets? What about a child wanting the approval of a person in authority? Or, as in the above case, the child’s own parents? We have long since let go of the idea that children do not tell lies.

Any therapy that leads like the one described above simply can’t be trusted. That is why RMT has fallen out of favor…
That is true and I totally agree.
Also, today there has been so much on TV about kids manipulating adults by saying they were molested that they have learned to do it. Mostly older children, I think, but young children talk to other kids and I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that it could happen at a fairly young age.
When Peggy Buckey told me Ray had been accused of molesting a child, I had to go look up the word 'molest' in the dictionary to see what she meant exactly. Even then I could not fatham the idea of adults having sex with small children. That was 1983.
Can you remember what you knew about child molestation in 1983? Unless you were either a doctor or a pedophile, I bet not much.
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 08:35 PM   #129
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Innocent people spent time in prison and were ruined professionally, economically and personally. There was never a shred of evidence against them. The children were victimized by police, prosecutors, therapists, and even their own parents who assumed they were molested and went to great lengths to make the children say it was so, and eventually they believed it themselves.

You can't claim that sure, 95% of the stories told are impossible and fantastical, but then the other 5% must be true. That's just throwing mud on the wall and hoping some sticks. The whole case was a travesty of justice, a textbook case of overzealous prosecution, manipulative therapists, and gullible parents. That many of the people involved meant well is beside the point, it was in every sense of the word a modern day witch hunt. Complete w/ accusations of witchcraft and satanism, none of which had any supporting evidence.
I know you READ all of that stuff. I know it is all over the internet.(if it is on the Internet it MUST be true huh?)
They were not innocent people (is OJ an innocent person? Robert Blake?)
There were many shreds of evidence. The District Attorney won't take a case to trial unless they think they can win-especially in an election year. If there were NO evidence do you REALLY think they would have gone to trial with all of the media attention?
The doctors, therapists, police, district attorneys and parents were NOT in collusion with each other, that is just ludicrous. I never said they meant well. They did their jobs. I don't say 95% of the stories are impossible, either, I am saying these people on the Internet are repeating a lot of gossip and rumors and a few have made up things. Even some of the posters here have made up stories that they have tried to apply to the case.
There were NO accusations of witchcraft or satanism in the trial so they did not need supporting evidence. One boy I know discribed (on the witness stand) SEEING that sort of thing, it was being filmed, what they call a prescription (porn) video. Him seeing people dressed up does not make it a real satanic cult.
I have to say that I do believe that there are satanic cults. I have read a bunch of serious (nonfiction.........hey, THEY believe it) books about them. Anton LaVey ran a high profile one in San Francisco. Michael Aquino started the Temple of Set. L. Ron Hunnard even broke away from Alister Crawley's group to form his own cult. If you really believe some people are not out there playing like they are real satanists, even witches, trying to conjure up spirits and such, I can get you a load of titles to read.
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 09:15 PM   #130
fredcarr
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 697
Well jacque - I can certainly understand were you are coming from.

I have a friend that claimed horrible things happened to her when she was a child. She could remember all of them. A year after getting off the medications her therapist had her on she realized that none of those things had happened. Her doctor/therapist told her that is what happened to her while she was on the influence of drugs.

My question is this: Was she lying before or is she lying now?

There are a couple great quotes this reminds me of:

"Harmful lies are the product of fear, malice and envy. They can drive people to acts of desperation. They can ruin lives. They create a kind of trap into which the teller and target can both fall. Interpersonal and social chaos can result. Many Wars began because of harmful lies.

One should learn to detect them and reject them."

And another quote from the same work:

"Has there ever been an instance when another had some false data about you? Did it cause you trouble?

This can give you some havoc of the false data can raise.

You could also have some false data about another.

Separating the false from the truth brings about understanding.

There is a lot of false data around. Evil intentioned individuals manufacture it to serve their own purposes. Some of it comes from just plain ignorance of the facts. It can block the acceptance of true data."

Maybe my friend wasn't lying. Maybe she was lied to. Something to think about. If people had gone to jail because of what she believe in and then she found out it wasn't true then those that were punished unjustly certainly were abused by false data. Its no fun to be lied to or about.

I know because I hear lies about me all the time. Many on this board. I guess thats the price I pay for being a Scientologist.

By the way, those quotes were taken from The Way to Happiness - A Common Sense Guide To Better Living.

http://twth.org/about/resources-and-...nguage=english

Sincerely,

Fred
fredcarr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2007, 09:33 PM   #131
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Oh, I thought I'd check.
Did you forget I was there?
My child had medical evidence. My child, along with 20 others told the DA about tunnels.
I knew Judy Johnson, the first mother who suspected abuse, she was NEVER diagnosed with any mental illness.
I knew Kee MacFarland. It has been proven that her techniques were suggestible but she did not implant elaborate false memories in over 300 children that were consistent for 7 years through the trial and still are today.
I visited the trial often, I knew over 50 other families. I knew witnesses. I talked to the lead prosecutor when I had questions, such as why did Glenn Stevens quit? Stevens was one of the prosecutors who quit during the trial because he had leaked information to the LA Times then lied about it. He was told to put his resignation on the lead DA's desk by that Friday. Then he said he didn't believe the kids. Oh and he had a poor rapport with them so they weren't comfortable talking to him.
Stevens was also writing a manuscript about the case in which he was the hero. Abby Mann (indictment) interviewed him but made Danny Davis, Ray's attorney, the hero of his movie which was written from the perspective of the defendants. Oh and they were paid for their permission to write their story form THEIR perspective. Mann was in court a lot, too, along with his wife Myra. He gave me the stiff middle finger the day the verdicts were read.
Did you forget I was the parent who decided to hire archaeologists? Twenty-six other parents voted to go forward with hiring them. I was at the school site when they announced the tunnels were identified. The Archaeologists showed me and others what they found.
I am also the parent asked 10 of the doctors to collaborate on a formal report on the evidence that was found. And I paid 1/3 of the cost with donations paying the other 1/3 and Gloria Steinam paying the last 1/3.Ms Steinam was a friend of a friend of mine.
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 12:22 AM   #132
fredcarr
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 697
My friend was "there" as well. She was a party to the acts in question and had clear recollection of them. But they never happened according to her now.

