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Old 19th June 2018, 09:10 AM   #1801
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
A blurry image at 4k will still be blurry. I think Roger intentionally made it blurry, so the suit wouldn't be too obvious.
The film appears to be in focus in spite of being widely referred to as blurry or out-of-focus. The "benefit" of the hoax is that the subject is very far away, not that the lens wasn't focused.
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Old 19th June 2018, 09:44 AM   #1802
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The film appears to be in focus in spite of being widely referred to as blurry or out-of-focus. The "benefit" of the hoax is that the subject is very far away, not that the lens wasn't focused.
And there is motion blur...

I'll need to see the "camera original" roll of film to verify.

Which I think no one has ever seen.

When I think of the parts of the PGF prior to Patty's entrance, I don't think of good quality, in focus film suitable for trying to get more detail...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 19th June 2018, 10:52 AM   #1803
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Yeah, converting the PGF to 4K is even more laughable. It really is a cult of gullibility.
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Old 19th June 2018, 11:26 AM   #1804
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The resolution of the 16mm celluloid probably exceeds 4K, and greater detail might be revealed by scanning it at that resolution but my original question remains. How does he expect people to view what he creates at 4K?

At the minimum it requires a 4K monitor or television. So then what is the source format - delivered to you on a 4K disc to be played in a 4K disc player?
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Old 19th June 2018, 11:47 AM   #1805
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The resolution of the 16mm celluloid probably exceeds 4K, and greater detail might be revealed by scanning it at that resolution
I'm skeptical that you'd get anything better than sharper clumps of silver halide. I think we've seen all the legit detail we're going to from the PGF, such as it is. More lies and Photoshop are certainly possible, though.
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Old 19th June 2018, 12:07 PM   #1806
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Yeah, converting the PGF to 4K is even more laughable. It really is a cult of gullibility.
Once I was trying to think of things to do with my wife (probably not actually wife at the time but that's irrelevant I guess) and I saw that they were showing Beauty and the Beast at the IMAX. Well I knew she liked that movie and so we got tickets and went in and...

Well it turns out when you take a hand drawn cartoon and blow it up to IMAX size you just get a lot of big ugly lines. There's no detail to enhance, so everything actually ends up getting worse. It was a total waste of money. But technically I got what I paid for - an IMAX showing of the Beauty and the Beast cartoon.

Likewise, you can show anything you want in 4K if you really feel like it. It's not technically false advertising if you say it right. But that doesn't mean it's worth anything.
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Old 19th June 2018, 02:08 PM   #1807
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
There's no detail to enhance, so everything actually ends up getting worse.
Yes, this is what happens when you push the limits of the medium.
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Old 19th June 2018, 02:55 PM   #1808
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Yes, this is what happens when you push the limits of the medium.
I won't disagree with the notion of pushing mediums to their limits, but 16mm Kodachrome II was quite fine for a medium. The Kodak lens that was presumably used was also excellent.
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Old 19th June 2018, 04:14 PM   #1809
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I won't disagree with the notion of pushing mediums to their limits, but 16mm Kodachrome II was quite fine for a medium. The Kodak lens that was presumably used was also excellent.
I'm more experienced with 35mm Kodachrome in still photography (and even more experienced with B&W up to 4x5in), but we can probably agree that Munns as usual is trying to put lipstick on a pig in order to generate interest/revenue. Anything he says is stupid guff IMO.
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Old 19th June 2018, 06:02 PM   #1810
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
but we can probably agree that Munns as usual is trying to put lipstick on a pig in order to generate interest/revenue. Anything he says is stupid guff IMO.
He is an exceedingly strange man. I don't know of any Bigfoot promoters who are not exceedingly strange. There are millions of people who are not like that but I don't know of any who promote the existence of Bigfoot. This is not simply because they believe in Bigfoot, but more importantly, their rationality and reasoning towards the natural world is exceedingly strange.
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Old 20th June 2018, 08:09 AM   #1811
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I won't disagree with the notion of pushing mediums to their limits, but 16mm Kodachrome II was quite fine for a medium. The Kodak lens that was presumably used was also excellent.
When I see Kodachrome stills and movies from back in the day, the images almost always look spectacular.

I have never seen any version of the PGF, or still, that looks above "meh" on my image scale.

