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Tags big cats , cats , cryptozoology , Scotland incidents

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Old 29th July 2009, 10:53 AM   #81
Marduk
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post

Why would they say that after the skull find?
Defra were recently caught covering up and playing down the evidence, they were forced to release information under the freedom of information act which showed they have examined plenty of animal remains over the years some of which showed clear evidence of a big cat attack and in every case they claimed "predator unknown" based on the fact that they didn't actually have the corpse of the animal responsible. The forestry commission were also forced to release information on a pair of panthers in the forest of dean spotted by forest rangers with thermal cameras on two seperate occaisons years apart. The rangers themselves were very clear on what they had seen and you don't get domestic cats that deep in the forest as someone suggested
it would cause public panic to know that there was a possibility of coming across a big cat in the wild, we have enough trouble getting parents to understand that every stranger is not a paedophile intent on raping and murdering their children without starting a nationwide panic over every domestic feline thats spotted without anything in view for scale



I'm posting this evidence because I am familiar with it, what I've posted is just a fraction and I am in two minds about it myself, but well, if you don't know the evidence then opinion is worthless. Especially on a discussion board. I'm going to keep an open mind on this and keep my ears open.

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Old 29th July 2009, 10:55 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
I know, but not in the numbers that present a serious threat--that's what the story was about. In fact, when I heard the story (some years back), conservation officials said the Iowa sightings were probably just "visiting" cougars--that is, at the time there wasn't a "resident" population, and the numbers of sightings being reported in the news were not credible.
...
.
I got an e-mail some time ago about a cougar that had been hit and killed by a car, about 1000 miles from where it had been trapped and banded, out there in the Midwest.
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Old 29th July 2009, 11:02 AM   #83
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
The forestry commission were also forced to release information on a pair of panthers in the forest of dean spotted by forest rangers with thermal cameras. The rangers themselves were very clear on what they had seen and you don't get domestic cats that deep in the forest as someone suggested

I'm posting this evidence because I am familiar with it, what I've posted is just a fraction and I am in two minds about it myself, but well, if you don't know the evidence then opinion is worthless. Especially on a discussion board. I'm going to keep an open mind on this and keep my ears open.

Let's take a look at this evidence right now. Start with a link to the rangers' report on the thermal vision sightings. Then let's see a link to an official report on that Puma skull.
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Old 29th July 2009, 11:32 AM   #84
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I found two quotes which are apparently variations of the same thing...


Quote:
In July 2005 a farmer in North Devon discovered a skull belonging to a large cat, and has since been identified as that of a Puma. It is currently being examined.
Quote:
In July 2005 a farmer in North Devon discovered a large cat's skull, which has since been identified as a puma's. It was apparently taken for scientific analysis, though no results have ever been released.
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Old 29th July 2009, 12:38 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Defra were recently caught covering up and playing down the evidence, they were forced to release information under the freedom of information act which showed they have examined plenty of animal remains over the years some of which showed clear evidence of a big cat attack and in every case they claimed "predator unknown" based on the fact that they didn't actually have the corpse of the animal responsible.

Evidence?

Yes, we have examined plenty of animal remains over the years. And you know what? We have to record the diagnosis in every single case. On the networked computer system. We get assessed and tested on the accuracy of our recording as well.

Here's where all that data end up.

Now I would dearly know how anyone has been able to go back and decide that certain animals "showed evidence of a big cat attack". Anything having been killed by a predator I would class as "trauma/fracture", because that's the closest I can get. For sheep, that is VIDA code 544. Look it up. That's how I coded the sheep mauled by dogs that I dealt with last year.

To do what you suggest, you'd have to dig up the actual post mortem reports to separate out the ones that refer to a predator from the road accidents and the falls and the handling accidents and so on. Supposing someone did that, all of them would be listed as "predator unknown" unless someone had actually seen the animal being attacked. I was 99.9% sure the ones I examined were dogs, and I reported them to both the police and the SSPCA as such, but DEFRA is a stickler for accuracy, and would correctly report "predator unknown".

I would dearly love to know, even if these reports were examined as you suggest, who it was who decided that any of the reports actually showed evidence that the predator was a "big cat"? Anything where you didn't actually see what the teeth were attached to could be anything, and nobody would go on record as saying it couldn't have been. What it probably was and where the evidence pointed is another question though.

It occurs to me, depending on when the request was made, that the handful of sheep I mentioned up-thread that I post mortemed myself might well have been among them. Nobody asked me, as the only person in a position to have any real idea, whether I thought a big cat was likely.

I do remember something, though. Months ago. Someone asked me if we took samples of bite wounds for DNA testing to see if we could identify what species had inflicted the bite. I said no, we didn't have routine facilities for that, but it would be something to consider if we ever had real reason to suspect there was something strange going on. However, the real usefulness of that would be if we could identify the original dog, so that we could prosecute the owner. I wonder if this was in connection with the FoI request you mention?

However, we'd previously discussed the cases I mentioned all round the houses and concluded that the evidence wasn't consistent with anything big enough to predate livestock living in the area, and was consistent with somebody with an out-of-control Rottweiler. I thought maybe if it happened again I should freeze a bit of the wound margin in case someone showed up with a suspect on the end of a lead, but there hasn't been another case since then.

