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Old 29th January 2007, 04:47 PM   #41
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
Anyone who has done serious research into 9/11 will come to the inescapable conclusion that rogue elements of the government orchestrated the attacks as a false flag operation to arouse patriotism so the nation would support a war of global domination.
Just a general comment on your preface: I always find it amusing when "truthers" claim "inescapable conclusions" or "overwhelming evidence" but somehow can't even come to agreement about what those "conclusions" are. Did real planes fly into the buildings, or did they not? If they were real planes, were they the commercial flights claimed by the FAA or were they substitutes? If there is "overwhelming evidence" that the towers were intentionally demolished, was it by conventional explosives, thermite, or Death Star beam weapons? If the conclusions are so inescapable, why is it "you guys" can't seem to agree on even the basic details?
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:47 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
Anyone who has done serious research into 9/11 will come to the inescapable conclusion that rogue elements of the government orchestrated the attacks as a false flag operation to arouse patriotism so the nation would support a war of global domination.
This is where I stop reading. Lots of people, having done serious research about the matter, obviously do not come to this conclusion. Even if they are downright hostile to the Bush administration and would have every political reason to believe in such a conspiracy.

Since you're starting off with such an obviously false statement, I kind of lose interest in reading any further.
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
Another outright lie concerns the thoroughness of our air defense system. PM claims that only one airplane (Payne Stewart's ill-fated private jet) was intercepted in the decade prior to 9/11. Not true. Sixty-seven of them occurred in just the one year before 9/11 alone. The 'one intercept' lie serves to back another one of PM's lies: that the Airforce was previously only trained to handle foreign attacks, coming from beyond our borders, and that the U.S. continental mainland was a defenseless donut-hole. Blatant falsehood.
Please allow us to examine the evidence you have for the 67 intercept claim.
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:48 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by CptColumbo View Post
If you want to point out any specific errors in the PM book, I have my copy in front of me, just mention a page number and paragraph. I also am in occasional contact with one of the journalists on the original article, so he can clarify any questions not immediately obvious. We can work through this slowly and carefully, and maybe both learn something.

well, can you address pages 40-41? That is the ongoing "discussion" at the Amazon.com review for this book.

seems that the pseudo-engineers who read this book, think that pages 40-41 makes the entire book false.

Quote:
Low Sales Rank is Telling--This Book is a Fraud, January 20, 2007
Reviewer:G. Espada (Somerville, MA USA) - See all my reviews
A young fellow handed me this book while I was in public explaining to people the problems with the official story. It was light reading, and it didn't take me long to get to pages 40-41, where the authors claim that three "experts" who support the official account, told them that "they believed" that the molten steel discovered by workers on the rubble pile of the twin towers could have resulted from the fires underneath the rubble growing hotter and hotter to the point of melting the steel. Why? Because they were covered, and not exposed to the air which would have cooled them. Well, except that fire needs air to burn, and no fire can burn any hotter than whatever is fueling it can burn. What exactly in those rubble piles was burning at a temperature of 2800 degrees, required to melt steel? Jet fuel itself can only burn at 1800, and that when mixed in ideal proportion with... air. To quote David Ray Griffin, whose incredibly detailed and painstakingly researched books all far outsell this one, "such a desperate lie is a sure sign of a cover-up." If you enjoy being taken for a fool, buy this book. If you want to know what happened on 9/11, assume that everything in it, like the example I've cited is pure dishonest cover-up of a shocking truth.
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:49 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Horatious
And the only real argument you supply against the book is a piddly little critique of the language used?
It's not really even a part of the book, it's the forward . . . to the hardcover edition.
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:50 PM   #46
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Hi, kameelyun.

No, I don't think you've ruffled any feathers here. We see opinion pieces like yours all the time here and are not impressed. Your factual knowledge of the subject matter is poor.

It's important to remember that in order for your call for a new investigation to be taken seriously, you must present evidence that matches or exceeds the quality of evidence for the claim you're trying to refute. I suggest picking one "official version" claim that you think is especially vulnerable and bringing all your guns to bear on that.

You may want to use the search function here before starting a new discussion thread: we've discussed most of the major 9/11 topics ad nauseum.

