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Tags bigfoot , cryptozoology , mufon , ufos

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Old 29th October 2009, 10:49 AM   #81
William Parcher
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You can see one of their "bait areas" on the satellite. One image is from my GoogleEarth, and the other is from Path of the Skinwalker.

Quote:
George Knapp: On this night, I am the bait. Bait for what, I wonder? The unspoken hope is my own inherent weirdness quotient might give me some sort of connection to the undeniably odd energy, or entity, that seems to have concentrated itself on this remote rural community, and, in particular, on this small ranch where I now sit, waiting for something to announce its presence.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg baittower.jpg (55.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg bait tow2.jpg (26.6 KB, 284 views)
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Old 29th October 2009, 12:25 PM   #82
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There are two active Skinwalker threads over on BFF.

Skinwalker Ranch

skinwalkers


But, I guess Paul the BFF owner forgot what he said two years ago to a poster that got banned after 174 posts.


Bigfoot is in control

Originally Posted by Paul1968UK
The Skinwalker book discusses supernatural events - that isn't what this forum is for.

If you want to discuss the supernatural, there are plenty of more suitable forms out there.
Now the supernatural and paranormal are getting time on BFF. It's creeping in there in various sections. There are many forum members that are stimulated and want to talk about paranormal Bigfoot.
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Old 30th October 2009, 10:06 AM   #83
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A remark – not seeking to get here, into what topics should or should not be permitted on any forum; but in my understanding it is not, and has not been, stated BFF policy to prohibit outright, any airing of notions of paranormal / supernatural aspects to Bigfoot.

To quote a section of BFF’s posting guidelines: “Bigfoot are flesh and blood animals, albeit very intelligent and stealthy ones. We do not believe Bigfoot are interdimensional, of another world, shape shifting, can disappear, are Republicans, Democrats, or otherwise. If you feel they are any of these things, you’re still welcome to participate, but don’t expect to find many in your camp.” Thus – by general consensus I think – ideas re BF as conceivably other than purely-flesh-and-blood-strictly-of-this-world MAY be propounded on BFF, but are not well-regarded by the great majority of those who frequent the forums; you can propound them, but if you do -- expect those notions to be fiercely lambasted in the overall discussion. Some quite recent exchanges on BFF, have confirmed that this deal still obtains.

In at least one post by him BFF, Paul1968UK himself has stated that in his own “take” on the entire business, he keeps a door slightly ajar to the contingency of paranormal / spectral aspects to the phenomenon. With that, vis-à-vis his words cited in the above post: attempting to make allowances -- things are said in the heat of the moment and under annoyance; and for sure, no person who has ever lived, has always been 100% consistent in every facet of their life.
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Old 31st October 2009, 12:16 PM   #84
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Skinwalker: as I mentioned before in this thread, I live quite close to the ranch.

I will NOT trespass on private property, but what would you think about taking me to one of these places "around but not on" the Skinwalker ranch property? Then I could see for myself what you are looking at. I would be very interested in flaming balls & smoke wolves. I've been hiking, camping & backpacking solo since I was a teen, woods at night don't freak me out, so no problem there.

I'm not interested in paying for a tour, though, I can tour myself around the area. I would hope you'd be willing to take me to these places so you could show a skeptic these phenomena.

What do you think?
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Old 31st October 2009, 12:45 PM   #85
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$Money$ talks - skeptics walk...
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Old 31st October 2009, 01:44 PM   #86
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by fleabeetle View Post
A remark – not seeking to get here, into what topics should or should not be permitted on any forum; but in my understanding it is not, and has not been, stated BFF policy to prohibit outright, any airing of notions of paranormal / supernatural aspects to Bigfoot.

To quote a section of BFF’s posting guidelines: “Bigfoot are flesh and blood animals, albeit very intelligent and stealthy ones. We do not believe Bigfoot are interdimensional, of another world, shape shifting, can disappear, are Republicans, Democrats, or otherwise. If you feel they are any of these things, you’re still welcome to participate, but don’t expect to find many in your camp.” Thus – by general consensus I think – ideas re BF as conceivably other than purely-flesh-and-blood-strictly-of-this-world MAY be propounded on BFF, but are not well-regarded by the great majority of those who frequent the forums; you can propound them, but if you do -- expect those notions to be fiercely lambasted in the overall discussion. Some quite recent exchanges on BFF, have confirmed that this deal still obtains.

In at least one post by him BFF, Paul1968UK himself has stated that in his own “take” on the entire business, he keeps a door slightly ajar to the contingency of paranormal / spectral aspects to the phenomenon. With that, vis-à-vis his words cited in the above post: attempting to make allowances -- things are said in the heat of the moment and under annoyance; and for sure, no person who has ever lived, has always been 100% consistent in every facet of their life.

Hi fleabeetle, I had never read your Welcome Post on JREF until now. But this post here sure did intrigue me. I see that you are a BFF member. I figured I ought to be able to figure out who if I poked through the "paranormal Bigfoot" threads. I think I hit pay dirt immediately.