So forgive, me, but I need to know exactly what you got from DEFRA that was interpreted in the way you describe it, and who made the decision that there was evidence of big cat attacks. I do know how the system works, and your version sounds extraordinary unlikely.

And another thing, if DEFRA wanted to cover up or downplay anything like that, you know what? They'd have to tell those of us at the front line, those of us actually doing the post mortems on a day to day basis, to make false reports in these cases, and then to keep it all confidential. Somehow, I must have missed that memo!

Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
The forestry commission were also forced to release information on a pair of panthers in the forest of dean spotted by forest rangers with thermal cameras on two seperate occaisons years apart. The rangers themselves were very clear on what they had seen and you don't get domestic cats that deep in the forest as someone suggested.

Evidence? And why would DEFRA and the Forestry Commission be covering anything up? Why not simply tell the newspapers?

Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
it would cause public panic to know that there was a possibility of coming across a big cat in the wild, we have enough trouble getting parents to understand that every stranger is not a paedophile intent on raping and murdering their children without starting a nationwide panic over every domestic feline thats spotted without anything in view for scale

Oh for goodness sake! These are government departments. The way they think, they'd be wetting themselves in case they were sued and held liable for not warning the public of a potential risk in the countryside.

Just think about the probabilities for about two minutes if you can. We do know that some non-native species have escaped into the wild and formed breeding colonies in Britain. It's not a state secret. Mink, coypu, sika deer, grey squirrels, probably more. Some of them are pests. Why would anyone be particularly reticent about a few leopard cats, for goodnes sake? We'd either be trying to eradicate them or selling tickets to go out and watch them, depending on what seemed like the appropriate response.

Rolfe.
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Old 29th July 2009, 01:15 PM   #86
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A little OT here. I was amazed earlier today by a curious little feline under an abandoned car. I, being the wise-ass i am, tried to scare it by shouting at it, and yet, not one movement from it. We just stared at each other (I lost the staring contest..darn it!).

In relation to this thread: Has anyone ever had a run in with Large Housecats or even mystery felines?
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Old 29th July 2009, 02:31 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Evidence?

Yes, we have examined plenty of animal remains over the years. And you know what? We have to record the diagnosis in every single case. On the networked computer system. We get assessed and tested on the accuracy of our recording as well.
SNIP


Rolfe.
have you read any of the previous posts at all Rolfe or were you giving them the same amount of scrutiny where you missed almost 50% of the unknown sources from the other link you didn't bother to read. You are repeatedly asking the same questions that have already been answered. I understand that you by your own admittance are incapable of determining a big cat attack froman animals remains, you don't need to keep stating it, and whos "we", did you suddenly become royal. I have sent off several emails today to government bodies attempting to request the information requested by Mr Parcher, you and your indifference to the already posted facts will have to wait. I am starting to think by your attitude that you actually have a vested interest in keeping the facts off this forum,

We are here to examine the existing evidence, we havent started to do that yet so please hold your vehemence back for a day or so if you can manage it. And I'll tell you again because your intellect keeps missing it, I'm not the message here, I'm just a mesenger. Stop sniping at me, if you don't appreciate a collection of data so that an informed opinion can be made its no concern of mine, thats your own personal issue

thanks

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Old 29th July 2009, 02:47 PM   #88
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ETA: This is what I have been doing for the past two hours. Examining the evidence you said you were familiar with. And "we" is the VIOs (veterinary investigation officers) of England and Wales, and Scotland. That's my job, you know, what they pay me for. Finding out what livestock have died of. Since I don't do it all singlehanded though, I acknowledge my colleagues by referring to "we".

Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
I'm posting this evidence because I am familiar with it, what I've posted is just a fraction and I am in two minds about it myself, but well, if you don't know the evidence then opinion is worthless. Especially on a discussion board. I'm going to keep an open mind on this and keep my ears open.

OK, let's just look at the one page of actual official information you linked to. You say you're familiar with it. I beg to differ.

What is it? "Reports received by DEFRA of escapes of non-native cats in the UK, 1975 to present day." Sounds very much like the response to an FoI request, actually. I wonder when "present day" was, because the last report is dated May 2001, more than eight years ago. If DEFRA were keeping that information for itself, it would be updated, but either there's been nothing in 8 years, or they've just made the list when requested, and abandoned it.

And if DEFRA wanted that information, it would be properly recorded. Which this isn't. It's a mish-mash of missing data and mistakes. In my opinion, someone was told to dredge up what they could find, put it into an Excel spreadsheet, and don't waste too much time on it.

If I'd been the one asking for that information, I'd have asked them to go back and do it again, but maybe whoever wanted it wasn't too critical and didn't look at it too closely. You say you're familiar with it, but you didn't even know how many "unknowns" there were, never mind spot the duplications and the implausibilities!

Now if I was given that information, and I was looking for evidence of a breeding population, I'd go through it in detail. I'd be looking for more than one individual of the same species identified in the same geographical area. But if you do that, you draw an almost total blank.

There are 27 actual entries on the table. Let's number them and look at what we've got.

1 and 2. A leopard and a clouded leopard, recorded as different species, but both loose in Kent in 1975. One report is dated April 1975, saying a leopard escaped on New Year's Day that year and was recaptured four days later. The other report is dated 1986, and says that a clouded leopard escaped in August and was shot the following January. Is this two different incidents, or an original and a later garbled report of the same incident? Who knows. But see below for the probable explanation.