As for building 7, before continuing with that argument you may want to read the first responder accounts of the damage and fires in my paper here (link will download PDF).
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:54 PM   #47
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*brings out big bag of popcorn*
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:56 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
well, can you address pages 40-41? That is the ongoing "discussion" at the Amazon.com review for this book.

seems that the pseudo-engineers who read this book, think that pages 40-41 makes the entire book false.
They are saying that
Quote:
..the fires were confined and lost minimal heat to the atmosphere.
They are not saying that the area was air tight.
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:56 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SLOB View Post
*brings out big bag of popcorn*
More a puke bag.

(it's going to be a wild ride)
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:56 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
I knew this would be the kind of flaming I would receive.
Flames? What flames? Flames would be if we said something like:

"You [rule8]ing [rule8]s are nothing more than a bunch of [rule8]s who'd [rule8] a penguin with a flaming [rule8]. Go [rule8] you father in the [rule8], you [rule8] sniffing [rule8]bite. Why don't you pay your [rule8] to [rule8] you in the [rule8]hole while they [rule8] your eyeless skull?"

See, that's a flame. What we've been doing is debunking you with reason, facts and logic.

So go [rule8] a penguin, [rule8]bite.

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Old 29th January 2007, 04:58 PM   #51
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*YAWN*
Boring! Same old stuff, different poster.
Got it. We're shills, sheeple, deluded, can't see the truth, yada, yada.

Try posting something that actually backs up this drivel.

Thank you.
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Old 29th January 2007, 04:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by CptColumbo View Post
They are not saying that the area was air tight.
And that's how you address whatever questions you have Kameelyun.

Give a specific point, anything you have question about. Do not add your own "interpretation" or guesswork...just give a point that you have trouble understanding or have question on.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:01 PM   #53
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BTW, happy bday Jim!



(boy, there's alot of skeptics born in January!)
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:02 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JimBenArm View Post
*YAWN*
Boring! Same old stuff, different poster.
Got it. We're shills, sheeple, deluded, can't see the truth, yada, yada.

Try posting something that actually backs up this drivel.

Thank you.
Did you mention gatekeepers?

And HAPPY BIRTHDAY, sub driver Jim! Hope it's great, and hope you have another 50 or so twice as good!
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:04 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
This isn't flaming. It's asking you to prove your claims.

You are required to provide evidence for your claims. If I claimed that Darth Vader shot down the WTC with the Death Star, I would be required to prove that A. Darth Vader exists B. The Death Star exists C. Darth Vader was at the WTC with the Death Star.
Ahhahhahahaha...I'm using this from now on when I debate people.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:06 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by DiskoVilante View Post
Ahhahhahahaha...I'm using this from now on when I debate people.
Oh pu-lease, everyone knows Vadar isn't bright enough to pull something like that off. It would have had to have been Admiral Thrawn.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:08 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Oh pu-lease, everyone knows Vadar isn't bright enough to pull something like that off. It would have had to have been Admiral Thrawn.
I find your lack of faith disturbing...
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:09 PM   #58
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Remember guys and gals....we have all been duped by the government if we believe 9/11 wasn't an inside job.

Hilarious.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:10 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Oh pu-lease, everyone knows Vadar isn't bright enough to pull something like that off. It would have had to have been Admiral Thrawn.
yeah right, like some blue cave-alien could do 9/11
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:10 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Oh pu-lease, everyone knows Vadar isn't bright enough to pull something like that off. It would have had to have been Admiral Thrawn.
Not smart enough?!?! Hello? Alderaan?


I thought people would be happy I didn't use a Star Trek reference this time.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:10 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
I knew this would be the kind of flaming I would receive.

As a truth seeker, I am not required to have all the answers.

This is why we're calling for a fresh investigation.
When one makes a claim, especially an extraordinary claim, evidence must be shown. You are not being flamed, you are merely being asked to provide evidence. That's all.

Nobody expects you to have all the answers. We do expect you to give us some evidence once in a while. Evidence that can be looked at and scrutinized, not mere innuendo and speculation.

Who are you calling upon for an investigation? Have you written your elected officials? Have you contacted all the media outlets?
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:11 PM   #62
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In situations like this I like to quote Robyn Williams: "De De Ja Ja Vu Vu"
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:13 PM   #63
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Smile This must be the big offensive LC was planning!

[quote]
Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
I knew this would be the kind of flaming I would receive.
Well, it would seem you certainly have more than your share of preconceived notions! And this isn't flaming, mate. Flaming would involve personal attacks.