You are "strick"?

That is an interesting thread you started (I'm already assuming it's you). You do see some people discarding or belittleing the paranormal notion. Some are nasty about it (esp. Kathy Strain's husband - RB). But still, the thread moves along and nobody died or gets killed.

I'm going to try to briefly characterize your position (as I see it), and then you tell me if this is accurate...

You think that if Bigfoot exists as any entity whatsoever, it exists as a paranormal entity.

Is that right?
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Old 31st October 2009, 03:29 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
Skinwalker: as I mentioned before in this thread, I live quite close to the ranch.

I will NOT trespass on private property, but what would you think about taking me to one of these places "around but not on" the Skinwalker ranch property? Then I could see for myself what you are looking at. I would be very interested in flaming balls & smoke wolves. I've been hiking, camping & backpacking solo since I was a teen, woods at night don't freak me out, so no problem there.

I'm not interested in paying for a tour, though, I can tour myself around the area. I would hope you'd be willing to take me to these places so you could show a skeptic these phenomena.

What do you think?
i dont ever charge for tours, that is the heroparanormals group NOT me. I'm just happy to take along anyone whose interested in the subject and not a liability. For me seeing these things in person rather than reading about them in a book is the ultimate rush... and yes many of the things described in the book are real and there is alot more to see that isnt in the book. Write me at my website and we'll setup a time in the spring.
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Old 31st October 2009, 05:44 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
Skinwalker: as I mentioned before in this thread, I live quite close to the ranch.

I will NOT trespass on private property, but what would you think about taking me to one of these places "around but not on" the Skinwalker ranch property? Then I could see for myself what you are looking at. I would be very interested in flaming balls & smoke wolves. I've been hiking, camping & backpacking solo since I was a teen, woods at night don't freak me out, so no problem there.

I'm not interested in paying for a tour, though, I can tour myself around the area. I would hope you'd be willing to take me to these places so you could show a skeptic these phenomena.

What do you think?
Make sure to take pictures of those sooper-sekrit camo-clad security, because according to Utah state law, Armed security must:
R156-63a-605. Operating Standards - Uniform Requirements.
(1) All unarmed and armed private security officers while on duty shall wear the
uniform of their contract security company employer unless assigned to work undercover.
(2) Each armed and unarmed private security officer wearing a soft uniform unless
assigned to an undercover status shall at a minimum display on the outermost garment of
the uniform the name of the contract security company under whom the armed and unarmed
private security officer is employed, and the word "Security", "Contract Security", or
"Security Officer".
(3) The name of the contract security company and the word "Security" shall be of a
size, style, shape, design and type which is clearly visible by a reasonable person under
normal conditions.
(4) Each armed and unarmed private security officer wearing a regular uniform shall
display on the outermost garment of the uniform in a style, shape, design and type which
is clearly visible by a reasonable person under normal conditions identification which
contains:
(a) the name or logo of the contract security company under whom the armed or
unarmed private security officer is employed; and
(b) the word "Security", "Contract Security", or "Security Officer".


And should they threaten to open fire or shoot to kill, be sure to notify the authorities, because:
76-2-407. Deadly force in defense of persons on real property.
(1) A person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury against another in his defense of persons on real property other than his habitation if:
(a) he is in lawful possession of the real property;
(b) he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's trespass onto the real property;
(c) the trespass is made or attempted by use of force or in a violent and tumultuous manner; and
(d) (i) the person reasonably believes that the trespass is attempted or made for the purpose of committing violence against any person on the real property and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent personal violence; or
(ii) the person reasonably believes that the trespass is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a forcible felony as defined in Section 76-2-402 that poses imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury to a person on the real property and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of that forcible felony.
(2) The person using deadly force in defense of persons on real property under Subsection (1) is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the trespass or attempted trespass is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or for the purpose of committing a forcible felony.

76-5-107. Terroristic threat -- Penalty.
(1) A person commits a terroristic threat if he threatens to commit any offense involving bodily injury, death, or substantial property damage, and:
(a) he threatens the use of a weapon of mass destruction, as defined in Section 76-10-401, or threatens by the use of a hoax weapon of mass destruction, as defined in Section 76-10-401; or
(b) he acts with intent to:
(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population or to influence or affect the conduct of a government or a unit of government;
(ii) cause action of any nature by an official or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies;
(iii) place a person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury, substantial bodily injury, or death; or
(iv) prevent or interrupt the occupation of a building or a portion of the building, a place to which the public has access, or a facility or vehicle of public transportation operated by a common carrier.
(2) (a) A violation of Subsection (1)(a) or (1)(b)(i) is a second degree felony.
(b) A violation of Subsection (1)(b)(iv) is a third degree felony.
(c) Any other violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
(3) It is not a defense under this section that the person did not attempt to or was incapable of carrying out the threat.
(4) A threat under this section may be express or implied.
(5) A person who commits an offense under this section is subject to punishment for that offense, in addition to any other offense committed, including the carrying out of the threatened act.
(6) In addition to any other penalty authorized by law, a court shall order any person convicted of any violation of this section to reimburse any federal, state, or local unit of government, or any private business, organization, individual, or entity for all expenses and losses incurred in responding to the violation, unless the court states on the record the reasons why the reimbursement would be inappropriate.