3. That's Felicity. Well known case, which you showed a nice picture of. As I said, if a puma can't even hide out in that wilderness in the 1970s without leaving traces, it's hardly going to manage it in well-farmed Ayrshire in 2009, about five miles from a Veterinary Disease Investigation Centre which will get most of the dead livestock from the nearby farms for examination.

4. A caracal. Someone reported in 1993 that such an animal had been shot in Kent in 1980. No other details. It does rather look in this case as if the date in the "escaped" column should be in the "captured" column. But there's insufficient information to provide even a faint clue what that's all about, unless you put two and two together as I did below.

5. An ocelot. Date of escape, capture and report all given as 1st November 1981. Which either means there was a very specific incident, which should be traceable from contemporary news sources, or someone simply made a report that month that an ocelot had been shot in Lancashire. Can you find any more information on that one?

6. A jaguar. Apparently shot in North Wales in September 1982, with the report dated 20th September. Again I'm very sceptical of the escaped and captured dates being the same, and the first of the month. I suspect this just indicates that the incident occurred that month and was reported that day. You should be able to find this in the local press as well, do tell us what that was all about.

7. A lion, in Norfolk. Wow! At least the dates on this look specific. It seems to have escaped on 5th January 1984, been shot the same day, and reported the following day. I'm sure you'd find out the zoo or the circus that let that one go if you looked.

8. A tiger, in Kent. Another one with slightly ambiguous dates, but it appears that on 19th October 1994 this animal had escaped and was "shot and recaptured" some time that month.

What is this about Kent? One of the most farmed, tamed and populated counties in Britain! This is ringing a few bells. This bell, to be exact. John Aspinall ran a very peculiar zoo in Kent from the 1970s to his death in 2000. It leaked like a sieve. I'd take a moderate bet that all these Kent incidents are Aspinall's security problems.

That really disposes of 1, 2, 4, 8, 11 and 14 (already noted as "not a credible sighting"). The note against 11 suggests this matter was the subject of a question in parliament, though you'd have to track that down as well to see what the details are.

9 and 10 are the same incident, recorded twice. A leopard cat, apparently originating in Cumbria and shot in the Borders (hmmm, seems quite a long way for a small cat, I wonder how reliable the provenance of that is), some time in 1987.

12. A puma met with some sort of an accident in Leicestershire, in early 1988. Better get to those local newspapers again.

13 and 25 are both the same case. Another leopard cat, shot in Devon in March 1988, reported in April 1988.

Looking so closely at the data, I would now agree with you that an entry in the "date escaped" column means nothing. It's often just the same date as the "date recaptured" one, and the frequency of firsts of months and indeed firsts of Januarys suggests that only a month or maybe a year was originally entered and Excel did the rest. This has just been cobbled together in a hurry by someone with better things to do with his time.

15. A jungle cat, hit by a car in Hampshire. This report specifically says that the animal escaped on 29th July 1988 and was found dead on 28th May 1989. However, again we'd need to see some primary sources.

16. Another jungle cat, listed as having escaped from Cheshire and found dead of unknown causes in Shropshire, all on 3rd February 1989. This seems to be the second one you listed in your original post. A bit funny it managed to mate with domestic cats and have several offspring, all in one day! This again merely illustrates the unreliability of the DEFRA spreadsheet, with the same date entered in all three columns.

I wonder where the Cheshire part comes in? Looking at it again, I think the "location of source" column actually records the place where the report came from, not the place where the animal came from. Which makes it even more difficult to get meaningful information out of this mish-mash.

17. A lynx. Someone in Norfolk said they saw one. Maybe they made the report in February 1992, saying that they saw it the previous year. That's all we can tell from this, this animal is reported as having an unknown fate, but having been recaptured on 1st January 1950.

Look, this data is so scrappy, careless and poorly recorded that the best place for it would probably be the bin. Nevertheless, let's press on.

18. A lion. Recaptured in Humberside in 1991, with the report being dated 9th March 1991. A zoo or a circus? Look for the news report, I'd suggest.

19. A snow leopard. Apparently escaped and was recaptured on 29th November 1994 on Humberside, with the report dated the following day.

What sort of data sources are being used for this game anyway? It looks to me like a bunch of press clippings, some of them without a great deal of detail in them. I don't imagine this was the result of a google search in 2001, not to get stuff going back to 1975, but I wonder if some poor minion has simply been told to get a bunch of agency clippings and tabulate the results. (And don't spend too much time on it....)

20. A lynx. Allegedly escaped in Oxfordshire on 5th November 1996 and recaptured on the 28th, all got from a report dated 13th November.

21. An asiatic golden cat, A report originating in Somerset dated 15th May 1998 said one was loose some time in September the previous year. No other details.

22 and 23 are both the same case, the leopard cat you referred to earlier as being shot on the Isle of Wight. You dated that 1993, however the DEFRA spreadsheet has the report dated 1994 but the incident dated 1987. Frankly, by this stage, I'm more inclined to rely on your sources!

24 is that lynx that was discovered in London in May 2001, the last one on your original list.

26 looks uncannily like the leopard cat we already met as both 9 and 10, just a later report of the same incident.

27 is almost certailny your fecund friend from Shropshire again, but this time the information taken from a source dated 22nd November 1993.

OK, that's my assimilation of the spreadsheet. I'm going to stop now and summarise in another post.

