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Old 20th April 2018, 08:15 AM   #1201
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
All the Litvinenko-related stuff (going back to the kick-out of malicious oligarchs Putin did), Georgia, Ukraine, Crimea, Russia helping Syria against the western-created Islamist zombie army,
Business as usual then. There were no incidents or events between the UK and Russia on March 1st that led to heightened tensions between the 2 countries.

Of the things you list (what the hell is a zombie army btw?) Georgia was a decade ago, litvenenko was 2012, Crimea 2014, nothing much was happening in Syria until Assad very recently decided to break out the chemical weapons.

Have a look at this. It's a long article detailing how Putin got into power, and how he maintains it by inventing and crushing enemies and pushing the boundaries to project and maintain a strongman image.

He makes bold steps from time to time, things like Georgia or Crimea and gets away with it because Russia is a nuclear power so noone is going to go to war with them. Invading Crimea, shooting down passenger planes on flimsy pretexts, poisoning enemies of the state on foreign soil, all cold calculated acts to maintain his grip on power. The rest of the world loudly murmurs it's disapproval of all of these things, but won't ever do anything substantial about it because he has a nuclear arsenal to hand.

Quote:
I mean, why do I even have to type this?
Because I want to understand your reasoning.

You said there was a "already heated situation" between Russia and the UK prior to the Skripal poisoning.

What was it? It certainly wasn't any of the things you wrote above.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:26 AM   #1202
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
It doesn't "prove" anything. It shows that the "opportunity" Ambrosia says only "the Russians" had is not even defined. There is no description of how and by whom the crime was committed, after all those weeks. Door knob, car ventilation, who knows. Nobody saw VV or anybody else. Sherlock would cringe and point to the bad story teller.
Now confirmed. Trying to fog the issue by referring to all the previous unofficial speculation is a classic conspiracy theory trick.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:32 AM   #1203
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Fair point. They've done so much bad stuff, simple probability suggests that any new bad stuff must have been done by someone else.

Dave
You don't seem to have any abstract sense of justice. Putin's policy in Crimea and Ukraine and Syria is logical from a Russian perspective and even fair and just. You can't just superficially accuse people of crimes with false evidence. That's slander and libel, even if it never reaches a court case.

Shakespeare understood all this:

Quote:
Fear no more the lightning-flash,
Nor the all-dread thunder-stone;
Fear not slander, censure rash;
Thou hast finished joy and moan;
All lovers young, all lovers must
Consign to thee, and come to dust.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:34 AM   #1204
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
What is with Boris Johnson taking big money for a tennis match with a Russian oligarch's daughter or what it was?
I think this exemplifies the sort of misrepresentation you come out with all too often. Said oligarch's wife got to play tennis with Johnson because he (the oligarch) was the highest bidder in a Conservative Party fund-raising auction. I daresay he was probably happy to cough up the £160,000 anyway, and what he - or rather his wife - got for it was just "fun" window-dressing. The money will also have gone to the Conservative Party centrally, not Johnson personally.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 20th April 2018 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:39 AM   #1205
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I think this exemplifies the sort of misrepresentation you come out with all too often.
What happened to all that money Boris Johnson was given by a Russian oligarch for playing a tennis match? Dare I say it's bribery and corruption?
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Old 20th April 2018, 08:42 AM   #1206
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
What happened to all that money Boris Johnson was given by a Russian oligarch for playing a tennis match? Dare I say it's bribery and corruption?
See amended post - there is no evidence that Johnson himself got the money.
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Old 20th April 2018, 09:20 AM   #1207
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
What happened to all that money Boris Johnson was given by a Russian oligarch for playing a tennis match? Dare I say it's bribery and corruption?
I'm told you can find out if you spend 3 seconds searching.

Yes, self evidently you dare say it. Do you have any reason to think it's true?
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Old 20th April 2018, 10:03 AM   #1208
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Mod Warning Return to the topic please, which for the avoidance of doubt is not Tory Party fundraising.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:04 PM   #1209
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Do you want me to return the silly favour for the foreseeable future or are you going to answer my question?
Can I take it you have now learnt what "chemical weapon" (as referenced by the likes of the Russian government) means?

If so can we go onto the question I asked you, to paraphrase: do you believe they were victims of a chemical weapon attack?
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:02 PM   #1210
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I think we should just give Russia the benefit of the doubt.

They have already lied about them not engaging in constant psychological warfare on the internet, not supporting Trump's presidential campaign or hacking anything in America, not invading Crimea and annexing it, not supporting pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine, not being responsible for shooting down MH17... Bashar Al-Assad's definitively not using chemical weapons and committing other war crimes either (he's a democratically elected president too, just like Putin is!).

On the other hand it's pretty obvious that we cant trust the British because they lied about Iraqi WMD's.
I forgot to add: Russia lied about poisoning Alexander Litovenko with Polonium-210 in the UK, an incredibly exotic and radioactive chemical element that can only be produced in appreciative quantities in a research reactor.

Because of its radioactive nature the two murderous thugs, who spiked Litovenkos tea with the poison, also managed to leave a trail for investigators to follow leaving no doubts to their identity. These two former FSB agents had made it home to Russia and were subsequently became members of parliament as a reward for murdering someone.

Even-though Russia's bold faced lies are obviously not believable the big difference, compared from back then and now, is that now Russia doesn't have to rely on a few token useful idiots and crackpot conspiracy theorists to parrot their propaganda: they can also rely on paid internet trolls and bots to spread propaganda on the internet every single day.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:24 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I forgot to add: Russia lied about poisoning Alexander Litovenko with Polonium-210 in the UK, an incredibly exotic and radioactive chemical element that can only be produced in appreciative quantities in a research reactor.