If it is as Skinwalker claims, these guys are in violation of state laws...
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Old 1st November 2009, 11:03 AM   #89
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Violations of the Laws of the State? Piffle! Those can be taken care by the local law enforcement agency.

It's the violations of the fundamental laws of nature that cause me concern.
After all, those infractions have to be taken care of by The Supreme Galactic Commission: Stupidity Branch - and those guys can be rough!
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Old 1st November 2009, 04:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Hi fleabeetle, I had never read your Welcome Post on JREF until now. But this post here sure did intrigue me. I see that you are a BFF member. I figured I ought to be able to figure out who if I poked through the "paranormal Bigfoot" threads. I think I hit pay dirt immediately.

You are "strick"?

That is an interesting thread you started (I'm already assuming it's you). You do see some people discarding or belittleing the paranormal notion. Some are nasty about it (esp. Kathy Strain's husband - RB). But still, the thread moves along and nobody died or gets killed.

I'm going to try to briefly characterize your position (as I see it), and then you tell me if this is accurate...

You think that if Bigfoot exists as any entity whatsoever, it exists as a paranormal entity.

Is that right?
I’m not Strick (though I’m in agreement with his OP, April 6th ’09, on the BFF thread “Is the ‘Paranormal Theory’ Coming in from the Cold?”) Call me bashful, but I’d prefer to keep quiet about my “handle” on BFF – where I spend much time, but post very seldom. A great deal of fascinating stuff on the site, and many grand people participating there (as well as some not-so-grand); but it seems to me, an “if your face fits” place, and apparently, mine doesn’t there, any too well – so I keep a very low profile.

Position which I’ve reached -- and which I couldn’t defend very well in the logic-chopping “jousting lists” (such doings, not my thing) – but FWIW.

It’s generally reckoned, I think, that there are three potential explanations for the Bigfoot phenomenon.

1) It’s a purely-flesh-and-blood, purely-of-this-world, creature of whatever kind – highly reclusive and elusive, highly intelligent and able, and thus so far unfound and unclassified by biological science.

2) It doesn’t exist – is basically a “social construct”, and all supposed encounters with it, are a matter of myth / hoaxing / lying / hallucination / misidentification.

3) People are, and have been since “way back”, now and again encountering this thing: but, too little in the way of hard evidence or traces, for (1) to be likely. But, just too many reports and accounts – some by multiple “witnesses” (and SOME physical evidence, e.g. tracks left) – for (2) to be likely (IMO, [2] is the least credible scenario of all). Thus, likeliest thing seems to me, that there is something (goodness alone knows what) paranormal / supernatural, going on.

Just vaguely theorising – for me, “any of the above” might be the true explanation – just have to feel that the least improbable is the “paranormal” one. In parallel with many rational-minded sceptics who rule out the paranormal / supernatural – I’d like most of all, for BF to turn out (against the odds) truly to be a long-undiscovered (until discovered) “whatever” this-worldly flesh-and-blood creature – more exciting and stimulating IMO, than the boring old supernatural / unfathomable, which has been inconclusively perplexing and plaguing mankind for as long as mankind has existed.
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Old 1st November 2009, 06:14 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by skinwalker View Post
i dont ever charge for tours, that is the heroparanormals group NOT me. I'm just happy to take along anyone whose interested in the subject and not a liability. For me seeing these things in person rather than reading about them in a book is the ultimate rush... and yes many of the things described in the book are real and there is alot more to see that isnt in the book. Write me at my website and we'll setup a time in the spring.
O.K. Is your website somewhere in this thread? I don't remember. If not, P.M. me with it if you don't want it on the net or post it here...I check in every few days so it might be a while.

I'll make a full report of whatever I see/experience on this forum after we go.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 02:54 AM   #92
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There's another ranch similar to Skinwalker getting a little play called Gilliland's ranch in Washington State. Apparently there are ufos, winged bigfoot-like creatures, etc to be found there, and, for a price, the owner will let you search his property all you want.

Last edited by xblade; 2nd November 2009 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 09:16 AM   #93
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by fleabeetle View Post
It’s generally reckoned, I think, that there are three potential explanations for the Bigfoot phenomenon.

4) It exists as both flesh&blood and paranormal. Two types existing on earth at the same time.


Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
O.K. Is your website somewhere in this thread?
It's in the OP. Skinwalker's website is Skinwalker Ranch.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 09:24 AM   #94
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I remember hearing about the skinwalker legend somewhat applying to the Yaqui Tribe as well. They called them Diabolero's though.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 09:43 AM   #95
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Is Bigelow's shoot-to-kill security policy in place to prevent someone from stealing a skinwalker?