Rolfe.
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Old 29th July 2009, 02:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
In my opinion, someone was told to dredge up what they could find, put it into an Excel spreadsheet, and don't waste too much time on it.
SNIP.
your opinion isn't credible and your above statement is nonsense
Epic Fail,
read previous posts then I won't have to ignore yours

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Old 29th July 2009, 02:51 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
I understand that you by your own admittance are incapable of determining a big cat attack froman animals remains, you don't need to keep stating it, and whos "we", did you suddenly become royal.
Canids and felids approach, attack, kill, and eat prey animals in meaningfully different ways. Injured animals and carcasses can reveal if it was caused by one or the other. It is also sometimes possible to determine the size and species of felid if that was the attacker.


Quote:
I have sent off several emails today to government bodies attempting to request the information requested by Mr Parcher, you and your indifference to the already posted facts will have to wait. I am starting to think by your attitude that you actually have a vested interest in keeping the facts off this forum,

We are here to examine the existing evidence, we havent started to do that yet so please hold your vehemence back for a day or so if you can manage it. And I'll tell you again because your intellect keeps missing it, I'm not the message here, I'm just a mesenger. Stop sniping at me, if you don't appreciate a collection of data so that an informed opinion can be made its no concern of mine, thats your own personal issue
I greatly appreciate you trying to get this info. It interests me. There is always a danger when getting info from non-professional enthusiast websites and forums. They commonly engage in propagandizement. It's the same in Bigfootery. It's always good to go for the source data. Yes, you are only the messenger. But those pro-ABC sites are also only messengers. Why aren't the reports you are seeking already posted on their enthusiast websites? Did none of them previously think to ask for what you are seeking now?
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Old 29th July 2009, 02:56 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Canids and felids approach, attack, kill, and eat prey animals in meaningfully different ways. Injured animals and carcasses can reveal if it was caused by one or the other. It is also sometimes possible to determine the size and species of felid if that was the attacker.
I understand this, this is why people who climb into the lion enclosures at zoos usually survive and why people who climb into the leopard habitat don't



Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I greatly appreciate you trying to get this info. It interests me. There is always a danger when getting info from non-professional enthusiast websites and forums. They commonly engage in propagandizement. It's the same in Bigfootery. It's always good to go for the source data. Yes, you are only the messenger. But those pro-ABC sites are also only messengers. Why aren't the reports you are seeking already posted on their enthusiast websites? Did none of them previously think to ask for what you are seeking now?
I'll be the first to admit that I am not satisfied by the credibility of the evidence so far presented, thats why I'm going to the source, I have learned from long experience that you can't take any research presented on the net seriously unless its your own. Usually my discipline is regards to historic subjects and I am attempting to use the same care with this subject as I do with that. But it might take a couple of days. Government sources with an agenda can't be trusted either, the one person here who claims to be associated with them has decided theres no evidence before he knew what it was which is pretty typical imho
ce la vie
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:01 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
have you read any of the previous posts at all Rolfe or were you giving them the same amount of scrutiny where you missed almost 50% of the unknown sources from the other link you didn't bother to read.

Far from not bothering to read it, I'm giving it the fine-tooth comb treatment. The closer you look, the more it falls to bits, unfortunately. I now don't believe the "source" column means any more but the county of publication of the newspaper clipping the minion was summarising.

You, however, didn't seem even to have noticed that five of the 27 "cases" were duplicates.

Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
I have sent off several emails today to government bodies attempting to request the information requested by Mr Parcher,

Oh God, I hope nobody goes to too much trouble over this, we've all got more to do than trawl the database for this sort of nonsense.

Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
you and your indifference to the already posted facts will have to wait. I am starting to think by your attitude that you actually have a vested interest in keeping the facts off this forum,

Oh lovely, can we move this lot to the CT forum, please? I need to get my NWO Kitty t-shirt on for this! I just knew you were going to decide that I was part of this amazing coverup sooner or later.



Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
We are here to examine the existing evidence, we havent started to do that yet so please hold your vehemence back for a day or so if you can manage it. And I'll tell you again because your intellect keeps missing it, I'm not the message here, I'm just a mesenger. Stop sniping at me, if you don't appreciate a collection of data so that an informed opinion can be made its no concern of mine, thats your own personal issue

How about you actually engage your brain and look at that DEFRA spreadsheet again?

Rolfe.
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:03 PM   #93
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Quote:
people who climb into the lion enclosures at zoos usually survive and why people who climb into the leopard habitat don't
That could be due to levels of aggression and temperment of the felinids. Lions, despite being much larger, would likely not pounce on you for no reason, unless it was survival. Leopards, on the other hand, are smaller, yet quicker and less predictable felinids than the lion.

It also could be due to lack of intimidation for the lion (A 150 pound man challenges a 500 pound beast with bone crushing power. The most likely outcome is that the lion would not even bother with such a weakling, where as in the leopards case, it would attack you due to food shortages/temperment/intimidation factor/ or just plain hatred, which i find to be incredibly rare in animals towards humans
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:07 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by makaya325 View Post
That could be due to levels of aggression and temperment of the felinids. Lions, despite being much larger, would likely not pounce on you for no reason, unless it was survival. Leopards, on the other hand, are smaller, yet quicker and less predictable felinids than the lion.
its because in the wild bipeds are a normal food source for leopards, and so they have developed strategies to kill them efficiently

while lions rely on quadrupeds
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:11 PM   #95
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It is just like a conspiracy theory!
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:12 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Far from not bothering to read it, I'm giving it the fine-tooth comb treatment. The closer you look, the more it falls to bits, unfortunately. I now don't believe the "source" column means any more but the county of publication of the newspaper clipping the minion was summarising.