What is your opinion as to why there weren't any convictions. There were a lot of other similar case across the US in which convictions were gotten on similar evidence. (Which were later overturned but still people were found guilty.) Why not in this case?

Fred
fredcarr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 09:42 AM   #133
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
I know you READ all of that stuff. I know it is all over the internet.(if it is on the Internet it MUST be true huh?)
The internet can be a great source of information if you vet your sources properly. You have a habit of simply dismissing any studies that don't agree w/ your position. You call the authors biased, but haven't yet shown any reason why this is so. There was a lot of fantastical accusations made in the McMartin case - accusations that were physically impossible. A skeptic would then have doubts about the other accusations as well, but you don't. In fact, you dance around the issue by claiming bad sources, biased authors, etc. I don't think the sources were biased, nor the authors.

Quote:
They were not innocent people (is OJ an innocent person? Robert Blake?) There were many shreds of evidence.
There was loads of evidence in the OJ case, far less in Blake's.

Quote:
The District Attorney won't take a case to trial unless they think they can win-especially in an election year.
Actually it's quite the opposite - as the Duke lacrosse rape case shows. Elected DA's have a strong incentive to bring weak or non-existent cases to trial if their constituency is demanding it, especially in an election year.

Quote:
If there were NO evidence do you REALLY think they would have gone to trial with all of the media attention?
Yes, especially w/ all the media attention.
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 09:57 AM   #134
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
Oh, I thought I'd check.
Did you forget I was there?
My child had medical evidence. My child, along with 20 others told the DA about tunnels.
Tunnels that clearly did not exist. Medical evidence that was weak at best.

Quote:
I knew Judy Johnson, the first mother who suspected abuse, she was NEVER diagnosed with any mental illness.
So you think the acusations she made, and I showed in post 99 of this thread, are valid? The whole case started w/ Judy Johnson. A medical exam of her son found no evidence of abuse of any kind. The storys she told could not possibly have happened. The case never would have come to light but for Johnson. None of her storys were used at the trial because the DA knew it wass damaging to the case, and at any rate she died before it.

Quote:
I knew Kee MacFarland. It has been proven that her techniques were suggestible but she did not implant elaborate false memories in over 300 children that were consistent for 7 years through the trial and still are today.
Bold emphasis mine. If you don't see the flaw in your reasoning you're too close to see it objectively.

Quote:
Did you forget I was the parent who decided to hire archaeologists? Twenty-six other parents voted to go forward with hiring them. I was at the school site when they announced the tunnels were identified. The Archaeologists showed me and others what they found.
I am also the parent asked 10 of the doctors to collaborate on a formal report on the evidence that was found. And I paid 1/3 of the cost with donations paying the other 1/3 and Gloria Steinam paying the last 1/3.Ms Steinam was a friend of a friend of mine.
The evidence strongly favors an old trash pit rather than a tunnel. Your archaeologist gave you the info he was paid to find, or he was biased himself. Perhaps you'd hjave been better off hiring an arhaeologist who was unfamiliar w/ the case, and didn't know what he was looking for in advance.
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 10:11 AM   #135
Luke T.
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 14,708
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
What I saw was scarring in the perineum area caused by stretching and numerous fissures. Severe, painful red rashelike redness in the area and around the anus were fissures and evidence of stretching. I'd have to look up the description of that type of damage to put it into words. There was bruising of internal organs causing internal pain.
Fissures. That is an interesting choice of word.

In this Frontline story, they discuss the McMartin case, and then go into some other similar cases, including the Fells Acres Day School in Malden, MA. And there we find:

Quote:
In addition to the testimony of the children, prosecutors also pointed to physical evidence of abuse on five of the 10 children, citing vulvitis, vaginitis, a small scar on one girl's hymen and "well-healed anal fissures" on some children.
And I know you don't like them, but from IPT.

Quote:
A University of California Los Angeles Medical Center report (August 17, 1983) on Judy Johnson's son reported "erythema and excoriation trauma" from "forced entry and/or rubbing." But Fischer reports that "Two doctors, one an intern, determined the boy's condition was 'consistent' with being sodomized. Later, the intern, Dr. Linda Golden, confided 'she didn't know anything about sexual abuse,' a former LAPD detective said." Another physician, according to Fischer, who concluded the boy had anal fissures incorrectly testified that the boy had been circumcised. Eberle and Eberle report that defense expert Dr. David M. Paul testified that, based on his study of the boy's medical examinations, he did not believe the boy's anus had a fissure. In either case, he added, the physical evidence was not diagnostic of sexual abuse. As the Queen's Corner for the City of London and a physician of forensic medicine, Dr. Paul's credentials were impeccable. He had examined more than 1500 children for signs of sexual abuse and had written and lectured extensively on the topic.
Luke T. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 11:02 AM   #136
Chris Haynes
Perfectly Poisonous Person
 
Chris Haynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West
Posts: 4,427
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
Oh, ...I knew Judy Johnson, the first mother who suspected abuse, she was NEVER diagnosed with any mental illness.
...
Answer these two questions:

1) Did Judy Johnson have a psychotic episode that required hospitalization? Reference March 1985, bottom of page. Yes or No?

2) Why did she die late in 1986?



Originally Posted by jacque View Post
Did you forget I was the parent who decided to hire archaeologists? Twenty-six other parents voted to go forward with hiring them. I was at the school site when they announced the tunnels were identified. The Archaeologists showed me and others what they found.
I am also the parent asked 10 of the doctors to collaborate on a formal report on the evidence that was found. And I paid 1/3 of the cost with donations paying the other 1/3 and Gloria Steinam paying the last 1/3.Ms Steinam was a friend of a friend of mine.
Actually, you are the parent who keeps bringing this up as if the satanic rituals actually happened. You have left several messages on Usenet (easily found)... and other interviews you give to whoever will listen to you (and yet Stickel's full report on the tunnels is still not widely available).