I haven't seen a version of the PGF that looks like it was filmed on good film, through a good lens, on a nice day.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 20th June 2018, 02:52 PM   #1812
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
I knew I wasn't dreaming all that up. There's definitely some confusion. As far as I've known going way back, there was the film in the camera (the original) from which Patterson initially made ONLY FOUR 'master' copies. These were the ones to be used to make any and all future copies. And of those initial four, Patterson had one, Dahinden had one, Green had one and Beckjord had one. Is that incorrect? Anyone?

And if in fact the frames or plates or whatever it is he's "comparing" aren't taken from only those four first gen copies or the original itself, what's the point? Almost comically, Munns has totally overlooked the notion that the PGF not being 4K is one of the reasons for its longevity. A supposed "clearer picture" would likely only serve to confirm to the fence sitters what's already well known to everyone else.
Bill didn’t claim to have first gen copies. As far as I know, not only is the camera original missing but so are ALL the first gen copies. The weirdo Beckjord supposedly had a first gen copy but he died and the copy he had wasn’t first gen. It went to the Willow Creek Museum.

This “stacking process” has another serious problem which is the misalignment of pixels. Bill did not scan the frames. He photographed them digitally using a Canon Rebel. So he has four digital images of each frame each consisting of rows of pixels. The problem is that he cannot register the pixels to the same exact place on the frames. Or more correctly he cannot register the image to the same point on the starting pixel.
In his book Bill used a similar idea to compare different frames in hopes of showing motion. It wasn’t valid for that use and it isn’t valid for this use either.

This is a shiny object/gimmick, as several have pointed out. Something new to sell to the producers. No evidence whatsoever that it shows anything more accurately than the best copy, and it is probably worse. The rubes will look at it and see whatever they want to see.
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Old 21st June 2018, 09:31 AM   #1813
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Shiny object indeed. At this point Bill could shave his beard, glue it to his arse and receive Cryptozoologist of the Year again. I’m not being sarcastic; the rubes are that thirsty.
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Old 25th June 2018, 01:14 AM   #1814
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Originally Posted by Squatchy McSquatch View Post
Shiny object indeed. At this point Bill could shave his beard, glue it to his arse and receive Cryptozoologist of the Year again. I’m not being sarcastic; the rubes are that thirsty.
True.
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Old 25th June 2018, 05:38 AM   #1815
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The show KILLING BIGFOOT is hilarious.

It features the GCBRO
http://gcbro.com/

They go to these places where the witnesses are skerred, and then pretend to find evidence that BF is around, and then set up a night hunt, where inevitably, they have to quit early because either: they have incompetence in their group, or someone gets scared and they call it off.

It reminds me of the NAWAC except it's on TV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJsm3X1zF5s
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Old 25th June 2018, 01:18 PM   #1816
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
It features the GCBRO
http://gcbro.com/
Oh my - that website design!
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Old 25th June 2018, 02:18 PM   #1817
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GCBRO the drama llamas of the Bigfooty world!
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Old 26th June 2018, 01:24 PM   #1818
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It takes a special kind of stupid to want to go on TV and showcase that stupid each and every episode. Even the freaks (like) on Swamp People catch real 'gators.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:26 PM   #1819
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Just saw a trailer for a animated movie called "Smallfoot"It's about a yeti who sees a human (a "smallfoot") and none of the other Yeti's believe him since everyboy knows Humans are mythical creatures......looks funny.
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Old 27th June 2018, 05:08 PM   #1820
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just saw a trailer for a animated movie called "Smallfoot"It's about a yeti who sees a human (a "smallfoot") and none of the other Yeti's believe him since everyboy knows Humans are mythical creatures......looks funny.
Thanks for that - Magrat and I just watched the trailer - It look really great!

I can see our family really wanting to see that! Especially as Danny DeVito is one of the voice actors!
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Old 5th July 2018, 05:30 AM   #1821
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The town of Whitehall, NY has just declared Bigfoot to be their "official animal".

They do a lot of Bigfoot-related tourism promotion. A town law declares Bigfoot to be an endangered species. They have four Bigfoot statues and an annual Bigfoot Half-Marathon and Sasquatch Festival. The last Saturday of September has been declared "Sasquatch Appreciation Day" and this year's Sasquatch Festival will feature screenings of "The Beast of Whitehall" and "Harry and the Hendersons".
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Old 5th July 2018, 07:09 PM   #1822
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The town of Whitehall, NY has just declared Bigfoot to be their "official animal".

