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Tags big cats , cougars , cryptozoology

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Old 28th July 2011, 01:10 PM   #201
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Note: my wild speculation was not objective. I was trying to route the cat through the old family farm in the Mohawk Valley. (It's as good a route as any.)
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Old 29th July 2011, 03:06 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
There WAS a cougar and it had been on a 1,500 mile meander across half the country for several years now. Now it may have been simply an anomaly and will never happen again, but can we be certain of that? And, fine, let's say it doesn't happen again, what about Western Cougars moving, say, only 500 or 750 miles east.
Well, we might have a situation where W.Cougars repopulate the east due to movement. But again, that would merely be an eastern population of W.Cougar.
Quote:
Fine then. I'll shut up about it. I agree that Eastern Cougars are extinct. I always have. My posts were an attempt to engage in a discussion about the implications of migrating cougars and their impact on areas with large human populations.

Perhaps I should start a new thread about that.
Perhaps I missed your point then, but when you responded to drewbot with

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbot
Not an eastern cougar.
You guys seem to be missing my point. This is what I mean by folks getting caught up in semantics.

Does it really matter if it was an Eastern or Western Cougar?
Drewbot was pointing out that it was not and Eastern Cougar, and I got the impression that you thought that this was merely semantics rather than the point that drewbot was discussing taxonomy.
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Old 29th July 2011, 05:49 AM   #203
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What he might be getting at, and what is pointed out in the recent reccomendation to de-list the Eastern Cougar, is that the two species are not much different, in fact I have read that the genetic differences between the Eastern and Western subspecies is not significant enough to warrant sub-species designation.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Until the late 1980s, as many as 32 subspecies were recorded; however, a recent genetic study of mitochondrial DNA[17] found that many of these are too similar to be recognized as distinct at a molecular level. Following the research, the canonical Mammal Species of the World (3rd edition) recognizes six subspecies, five of which are solely found in Latin America:[1]
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Old 29th July 2011, 07:17 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
What he might be getting at, and what is pointed out in the recent reccomendation to de-list the Eastern Cougar, is that the two species are not much different, in fact I have read that the genetic differences between the Eastern and Western subspecies is not significant enough to warrant sub-species designation.
Ah, a different argument altogether and one which I'd be inclined to agree with him on (since I have no dog (or cat) in this fight).
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Old 29th July 2011, 07:39 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Ah, a different argument altogether and one which I'd be inclined to agree with him on (since I have no dog (or cat) in this fight).
But that does not appear to be the argument that Bigfooter and mikeyx are making.
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Old 29th July 2011, 07:49 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by mikeyx
I for one, am not advocating eastern cougars, its more like cougars are in the east, they are out there. They may have simply come east, but they are here...
Originally Posted by Bigfooter
The bottom line is that we now have proof that big cats exist in the Eastern United States outside of Florida.

Genetics is besides their point/argument. They are both saying that wild cougars are living in Eastern States.

The problem is that there is no functional evidence showing that this is true.
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Old 29th July 2011, 08:21 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But that does not appear to be the argument that Bigfooter and mikeyx are making.
No it does not appear to be the argument they are making. I was giving Bigfooter the chance to clarify his response that Ehocking quoted above.

In fact, Mikeyx thinks there are breeding populations of the creatures in the East, which is preposterous, given the lack of evidence.

There is a huge difference between one cat, and a viable population of the creatures.
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Old 29th July 2011, 08:35 AM   #208
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Bigfooter actually contradicted himself and I showed it in post #181...

Originally Posted by Bigfooter
The bottom line is that we now have proof that big cats exist in the Eastern United States outside of Florida.
Originally Posted by Bigfooter
I'm not proposing any others

Cougars exist in the East and we have proof.
I'm not saying any cougars exist in the East.

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Old 29th July 2011, 10:50 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Well, we might have a situation where W.Cougars repopulate the east due to movement. But again, that would merely be an eastern population of W.Cougar.Perhaps I missed your point then, but when you responded to drewbot with

Drewbot was pointing out that it was not and Eastern Cougar, and I got the impression that you thought that this was merely semantics rather than the point that drewbot was discussing taxonomy.
It is semantics and the lengths that Drew will go to to not be wrong, he was obsessed with the idea of escaped pets and mentioned the Western factor once to cya, but.. the argument was are they in the east, YES, yes they are.