You, however, didn't seem even to have noticed that five of the 27 "cases" were duplicates.




Oh God, I hope nobody goes to too much trouble over this, we've all got more to do than trawl the database for this sort of nonsense.




Oh lovely, can we move this lot to the CT forum, please? I need to get my NWO Kitty t-shirt on for this! I just knew you were going to decide that I was part of this amazing coverup sooner or later.
far from it, I have far bigger issues with your attempt to dismiss something without examining the evidence, this is not a good sceptic attitude

please read this and attempt to understand my position
Quote:
The true sceptic is a welcome asset to real research. He says: "Maybe its true, but possibly not". The pseudo-sceptic contributes nothing to research. Before examining or discussing he shoots out: "This is bunk. Nothing to see here!" For some pseudo-sceptics this has become daily routine in the medias. Zero contribution, much destruction.
Pseudo-sceptics as those who take "the negative rather than an agnostic position but still call themselves 'sceptics'
Scientism is what happens when you get large groups of scientifically-inclined men together who think in aching naive black and white terms.
"If society then offers them up a sacrificial common enemy, then irrationality and dogmatic fervour is almost certainly guaranteed:
- The tendency to deny, rather than doubt
-Double standards in the application of criticism
-The making of judgments without full inquiry
-Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate
-Use of ridicule or ad hominem attacks in lieu of arguments
-Pejorative labeling of proponents as 'promoters', 'pseudoscientists' or practitioners of 'pathological science.'
-Presenting insufficient evidence or proof
-Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof
-Making unsubstantiated counter-claims
-Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence
- Suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it."
Marcello Truzzi




Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How about you actually engage your brain and look at that DEFRA spreadsheet again?

Rolfe.
what part of " I am not satisfied by the credibility of the evidence so far presented, thats why I'm going to the source" did you not understand, I could translate it into babylonian if it helps ?

please feel free to poke holes in the flimsy evidence already presented, it should keep you busy for a few days
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:16 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
its because in the wild bipeds are a normal food source for leopards, and so they have developed strategies to kill them efficiently

That's a picture of a leopard chasing the rare bipedal baboon? What bipeds are the "normal food source for leopards"? Ostriches?

Are you a troll?
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:30 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's a picture of a leopard chasing the rare bipedal baboon? What bipeds are the "normal food source for leopards"? Ostriches?
Quote:
All primates can sit upright. Many primates can stand upright on their hind legs without any support. Chimpanzees, bonobos, gibbons and baboons[7] exhibit relatively advanced forms of bipedalism.
I don't understand the question, are you claiming that baboons aren't bipedal or that you don't realise that leopards are partial to monkeys and baboons ?

Quote:
All primates can sit upright. Many primates can stand upright on their hind legs without any support. Chimpanzees, bonobos, gibbons and baboons exhibit relatively advanced forms of bipedalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipedalism#Primates
Quote:
Leopards are carnivores and will eat any meat item they can find: monkeys, baboons, rodents, reptiles, amphibians, large birds, fish, antelope, cheetah cubs, and porcupines. At the San Diego Zoo, leopards are generally fed carnivore diet, with an occasional large bone, thawed rabbit, or sheep carcass.
http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-leopard.html

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Are you a troll?
Trolls post inflamatory statements and insults, there is more evidence for that from you than me, were you deliberately trying to insult me there or did you suddenly get retarded ?


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Old 29th July 2009, 03:36 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I'll go along with that too, as a "rule-of-thumb". Good point.

Most people would, I think, where a purebred is concerned, say "Ooh look! A Siamese!" or "Burmese have no brains."

Still, it would be common to hear someone who is looking at a purebred Chinchilla asking, "What kind of moggie is that?"



Thanks rjh
The bolded bit has now put you on my cat's hit list.You will not have a good time in "the stoopid monkey box o'doom"
You->
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
I don't understand the question, are you claiming that baboons aren't bipedal or that you don't realise that leopards are partial to monkeys and baboons?
It was the context. Baboons are not generally refered to as bipeds, in spite of having the capacity for bipedalism. Besides that, your context was goofy. Captive leopards attack humans because we walk upright just like baboons sometimes do? Whaaa?
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:43 PM   #101
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As far as I'm aware, humans and bonobos are the only primates that are truly or primarily bipedal, they're the only ones with the proper pelvis for it. The other primates can move in a bipedal fashion for short periods of time, but if they were being chased, would go with what works best for them, which would be as quadrupeds.

ETA - and in that picture, just as a horse at a full gallop will have all four hooves off the ground momentarily, that baboon has it's front limbs off the ground

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Old 29th July 2009, 03:46 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It was the context. Baboons are not generally refered to as bipeds, in spite of having the capacity for bipedalism. Besides that, your context was goofy. Captive leopards attack humans because we walk upright just like baboons sometimes do? Whaaa?
leopards captive or not attack bipeds by jumping up and slashing the face with their front claws while using their back claws to disembowell the prey item, lions on the other hand attack bipeds by using their weight to subdue the animal and then chew bits off usually starting with the limbs, which of these attacks is most likely to result in a fast fatality in your opinion ?