They do a lot of Bigfoot-related tourism promotion. A town law declares Bigfoot to be an endangered species. They have four Bigfoot statues and an annual Bigfoot Half-Marathon and Sasquatch Festival. The last Saturday of September has been declared "Sasquatch Appreciation Day" and this year's Sasquatch Festival will feature screenings of "The Beast of Whitehall" and "Harry and the Hendersons".
Pure insanity. Wasn't there a guy on the old JREF who was from there and saw Bigfoot pretty much everywhere he went up there? So funny they claim to be so down with it all, yet the first and only picture of a supposed real beast that shows up on their Times Union story is from like 1972 and it's an obvious and admitted fake/hoax going way back...to 1972. That's really the best picture the Blind Bigfooters of Whitehall™ could supply for the story?
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Old 6th July 2018, 04:48 AM   #1823
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It was LAL or SweatyYeti, one of them saw Bigfootses in New York.
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:22 PM   #1824
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Oh my - that website design!
Looks like something you would find on geocities, circa 1995.
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Old 8th July 2018, 05:54 AM   #1825
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Oh my - that website design!
But they are proud to be from & born in the USA, whatever that means.
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Old 8th July 2018, 09:06 AM   #1826
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
I knew I wasn't dreaming all that up. There's definitely some confusion. As far as I've known going way back, there was the film in the camera (the original) from which Patterson initially made ONLY FOUR 'master' copies. These were the ones to be used to make any and all future copies. And of those initial four, Patterson had one, Dahinden had one, Green had one and Beckjord had one. Is that incorrect? Anyone?

And if in fact the frames or plates or whatever it is he's "comparing" aren't taken from only those four first gen copies or the original itself, what's the point? Almost comically, Munns has totally overlooked the notion that the PGF not being 4K is one of the reasons for its longevity. A supposed "clearer picture" would likely only serve to confirm to the fence sitters what's already well known to everyone else.
I have been checking into the Beckjord stuff donated to the Willow Creek museum and there is no first gen copy there nor is there any known first gen copy anywhere.

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Old 8th July 2018, 10:02 AM   #1827
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Cliffie is starting up a Bigfoot adventure safari excursion snipe hunt business for his many rube fans.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:53 PM   #1828
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Originally Posted by DennyT View Post
I have been checking into the Beckjord stuff donated to the Willow Creek museum and there is no first gen copy there nor is there any known first gen copy anywhere.
I'm certainly not surprised. Most of what I've "known" about it was told by Beckjord himself and he would have been the first kind of person to claim a third generation PGF copy was a first generation. Though I'd bet serious money Patterson's wife and/or DeAtley do have both the original and a good master and probably even other copies.
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Old 9th July 2018, 02:37 PM   #1829
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
I'm certainly not surprised. Most of what I've "known" about it was told by Beckjord himself and he would have been the first kind of person to claim a third generation PGF copy was a first generation. Though I'd bet serious money Patterson's wife and/or DeAtley do have both the original and a good master and probably even other copies.
Don't forget the suit as well
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:34 PM   #1830
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Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
Don't forget the suit as well
I did and I don't know why. The suit especially. Isn't it like the holy grail? And I'm convinced DeAtley (not Patterson's wife) either has it under lock and key or it was completely destroyed almost immediately after (within weeks). It had to go into hiding at least as soon as the PGF got any traction for fear their ruse would become unraveled so easily if it ever showed up. Disparaging words from the Bob Heironimouses of the world they could defend with more (mere) words, actual Bigfoot suits not so much.
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:41 AM   #1831
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Originally Posted by DennyT View Post
Cliffie is starting up a Bigfoot adventure safari excursion snipe hunt business for his many rube fans.
I hope for the sake of the children, that he is not still teaching...

"Excuse me? your teacher believes bigfoot is real?"
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:58 AM   #1832
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Patterson was running a money making hoax with the whole bigfoot deal, capped by his masterpiece movie, imo. So I think Patterson destroyed that suit pretty quickly.

Making a second movie of bigfoot would have been too risky. A lot of people would have begun to be suspicious if Patterson just happened to get lucky a second time and have bigfoot sashay across his bow again.