You popped up here when your ex-friend Gunderson was being discussed. Of course this guy is still pushing satanic rituals, and even accused Art Bell of abusing his own son: ://www.newsmakingnews.com/gunderson.htm

Whatever... if after 20 years you are still chasing demons, there is nothing more to do than
__________________
I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids

"HCN, I hate you!"
( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )...
What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/
Chris Haynes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 12:15 PM   #137
fredcarr
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 697
Quote:
From ‘Suggestions of Abuse’ Michael Yapko published 1994
"the necessity of having to recover every detail of every abusive memory may actually lead to greater confabulation and greater traumatisation, as in the questioning of the now infamous McMartin preschool case, … "
From ‘Satan’s Silence: Ritual Abuse and the making of a Modern American Witch Hunt’ Debbie Nathan and Michael Snedecker published 1995,
"To put the children at ease, the women [therapists] dressed, clownlike, in mismatched clothes and multicoloured stockings, and sat on the floor with the youngsters. They talked in gentle high pitched voices, and encouraged discussion about genitals and sexual behaviour that young children hardly knew words for. And they used a new diagnostic device: "anatomically correct" dolls, which came with breasts, vaginas, penises, anuses, and pubic hair. The children were introduced to MacFarlane’s collection of hand puppets …. The session became a scene of naked dolls with genitals touching, poking and threatening each other. Cloth penises were being inserted into mouths. "Did that happen" Ooh, that must have been yucky," MacFarlane said. "It didn’t happen," corrected Tanya; "I’m just playing." There was talk of being spirited from the school to molester’s homes, though whether they were people’s houses or doll houses was unclear. After prompting from MacFarlane, Tanya named Peggy Buckey as a witness to abuse"
"I haven’t seen anyone playing Naked Movie Star" insists Keith, an eight year old, during his interview with Kee MacFarlane. In response, MacFarlane scolds" "Are you going to be stupid, or are you going to be smart and help us? You must be dumb." Trying to please her, Keith answers her demand to describe Ray Buckey’s ejaculate by noting that it was yellow, smelled like "poo", and tasted like "barf" and a "rotten snail". Minutes later he has forgotten all these details."
From ‘Wounded Innocents; the Real Victims of the War against Child Abuse’ by Richard Wexler published 1990:
The children were sent to the Child Sexual Abuse Centre at the Children’s Institute International (CII) for what ‘Nightline’ called sophisticated play therapy" that would allow the children to "share their secrets"
"The director, Kee MacFarlane, would dress up in a clown costume, sit on the floor with the children, talk to them through puppets, and make statements like "we can pretend". …. And the children quickly learn what is expected of them. Instead of open ended questions, MacFarlane and other employees would ask if particular people did particular things. A simple nod yes then would be enough. "No" answers were rejected, with questions repeated over and over.. "Yes" answers were rewarded with high praise and statements that "your parents will be so proud of you"
"Particularly since the verdict in the case came down in early 1990, MacFarlane has tried to justify her techniques as necessary in order to provide a supportive environment to help children disclose alleged abuse, and to provide therapy for children."
From ‘Spectral Evidence’ by Moira Johnston published 1997:
" … Kee MacFarlane, whose suggestive interviewing of children in the notorious McMartin case had been widely condemned, continued to be invited to talk and given a place of honour, - considered a slap in the face to damaged families, Freyd (from FMSF) felt."
From ‘Whores of the Court’ by Margaret Hagen published 1997
"When the McMartins of the famous day care abuse case were finally vindicated, they sued Kee MacFarlane, the child psychological specialist who interviewed the children, as well as the corporate entity for which she worked. The California court ruled that they could not sue Ms. MacFarlane - or Children’s Institute International - for their role in the raising of bizarre allegations like hot air balloon molestation and tunnelling trips to graveyards to dig up graves and hack up corpses because she was just doing her job under the shield of immunity. Immunity applied because her investigations arose directly out of the initial reports of abuse."
Extraordinary. If the initial cause is just, then any evil in it’s service is justified?
Brian Robinson
Looks like Kee did more than suggest things to children. From all evidence to hand the only real proof of any abuse is what she did to these children and by extension to the McMartins.

Fred
fredcarr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 01:29 PM   #138
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by fredcarr View Post
My friend was "there" as well. She was a party to the acts in question and had clear recollection of them. But they never happened according to her now.

What is your opinion as to why there weren't any convictions. There were a lot of other similar case across the US in which convictions were gotten on similar evidence. (Which were later overturned but still people were found guilty.) Why not in this case?

Fred
Gee, Fred, if I had to be around you all of the time, I'd tell you anything you wanted to hear, too, just to end the discussion. That is called the Accommodation Syndrome.
There were only a few convictions. The only one of those that wasn't overturned was the Frank Fuster of Miami case.
Courts are not set up to handle mass abuse cases. Typically they will find one defendant and go after him/her like they did with the lone female soldier Abu Ghraib.
Ours was one of the first of such cases. It really was mess, no oother case to model after. Especially after the election of lead DA went to Ira Reiner. Reiner did not want the case. After all 7 were held over for trial by Judge Aviva Bobb and before the case was assigned to a judge for trial, Reiner dropped 5 of the defendants. He said he kept on Ray and Peggy because he thought he could win with the mother and son.
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 01:36 PM   #139
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,770
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
Gee, Fred, if I had to be around you all of the time, I'd tell you anything you wanted to hear, too, just to end the discussion. That is called the Accommodation Syndrome.
So if someone says something you agree with it, it's evidence, but if not it's them accomodating the interviewer?

Funny that you readily ascribe this Syndrome to adults but won't consider that children will do it, too. That's the crux of this aspect of the argument.