Quote:
What exactly are "conspiracy theory" websites?
They're the ones that not only blame 9/11 on the US government, but say the Moon landing was faked, the Holocaust never happened, and that the Masons or Jews control the world, all based on little more than the web site's author's personal lunacy.


Quote:
The NIST and FEMA sites giving everyone's beloved "debris and fire" hypothesis - those themselves are CT sites! They back up the "official" conspiracy theory.
Maybe because the "official conspiracy theory" passes all the science, history, logic, and laugh tests.


Quote:
Popular Mechanics uses the 911-commission.gov as a source to back up its claims. That right there completely discredits it as "nonpolitical!"
Maybe because the 911 commission did its job reasonably properly, with qualified experts who had the actual evidence and background to study the situation. And the guys at PM had more of the same, and probably a bigger budget and more time, too.


Quote:
As a truth seeker, I am not required to have all the answers. This is why we're calling for a fresh investigation.
You don't seem to be required to have any background, experience, learning, or quals in the subject, either. More importantly, who's going to do this "fresh investigation?" A crackpot who also believes the Holocaust didn't happen?

Besides, why should I have to do YOUR term paper? You're asking the questions, go do the research and present your theory, backed up by better evidence than the "Loose Change" website.

It always cracks me up that CTers want someone else to do their work. I guess you guys think we're the WPA or something. Wrong, we're the NWO.


Quote:
The amout of swift responses I received here means I must have ruffled some feathers!

Cheers!
No, it's just that you haven't studied this outfit too well...we're a bunch of irreverent and smart folks who can recognize a stupid bill of goods and a lazy and hackneyed argument when we see one. You should go through this particular section of the site and see all the other folks we've carried off in the tumbrels, like 28thKingdom. You present the same old nonsense and act as if you're the first person to stumble on to it in human history, so we just burst out laughing, and then give the same answers we've given the other suckers...I mean applicants.

So, I'm more interested in your pathology than your theories...how did you become a conspiracy theorist. What's your grievance against the government? What do you think about Jews? Masons? NASA? How old are you? Can you give me any evidence that the US has launched any previous "false flag" attacks on its own citizens? Why would a democracy engage in such measures? What line of work are you in? Have you ever been out of your parents' basement? Do you know what the Zimmermann Telegram is? If the government is able to launch such massive conspiracies and control everything so neatly, how come the war in Iraq is such a mess, and the Republicans lost the 2006 Congressional elections? Do you know anything about chance and random event theories? How about Occam's Razor? Have you studied any philosophy besides Nietzsche? Are you familiar with Kant and Descartes? Do you think the FBI and CIA have wiretapped your phone? Do you regard yourself as the leading fighter against world conspiracies? Do you think that the Communists and the capitalists are working together to destroy the world? Why are they doing so? Why haven't they done it before?

Have fun!
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:13 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
However, there is a very strong contingent of Americans who react emotionally, rather than rationally, to any argument suggesting government complicity on any level, let alone outright orchestration.
There are certainly some that fit that description, but you're just fooling yourself (in a self-congratulatory way) to think that's an accurate description of any substantial part of the resistance to the "9/11 truth movement." The major problem I have with the "inside job" hyptheses I've heard so far is lack or rationality in them, starting with the premise all the way through the details.

Why would anyone plan such a huge, ridiculously elaborate and complicated, and extremely risky hoax (in terms of failure and getting caught), when they could have done something much simpler, with fewer people required, with far less risk of either failure or being caught, and didn't need to involve any sort of incredible illusion -- it could be exactly what it appeared to be except for who did it -- and still achieve the same objective that you claim? For example, why not just park a few huge truck bombs around and set them off simultaneously, then just blame it on al Qaeda? (For that matter, why blame it on al Qaeda if they were looking for an excuse to invade Iraq? This is one gigantic hole in the entire premise, since it's pretty clear that the Bush adminstration wasn't too concerned with al Qaeda, bin Laden, or Afghanistan.)

This is, of course, not any kind of evidence that it wasn't an "inside job," but it is the basic reason, I think, that most rational people find that hypothesis to be highly implausible, to say the least. Which simply means, if you want rational people to accept your highly implausible hypothesis over one that seems far more plausible, then you definitely need some very convincing evidence. Got any?