I thought this was common knowledge among anyone who had studied big cat predation, which was why I mentioned it, peoples attitudes and ignorance in this thread are starting to make me regret saying anything at all, keep it up why don't you


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Old 29th July 2009, 03:50 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
leopards captive or not attack bipeds by jumping up and slashing the face with their front claws while using their back claws to disembowell the prey item, lions on the other hand attack bipeds by using their weight to subdue the animal and then chew bits off usually starting with the limbs, which of these attacks is most likely to result in a fast fatality in your opinion ?

I thought this was common knowledge among anyone who had studied big cat predation, which was why I mentioned it, peoples attitudes and ignorance in this thread are starting to make me regret saying anything at all, keep it up why don't you


You have no idea what you are talking about. You are making this stuff up as you go. Your knowledge of Big Cat killing strategies and behavior is bankrupt.
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:51 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
your opinion isn't credible and your above statement is nonsense
Epic Fail,
read previous posts then I won't have to ignore yours
Considering Rolfe does veterinary pathology of this kind for a living, I'm far more inclined to find his opinion credible than yours.
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:52 PM   #105
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Having grown up in an area with wild predators running wild I agree with Rolfe. There is no way anything is going to survive by eating other animals without leaving a rather obvious trail of corpses and disappearances. I had about 8 or 9 cats growing up, and I only ever got to bury one of them.

The predator in my case being coyotes. Lots of peoples pets disappeared over the years, and I don't think anyone ever suggested anything more exotic than what we knew we had.

Why did we know we had coyotes?

1. We heard them howl at night. (not good evidence, because dogs could easily be mistaken for coyotes)

2. Occasionally we would spot one from the road. (also not good evidence , because dogs could easily be mistaken for coyotes)

3. Missing pets, not livestock though, cows lived in the field behind my house. (still not good evidence, because neighborhood dogs also eat peoples pets, and are know to be responsible in some of the cases in the area)

4. Roadkill. Real dead coyotes found in the road. Proof that they lived there.

So if anyone wants me to believe that a predatory big cat is living in Scotland they need to show me a lot more proof than a blurry picture of a cat that moves just like every house cat I've ever seen.
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Old 29th July 2009, 03:56 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's a picture of a leopard chasing the rare bipedal baboon? What bipeds are the "normal food source for leopards"? Ostriches?

Are you a troll?
Dunno ... SusanB-M1 says not -

Originally Posted by catbasket View Post
Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Just dropping in here to say that I know Marduk pretty well, and he's definitely not a troll. [snip]
Seriously?
Do you have any evidence for that?
Still haven't seen the evidence.
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:03 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Arisia View Post
Considering Rolfe does veterinary pathology of this kind for a living, I'm far more inclined to find his opinion credible than yours.
uhuh, you missed where he said that hes never seen an animal killed by a big cat then, imo that = 0% experience
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:14 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about. You are making this stuff up as you go. Your knowledge of Big Cat killing strategies and behavior is bankrupt.
says the man who didn't know that leopards prey on bipeds, really if thats your attitude you can go scuttle back under your bridge. I no longer have any interest in educating you with basic facts that you could verify for yourself in 30 seconds on google. Please carry on being willfully ignorant

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Old 29th July 2009, 04:15 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
uhuh, you missed where he said that hes never seen an animal killed by a big cat then, imo that = 0% experience
That might be because there are no big cats in his part of the world. That would be my first choice. I would think he would still be able to recognize the signs of a large feline having killed a sheep or cow, as opposed to a canine having done it.
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:15 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
leopards are partial to monkeys and baboons

You don't talk very pretty for the animal thread. Baboons are monkeys. It's like saying I'm partial to salmon and fish.
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:19 PM   #111
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The spreadsheet.

Probable provenance. In 2001 or soon afterwards, an FoI request is received for all "Reports received by DEFRA of escapes of non-native cats in the UK, 1975 to present day." Well, dammit, DEFRA doesn't collect this information. Oops, might look bad if we say that straight out, can we collect some now? Somehow, a selection of press clippings on the subject is assembled, and someone gets the job of tabulating these.

Some of the reports are quite specific, like no. 11, which related to a parliamentary question, but others are lacking in essential details. The minion assigned the task decides on a few headings, and starts inputting data. However, he often just has to enter a month or even just a year, and Excel converts all these to the first of the month or the first of January. The reports are often unclear on the exact date of "escape" and/or "capture", and in some of these cases he just puts the same month (or just the year) down in both columns.

He doesn't actually notice that he has two reports relating to each of three cases, and three reports relating to one more case, and as the data he enters are slightly different each time, they appear as if they were separate incidents. He doesn't even notice that he's managed to enter one of the capture dates as 1950. He just orders the list according to the "date escaped" column, and hands it in. Job done. And if the recipient was disappointed, then we have no record of that.

If we strike off the duplicates, and strike off the Aspinall escapes, we have 16 cases left.