Wolftrax says that you need a medicine man to get rid of a skinwalker.

Originally Posted by wolftrax on BFF
Skinwalkers are motivated by personal vendettas, hatred, and jealousy. Some encounters, like on the road, are accidental, but if it's at your house and concentrated on your home then it is a personal thing that you need the help of a medicine man.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 10:12 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
4) It exists as both flesh&blood and paranormal. Two types existing on earth at the same time.
That too -- there have been reported BF sightings in, for example, my own country, the UK -- crowded and not-heavily-forested islands which could absolutely no way support a breeding BF population -- those, if genuine, have got to be paranormal. I implicitly lumped (4) in with (3), not wanting to get things too complicated at that stage.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 10:29 AM   #97
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Quote:
those, if genuine, have got to be paranormal.
Signature material...
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Old 2nd November 2009, 10:43 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by fleabeetle View Post
Just vaguely theorising – for me, “any of the above” might be the true explanation – just have to feel that the least improbable is the “paranormal” one. In parallel with many rational-minded sceptics who rule out the paranormal / supernatural – I’d like most of all, for BF to turn out (against the odds) truly to be a long-undiscovered (until discovered) “whatever” this-worldly flesh-and-blood creature – more exciting and stimulating IMO, than the boring old supernatural / unfathomable, which has been inconclusively perplexing and plaguing mankind for as long as mankind has existed.
I find this fascinating. When I look at your three choices (acknowledging William Parcher's 4th as part of #3) I assign a very low probability to #1 and #3 due to a extreme paucity of verifiable evidence. With specific regard to #3 I also have never experienced anything remotely "paranormal" nor have I encountered verifiable accounts of others witnessing anything paranormal.

However, option #2 contains a list of things all of which I have directly experienced in my life and there are countless verifiable cases of others experiencing the same. Some on the list are so common as to be mundane. So, #2 gets a very high probability from me. It would take something really quite extraordinary to contradict this lifetime of experience.

Did you have this something extraordinary happen for you?
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Old 2nd November 2009, 11:44 AM   #99
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just had a long detailed conversation with a local who lives in Roosevelt (next to skinwalker). She told me her own personal theory and her father was an ex cop who used to manage the ranch during the cattle mutiliation days. She believes that unshielded powerlines neighboring the skinwalker property in conjection with high amounts of sillica in the ground of the basin, causes a ball lightening like effect. She believes the power company and Bigelow are both aware of this "problem" and that it presents a liability for those who visit the ranch. Furthermore she added that the military may have an interest in this natural phenomona due to its obvious military application for knocking out power to a enemy's position to frying someone alive. She thought the security was in place to keep the liability of a tresspasser getting fried away from Bigelow. There have been a three star general and two other important ranking officals to the property in the past year and the story goes they saw something that frightened them and caused them to run in opposite directions. When i relayed this story to my friend she said likely they generated some ball lightening and due to its current upredictable nature they scattered to avoid being hit by it.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 12:21 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
I find this fascinating. When I look at your three choices (acknowledging William Parcher's 4th as part of #3) I assign a very low probability to #1 and #3 due to a extreme paucity of verifiable evidence. With specific regard to #3 I also have never experienced anything remotely "paranormal" nor have I encountered verifiable accounts of others witnessing anything paranormal.

However, option #2 contains a list of things all of which I have directly experienced in my life and there are countless verifiable cases of others experiencing the same. Some on the list are so common as to be mundane. So, #2 gets a very high probability from me. It would take something really quite extraordinary to contradict this lifetime of experience.