Drew, wrong, done.
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Old 29th July 2011, 10:57 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But that does not appear to be the argument that Bigfooter and mikeyx are making.
The Eastern Cougar Network keeps track of things like this and again the devil is in the details. The argument that they are not here in the east is ********, they are here, and if they can get to CT from SD, there clearly is nothing keeping them out. I dont recall ever saying it was a breeding population, just that imperically they are here. How they came to be here who know.

I know of a situation in the Northern Connecticut corner where off the record, wolf presence has been proven, one was shot, they have the body (DEP) and the id was made. It doesnt mean it was from CT just that it's here now. They in fact suspected migration.

The issue I take with Drew's know it all attitude is he and others have been quick to jump to an interbreeding argument in that case, whereas with cougars, its pets getting out case closed. ********.

The migratory angle is much more feasible but opens up more possibilities as well, and frankly showcases Drew's short sightedness in this matter. Yes, he passingly allowed for migratory cougars, but he has laways emphasized the escaped pet angle and that turns out not to be the case. It shows how quickly some are to assume and then dodge when the assumption comes up short.
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Old 29th July 2011, 10:58 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post


Cougars exist in the East and we have proof.
I'm not saying any cougars exist in the East.

Cougars do exist in the east, its the matter of how they get here. They're not all pets. Drew was wrong.
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Old 29th July 2011, 11:12 AM   #212
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Cougars are not in the east.

A couple of cougars that got to the east somehow, does not allow such a broad statement, imo.

It is literally true, in that wild cougars have been found, but you can't really say much more than that.
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:04 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Cougars are not in the east.

A couple of cougars that got to the east somehow, does not allow such a broad statement, imo.

It is literally true, in that wild cougars have been found, but you can't really say much more than that.
This is getting stupid, half full vs half empty. They are here, not in huge breeding numbers but that wasn't my argument, they are in fact here. The failed misdirect is they some have claimed the arguemnt is they are breeding here, not what I said. Regardless of how, watch the news, they ARE here. You guys are just dickering as to the how, and still claiming to be right. You're not.
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:04 PM   #214
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It's not like there is a gaggle of young male cougars in the Black Hills ready to bolt to New England as soon as they can break away from their mothers. The animal killed in CT demonstrated a truly extraordinary dispersal distance. To assume that such dispersal events are routine would be like (only way more so) observing Blake Griffin's alley-oop over the Kia and assuming that we humans do that sort of thing all the time.

Outside of Peninsular Florida, the vast majority of cougars reported over the last several decades have been - and continue to be - housecats, bobcats, dogs, etc. For the small number of cases in which some physical evidence has been obtained that there actually was a cougar, it is still a more parsimonious explanation that a privately-owned cat escaped or was released than that a wild cat dispersed to the eastern U.S. all the way from the Black Hills or elsewhere along the eastern front of its range.

But resident, home-grown, cougars of the "eastern" subspecies occupying their former range? No way. They're long gone.
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:07 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
Cougars do exist in the east, its the matter of how they get here. They're not all pets. Drew was wrong.
Any cougar found in the East is an escaped pet, except for the outlier samples of western male cougars which have trekked into the area.

I even posted a study which showed DNA samples, and that most of them were S. American origin. What are you trying to show here?
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:39 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
This is getting stupid, half full vs half empty. They are here, not in huge breeding numbers but that wasn't my argument, they are in fact here. The failed misdirect is they some have claimed the arguemnt is they are breeding here, not what I said. Regardless of how, watch the news, they ARE here. You guys are just dickering as to the how, and still claiming to be right. You're not.
It's all empty. A few are here, by odd chance. That's it.

Attempting to turn that into "Cougars are inhabiting the Eastern US" is folly.
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:45 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It's all empty. A few are here, by odd chance. That's it.

Attempting to turn that into "Cougars are inhabiting the Eastern US" is folly.

Where is the confirmatory evidence that "a few are here"?
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:51 PM   #218
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We know that there are escaped pets, there are DNA samples from those, that came back as being from S. America. We know there is the one that trekked from S. Dakota.

Those are the few.
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:59 PM   #219
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There have been escaped pets living in the East, or there are some presently living in the East?
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Old 29th July 2011, 01:41 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There have been escaped pets living in the East, or there are some presently living in the East?
Well, the individual killed in CT was living in "the East" (as in well east of the current distribution of cougars in the U.S., save Florida) from at least December 2009 to June 2011. That's at least a year and a half during which the animal was traveling, hunting, pooping, leaving prints, etc. That individual was clearly "living in the East" during this time, and could have been observed multiple times by multiple individuals anywhere from South Dakota to Connecticut.

