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Old Yesterday, 10:06 PM   #761
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I understand it; there's just no evidence to suggest it happening in this case. Everything we have indicates these guys were honestly just waiting for a friend - who did arrive during the incident, I might add - and were legitimately caught by surprise when the police showed up and told them they had to leave.
Yes, and?
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Old Yesterday, 10:10 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you and Thermal not understand standing one's ground when the circumstances arise?



Seriously?


I think that’s exactly what happened here. They were being asked to leave, saw others sitting around not ordering, concluded it was a race motivated action and they stood their ground. Good on them.



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Old Yesterday, 10:59 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I understand it; there's just no evidence to suggest it happening in this case. Everything we have indicates these guys were honestly just waiting for a friend - who did arrive during the incident, I might add - and were legitimately caught by surprise when the police showed up and told them they had to leave.
Indeed, that is my impression too. And that is corroborated by the admission of the (now ex-) manager of the store that it was her personal policy that she'd call the police without warning the unwanted patrons that she'd do so.

It is not clear what happened before the cops showed up at the store; there are conflicting accounts. One thing that seems certain is that they were refused the bathroom code. But what has the manager said to them before she called 911?
1) Did she actually ask them to order?
In an interview, she claimed there was a policy, germane only to Philly Center stores, that ordering is obligatory.
2) Are those house rules posted in-store, so that patrons can read them?
3) Did she point out that house rule when asking them to order?
In the 911 call, she simply said she had two patrons who "refused to order or to leave". But it's not clear what she actually asked them herself. Even if she'd put it that way, that's no direct way to ask them to leave.
4) Did she ask them to leave?
5) Did she ask them to leave a second time, adding that they failed to obey the first demand to leave?
I don't know about the precise conditions for trespass under US (or PA) law, but under Dutch law, those would all be essential elements for it to become trespass and thus a crime. And I would even add as an extra cautionary step:
6) Ask them a third time to leave, warning that you'll call the cops.

My impression of the whole thing, though, is that the manager did none or very few of those steps. She seems to have taken an approach that favors quick escalation.

The cops didn't put in any thinking about the situation either. Dispatch had morphed the story into a "disturbance". In my understanding of that word, you'd need at least some obviously unruly, yelling customers, if not an outright altercation. But nothing of the kind - they see two patrons who sit quietly at their table minding their own business. They should at least have been surprised to see that and ask the manager for an explanation what's really going on, but on the video, we see none of that.
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Old Yesterday, 11:39 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, and?
And after a couple of minutes trying to appeal to the police to wait until their friend arrived, the police compelled them to get up and leave - which they did, without any resistance or argument.

So again...where was the protest?
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Old Today, 03:16 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The manager of a store is the agent of the owner and has the right to ask a loiterer to leave, and call the cops if necessary. Cops have no obligation to research franchise policy. The agent of the owner asked that they be removed. The police act on that agent's direction.



Yes. We know. That is why it is the manager who is the bad guy. Not Bucks. Not the cops. The manager.
.
And of course cops have no business listening to things like witness testimony of the other patrons and anything like that. What cop would ever do that? That is now how policing works!
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Old Today, 03:19 AM   #766
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The reporting. Unless you are projecting some alternate reporting?
So protesting the managers illegal actions against store policy is now not protesting? Protesting the police enforcing the managers illegal actions despite the testimony of everyone else there?

You have an odd view of what is and is not OK to protest. They did not go there to protest but when subject to injustice why shouldn't they protest?
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Old Today, 03:19 AM   #767
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I know people like to find examples of racism,
This is really interesting phrasing.
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Old Today, 03:20 AM   #768
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Why you think that matters for my observation. You accuse others, basically, of not arguing in good faith. That when they say they are standing up to this event because they honestly believe it reflects racism they are virtue signaling instead, but when you relate how you have done it it's to honestly advance your argument. The biggest irony is, of course, that the way it advances your argument is to lend credibility to your observations because you're not beyond seeing racism and standing up to it...which of course is a virtue...
Nonsense he was clearly just trying to ruin the careers of those women for the LOLZ.
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Old Today, 03:21 AM   #769
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so honest, no ulterior motive question.

What should happen to the two officers? Fired? Extra training? Actually being charged with misconduct?
2? There were like 6 there.
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Old Today, 03:24 AM   #770
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You're not making any sense.