Did you have this something extraordinary happen for you?
Extraordinary experiences of own – no, never. Just – in my perception – the sheer number of alleged encounters – and tracks found – would seem to me, to strain belief in all of it being just down to (as I wrote in earlier post) “myth / hoaxing / lying / hallucination / misidentification” (I should have added there, “wishful thinking”.) I feel that perhaps this one is not about verifiable evidence – which of course makes everything “up for grabs”…
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Old 2nd November 2009, 06:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by skinwalker View Post
just had a long detailed conversation with a local who lives in Roosevelt (next to skinwalker). She told me her own personal theory and her father was an ex cop who used to manage the ranch during the cattle mutiliation days. She believes that unshielded powerlines neighboring the skinwalker property in conjection with high amounts of sillica in the ground of the basin, causes a ball lightening like effect. She believes the power company and Bigelow are both aware of this "problem" and that it presents a liability for those who visit the ranch. Furthermore she added that the military may have an interest in this natural phenomona due to its obvious military application for knocking out power to a enemy's position to frying someone alive. She thought the security was in place to keep the liability of a tresspasser getting fried away from Bigelow. There have been a three star general and two other important ranking officals to the property in the past year and the story goes they saw something that frightened them and caused them to run in opposite directions. When i relayed this story to my friend she said likely they generated some ball lightening and due to its current upredictable nature they scattered to avoid being hit by it.
Stupid theories are just as stupid no matter if you father was a cop or not.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 08:04 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Stupid theories are just as stupid no matter if you father was a cop or not.
Well, there is certainly an element of plausibility. Ball lightening has been created in lab conditions with high voltage electricity and silica. I guess this could happen in an area with high silica soils struck by lightening, but I doubt high tension power lines wold be a factor. Unless they're so old that they are falling apart and arcing all over the place.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 08:12 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
Well, there is certainly an element of plausibility. Ball lightening has been created in lab conditions with high voltage electricity and silica. I guess this could happen in an area with high silica soils struck by lightening, but I doubt high tension power lines wold be a factor. Unless they're so old that they are falling apart and arcing all over the place.
Given the entirety of your own post - how in the heck do you get "certainly an element of plausibility" from the woman's theory hypthesis load of crap?
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Old 2nd November 2009, 08:13 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by skinwalker View Post
<snipped for brevity> She thought the security was in place to keep the liability of a tresspasser getting fried away from Bigelow. There have been a three star general and two other important ranking officals to the property in the past year and the story goes they saw something that frightened them and caused them to run in opposite directions. When i relayed this story to my friend she said likely they generated some ball lightening and due to its current upredictable nature they scattered to avoid being hit by it.
(Bolding mine). So...security is in place to keep trespassers from getting fried-yet. they invite a three star general into ball lightning central.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 08:21 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Given the entirety of your own post - how in the heck do you get "certainly an element of plausibility" from the woman's theory hypthesis load of crap?
Just what I said - the element of plausibility is the fact that ball lightening is known occur with high silica content and high voltage electricity. Whether there is high silica soil in the area or a legitimate source of high voltage electricity is unknown (to me), but as with any good CT there is some basis in fact.
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Old 2nd November 2009, 11:22 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
Just what I said - the element of plausibility is the fact that ball lightening is known occur with high silica content and high voltage electricity. Whether there is high silica soil in the area or a legitimate source of high voltage electricity is unknown (to me), but as with any good CT there is some basis in fact.
Oh - I see. Jump in with a couple of facts that have no bearing on the situation at the ranch and you are on your way.
Let me try...
There must be water on the ranch or no life could survive. We know that tsunamis are made of water - so it could have been a tsunami...
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Old 3rd November 2009, 05:47 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Oh - I see. Jump in with a couple of facts that have no bearing on the situation at the ranch and you are on your way.
Let me try...
There must be water on the ranch or no life could survive. We know that tsunamis are made of water - so it could have been a tsunami...
You're on the right track, but you need to come up with something at least somewhat plausible. Ball lightning in an area rich in silica is plausible as shown by recent lab experiments (turns out the nearby Wasatch mountains are, in fact, rich in silica). What you need is an ignition source - typically lightning striking the ground. This lady decided the power lines in the area would be enough... I think she doesn't realize just how powerful lightning strikes are compared to what's carried in high tension power lines.

I'm sure you can come up with something better than tsunami if you try. You might consider tossing in some magnetic fields, the reflective properties of water vapor, car headlights and a secret nearby air base.

Me, I'll stick with "there is nothing unusual gong on, not even ball lightning". My great-grand parents and their siblings homesteaded the area and my great grandfather consolidated the homesteads into his one large ranch several miles North of Skinwalker. My grandfather grew up there, as did my mother and uncle and several of their cousins. All of them spent most of their lives with the Ute indians on the reservation. None of them ever mentioned any weird indian legends or prohibitions on visiting some nearby areas. None of them mentioned any weird goings on involving strange lights, bullet-proof wolves, etc... This in a time of no TV, no radio, no internet to entertain and distract or keep folks inside on a nice evening.

But, there probably are lots of mushrooms and peyote in the area...
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Old 4th November 2009, 12:34 PM   #108
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Mak's ancestors weigh in...


Originally Posted by makaya325
my papa, before he passed away, i asked him if sasquatch was like a spirit or shaman. he responded "the big man is just an animal, it eats, it sleeps it poops etc."
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Old 4th November 2009, 10:33 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by fleabeetle View Post
It’s generally reckoned, I think, that there are three potential explanations for the Bigfoot phenomenon.

1) It’s a purely-flesh-and-blood, purely-of-this-world, creature of whatever kind – highly reclusive and elusive, highly intelligent and able, and thus so far unfound and unclassified by biological science.

2) It doesn’t exist – is basically a “social construct”, and all supposed encounters with it, are a matter of myth / hoaxing / lying / hallucination / misidentification.