Originally Posted by jacque
Courts are not set up to handle mass abuse cases.
Courts are set up to handle the cases that the prosecutors present.


Originally Posted by jacque
Typically they will find one defendant and go after him/her like they did with the lone female soldier Abu Ghraib.
You need to read more. I know there were at least four convictions in the Abu Ghraib case, not to mention an administrative reprimand and demotion for the General Officer. The fact that Lyndie England got the most press does not eliminate the other convictions that came out of that.


Originally Posted by jacque
Ours was one of the first of such cases. It really was mess, no oother case to model after.
Why on earth do you need to model a case? The model, such as there is, involves the collection of unimpeachable evidence and the presentation thereof. It's the "unimpeachable" part that this case falls short on, and it is apparent to an unattached observer that the impeachment was for objective reasons and not political or systemic ones.


Originally Posted by jacque
Especially after the election of lead DA went to Ira Reiner. Reiner did not want the case. After all 7 were held over for trial by Judge Aviva Bobb and before the case was assigned to a judge for trial, Reiner dropped 5 of the defendants. He said he kept on Ray and Peggy because he thought he could win with the mother and son.
The prosecutor thought he didn't have a case. That should tell you at least a little something.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2007, 01:56 PM   #140
fredcarr
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 697
Quote:
Gee, Fred, if I had to be around you all of the time, I'd tell you anything you wanted to hear, too, just to end the discussion. That is called the Accommodation Syndrome.
Jacque - Garret put it much better than I could.

Quote:
So if someone says something you agree with it, it's evidence, but if not it's them accomodating the interviewer?

Funny that you readily ascribe this Syndrome to adults but won't consider that children will do it, too. That's the crux of this aspect of the argument.
I never knew there was name for agreeing with someone just to get them to shut up. Now that I have a label for it it all makes sense

Fred
fredcarr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 09:45 AM   #141
Kil
Critical Thinker
 
Kil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 313
Just a thought. The recidivism rate for pedophilia is very high. So how is it that none of the people in these day care cases like Ray Buckey are apparently not a pedophiles any longer? How does that happen? Why is it that out of all the people accused of pedophilia in these particular cases, not a single one that I know of (and perhaps someone might correct me on this) has had a subsequent history of pedophilia?
__________________
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

www.skepticfriends.org
Kil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 10:04 AM   #142
strathmeyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,380
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
One child with a STD does not sound like rampant pediophilia to me, sounds like one child with an STD. Did the other kids ever mention Ray using condoms?

Is Jacque craving the spot light, er what?
Yeah, the STD comment really shows her hand. It's clear that Jacque is just repeating random and arbitrary rumors about the case, instead of describing a coherent opinion that child abuse took place. How can only one child have an STD? Also, STDs can be genetically matched so you can tell who someone got one from.

How do we separate fact from fiction? If we had already made up our minds on what really happened, what is supposed to change our minds? Someone telling us otherwise?

Please, this is the Internet.
strathmeyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 10:44 AM   #143
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by strathmeyer View Post
Yeah, the STD comment really shows her hand. It's clear that Jacque is just repeating random and arbitrary rumors about the case, instead of describing a coherent opinion that child abuse took place. How can only one child have an STD? Also, STDs can be genetically matched so you can tell who someone got one from.
I doubt the technology for that was available (at least not widely) in the mid-1980's.
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 11:40 AM   #144
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
 
Roadtoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Citrus Heights, CA
Posts: 15,191
Originally Posted by Kil View Post
Just a thought. The recidivism rate for pedophilia is very high. So how is it that none of the people in these day care cases like Ray Buckey are apparently not a pedophiles any longer? How does that happen? Why is it that out of all the people accused of pedophilia in these particular cases, not a single one that I know of (and perhaps someone might correct me on this) has had a subsequent history of pedophilia?
I am pretty much just in from the road, so I'm catching up on a lot.

This might seem like a specious argument, but it really isn't. For all the claims of abuse, we've yet to see a repeat of anything like this. It's much the same as we've seen from the nightmare in Wenatchee, with its overzealous cop finding "abuse" in damned near every household, only to find out in the end it was nothing.

(And, as a footnote, I've yet to see anyone who endured this as a defendant ever receive an apology or even acknowledgement that their lives were ruined as a result.)
Roadtoad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 11:42 AM   #145
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,428
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
...I should scan that picture for you. Then you can tell me I doctored the photo.
...
For the record, I (nor I believe anybody in this thread) has accused you of lying or creating evidence. We believe you are wrong in your analysis and that you have formed an opinion so strongly that you are not looking at the evidence objectively (as perhaps we all do from time to time). I do not believe that you are lying or that you are likely to.

A little more discussion on the tunnels:

As it happens when I was a kid I went into a little underground shelter made by some kids who dug a hole and covered it with plywood and dirt. It was a very unpleasant place to be. It was dirty, dusty and unventilated. I suspect any kind of primitive underground tunnels and room that you envision would have been similar, except that if they were larger and more complex they would have been even more uncomfortable and more dangerous.

It seems very unlikely that an adult would build such a place with the idea of actually inhabiting it even for a short time.

In addition, the excavation of such tunnels would be very difficult to do without being noticed. If workers were involved a likely expectation is that one of them at least would have come forth. If any sort of construction materials were used to make the tunnels remotely comfortable and safe records would exist of the purchase of those materials and the person making such underground constructions would be very likely to be observed by somebody. Your idea also requires that all of the seven people charged in this case either had no knowledge of these structures or were unwilling to testify. You basically envision a seven person conspiracy where everybody stays completely silent about the conspiracy forever. That seems unlikely to me.

If your investigation had unearthed anything resembling construction materials there might be a reason to give some credibility to the idea that there were purpose built tunnels on the McMartin property. As it is the investigators seem to have found no wood, no concrete, no bricks, no electrical wiring, and no ventilation components that might have been used in the construction of these alleged underground structures.