I think the bigfoot suit had lost it's value to Patterson, and it was only a liability.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 10th July 2018, 08:27 AM   #1833
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Mrs. Patterson doesn’t have a first gen copy. DeAtley may but he hasn’t admitted it and has no reason to hide it. He may still have the roll which contains the stomp test that Gimlin repeatedly refers to.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #1834
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The stomp test idea was probably abandoned when Patty's estimated weight from the film just wasn't matching up to the supposed stomp test results.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 15th July 2018, 06:10 PM   #1835
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There are several possible mismatches or errors that would have waved a red flag. I think the most likely one is the leaves.
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Old 17th July 2018, 07:31 AM   #1836
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Longtime Finding Bigfoot actor Cliff B. seems to be something of a loon about Bigfoot. Not content to make a living off entertaining the rubes, he seems to feel he has something to add to the science of bigfootery. He has been browsing amongst Meldrums collection of casts and building his own stack as well, making weird statements about areas in which he has no training. He even wrote a “paper” about the “London trackway” for Meldrum’s RHI in 2013. It’s in the Brief Communications section. Well, I think most people with a brain and an ear to the ground realize by now that London was a hoax. I’d say that Cliff and or Meldrum should withdraw the paper or at least print an addendum. But there it sits, yet another monument to bad thinking, bad writing, bad editing and bad methods. You want to see Dunning-Kruger in action this is it:
uger in action, this is it.
“In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.”

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Old 17th July 2018, 10:00 PM   #1837
AlaskaBushPilot
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Originally Posted by DennyT View Post
You want to see Dunning-Kruger in action this is it:
uger in action, this is it.
I'm a big fan of the principle, you'll find it pretty ancient wisdom. A number of passages in Proverbs speak to the phenomenon quite directly.

A fool speaks first, often, and loudly - so confident in themselves when they don't know **** from shinola. Not quoting word for word here on the King James version but we read a lot of Proverbs at supper with the kids and this is one of the principles they hit on a lot.

The other side of the Effect is that people who are highly competent are guarded in their responses, speaking conservatively and pretty humble compared to the village idiots.

You combine those two things together and it explains in part the hubris of ignorance. The invincibility of stupid before the far more qualified.

William Parcher mentioned Roger used distance as a way to prohibit clear focus. Roger rented a gorilla suit and ran it up on the bus from Hollywood before he made the Patty Suit. From that experience he learned that he needed both distance, shaking, and suit modification to pull off the hoax.

I'd bet on DeAtley having the originals, sure. Even if you don't buy into the legend of him having saved the Patty Suit in a glass case.

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Old 23rd July 2018, 08:20 AM   #1838
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It seems pretty clear now that Patterson had the frame speed set at a slow 16 Frames PS, (it seems to have run a bit faster at 18; Meldrum summarizes the evidence in SLMS). Whether RP was going for motion blur or just being cheap we will never know for sure. He was asked about it and could easily have given the cheapskate defense. But he didn’t. So I suspect he wanted some blur.
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Old 24th July 2018, 11:16 AM   #1839
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From the Kodak K-100 manual:

"Set the speed dial
The speed dial can be turned until any one of five speeds (16, 24, 32, 48, or 64 frames per second) is opposite the index mark.
For normal screen action, when using a silent projector, use the 16 frames per second speed. Film to be run at sound speed should be exposed at 24 frames per second."

FYI, the dial has numbers on it, but no detents. That is, the dial turns smoothly from slowest to faster speeds, with no clear stops at any of the numbers. It can be set anywhere in between the indicated numbers, so nailing the speed to a given standard is best guess.

Later on the manual reads:

"Camera speed
For normal screen action with silent pictures, set the camera speed at 16 frames per second.
If sound is to be dubbed in, or if you expect to run the film at sound speed, the camera should be operated at 24 frames per second. When setting the camera speed, remember that any camera speed faster than projection speed will produce slower-then-normal action in the projected picture.
The speed dial can be turned until any one of five speeds (16, 24, 32, 48, or 64 frames per second) is opposite the index mark. Intermediate speeds can be obtained by turning the dial until the index mark is between any two numbers."

Later still is the mention of shutter speeds:

"Shutter speeds
The exposure data is given on the basis of 16 frames per second. The use of any faster (frame rate) speed requires a larger lens opening (stop); for example, at 32 frames per second, the lens opening should be 1 stop larger; at 64 frames per second, the lens should be 2 stops larger. The Cine-Kodak Universal Guide shows the proper lens opening for each camera speed."