The story that has been reported, and has never once been contradicted by video evidence or the statement of any witness, is that the men came in to wait for a friend they were meeting, at one point asked for and were denied a restroom pass, but otherwise calmly sat down at a table until the police arrived and told them the manager wanted them to leave. At no time has anyone stated that the men were engaging in any kind of activism or protest; there's nothing on the captured video to suggest that's the case either.
They had nothing to protest until the police showed up. Clearly people subjected to illegal racial profiling need to learn to suck it up at all times and go with it.
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Old Today, 03:25 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I understand it; there's just no evidence to suggest it happening in this case. Everything we have indicates these guys were honestly just waiting for a friend - who did arrive during the incident, I might add - and were legitimately caught by surprise when the police showed up and told them they had to leave.
And then they had no right to stand their ground because the police are always in the right!
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Old Today, 03:27 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Here's another one. https://boingboing.net/2018/04/18/la...ack-man-i.html



The outcome? "L.A. Fitness has fired a manager and two employees at a New Jersey gym where two black men were kicked out Monday night in an incident captured on video and shared on social media, according to a salesman there."

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2...g_2_men_o.html

The most disturbing thing here is not necessarily the overt racism of the employees*, but the fact that they live in a world where they believe they can act on that racism with impunity. They clearly, at the time, believed their management, company and any media would either ignore or poorly report this. That racists are so empowered to be so very overtly racist in a very public domain is a problem. These people have no fear of the stigma that should come with being a racist arse. That doesn't bode well.
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Old Today, 03:30 AM   #773
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The most disturbing thing here is not necessarily the overt racism of the employees*, but the fact that they live in a world where they believe they can act on that racism with impunity. They clearly, at the time, believed their management, company and any media would either ignore or poorly report this. That racists are so empowered to be so very overtly racist in a very public domain is a problem. These people have no fear of the stigma that should come with being a racist arse. That doesn't bode well.
They are of course correct 99+% of the time. I have to wonder how many times had the police been called to the starbucks for there being blacks meeting there in the past.
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Old Today, 04:08 AM   #774
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Donte Robinson and Rashon Nelson have given an interview for the AP. Per the WaPo:
Quote:
The men said they arrived at the Center City Starbucks at 4:35 p.m. for a 4:45 business meeting. Immediately upon walking in, Nelson asked the manager if he could use the restroom. The manager said the restrooms were for paying customers only.

“And I just left it at that,” Nelson, 23, said.

Robinson said that after Nelson got back to the table, the manager came over to their table to ask if she could help with any drinks or water. Robinson said they had water bottles with them and were waiting for a meeting.
And that was the whole of the interaction with the store personnel, according to them. Two minutes later, the manager called the police.

Starbucks has confirmed there is a policy at that particular store that the restroom is for paying customers only (source), but there's no policy against "loitering".

And going by this story, the manager filed a false report. She never informed them there would be a "purchase required" policy, nor did she ever ask them to leave. Ergo the police was also in the wrong, albeit unknowingly, because at the time they came in there was no trespass. But only a slight bit of questioning would have informed them that was the case. You gotta wonder how often this psycho, excuse me, "experienced hospitality manager", has pulled the same trick.
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Old Today, 04:14 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And going by this story, the manager filed a false report. She never informed them there would be a "purchase required" policy, nor did she ever ask them to leave. Ergo the police was also in the wrong, albeit unknowingly, because at the time they came in there was no trespass. But only a slight bit of questioning would have informed them that was the case. You gotta wonder how often this psycho, excuse me, "experienced hospitality manager", has pulled the same trick.
But learning that would require investigating and listening to witnesses, and that is something that the police are explicitly blocked from doing.
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Old Today, 06:06 AM   #776
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The most disturbing thing here is not necessarily the overt racism of the employees*, but the fact that they live in a world where they believe they can act on that racism with impunity. They clearly, at the time, believed their management, company and any media would either ignore or poorly report this. That racists are so empowered to be so very overtly racist in a very public domain is a problem. These people have no fear of the stigma that should come with being a racist arse. That doesn't bode well.
That's not new. Dolt 45 has inspired the truly violent, genocidal folks to march around with their facers exposed, but the "How dare you be not white around me, I'm calling the cops!" faction has always been around in the US for decades at least, complete with every nonwhite person I can think of pointing out one instance after the next, and a good portion of white people coming up with weak excuses for what is, on it's face, completely obvious.