3) People are, and have been since “way back”, now and again encountering this thing: but, too little in the way of hard evidence or traces, for (1) to be likely. But, just too many reports and accounts – some by multiple “witnesses” (and SOME physical evidence, e.g. tracks left) – for (2) to be likely (IMO, [2] is the least credible scenario of all). Thus, likeliest thing seems to me, that there is something (goodness alone knows what) paranormal / supernatural, going on.
Welcome to the forum, fleabeetle! You might be interested to know that there have been confirmed cases where numerous reports have been made about something that was proven not to have happened. I recommend reading up on the "Red Panda Incident" and the "Uncle Don cursing kids on the air" urban legend (and other cases where eyewitnesses were wrong) here.

As for tracks, here's something I whipped up in an older thread:

Despite what some people my claim, bear tracks can be mistaken for that of Bigfoot.

One thing that helped me "off the fence" regarding whether or not Bigfoot existed was this site, which hypothesized that overlaid animal tracks could be mistaken for the tracks of a bipedal, humanoid animal (aka Bigfoot). Although convincing by itself, I decided to look into whether or not this was actually possible. These links show tracks that have been confirmed as being overlaid bear tracks. Now imagine what would happen if those bears moved over one of their feet just a bit more. Instant "Bigfoot" track.

I was also lucky enough to find this trackway, which consists of bear prints overlaid enough to show how a quadrupedal animal’s tracks can seem like those of a bipedal animal, but not overlaid enough to give the impression of a Bigfoot trackway. This was enough to convince me that Dr. Bruce Marcot’s work was indeed correct. I then decided to do research more about bear feet and how they compared to alleged Bigfoot tracks. I found that in some case, even non-overlaid tracks greatly resemble Bigfoot tracks.

Here's a supposed Bigfoot cast from Dr. Meldrum's website. Now here is a picture of a cast of a black bear's hind paw (source).

Here's another picture from Dr. Meldrum's website and here's a picture of the feet of an unconscious bear. I'm not saying the above bear made that track, only that it seems likely that a bear made it.

I find the resemblence between this “Bigfoot track” and this Himalayan black bear track to be astounding.

I showed those pictures to other people to see what they thought. They saw the resemblance, although it was noted that the Himalayan bear track picture had some grass covering a toe and that it would’ve been much easier to see the resemblance if the bear picture was “flipped”. I did find some other, similar pictures while doing Google image searches for bear tracks and bear prints. Those seem to prove my suspicion that American species of bears can leave tracks similar to the Himalayan one.

I think I see signs of a partial track overlay in this picture and here we have a bear track that looks humanoid.

This could certainly be an explanation for Bigfoot tracks that were supposedly found in places so remote that the chances of finding them would be unlikely (although it's kinda odd to say that, seeing as how people actually find said tracks by going to those "remote" areas). Combined with hoaxes, misidentified human tracks, and people mistaking holes and such in the ground for "heel marks" or "partial footprints," I'd say that we have a nice little skeptical package that explains Bigfoot prints. To be valid as evidence, all Bigfoot tracks will need to demonstrate that they are not the result of the above options.

I hope you find this information as fascinating as I did when I first read it!
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Old 5th November 2009, 12:12 AM   #110
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So what you're really saying is there is no Bigfoot?

Excellent post AMM! "The reason all so-called Bigfoot prints look so ill-mal-un-formed is because they really are, by the very nature of how their makers create them." It's really that simple! And while my being convinced awhile ago such (mis-identification) was the case, you've spelled it out very well, and in the process (essentially) usurped (creamed?) MonsterQuest Meldrum's viability as 'an authority'. Gotta say wow to that. I've lamented (publicly) the man's 'future' for awhile now, but I think it's time he's officially eighty-sixed. At least IMHO and stuff.
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Old 5th November 2009, 03:55 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
Welcome to the forum, fleabeetle! You might be interested to know that there have been confirmed cases where numerous reports have been made about something that was proven not to have happened. I recommend reading up on the "Red Panda Incident" and the "Uncle Don cursing kids on the air" urban legend (and other cases where eyewitnesses were wrong) here.
Thanks AMM. I encountered and read the "Red Panda saga" some while ago. It is certainly illustrative of humans' strong propensity to recount and report -- for whatever reasons -- what is blatantly not so. Unless, in these events in Rotterdam, the supernatural took a hand (to be sure, on here I'll get chopped to pieces and eaten without salt, for that).

Quote:
As for tracks, here's something I whipped up in an older thread
It's owed to you to read in full, and ponder, your links concerning the tracks issue -- which I won't have time to do today; but aim to do so, and respond. I consider that it will take a great deal to convince me that absolutely everything about the phenomenon of Bigfoot, and its suspected "cousins" elsewhere on the planet, is a matter of -- to quote an associate of mine -- everyone concerned, without exception, being "either mischievous or mistaken". Agreed, very many are, and have been, one or the other; but I find it highly difficult to go the whole way on this one. Obviously, a lot of others' mileages vary.
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Old 5th November 2009, 09:02 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by fleabeetle View Post
I consider that it will take a great deal to convince me that absolutely everything about the phenomenon of Bigfoot, and its suspected "cousins" elsewhere on the planet, is a matter of -- to quote an associate of mine -- everyone concerned, without exception, being "either mischievous or mistaken".