Then there's a chart:

"Exposure time (shutter speed) in Seconds
Single frame - 1/20
16 Frames per second - 1/35
24 Frames per second - 1/50
32 frames per second - 1/70
48 Frames per second - 1/100
64 Frames per second - 1/140"

The shutter speed on the K-100 is not adjustable. It is a fixed function of the frame rate speed, because the shutter is a spinning wheel with a gap in it that spins around for each frame that progresses. The faster the film is transported through the camera, the faster the shutter wheel spins, and the shorter the interval that the gap passes the film aperture/gate.

If Roger was going to follow the directions in the manual, he should have set the camera at 16 fps, since that's standard for a silent projector at that time. If he were aiming for a theatrical release, he should have set it at 24 fps, which is standard (then as now) cinema speed.

If only there was some way to see the film played at the various speeds so we could make up our own minds. Anyone know of examples of the film played back at various speeds?

And, uh, does it really matter what the camera speed was set to? If it plays back faster than it was shot, it will look sped up like the Keystone Cops, and if it is played back slower than it was shot, it will look like the monitor lizards used as dinosaurs in old sci-fi movies. Either way, the too fast or too slow would be obvious, as we know what patty's size was and how it should be walking to look natural.
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Old 24th July 2018, 12:09 PM   #1840
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Originally Posted by Tontar View Post
From the Kodak K-100 manual:

"Set the speed dial
The speed dial can be turned until any one of five speeds (16, 24, 32, 48, or 64 frames per second) is opposite the index mark.
For normal screen action, when using a silent projector, use the 16 frames per second speed. Film to be run at sound speed should be exposed at 24 frames per second."

FYI, the dial has numbers on it, but no detents. That is, the dial turns smoothly from slowest to faster speeds, with no clear stops at any of the numbers. It can be set anywhere in between the indicated numbers, so nailing the speed to a given standard is best guess.

Later on the manual reads:

"Camera speed
For normal screen action with silent pictures, set the camera speed at 16 frames per second.
If sound is to be dubbed in, or if you expect to run the film at sound speed, the camera should be operated at 24 frames per second. When setting the camera speed, remember that any camera speed faster than projection speed will produce slower-then-normal action in the projected picture.
The speed dial can be turned until any one of five speeds (16, 24, 32, 48, or 64 frames per second) is opposite the index mark. Intermediate speeds can be obtained by turning the dial until the index mark is between any two numbers."

Later still is the mention of shutter speeds:

"Shutter speeds
The exposure data is given on the basis of 16 frames per second. The use of any faster (frame rate) speed requires a larger lens opening (stop); for example, at 32 frames per second, the lens opening should be 1 stop larger; at 64 frames per second, the lens should be 2 stops larger. The Cine-Kodak Universal Guide shows the proper lens opening for each camera speed."

Then there's a chart:

"Exposure time (shutter speed) in Seconds
Single frame - 1/20
16 Frames per second - 1/35
24 Frames per second - 1/50
32 frames per second - 1/70
48 Frames per second - 1/100
64 Frames per second - 1/140"

The shutter speed on the K-100 is not adjustable. It is a fixed function of the frame rate speed, because the shutter is a spinning wheel with a gap in it that spins around for each frame that progresses. The faster the film is transported through the camera, the faster the shutter wheel spins, and the shorter the interval that the gap passes the film aperture/gate.

If Roger was going to follow the directions in the manual, he should have set the camera at 16 fps, since that's standard for a silent projector at that time. If he were aiming for a theatrical release, he should have set it at 24 fps, which is standard (then as now) cinema speed.

If only there was some way to see the film played at the various speeds so we could make up our own minds. Anyone know of examples of the film played back at various speeds?

And, uh, does it really matter what the camera speed was set to? If it plays back faster than it was shot, it will look sped up like the Keystone Cops, and if it is played back slower than it was shot, it will look like the monitor lizards used as dinosaurs in old sci-fi movies. Either way, the too fast or too slow would be obvious, as we know what patty's size was and how it should be walking to look natural.
No amount of PGF debunking will deter the bigfoot rubber duckies. They are too invested in the narrative to admit any doubt. The top two threads in general discussion currently over at Bigfoot Fantasies Forever mention measurements and dimensions as established facts rather than the armchair wild-as guesses that they actually are. No reality allowed on this playground.
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