Because of its radioactive nature the two murderous thugs, who spiked Litovenkos tea with the poison, also managed to leave a trail for investigators to follow leaving no doubts to their identity. These two former FSB agents had made it home to Russia and were subsequently became members of parliament as a reward for murdering someone.

Even-though Russia's bold faced lies are obviously not believable the big difference, compared from back then and now, is that now Russia doesn't have to rely on a few token useful idiots and crackpot conspiracy theorists to parrot their propaganda: they can also rely on paid internet trolls and bots to spread propaganda on the internet every single day.
One was even treated for radiation poisoning.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:11 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
MikeG is from the UK, so that would be MI6 or something.

James Bond did kill a lot though.
I understood MikeG's "we" as the wider "western world", not just the UK.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:15 PM   #1213
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Have you read what Shulgin presented to the OPCW?

That is perfidious. James Bond style wickedness.
You left out this part of his speech:
Quote:
In other words, this document confirms that in the United States the “Novichok”-type nerve agents were not just produced but also patented as a chemical weapon. And not some long time ago, but just a couple of years ago – the patent is dated December 1, 2015.
That clearly does not follow. It only follows that the patent applicant had vaguely heard about the existence of Novichok agents and that some of them were in binary form.

He clearly does not understand how patent law works, or chooses to act like he doesn't understand (with anyone in an official capacity, I opt for the latter rather than the former).
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:20 PM   #1214
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Fair point. They've done so much bad stuff, simple probability suggests that any new bad stuff must have been done by someone else.

Dave
What is the title of the probability text book you learned that from? It sounds interesting.
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Old 20th April 2018, 04:23 PM   #1215
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You left out this part of his speech:

Intentionally.
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Old 20th April 2018, 10:52 PM   #1216
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Intentionally.
Because it was idiotic?
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Old 20th April 2018, 10:57 PM   #1217
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You left out this part of his speech:

That clearly does not follow. It only follows that the patent applicant had vaguely heard about the existence of Novichok agents and that some of them were in binary form.

He clearly does not understand how patent law works, or chooses to act like he doesn't understand (with anyone in an official capacity, I opt for the latter rather than the former).
Here's an example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4801928.stm


In 1973 British Rail patented a spaceship powered by controlled thermonuclear fusion reactions ignited by pulsed laser beams.

I guess Shulgin would use the same reasoning to assert that the UK government has produced nuclear-powered flying saucers.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 21st April 2018, 01:01 AM   #1218
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Here's an example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4801928.stm


In 1973 British Rail patented a spaceship powered by controlled thermonuclear fusion reactions ignited by pulsed laser beams.

I guess Shulgin would use the same reasoning to assert that the UK government has produced nuclear-powered flying saucers.


Quote:
With a passenger compartment upstairs, it would have been cheap to run and super-fast, according to its inventor.
As a passenger, I would feel super-safe sitting just above a power source that heats to a couple of million degrees. (this was before Pons and Fleischmann, wasn't it?)
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Old 21st April 2018, 01:54 AM   #1219
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There is some latest waffle about the Skripals case in Salisbury in the Daily Mail. I don't know how accurate this is. The PC Plods say they have suspects now in Russia, but they could be disregarding leads and suspects as usual:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=spartanntp
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Old 21st April 2018, 02:14 AM   #1220
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is some latest waffle about the Skripals case in Salisbury in the Daily Mail. I don't know how accurate this is. The PC Plods say they have suspects now in Russia, but they could be disregarding leads and suspects as usual:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=spartanntp


Well, you get some credit for linking to a reputable site for once.

The highlighted part is obvious.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 21st April 2018, 10:37 AM   #1221
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German parliamentarians are complaining that the government refuses to allow them to see the full OPCW report, saying the Brits asked them to keep it secret.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 06:46 AM   #1222
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
German parliamentarians are complaining that the government refuses to allow them to see the full OPCW report, saying the Brits asked them to keep it secret.
When the OPCW make a "classified report available to state parties" do you know what conditions they impose on its further distribution? Nor do I. But I note it's the OPCW who use the term 'classified' which clearly indicates restrictions exist.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 06:53 AM   #1223
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
When the OPCW make a "classified report available to state parties" do you know what conditions they impose on its further distribution? Nor do I. But I note it's the OPCW who use the term 'classified' which clearly indicates restrictions exist.

As the MP in my link mentions, there are mechanisms for making sure that the representatives have access to information the public hasn't. That these channels are not opened despite repeated requests is unusual, hence the complain.

And the German government says it is denying access because of a request by the British government, not by the OPCW.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 22nd April 2018 at 07:02 AM. Reason: +second paragraph
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Old 22nd April 2018, 08:22 AM   #1224
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Because they don't want intelligence channels and assets compromised.

It's not hard to understand.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 08:44 AM   #1225
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because they don't want intelligence channels and assets compromised.

It's not hard to understand.
More like a cover-up. I agree a secret service must be secret, but that's not an excuse for bare faced lies.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 09:12 AM   #1226
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because they don't want intelligence channels and assets compromised.

It's not hard to understand.

This is about the OPCW taking samples in plain daylight. Your excuses are beyond laughable at this point.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 11:06 AM   #1227
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If it's a cover up then it's a curious sort of conspiracy as it involves all of the governments who received the confidential report. This would include the Russian government, would it not?
My initial thought was that they don't want the precise formulation of the poison to be widely shared. Whatever the reason, it's not to conceal anything from Russia, as they get their own copy of the report.
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Old Yesterday, 01:05 AM   #1228
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
What is the title of the probability text book you learned that from? It sounds interesting.
It's a multi-volume work, the latest installation of which you can find here.

Dave
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