What you have described is something that seems completely consistent with the idea of trash pits and completely inconsistent with purpose built underground tunnels and rooms. It seems that almost everybody that has written about the McMartin case that has their writings on the web have reached similar conclusions. Only a very few people seem to continue to believe otherwise This alone might serve as a suggestion that you review your conclusions on this matter with an eye to making sure your biases and preconceived notions haven't closed your mind to what seems like overwhelming evidence that there were no secret underground structures involved in this case of any kind.

Last edited by davefoc; 16th February 2007 at 01:32 PM.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 12:41 PM   #146
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
As it happens when I was a kid I went into a little underground shelter made by some kids who dug a hole and covered it with plywood and dirt.
So it was you who broke into our fort! Unpleasant? It was a palace I tell ya!
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 01:27 PM   #147
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,428
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
So it was you who broke into our fort! Unpleasant? It was a palace I tell ya!
So you were part of the group that didn't invite me to take part in the building of the fort. I resent you to this day.

Although, you may not have considered this, it is possible that it wasn't the same fort. This one was near Del Amo and Mamie street in Lakewood, CA in about 1958.

Last edited by davefoc; 16th February 2007 at 01:33 PM.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 01:30 PM   #148
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,770
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
So you were part of the group that didn't invite me to take part in the building of the fort. I resent you to this day.

Although, you may not have considered this, it is possible that it wasn't the same fort. This one was near Del Amo and Mamie street in Lakewood, CA in about 1956.
I knew I should have taken a left at Albakoikee.

/Bugs Bunny
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 02:39 PM   #149
Fengirl
Graduate Poster
 
Fengirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Posts: 1,279
jacque,

I've read through the thread, and tried to read through as much of the supporting materials as I can.


You maintain that the dig you sponsored uncovered evidence that a network of tunnels and rooms existed beneath the McMartin PreSchool, and that these tunnels had been subsequently filled in.

A few questions:-
  • Who do you believe was responsible for filling them in?
  • When do you believe they were filled in?
  • By what mechanism do you believe they were filled in?

If these were tunnels and rooms through which adults and children moved, it would seem that we are talking about a substantial underground space. According to Stickel's report, we are talking about at least two tunnels, one 45 feet long, 9 feet wide and 4 feet high, plus secret rooms. We are therefore talking about a substantial amount of earth - tons and tons and tons - being required to fill in these tunnels. More earth than could possibly be surreptitiously sneaked in, in a few sacks or barrows. That amount of earth-moving (it seems to me) could not easily have been accomplished quickly or in secret.

So, what is your theory about how the in-filling of the tunnels was accomplished? Is there evidence of earth-moving plant and machinery being employed in the vicinity of the McMartin PreSchool during the relevant timescale? By whom? Between what dates?

Thanks.
Fengirl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 03:08 PM   #150
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
SADISTIC ABUSE DEFINITION, RECOGNITION AND TREATMENT

Jean M. Goodwin, M.D., M.P.H., is Professor of Psychiatry at the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston,
ABSTRACT The term "sadistic abuse" is proposed to designate adverse experiences which include sadistic sexual and physical abuse, acts of torture, over-control, and terrorization, induction into violence, ritual involvements, and malevolent emotional abuse. Individuals with these extreme childhood histories may present with severe and multiple symptoms and a prolonged complicated treatment course. Adherence to basic principles of trauma-based treatment is recommended as is reference to relevant databases which include not only those materials concerning severe child abuse and family violence, but also literatures describing torture, the holocaust, prostitution, pornography and sex rings, cult abuse, and sadistic criminals. victimtimized by multiple adults. These adults were described as using elaborate planning to execute multiple perverse acts often including bondage, incarceration, forced eating of nonfood, torture of children and animals, sodomy, and threatened or actual killings with mutilations (Kelley, 1989; Jonker & Jonker-Bakker, 1991). Some adults with dissociative disorders were recounting similar extreme abuses beginning in childhood often in association with images of altars, ritual orgies, infant sacrifice with cannibalism, and use of candles, circles, chants, and other elements or reversals ofJudeoChristian symbolism (Hill & Goodwin, 1989). Finkelhor and co-workers (1988) estimated that extreme
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 03:09 PM   #151
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
So you were part of the group that didn't invite me to take part in the building of the fort. I resent you to this day.

Although, you may not have considered this, it is possible that it wasn't the same fort. This one was near Del Amo and Mamie street in Lakewood, CA in about 1958.
Ah, ours wasn't built until 1974 or so. But we put a pile of grass clippings on top of it, as they composted it warmed up and heated our fort in the winter.
__________________
Vive la liberté!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 03:10 PM   #152
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Sexual Abuse of Children: Contested Issues and Competing Interests

Kathleen Coulborn Faller
Criminal Justice Review, 9 2004; vol. 29: pp. 358 - 376.
 ...children from Manhattan Beach (including McMartin children) having more problems in...the research as an initiative ofthe McMartin parents (p. 227). Similarly, Butler...Summit, R. (1994). The dark tunnels of McMartin. Journal ofPsychohistory, 21(4), 3...



Protecting Victims of Child Sexual Abuse: A Case for Caution

Philip Jenkins and Daniel Katkin
The Prison Journal, 1 1988; vol. 68: pp. 25 - 35.
...articles in New York Times on the McMartin case, 1986-87. Cohen, Stan. Moral...Lindsey, Robert. Articles on McMartin case in New York Times, 1984-86...1985. Lindsey, Robert. Articles on McMartin case in New York Times, 1984-86...