There is no way in hell that this forum will be able to show you that the paranormal Bigfoot does not exist. You've lurked here and BFF long enough to know about the best that skepticism can come up with.

One thing we do have in common. We both would say that if BF exists as a F&B creature, it should have been biologically confirmed by now (body, body part, bones, etc). Because it has never at any time yielded any flesh or bone in any manner - it really isn't out there.

I think at this moment you are the only person posting on JREF who believes in the paranormal Bigfoot. We've had others but they got banned.
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Old 5th November 2009, 10:31 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post

I think at this moment you are the only person posting on JREF who believes in the paranormal Bigfoot. We've had others but they got banned.
Please note, they did not get banned for their belief, but for their inability to stick to the rules. Just clarifying.
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Old 5th November 2009, 10:43 AM   #114
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Of course. The banned ones (Beckjord + socks, and Historian) were nasty people who are quick to insult. Mod warnings didn't work at all. There is one that still exists but is inactive since March.

TEABERRYEAGLE

Quote:
I'm afraid I'm not a skeptic...they're out there and have been from time beginning.

I will tell you that they're not animal in the genaral sense and that hunter's shouldn't go for them. I'll prove this a little later.
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Old 5th November 2009, 04:53 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Of course. The banned ones (Beckjord + socks, and Historian) were nasty people who are quick to insult. Mod warnings didn't work at all. There is one that still exists but is inactive since March.

TEABERRYEAGLE
I miss Teaberry. His brand of crazy was really quite good. Alien Pigfoots with crossbows. How cool is that? I hope he's still around...
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Old 6th November 2009, 12:38 PM   #116
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Wow! Secret ranches with 3-star generals that run from Phenomena--how do we know there was a 3 star general? Who saw him run, and reported it to whom?

Contrary to what appears on TV and in most conspiracy-view threads, military security is much like civilian security, except they are more likely to have the ability and the grounds to arrest you. If you're not in an active combat theater--which no part of the US is at this time -- they are no more likely to put a round through you than the guy at the local shipping warehouse.

Living in an area where protestors cutting some fence wire and trespassing--on active military bases with nuclear weapons present--is not uncommon, I have seen and known people who were arrested for being where they didn't belong. They got plastic handcuffs; in some cases, they got tossed down and frisked for weapons; but they didn't get a gun in the back of their head, and no 'shoot to kill' orders were indicated.


It makes a nice story, but my BS-o-meter is about pegged. Pull the other one, that plays 'Jingle Bells." MK

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Old 6th November 2009, 09:06 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson
Excellent post AMM!
Thanks!

Quote:
And while my being convinced awhile ago such (mis-identification) was the case, you've spelled it out very well, and in the process (essentially) usurped (creamed?) MonsterQuest Meldrum's viability as 'an authority'. Gotta say wow to that. I've lamented (publicly) the man's 'future' for awhile now, but I think it's time he's officially eighty-sixed. At least IMHO and stuff.
Thanks for the kind words, but I don't deserve all the credit for that. Here are some of the many JREF threads in which Meldrum's work gets a logical beat-down:

Meldrum's new paper / North American Ape Foot - I should clarify that my comments regarding "Wallacefeet" were made to say that Patty's feet could be fakes, not that Wallace was involved in the PGF in any way.

Meldrum gets bigfoot DNA? - Let's not forget the sequels: MonsterQuest Bigfoot 2 and Rocks thrown at 'fly-in only' remote cabin, prove Bigfoot?

Dr. Jeffrey Meldrum - America's "Bigfoot Professor"

Bigfoot Cast Collection Appears On Website

Bigfoot/Sasquatch in Scientific Journals

I'm sure you can find more by searching through all the threads tagged with "Bigfoot."

I should note that several of my comments in those threads are repostings of details noted by other posters in the past. That said, I think I'm missing the threads where someone pointed out how Meldrum backtracked on how impressive he thought the Skookum cast was and the one where evidence was produced showing how Dr. Meldrum;s religious beliefs colored one of his papers (or something like that, it's been ages since I've read it).

I'm also quite fond of tube's demolishing of Meldrum's claim that only fake feet with spring or cable-loaded toes could fake toe movement. Although if I remember correctly, Dr. Meldrum had actually seen tube's experiments involving standard fake feet creating such "movements" before making that statement!

Originally Posted by fleabeetle
Thanks AMM. I encountered and read the "Red Panda saga" some while ago. It is certainly illustrative of humans' strong propensity to recount and report -- for whatever reasons -- what is blatantly not so. Unless, in these events in Rotterdam, the supernatural took a hand (to be sure, on here I'll get chopped to pieces and eaten without salt, for that).
You're welcome. I think you should read the other examples in that link, as I doubt anyone would argue for the supernatural being involved in the Uncle Don incident, the Loch Ness fence post experiments, etc.