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Old 29th January 2007, 05:14 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
Not smart enough?!?! Hello? Alderaan?


I thought people would be happy I didn't use a Star Trek reference this time.
pfft, it was the Emperor's idea, and Tarkin (sp?) carried it out. Vadar was just their to do his "make it so" impersonation.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:15 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by babazaroni View Post
Please allow us to examine the evidence you have for the 67 intercept claim.
Oh! Oh! http://911myths.com/html/67_intercepts.html

What do you mean that's "not the right evidence"?
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:19 PM   #67
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[quote=Kiwiwriter;2297750]
Quote:
Have you ever been out of your parents' basement? Do you know what the Zimmermann Telegram is?
Oh, oh, oh. Mistah Kotter, I know!
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:19 PM   #68
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Maybe we should set up CT Bingo.

I bet we will shortly see mention of "Northwoods" and "USS Liberty", followed shortly by "Patriot Act" and "Black Ops CIA".
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:23 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
Not smart enough?!?! Hello? Alderaan?


I thought people would be happy I didn't use a Star Trek reference this time.
It's like bringing me McDonalds and saying you thought I'd be happy you didn't bring me Burger King. Let me say it one more time: Battlestar Galactica, Stargate or Farscape references only.

Now, if your example had been about Ba'al blowing up WTC7 from a Go'auld mothership in orbit, I would be happy.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:23 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
pfft, it was the Emperor's idea, and Tarkin (sp?) carried it out. Vadar was just their to do his "make it so" impersonation.
Yeah but didn't Darthy "let" Luke and Friends "escape" from the Death Star so's they could follow 'em and then blow up the rebs on that moon? He even sacrificed some Imperial fighters to complete the ruse. Of course Leia saw right through it. But still - the Darthster definitely showed some chutzpah with that little trick...
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It's like bringing me McDonalds and saying you thought I'd be happy you didn't bring me Burger King. Let me say it one more time: Battlestar Galactica, Stargate or Farscape references only.

Now, if your example had been about Ba'al blowing up WTC7 from a Go'auld mothership in orbit, I would be happy.
Sorry, but I am a Deputy Admin. See that? Deputy Admin. And I say, Star Trek, Star Wars and Doctor Who.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:25 PM   #72
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kemeelyun. Gotta bring your 'A' game here.

Are you prepared?
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:26 PM   #73
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We're getting away from the subject.

It's not about whether Kameelyun is a bad CTist, it's about whether Kameelyun is a bad reviewer of books.
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:28 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
Sorry, but I am a Deputy Admin. See that? Deputy Admin. And I say, Star Trek, Star Wars and Doctor Who.
I don't know much about a Tardis, but I know someone who's a 'tard.

Too far? Did I take it too far?
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:28 PM   #75
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Smile Now, Horshack....

[quote=CptColumbo;2297766]
Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter View Post

Oh, oh, oh. Mistah Kotter, I know!

That's the attitude I'm trying to eliminate! Now, did I ever tell you about my Uncle Manny?
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:30 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
We're getting away from the subject.

It's not about whether Kameelyun is a bad CTist, it's about whether Kameelyun is a bad reviewer of books.
Quite right LL. I'd like to see his review of Catcher In The Rye, just to "compare and contrast" or maybe Day Of The Triffids. (Do kids still read those books at school these days?)
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:30 PM   #77
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I look forward to you "ruffling some more feathers", kameelyun.



Incidentally what do you reckon happened on 911?
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:32 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by stateofgrace View Post
I look forward to you "ruffling some more feathers", kameelyun.



Incidentally what do you reckon happened on 911?
Perhaps kameelyun thinks we are a bunch of uneducated 13 year olds?
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:33 PM   #79
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Smile True, true, true indeed....

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
We're getting away from the subject.

It's not about whether Kameelyun is a bad CTist, it's about whether Kameelyun is a bad reviewer of books.

Well, all CTers are bad CTers, so there shouldn't be much debate there. But as for his book reviews...that one stank, but I'll reserve judgment on the rest until he shares them with us. I'd like to see his views on the movie "Capricorn One," next. I still say OJ Simpson did it!
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Old 29th January 2007, 05:34 PM   #80
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Talking Probably so....

Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Perhaps kameelyun thinks we are a bunch of uneducated 13 year olds?
He studied this website and its membership about as well as he studied 9/11.
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