The Huffington Post, February 11, 2007
Ah, yes, underground tunnels. The same kind of tunnels described by the kids at McMartin preschool, who also claimed they were the victims of Satanic ritual abuse, claims which were utterly mocked in the mass media. In fact, they still are mocked in the mass media - despite the evidence to the contrary, including wide-spread sexually transmitted diseases among the kids. People Magazine is not particularly noted for its investigative journalism, yet had a reporter "investigate" the McMartin pre-school story. After interviewing Dr. E. Gary Stickel, the UCLA archaeologist commissioned to excavate the McMartin site, the reporter wrote back to headquarters that no tunnels had been uncovered. When Dr. Stickel heard this, he was surprised, as he told ,the reporter the exact opposite, which his 185 page Report of the Archaeological Excavation of the McMartin Preschool Site duly notes. "I told her the children said there were tunnels and we found tunnels. 
,It was as simple as that." After alerting People of the apparent failure to communicate, People began researching his evidence - and then the story was bumped. People, incidentally, is owned by the Time Warner, the people that bring us both Time and Life magazine.


http://www.tesserae.org/tess/prose/tunnels2.html
E. Gary Stickel, Ph.D. - Archaeological Investigations of the McMartin Preschool site, Manhattan Beach, California - Executive Summary "....The project unearthed not one but two tunnel complexes as well as previously unrecognized structural features which ,defied logical explanation. Both tunnel complexes conformed to locations and functional descriptions established by children's reports. One had been described as providing undetected access to an adjacent building on the east. The other provided outside access under the west wall of the building and contained within it an enlarged, cavernous artifact corresponding to children's descriptions of a "secret room"....The McMartin preschool in Manhattan Beach, California was the first of what has since been described as a national epidemic of multi-victim, multi-perpetrator accusations of sexual and sadistic abuse which erupted in the mid 1980's.....The results of the survey by Ground penetrating Radar proved consistent with discoveries of the subsequent excavations, all of which confirmed not only the basic descriptions of children but also specific details of location, interior features and putative function."


http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=us
Responding to abuse
A matter of perspective
KATE SINCLAIR
,Lecturer, Department of Social Policy and Human Services, University of Western Sydney

The themes that are described below were first voiced when the backlash developed in 1984 after the Jordan, Minnesota, preschool sexual abuse case. Summit reported that the themes to emerge in media coverage from the Jordan case condemned an scapegoated prosecutors, police and therapists, an portrayed child advocates as conspiring ,to entrap children and destroy families. It is instructive to note that when "[these] allegations were examined in the Federal Court of Appeals (Eighth Circuit, District of Minnesota, No. 855243) ,the justices found then groundless, endorsing both the motives and the methods of the child advocates" in the Jordan case. [21] Notwithstanding this court finding, strategies for responding to accusations of abuse that developed after Jordan [22] included the formation of a nation movement with international links. [23]
The fact that VOCAL's views about the Jordan case were not changed by the Federal Court Justices' position is illustrative of, rather than an exception to, the movement's response to legal decisions in sex abuse cases.[24] Moreover, the group's interpretation of the case as a "witchhunt" became the slogan for their response to similar cases.[25] 
,VOCAL's first newsletter also shows the impact of the Jordan case in galvanising a defence for those who claim to be falsely accused of sexual abuse.[26] Research into false allegations was quickly targeted A call was made for anonymous completion of a questionnaire ,on "suggestions for improving the investigation process so that the innocent are no subject to the Jordan, MN form of harassment".[27] As described below, while a key focus has been on the therapists, the group's targeting of the legal system through the media is also readily evident. [28]


Ritual Crime and Media Prejudice
PHP: Open Source Professional Portal System
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=8&gl=us

In 1983, a case that challenged the notion that children are safe in their schools erupted in Manhattan Beach, California. The McMartin Preschool had fast become an institution in Southern California and parents competed to enroll their preschoolers in that facility. It was 
,a family enterprise established by Virginia McMartin and staffed by her daughter, Peggy Buckey and Peggy’s son, Ray. An outcry by the mother of a four-year old son with a subsequent report to police from her child’s pediatrician, initiated a personal and legal ordeal that lasted for six years and cost the state of California 15 million dollars.
Eventually 40 children were named victims and 208 charges of child abuse resulted in indictments against McMartin, the Buckey’s and three other teachers at the preschool. The case went to court and three trials ended in hung juries. The prosecution decided not to retry. A poll of the jury after the last trial in which Ray Buckey was the sole defendant revealed that although the jury believed the allegations against Buckey, the jury did not believe the prosecution had made its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Although the child victims of McMartin reported the existence of tunnels under the school where they were taken to be victimized, the prosecution never thoroughly investigated the area, making only a superficial pass over the surface terrain. UCLA archeologist Gary Stickle did an excavation of the site immediately after the school was raised and did indeed find a network of tunnels beneath the McMartin school. These tunnels contained artifacts including children’s clothing, jewelry, toys, and the remains of small animals indicating that the children’s stories were accurate to the extent that they knew of the tunnels.
However, the prosecution was unwilling to initiate a new trial with the new evidence on the basis that by that point in time, the jury pool was totally contaminated. Also, it should be noted that the only book published that is solely devoted to the McMartin case was authored by Paul and Shirley Eberle (1993). The Eberle’s published soft core magazine, "LA Star" and the hard-core, "Finger", depicting S&M, bondage, and sex with children. Objectively, one would hardly think they represent the best interests of children.
The McMartin case sparked a flurry of interest in allegations of ritual abuse and a backlash evolved that ultimately changed the way in which the media investigated and reported ritual abuse cases. The organization, Victims of Child Abuse Laws (VOCAL) established itself as the early advocate for those who had been accused perpetrators of child sexual abuse and ritual abuse.