3. Felicity, who was a puma, in Invernesshire in 1980
5. An ocelot in Lancashire in 1981
6. A jaguar in north Wales in 1982
7. A lion in Norfolk in 1984
9. A leopard cat in the Borders in 1987
12. A puma in Leicesteshire in 1988
13. A leopard cat in Devon in 1988
15. A jungle cat in Hampshire in 1988
16. A jungle cat in Shropshire in 1989
17. A lynx in Norfolk in 1991
18. A lion in Humberside in 1991
19. A snow leopard in Hertfordshire in 1994.
20. A lynx in Oxford in 1996.
21. An asiatic golden cat in Somerset in 1997.
22. A leopard cat on the Isle of Wight in 1987, or 1994, or maybe even 1993.
24. A lynx in London in 2001.

The information is so sketchy, that all it could really serve is as a basis for hunting up more details from other sources - maybe finding the original reports used to compile this list. Details have already been posted as regards 3, 16, 21 and 24. It's also quite likely that the list is incomplete. For a start, two of the reports Marduk included in his original post seem to be missing (the lynx in Suffolk in 1991 and the other lynx in Northern Ireland in 1996).

Still, is there anything there that might support the suggestion of the presence of a breeding colony of any of the species concerned?

There are five lynxes, if we add the other two from Marduk's reports, but they are quite widely scattered. Northern Ireland, Oxford, Norfolk, Suffolk and London. The one in Suffolk appears to have been loose for only two weeks, the one in London maybe for two hours, and the one in Northern Ireland even had a collar on.

There are three leopard cats listed, but they could hardly be more widely separated - the Borders, Devon, and the Isle of Wight. The last in particular is a highly unlikely location for a breeding colony of anything like that.

There are two jungle cats, in Hampshire and Shropshire.

There are two pumas, in Invernesshire and Leicestershire.

There are two lions, in Norfolk and Humberside.

And there are four species which appear only once each - ocelot, jaguar, snow leopard and asiatic golden cat.

So, if Marduk wants to make a case for a breeding population of any of these, then I'd be interested to hear it.

The lynx seems most promising, with five individuals, but as I pointed out, the three we have better details of are unlikely candidates. You might decide to look a bit more closely at the Norfolk/Suffolk thing, it could be your best chance. So, one lynx in a report Marduk posted, in Suffolk in 1991, which is unaccountably missing from the DEFRA list, and one lynx in Suffolk in 1991 which is present in the DEFRA list. I'd put money on these actually being the same case, given the lamentable lack of accuracy in the DEFRA list. And that one was only loose for two weeks. The London and the Northern Ireland ones were obviously escaped "pets", and we know nothing about the Oxford one except that Oxford is quite a long way from Suffolk.

The leopard cats are widely separated, as I said, and anyway, even if a breeding population of these had managed to get established, why on earth would anyone want to hush it up? They're not much bigger than domestic cats, and quite commonly kept as pets. A feral colony would be no more remarkable than feral mink.

The two jungle cats seem to have been unlucky, both apparently roadkill, but again they were in quite different parts of the country.

Two pumas. Felicity in Invernesshire and one in Leicestershire eight years later. Some breeding colony! We don't know anything about the second one, a fuller report might tell us of an escape from a zoo or something like that.

And two lions. If anyone would like to tell us about the breeding prides of lions roaming the savannah between Norfolk and Humberside, I'd love to hear about it.

So if that's your evidence, I think it's a bit on the incomplete side. Still, it's another 11 leads to follow up to see if you can find out what's behind these sketchy snippets. I'd submit that the pattern of the data suggests nothing more than sporadic escapes of captive specimens though, most of which didn't stay out for long.

Rolfe.
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:23 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You don't talk very pretty for the animal thread. Baboons are monkeys. It's like saying I'm partial to salmon and fish.
did you miss the posted link from san diego zoo then ?

Quote:
Leopards are carnivores and will eat any meat item they can find: monkeys, baboons, rodents, reptiles, amphibians, large birds, fish, antelope, cheetah cubs, and porcupines. At the San Diego Zoo, leopards are generally fed carnivore diet, with an occasional large bone, thawed rabbit, or sheep carcass.
or are you unclear why they are defining a predators favourite food sources in that order because of your already well displayed ignorance ?
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:34 PM   #113
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Here, I'll make you happy. The San Diego Zoo made special mention of baboons because they are really different than other monkeys. You see, baboons are bipeds.
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:35 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
I have the local gloucestershire news report that includes a police telephone number and a comment from the environmental health officer which is a lot more credible and is obviously the source for the earlier site
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co....l/article.html

and

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/wdp/l...l/article.html
which may go someway to explaining why government sites weren't blazing it across their front pages

Sorry, but this is sensationalist fluff typical of local news outlets on a slow day. The reporter or reporters are having a field day with this Danny person. Who appears to have a couple of screws loose, and to be the source and the impetus for most of it.

I note this actually refers to the Forest of Dean. Do we know how long these animals are supposed to have been in there? Because there is an interesting little fact about the Forest of Dean. In 2001 the wild ungulates in there (wild boar, deer) were infected with foot and mouth. The entire forest was cleared of cloven-hooved livestock. I rather think that any big cats in there might just have been noriced during that exercise, which obviously had to be very thorough, and if they were left behind, one wonders what they ate after that.

Obviously livestock have returned in the years since then, so maybe Danny is trying to tell us that the cats moved in within the last few years. I wonder where they came from?

Rolfe.
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:57 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
The bolded bit has now put you on my cat's hit list.You will not have a good time in "the stoopid monkey box o'doom"
You->

Hi Geezer, nice to meet you, Mate.

I was looking for a bite and I'm surprised it took so long to get one.