Now that he's dead, could there still be others in the East? Sure, why not? I'm sure Jenks has multiple individuals from his database whose whereabouts are currently listed under "unknown."
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Old 29th July 2011, 02:04 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Where is the confirmatory evidence that "a few are here"?
I was giving the benefit of the doubt. Fat lot of good it did me...
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Old 29th July 2011, 02:07 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Any cougar found in the East is an escaped pet, except for the outlier samples of western male cougars which have trekked into the area.

I even posted a study which showed DNA samples, and that most of them were S. American origin. What are you trying to show here?
nope, you assume.
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Old 29th July 2011, 02:09 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Well, the individual killed in CT was living in "the East" (as in well east of the current distribution of cougars in the U.S., save Florida) from at least December 2009 to June 2011. That's at least a year and a half during which the animal was traveling, hunting, pooping, leaving prints, etc. That individual was clearly "living in the East" during this time, and could have been observed multiple times by multiple individuals anywhere from South Dakota to Connecticut.

Now that he's dead, could there still be others in the East? Sure, why not? I'm sure Jenks has multiple individuals from his database whose whereabouts are currently listed under "unknown."
Thats the point, by Drews BS logic that was the only one. The second pile of poo was a cougar so there are no other cougars in CT or the east. What crap...

Could there be more, of curse? It is stupid to think EVERY possible one is someone's pet kitty gone stray, doubtful and dismissive if not outright stupid.

Last edited by mikeyx; 29th July 2011 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 29th July 2011, 02:12 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Well, the individual killed in CT was living in "the East" (as in well east of the current distribution of cougars in the U.S., save Florida) from at least December 2009 to June 2011. That's at least a year and a half during which the animal was traveling, hunting, pooping, leaving prints, etc. That individual was clearly "living in the East" during this time, and could have been observed multiple times by multiple individuals anywhere from South Dakota to Connecticut.

Now that he's dead, could there still be others in the East? Sure, why not? I'm sure Jenks has multiple individuals from his database whose whereabouts are currently listed under "unknown."

This individual was conclusively photographed and scat was found (yielding DNA). Imagine that he wasn't killed. We would be able to confirm his presence and origin status just from the photo and scat. Now where is that kind of evidence for any other individuals? We don't have it.

It's not about "why not?" It's about "are there". Mikey didn't say they could be there... he said they are there.
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Old 29th July 2011, 03:00 PM   #225
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Is there a cougar roaming somewhere well east of its current range in the Lower 48 outside of Florida? I don't know.

Could there be? Yes.

If there was, what would be its likely origin?
*South American stock, released or escaped from captivity - most likely.
*Western stock, dispersed from eastern edge of range - far less likely.
*Native eastern stock that never quite went extinct in the region - unlikely to the point of not possible.
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Old 29th July 2011, 03:24 PM   #226
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Is it just a coincidence that the two Bigfoot believers in this thread are also the two "cougars in the East believers" in this thread?

Dear Mr. Government Wildlife Official, Scientists and Skeptics... you don't know what is out there in the woods.
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Old 29th July 2011, 07:11 PM   #227
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The second poo and footprint was a dog, despite the witness' claim of cougar. The story was that this cougar had been seen in another location, or there were two cougars. It turns out not to be the case.
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Old 30th July 2011, 04:24 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
It is semantics and the lengths that Drew will go to to not be wrong, he was obsessed with the idea of escaped pets and mentioned the Western factor once to cya, but.. the argument was are they in the east, YES, yes they are.

Drew, wrong, done.
It is not semantics. The discussion is whether the subspecies, Eastern Cougar, is indeed extant.

Finding a few wandering individuals of the OTHER subspecies, Western Couger, in the eastern states does NOT indicate that the Eastern Cougar is still extant.

Another example.

A juvenile Emperor Penguin has been found in New Zealand. The first sighting of one in 44 years.

This does NOT mean that Emperor Penguins are extant in New Zealand.
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Old 30th July 2011, 12:49 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This individual was conclusively photographed and scat was found (yielding DNA). Imagine that he wasn't killed. We would be able to confirm his presence and origin status just from the photo and scat. Now where is that kind of evidence for any other individuals? We don't have it.

It's not about "why not?" It's about "are there". Mikey didn't say they could be there... he said they are there.
I didnt say HOW they got here just that they are, the body proves it genius.
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Old 30th July 2011, 12:51 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The second poo and footprint was a dog, despite the witness' claim of cougar. The story was that this cougar had been seen in another location, or there were two cougars. It turns out not to be the case.
from which point you jumped to there are no others, blind, dismissing assumption and you know it
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Old 30th July 2011, 12:54 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
We know that there are escaped pets, there are DNA samples from those, that came back as being from S. America. We know there is the one that trekked from S. Dakota.