Under the auspices of Ralph Underwager, a Minnesotan psychologist and Lutheran minister, VOCAL demonstrated media savvy and bombarded the media with its own perspective on allegations of child sexual abuse and ritual abuse. Underwager and his wife, professional counselor (and former student) Hollida Wakefield, became darlings of the defense and testified in over 500 cases in which they never found sexual or ritual abuse allegations to be true. They wrote numerous articles published in the IPT Journal (their own inhouse publishing group) supporting their position and advising attorneys representing accused perpetrators of defense strategies.
The backlash included Richard Gardner, MD, a psychiatrist who, without any research or study, developed the theory of Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS). According to Gardner, allegations of child abuse leveled primarily at fathers involved in custody suits were initiated by vindictive mothers seeking to punish their former spouses for abandoning the marriage. Gardner testified in countless cases, never validating a single allegation of abuse and never testifying on behalf of a woman.
In 1992, psychologist Jennifer Freyd, pregnant with her first child, began to recall events from childhood that caused her to feel anxious and depressed. She consulted a therapist and later, outside the therapy arena, memories of inappropriate conduct and abuse emerged. When she confronted her parents asking for verification of her memories, they denied any abuse and subsequently began writing letters to Jennifer’s university colleagues advising them
Fortunately, Jennifer’s reputation remained unscathed and she retained her faculty position at the University of Oregon. Her parents, Peter and Pamela Freyd subsequently formed the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF), founded on the principle that the real victims of child abuse allegations are the accused and that allegations based on recall of previously suppressed events are created by unscrupulous or misguided therapists. Joined in their endeavors by Underwager and Wakefield, Jolly West, Martin Orne, Richard Ofshe, Margaret Singer, Harold Leif, and others, the FMSF inspired numerous lawsuits against therapists who treated individuals alleging histories of sexual and ritual abuse.
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 03:13 PM   #153
jacque
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
Richard P. Kluft, M.D. Sandra L. Bloom M.D.
Memory
Many traumatic incidents are recalled very clearly, some are recalled only parti
and some may be absent from avaimemory for long periods of time. Generally when
traumata are recalled, the general nature of the events, memory," is well retained, but
details may be absent or supplied by a reconstructive process. Most so-called reco
memories of trauma do not take place in or in association with therapy. There is evidence
that some recovered memories are inaccurate (called confabulations or pseudo memorory
some are rather accurate, and some involve admixtures of accurate and inaccurate
components. There are no data to indicate what percentage of so-called recovered
memories are inaccurate, but there is data to indicate 47 to 95 percent of recovered
memories of conventional child abuse are confirmed, while only 1 to 3 percent of bizarre
abuse memories are confirmed (Bowman, & b). A recent study demonstrated that
74 percent of recovered memories could be confirmed (Dahlenberg, 1996). No
characteristics of memories, such as their being clear, emotional, detailed, or held with
conviction, are definitively associated with veracity)
Accordingly, considerable controversy surrounds the impact of trauma on memory,
the accuracy of memories of trauma, and the accuracy of memories of trauma that enter
awareness after a period of amnesia (ISTSS, 1998). Despite this fact, since dissociative
disorders are usually associated with trauma, the issue of memory must be addressed.
Notwithstanding the difficulties associated with autobiograpical memory, especially when
elements of memory are recovered, most authorities concur that unless memories are
processed it is difficult to bring about a full recovery in which continuity of personal identity
is restored and the patient is able to make sense of what has befallen him or her. As
treatment begins, the patient's accounts of his or her circumstances should be heard with
empathy and respect. It is not appropriate to begin treatment with efforts to document or
disconfirm the patient's allegations of traumatization, although a decision may be made to
do so if it is the patient's wish to do so. It is not appropriate to assume that other sources'
disagreement with the patient's given history invalidate it, especially if these other sources
might be culpable if the patient's allegations were accurate. Therefore, this theraputic
work is pursued, but appropriate cautions memory issues are provided to the patient
(acknowledging both the importance of work with autobiographical memories of trauma in
the treatment of trauma, and the difficulties that may be encountered in work with human
memory), whose treatment occurs under the aegis of informed consent which is
documented. It is not appropriate for the therapist either to assume that an allegations of
trauma is trfalse, or that all continuously held memories are accurate, and all
memories returning to awareness, or emerging in the course of therapy false.
Clinicians should be aware that the only proof of the accuracy or inaccuracy of a memory Is
reliable corroboration by external evidence or witnesses other than alleged abusers
Without corroboration, legal action on the basis of memories that emerge in the course of
therapy are usually contraindicted.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Mental health professionals should promote awareness of victimizations, a
biopsychosocial phenomenon, as important in the development of psychopathology,
>increased comorbidity for both mental and physical disorders, and economic costs to
society. Accordingly, psychiatry should advocate for education about victimization
trauma-related disorders, and the treatment of the victimization in residency training. In
addition, psychiatrists should advocate for insurance to provide trauma victims with
access for care adequate to their need, which are often long-term. Psychiatrists should
support the systematic assessment of patients for histories of trauma, for ttauma-
related disorders, and for the sequelae of trauma as part of routine psychiatric, medical,
and medical emergency assessment. This includes encouraging psychiatrist in
practice to obtain up-to-date knowledge about trauma, its consequences, and its
treatment. Psychiatrists should support both clinical assessments and research that
studies the impact of trauma on the individual, family, and community, and that studies
factors associated with an individual's being vulnerable to disruption by trauma and
with resilience. There needs to be increasingly robust scienmemory as it is
relevant to the treatment of the traumatized, which clearly indicates the polarized
positions that recovered memories are inherently reliable and that recovered memories
are inherently unreliable, are inconsistent with established data.

5 pages of References follow
jacque is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 04:02 PM   #154
Fengirl
Graduate Poster
 
Fengirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Posts: 1,279
Jacque - I'm not sure if those excepts were directed at me, but the only one relating directly to the alleged tunnels seems to be your link to the Stickel report, which I had already read. It doesn't contain the answer to my question.

To repeat, my question was: If those findings are correct, and a complex network of tunnels did in fact exist beneath the school, how, when and by whom do you believe they were filled in?

Thanks.
Fengirl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 04:18 PM   #155
pipelineaudio
Illuminator
 
pipelineaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,748
This is utter hillarity if you will take one step in closer of a look:

forget tunnels

tunnels?

HAH a mere pittance!