Please tell Puss that I was just kidding and I really like Burmese.



Cheers,

Dave
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Old 29th July 2009, 05:01 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
its because in the wild bipeds are a normal food source for leopards, and so they have developed strategies to kill them efficiently
http://img2.allposters.com/images/LIFPOD/1181157.jpg
while lions rely on quadrupeds

I hope you know that Leopards do not generally kill their prey, if larger than themselves, by sheer power. Instead, it has to do with stealthiness of the leopard, not the strength. Lesser ranked felinids (Compared to the lion and tiger) have been known to kill gorillas through sneak attacks.
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Old 29th July 2009, 05:18 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
far from it, I have far bigger issues with your attempt to dismiss something without examining the evidence, this is not a good sceptic attitude

please read this and attempt to understand my position

what part of " I am not satisfied by the credibility of the evidence so far presented, thats why I'm going to the source" did you not understand, I could translate it into babylonian if it helps ?

please feel free to poke holes in the flimsy evidence already presented, it should keep you busy for a few days

You're quite a common phenomenon around here, you know. Someone who comes along with an "open mind", "just asking questions", about stuff other people have been discussing and considering for a long time. Maybe even as part of their jobs, no less, rather than just an idle hobby.

So forgive me, but we're going to cut to the chase. We don't really fancy doing a country dance for ten pages, going back over old ground, just because someone else has come in at the ground floor.

This is little different from the umpteenth homoeopathy proponent who shows up telling us about how homoeopathy really helped her irritable bowel or something, and then gets all huffy when we don't spend the next week dispassionately weighing up the evidence for shaken-up water and sugar pills having a curative effect. And most of these very soon turn out not to be naive innocents, but deeply convinced homoeopaths intent on preaching.

I know DEFRA has no evidence of breeding populations of big cats in this country, and indeed evidence of absence. Nevertheless, I have to say I was a bit startled by the sheer amateurishness of that cobbled-together list. I thought you said that was evidence you were familiar with? I don't think you even read it. Three duplicated and one triplicated report. Most dates approximate at best, with some obvious guesses. Obvious mistakes. Why did you link to it when you hadn't looked at it sufficiently closely even to notice these things?

Consider a thing called prior probability. How likely is it that even one really big cat could survive in the wild without copious evidence of dead livestock around the landscape? Never mind a breeding population? There really is no possibility that anything that size could be supporting itself in Scotland - or most parts of England so far as I know. (I don't know enough about the old "Beast of Bodmin" story to have a firm opinion, but I'm sceptical of that one too.)

I agree it's possible for smaller cats, such as the leopard cat, to live off rodents and birds and leave lambs alone. However, why would DEFRA or anybody else conceal evidence of a population of something like that? It's paranoid fantasy. In addition, it's not 10kg leopard cats that are occupying Danny and his mates. The cryptozoologists are all trying to make the case for puma-sized animals.

Your scenario just lacks credibility across the board.

Rolfe.
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Old 29th July 2009, 05:22 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by makaya325 View Post
I hope you know that Leopards do not generally kill their prey, if larger than themselves, by sheer power. Instead, it has to do with stealthiness of the leopard, not the strength. Lesser ranked felinids (Compared to the lion and tiger) have been known to kill gorillas through sneak attacks.
This is ridiculous. You and Marduk talk about animals the same way. It's like internet boy blabber.

Leopards generally kill their prey with a bite(s) to the neck. Some prey may receive canine teeth through the skull as well. Strength is critical because they need to hang onto the prey until it succumbs to the neck bite. The claws are not used to slash or disembowel prey. They are used to grip the animal and prevent escape or personal injury.

Mak, stop using felinid. It's FELID. Leopards do prey on apes. They eat gorillas, chimps, orangs, and gibbons. They have killed and eaten humans.
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Old 29th July 2009, 05:24 PM   #119
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Quote:
Strength is critical because they need to hang onto the prey until it succumbs to the neck bite. The claws are not used to slash or disembowel prey. They are used to grip the animal and prevent escape or personal injury.
Strength of a Leopard ends when it is dealing with a 450 lb Silverback. The only way that they can kill large non-human primates is through sneak attacks.
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Old 29th July 2009, 05:25 PM   #120
Marduk
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You're quite a common phenomenon around here, you know. Someone who comes along with an "open mind", "just asking questions", about stuff other people have been discussing and considering for a long time. Maybe even as part of their jobs, no less, rather than just an idle hobby.
See I don't know what planet you are on but I have told you several times that I am gathering information from a government source using the freedom of information act. This may take some time. Til then youre just wasting your time talking crap about evidence I have stated several times is not good enough. I mean, what do I have to do here, write it in triplicate and hand it in to your supervisor at the funny farm ?
youre saying the same thing as I am but heres the difference
I am looking for better evidence, you have made your mind upon weak evidence and further to that your first post stated quite clearly that you didn't believe it because you'd never come across any big cat kills yourself
thats hardly credible, or correct is it, now you gonna give me some time to get some replies on this or do you want to talk more irrelevance to fill in the gaps


I mean for crying out loud, what does homeopathy have to do with this subject ?

Mod WarningStop the Rule 12 breaches and your bickering - if you can't respond in a civil and polite way do not post.
Posted By:Darat

Last edited by Darat; 30th July 2009 at 01:18 AM.
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