(As far as I can tell, people before that point were eager to explain that they were violently racist.)

What *is* new is that it's being posted on social media sites and getting more notice now.
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Old Today, 07:57 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I don't read your posts.
then don't quote them.
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Old Today, 08:00 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Starbucks knows what side their bread is buttered on.

On which side their bread is buttered.
They are designed to be the third place between work and home, that is their marketing goal, not some sort of capitulation to these aggressive activists.
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Old Today, 08:03 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And after a couple of minutes trying to appeal to the police to wait until their friend arrived, the police compelled them to get up and leave - which they did, without any resistance or argument.
You left out the handcuffs and 6 hours in police custody.

Quote:
So again...where was the protest?
trying to engage the brain of the cop is now a protest. Good luck!
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Old Today, 08:09 AM   #780
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok. Let me ask you this.
Here are some better questions:

Why can't the cop walk up and ask how are you doing?
Why can't the cop engage the citizens as humans instead of perpetrators?
Why can't the cop tell the men that the manager has a problem with them and they would prefer to talk to them about it outside?
Why can't the cop engage in conversation?

The cops were getting through a script that would allow them to put on the cuffs: you need to leave (1), you need to leave (2), you need to leave (3), we asked you threes times and now we get to arrest you (cuffs). I would be pissed if I were a voter in that precinct. Very pissed.
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Old Today, 08:43 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Here are some better questions:

Why can't the cop walk up and ask how are you doing?
Why can't the cop engage the citizens as humans instead of perpetrators?
Why can't the cop tell the men that the manager has a problem with them and they would prefer to talk to them about it outside?
Why can't the cop engage in conversation?

The cops were getting through a script that would allow them to put on the cuffs: you need to leave (1), you need to leave (2), you need to leave (3), we asked you threes times and now we get to arrest you (cuffs). I would be pissed if I were a voter in that precinct. Very pissed.
Would you mind telling me where you found this clear audio of the beginning if the interaction, where you can hear what was initially said? I can only find audio of the end of the altercation.
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Old Today, 09:01 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And after a couple of minutes trying to appeal to the police to wait until their friend arrived, the police compelled them to get up and leave - which they did, without any resistance or argument.

So again...where was the protest?
You mean when the police compelled them with handcuffs and took them off to jail?

You may have a different definition of protest than I do.
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Old Today, 09:44 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You mean when the police compelled them with handcuffs and took them off to jail?

You may have a different definition of protest than I do.
Still projecting the protester narrative? Ok, please allow me to project another random speculation:

These men are known to the manager and police to be dealers, but the other customers are unaware of this. Manager and cops want them out because of their suspicions and concern for public safety without causing a scene. Who are the bad guys now?

You projecting this civil rights protester meme is the same as me projecting a drug dealer scenario. Both may fit the facts but neither are supported by the evidence.
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Old Today, 10:22 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Still projecting the protester narrative? Ok, please allow me to project another random speculation:

These men are known to the manager and police to be dealers, but the other customers are unaware of this. Manager and cops want them out because of their suspicions and concern for public safety without causing a scene. Who are the bad guys now?

You projecting this civil rights protester meme is the same as me projecting a drug dealer scenario. Both may fit the facts but neither are supported by the evidence.


Are we just making **** up now?

In mine, one of these people is secretly Clarke Kent and the other is Bruce Wayne.
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Old Today, 10:23 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are we just making **** up now?

In mine, one of these people is secretly Clarke Kent and the other is Bruce Wayne.
Pretty sure that started a few pages back.
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Old Today, 10:26 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Still projecting the protester narrative? Ok, please allow me to project another random speculation:

These men are known to the manager and police to be dealers, but the other customers are unaware of this. Manager and cops want them out because of their suspicions and concern for public safety without causing a scene. Who are the bad guys now?

You projecting this civil rights protester meme is the same as me projecting a drug dealer scenario. Both may fit the facts but neither are supported by the evidence.
The 911 call where the manager doesn't mention this at all would seem to contradict this fairy tale.
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Old Today, 10:39 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The 911 call where the manager doesn't mention this at all would seem to contradict this fairy tale.
Read the whole post. It's short. Think hard.

TL,DR: I am satirizing SG's pretending that the men were staging an impromptu civil rights protest by adding my own BS to the reporting.
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