Quote:
It's owed to you to read in full, and ponder, your links concerning the tracks issue -- which I won't have time to do today; but aim to do so, and respond.
I'm glad to hear that and look forward to reading what you have to say.

Quote:
I consider that it will take a great deal to convince me that absolutely everything about the phenomenon of Bigfoot, and its suspected "cousins" elsewhere on the planet, is a matter of -- to quote an associate of mine -- everyone concerned, without exception, being "either mischievous or mistaken". Agreed, very many are, and have been, one or the other; but I find it highly difficult to go the whole way on this one. Obviously, a lot of others' mileages vary.
I would certainly hope those numerous examples of eyewitnesses being wrong would at least point you in the non-paranormal/no Bigfoot direction. What sorts of things would convince you?
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Old 7th November 2009, 06:15 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Ravenwood View Post
The Cynic in me wants to think that it came to light the second it was pointed out that the pic was of a sky cop...BTW, does anyone know if the USAF gone to the new digital camo pattern like the Army & Marines, or are they still using the old pattern BDUs?

The USAF is transitioning to the new Airman's Battle Uniform, which has a slightly pixellated tiger stripe camo pattern. It has been issued to new enlistees for a couple of years, and to the Class of 2012 at the Air Force Academy last year. It is available for purchase by any Air Force member and will become compulsory in 2011. It is mostly gray green with some slate blue tones. It has been seen on TV shows like Stargate Universe. ABU clothing is also readily available on eBay. Some Airmen in Afghanistan and Iraq used Army Combat Uniforms in the digital Universal Camoflauge Pattern.

Of course, anyone can buy BDUs in any camo pattern and wear them on private property. It doesn't mean a thing in terms of prior military service, if any.
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Old 11th November 2009, 09:04 PM   #119
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It turns out the "hominids" thread has some of the Meldrum stuff I wasn't able to find when I made my last post.
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Old 12th November 2009, 06:23 AM   #120
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In general -- sorry about no response for so long -- "things intervened".

Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post

You're welcome. I think you should read the other examples in that link, as I doubt anyone would argue for the supernatural being involved in the Uncle Don incident, the Loch Ness fence post experiments, etc.
Oh my word ! Keeping up with this particular sector of JREF, seems a potentially full-time job; at least, to someone "non-bionic", such as me. Time for some kind of reply -- have read the "Uncle Don" material; no other so far. Concur -- this one has to be just plain spontaneous "people coming to believe and recount, something that never was"; nothing supernatuiral seen here. I had -- probably like at least half the people on the planet -- heard in the past, a variant of the tale. (I was largely, and likely ill-advisedly, jesting about the red panda "job".)

(Re AMM's material on tracks )

Quote:
I'm glad to hear that and look forward to reading what you have to say.
Most interesting presentation (a few of the links given proved unavailable, at least to me).

Overall; plenty to persuade me (a thing which I already thought likely the case, to some extent) that many supposed Bigfoot tracks are misidentifications of other creatures’ tracks – often overlaid, occasionally not even needing overlaying – most often, those of bears. Have long made the “take”, that “footprintology” is potentially material for years of demanding study (Bruce Marcot’s material, linked-to, goes impressively deep, and bears that feeling out). Some BF proponents are, from what I have (skimming-wise, I admit) read on Net sites, learned about this aspect of the matter – however sound or unsound their premises / conclusions might be – and could, it would seem, eloquently argue their corner, re specific track examples. Would take me more time / effort than, frankly, I could muster, to painstakingly evaluate “pro” and “anti” claims re footprint details. (I’m probably a dabbler who should refrain from attempting input to the JREF Bigfoot threads – get some indication on this thread, that there are those here, who would agree with that.)

The material here, falls short of selling me on the certainty or near-certainty, of ALL “Bigfoot” tracks encountered, being the result of misidentification. (Marcot, I notice, scrupulously emphasises that he is not trying to make a case, that his studies prove that undiscovered bipedal primates do not exist; just that his studies would seem a likely explanation for very many of the tracks.)

If the only evidence for BF’s existence given by proponents, were the tracks (i.e. no sighting reports), I’d be much inclined to be convinced that it was, invariably, bears or other creatures (including hoaxers); but of course, that is getting into plain silly realms – whilst people can be very strange, it’s reasonable to opine that there would not be many passionate Bigfoot believers, if the whole idea rested solely on the footprints.


Quote:
I would certainly hope those numerous examples of eyewitnesses being wrong would at least point you in the non-paranormal/no Bigfoot direction. What sorts of things would convince you?
To be frank, probably nothing. In my perception, a great deal of the time people opine what they want to opine,and -- if same, is their bent -- rope in logical argument after the event, to support their already-chosen view. (If one's clever enough at logic-chopping, one can make a cogent case for or against anything.) Folk's being "converted" via such logical argument, is fairly rare. Once again -- feeling this way, I am, likely, on JREF under false pretences.
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