Those are the few.
but you're claiming its ALL of them you are wrong
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Old 30th July 2011, 01:50 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
but you're claiming its ALL of them you are wrong
ALL of what? How many is ALL?

ALL sounds like a lot.

How about ONE?
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Old 30th July 2011, 01:52 PM   #233
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One good point about the "eastern" cougar is: it may have been erroneously classified as a separate subspecies in the first place. There are occasionally cougars found wandering around in the east, and perhaps that is how they came to be there to begin with. Of course with time and human populations/hunters invading their habitat there are likely none left except these drifters or occasionally escaped pets.

Can anyone state the specific things that distinguish the eastern cougar as a subspecies other than its range?
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Old 1st August 2011, 07:30 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by River View Post
One good point about the "eastern" cougar is: it may have been erroneously classified as a separate subspecies in the first place. There are occasionally cougars found wandering around in the east, and perhaps that is how they came to be there to begin with. Of course with time and human populations/hunters invading their habitat there are likely none left except these drifters or occasionally escaped pets.

Can anyone state the specific things that distinguish the eastern cougar as a subspecies other than its range?
All north american cougars disappeared at one point. Then wanderers from S. America reestablished cougars in N. America. All N. American cougars came from this S. American flow.
Originally Posted by From Wiki
Culver et al. suggest that the original North American population of Puma concolor was extirpated during the Pleistocene extinctions some 10,000 years ago, when other large mammals such as Smilodon also disappeared. North America was then repopulated by a group of South American cougars.
There is not enough DNA difference to distinguish the cougars. I believe that skull measurements were used to originally designate the difference.
Paragraph 1, page 6
http://www.easterncougar.org/pdfs/ta...ar-habitat.pdf
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Old 1st August 2011, 09:23 AM   #235
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Authorities in Connecticut had investigated over 100 cougar sightings that occured in winter when there was snow. This allowed them to observe the tracks and possibly confirm the sightings. Not a single one of them was attributed to a cougar. This is factual data on the reliability of eyewitnesses for cougars.

The breeding population of cougars in the "Badlands" (Dakotas) is relatively new. These animals originally dispersed from Wyoming in the 1970's and settled mainly in a smallish area of South Dakota. Distance dispersals (males) from this population began to be documented in the 1990's. Any claims of Eastern cougars being Western wanderers before this would have had to have been coming all the way from Wyoming.
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Old 1st August 2011, 09:53 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Well, we might have a situation where W.Cougars repopulate the east due to movement. But again, that would merely be an eastern population of W.Cougar.Perhaps I missed your point then, but when you responded to drewbot with

Drewbot was pointing out that it was not and Eastern Cougar, and I got the impression that you thought that this was merely semantics rather than the point that drewbot was discussing taxonomy.
I was actually more interested in the implications of big assed cats running through the tony suburbs of the east!
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Old 3rd August 2011, 12:36 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
I was actually more interested in the implications of big assed cats running through the tony suburbs of the east!
It would be about the same as the implications of black bears running through the suburbs of the east. Unless I missed something perhaps. Do Florida, California, SD, etc have problems with cougars attacking folks at will in grocery store parking lots?
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Old 3rd August 2011, 08:05 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by xblade View Post
It would be about the same as the implications of black bears running through the suburbs of the east. Unless I missed something perhaps. Do Florida, California, SD, etc have problems with cougars attacking folks at will in grocery store parking lots?
Clearly my previous attempt at humor fell flat with some.

Both black bear and cougar attacks are extrememly rare obviously, but clearly they do happen and seem to be happening more frequently as populations expand.

While I can't attest to the validity of the entire list, here's what I found with just a quick Google:

http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm

And AGAIN, I'm not arguing the existance of the Eastern Cougar. As someone who spends a great deal of time outdoors, I'm simply interested in the implications of increasing populations of big cats coming into contact with humans in areas where humans aren't expecting to find them.
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Old 3rd August 2011, 08:29 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
And AGAIN, I'm not arguing the existance of the Eastern Cougar.
So do you now want to drop your earlier argument?

Originally Posted by Bigfooter
The bottom line is that we now have proof that big cats exist in the Eastern United States outside of Florida.
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Old 3rd August 2011, 08:31 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by xblade View Post
Do Florida, California, SD, etc have problems with cougars attacking folks at will in grocery store parking lots?
No it's mostly at clubs or bars, at night, after a few drinks.
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