These tunnels were allged to have connected to rooms sooo vast, like the ones we see in make believe on tv with sconces holding torches on the wall and stuff.

You are talking MAJOR subterranean pockets here
__________________
Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it
pipelineaudio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 06:02 PM   #156
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,986
Sorry to post this without reading what has been said already. I'll go back later and read more. But I had to comment having seen the Frontline program on the Little Rascals preschool which went through a similar event. I was so upset about the outcome for the kitchen worker I sent her money to help pay her legal defense. She was a mother too and there she was in jail, her child wrongly deprived of a mother.

There was no evidence against anyone if I recall except the kids' tainted testimony after overzealous interviewers talked to them. The kitchen worker was offered a plea deal and release but instead chose to fight the claims. She literally got a life sentence. (She was then released to home detainment at her mother's house and finally the conviction overturned and charges dropped.) Then they used the fact the people took the plea bargains as "evidence" something happened. Very sad.

Quote:
Dawn Wilson

She turned down all plea bargains and at trial, four children testified against her, and she was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

Betsey Kelly

In January of 1994, Betsey Kelly, had by now been in prison for two years awaiting trial. She accepted a plea of "no contest," and a sentence of seven years in prison. She served an additional year in prison and was released.

Case overturned

Six months after Betsey's release, the Appellate Court of North Carolina overturned the convictions of both Bob Kelly and Dawn Wilson, stating that there were legal errors by the prosecution. On May 23, 1997, the prosecution dropped all charges related to the Little Rascals case against the two.
I believe, but I'm not certain, Betsy Kelly lost any bid to appeal with the plea bargain and still has the conviction of child molester on her record.

There is a wealth of research now available showing how easy it is to not only get kids to say certain things, but kids and adults can then believe they have memories of events that did not happen. When you have evidence the interviewers went about it in a way likely to get false answers, then you find absolutely no corroborating evidence, you have to conclude it didn't happen.

Sadly if the introduced memories stick, the kids are possibly going to be stuck with the belief it happened. And for parents who don't look at the science behind these actions, they are going to believe something happened that didn't. If the day care workers aren't convicted, those parents will be very angry. And for the workers, they have the most to lose. I have empathy for everyone except the incompetent interviewers.

I also think it's really sad for people like Robert Kelly who because they are male, are seen as guilty when the female child care workers are not. If I were a man I would never work in a day care for fear of just these kinds of accusations.
__________________
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 16th February 2007 at 06:13 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 07:50 PM   #157
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Jackie,
We can read, thank you. You can just cite the links, and then tell us what conclusion you're drawing from them,... or what conclusions you'd like us to draw from them,... and then we can discuss them.

Thus far, all I can conclude is that everyone who disagrees with you is either a satanist or a paedophile, or someone who has an abnormal interest in those subjects.

Personally, I like evidence. I'd like to see some, in hard form, not a selection of cherry-picked opinion pieces. Aren't any of the actual trial documents available?


Addendum: Someone mentioned that it was perhaps suspicious that the Johnson boy did not testify. This may not be accurate, although I believe his mother force-fed him most of his wild tales. The actual situation at the trial was that as his mother had died, his father had custody and refused to allow the child to testify. (Maybe because he just didn't want him exposed to the spotlight, or maybe because it was the defence who wanted to call him, in an effort to get Johnson's files introduced into evidence.)
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 09:09 PM   #158
Chris Haynes
Perfectly Poisonous Person
 
Chris Haynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West
Posts: 4,427
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
...These tunnels were allged to have connected to rooms sooo vast, like the ones we see in make believe on tv with sconces holding torches on the wall and stuff.

You are talking MAJOR subterranean pockets here
Also some child claimed that they would swing on a plumbing pipe at one point. Now, if a child actually did swing on plumbing it would break. The water pipes are not that big, and if they were cast iron waste pipes they would more than likely too big for a preschooler's hand to get around (having remodeled a 60 year old house for ten years and we were very hands on when building our house... the one where I put insulation on all the hot water supply pipes).

It just does not sound plausible.

Plus... these questions have not been answered:

1) Did Judy Johnson have a psychotic episode that required hospitalization? Reference March 1985, bottom of page. Yes or No?

2) Why did she die late in 1986?


Anyway, carry on...
__________________
I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids

"HCN, I hate you!"
( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )...
What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/
Chris Haynes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 10:37 PM   #159
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,986
Originally Posted by jacque View Post
...
Yeah, I would have believed all you read, too if I hadn't lived it.
Religious Tolerance defends real satanists and witches. That is fine, don't get me wrong. I think they claim they are harmless as they well may be. That should be their fight if people are falsely accusing them of child molestation and worse. They don't want to hear form anyone like pesky little me who lived through it..so mote it be for them I personally don't care for satanists, ...
The Religious Tolerance web site has well reasoned and fairly well documented/supported statements. Their beliefs about any religion, as well yours are not what most of us here look for when we decide a citation is more credible or less credible. The 'Educate yourself' website, on the other hand, makes outrageous unsupported claims. It isn't the least bit credible.
__________________
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2007, 10:46 PM   #160
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,986
Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
That, to my mind, is pretty conclusive; particularly the second. Information like this, though thin on the ground among all the sensational stuff, eventually convinced me that there had been abuse, though I never quite bought all the satanic stuff, and wasn't paying a lot of attention when the whole tunnel thing came up. I lived, BTW, in Northern California at the time, and although it wasn't as big a story there as it was in LA, it got plenty of coverage both in the papers and on TV.
I might buy this if, we had more to go on about what "positive" exam for abuse meant (not that I want J to disclose anything personal about her child's exam but that statement by itself could mean anything.) And if the body language described was again, documented to have meaning, to have the meaning implied, and was objectively observed.

We are most all aware how one takes an astrology reading or Nostradamus quatrain and 'reads' into it. What would be more reliable would be an objective IE uninvolved observer and specific body language that is documented to indicate a particular emotion regarding a subject being discussed.
__________________
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:20 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.