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Old 12th May 2012, 11:40 PM   #121
Halfcentaur
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
When I was in college a hypnotist came to our dorm for a performance. I was one of the lucky ones called on stage. I recall knowing I shouldn't be doing this silly things he was telling me to do but doing it anyway. It was a weird experience.
Once as a teenager I ate some blotter LSD and was convinced I was having a euphoric experience with subtle tracers and other visual artifacts before surmising it was just a piece of paper with no hallucinogenic chemicals and I was scammed out of five dollars several hours into the experience. I had worked myself up into a trip for about 30 minutes, but it was all based on confirmation bias and the suspicion I was sensing something and I was desperate to embrace the slightest sign of the substance working.

Another time earlier in my life at summer camp, while everyone around me was crying their eyes out and collapsing on the ground in the presence of the holy spirit, I felt a warm glow similar to the comforting sensation of a loved one being near me, and I began to cry my eyes out and fell to my knees in the presence of the holy spirit.

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Old 13th May 2012, 12:02 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Whatever you were trying to get at, your analogy made no sense to me. Were you arguing your friend believed something that wasn't true or your friend was faking it and just made up a lie they believed [x]?

What does any of that have to do with my assessment that my friend's reaction was extremely unlikely to have been faked for the reasons I've given.
This notion of something being "faked" is a spin on words I think is getting in the way of communication.



Quote:
Do you recall any dreams that seemed real to you?
Yes, sleep paralysis. I've had demonic malevolent entities in my bedroom trying to destroy my mind with psychic attacks and I could not move.

Quote:
What do you mean by don't occur like people think they do?
I think the majority of the times skeptics suggest hallucination as a probable explanation for the supernatural it is not needed. Most so called hallucinations are simply people mistaking things like shadows and sounds and something in the corner of their eye they never even perceived in the first place are misrepresenting them in their memory. They were not seeing things that were vivid and real before their eyes based on random misfires in the brain, but rather are distorting their memory of events. But this is a can of worms. I accept that there are dream states indistinguishable from the real world.


Quote:
The reaction to being on the ceiling was instantaneous, severe, and nothing anyone would have ever expected Teri to come up with if she was faking it or just going along. If you think you cannot judge a genuine reaction in a person to anything ever, how do you get through the day?
I don't see where the notion came into this that i don't think I cannot judge a genuine reaction in a person ever. I am capable of being wrong about things I feel are factual because I make mistakes. I am doing nothing more than implying you may have made a mistake in your judgement when you conclude that her reaction was the result of her actual vivid perception of reality literally being presented to her as if she was on the ceiling, rather than that she was subconsciously playing along and reacting as if she thought she would act if she were on the ceiling. I surmise her reaction was based on the limit of her imagination at that moment.

I understand that you judge differently, but the way you present your anecdote as fact is what I was questioning. But this is not healthy communication, I don't want to come across as nitpicking and challenging everything you say.


Quote:
They have been and some of the research is documented in the thread.
Than I am indeed ignorant of it and shall apologize if I have given you the impression I am being unfair. I'm not sure how to make the distinction between pretending you believe something and really being made to believe something without getting lost in the minutia of language.
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Old 13th May 2012, 07:52 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Read Mark's post again. Your friend believed she was hypnotized; his friend believed he was possessed. The similarities are apt.
I don't even HAVE a possessed friend. I made the post by just replacing a couple of words to point out how hollow the argument was.

"My friend was absolutely convinced that this happened, therefore the effect is real."

It's ridiculous.
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Old 13th May 2012, 10:03 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Halfcentaur View Post
... It's not easy to talk about hypnosis in skeptical contexts because we can't really say or agree on what the claim is in the first place. ....
There are legitimate studies of hypnosis. I think that is the place to start.
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Old 13th May 2012, 10:06 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I don't even HAVE a possessed friend. I made the post by just replacing a couple of words to point out how hollow the argument was.

"My friend was absolutely convinced that this happened, therefore the effect is real."

It's ridiculous.
You are leaving all the context out, therefore your assessment is flawed by cherry picking.
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Old 14th May 2012, 12:24 AM   #126
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I've stated this many times -- I wanted to be Kreskin when I was young. I learned stage hypnosis and studied studied therapeutic hypnosis. Anything those two things have in common is purely coincidental.

Here's the secret about hypnosis...

hehehe... anyone that finishes that sentence is a fool or a liar. Hypnosis is the ultimate placebo. It defies scientific study on an important level.


Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
It was the first of three sessions of which I never completed, deep in the back of my mind I had this weird feeling of being violated
Sounds to me more like alcohol therapy. (I went into this guy's room and the next day... )

Originally Posted by xtifr View Post
Once, at an SF convention, a guy offered to hypnotize my girlfriend. She was reluctant at first, but curious, so she finally agreed, as long as I was there to make sure nothing untoward happened. So we went to his room, along with a couple of other friends, and he spent an hour or so trying his thing, but it didn't work. I'm not sure if it's because she was still nervous (the guy was a little creepy) or she just wasn't a good subject (his theory) or because he wasn't very good at it (my theory) or if the whole thing is nonsense. But that's my closest encounter with hypnotism.
Holy Smokes, a stranger you met at a convention in San Francisco wanted to hypnotize your girlfriend in his hotel room and the two of you thought this was a legitimate demonstration of hypnosis. Let's say you two are naive and leave it at that.
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Old 14th May 2012, 01:22 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I see nothing about the science showing objective measurable changes in brain function under hypnosis that claims anything about it is supernatural.
I wasn't refering to you in particular on that part.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As for your claim it is just people willing to comply, I don't think my friend was complicit in freaking out over being on the ceiling looking down.
Pause. Think about it again for 1 minute.
Did she resist the urge to scream?
See the difference:

1)Doing something willingly
A: Come with me
B: Okay

2)Doing something unwillingly
A: Come with me
B: Don't want to
A beats B to unconcious and drags him along.

3)Being convinced to do something
A: Come with me
B: Don't want to
A: I'll give you candy
B: Okay

4)Being forced to do something
A: Come with me
B: Don't want to
A: Do it or I'll shoot
B: Okay

To which of the above does your friend seem closest to?
Obviously the answer is #1.
She never attempted to resist. There is a reason why hypnotists don't yell out their command on the first try. Because then you would have a clear indication that it failed or succeeded.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I do believe that was not something she agreed to perceive.
These stories always refer to stuff that seems "not like the person" but never actually is. Did a hypnotheist ever made a "true vegan" (true scotsman I know) eat meat? Did it make a "true striaght" turn gay?

No, just do the silly things most people do in drunken parties anyway.
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Old 14th May 2012, 07:23 AM   #128
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I have always found pain relief to be one of the most compelling proofs of of the effectiveness of hypnosis. This is an interesting video that seems to have the trappings of truth at least.

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I AGREE


I do not know first hand if the needle in the flesh, at that location, actually hurts or not. This is the test many hypnotists use. I never used it, preferring the safer method of pressing on the cuticle of the middle finger using my thumbnail.

Anyone with chronic pain should at least consider self hypnosis at some point. It can't hurt.
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Old 14th May 2012, 07:53 AM   #129
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
I wasn't refering to you in particular on that part.


Pause. Think about it again for 1 minute.
Did she resist the urge to scream?
See the difference:

1)Doing something willingly
A: Come with me
B: Okay

2)Doing something unwillingly
A: Come with me
B: Don't want to
A beats causes B to [enter an] unconcious [sic] [state] and drags him along B [begins dreaming with A suggesting the dream].
....

To which of the above does your friend seem closest to?
[It's not] Obviously the answer is #1.
She never attempted to resist. There is a reason why hypnotists don't yell out their command on the first try. Because then you would have a clear indication that it failed or succeeded. [I don't know what this means, we were all in the room close to each other, no stage was involved.]


These stories always refer to stuff that seems "not like the person" but never actually is. Did a hypnotheist ever made a "true vegan" (true scotsman I know) eat meat? Did it make a "true striaght" turn gay? ["Changing one's sexual nature differs from performing a sex act you wouldn't normally perform or feeling an attraction you wouldn't normally feel.]

No, just do the silly things most people do in drunken parties anyway. [Have you ever known a drunk person to hallucinate they were on the ceiling?]
As with Orphia's post, there seem to be a number of different definitions of 'willing' and similar adjectives operating in this thread. Your analogy to being drunk, however, indicates we disagree on the fundamental nature of the hypnotic state.

Am I a willing participant when I dream? Think I never dream something I really object to?
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:36 PM   #130
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OK, how about this approach...

Now this might be a stretch, but given that you've chosen to go by the handle "Skeptic Ginger," that would seen to indicate that you're generally critical about extraordinary claims and not given to accepting anecdotal evidence at face value.

What actual evidence do you have (besides her claims and your own casual observation of her behavior) that your friend actually entered a "trance" or other so-called "unconscious state," and honestly believed she was experiencing the situation described by the hypnotist?
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Old 19th May 2012, 12:21 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
What actual evidence do you have (besides her claims and your own casual observation of her behavior) that your friend actually entered a "trance" or other so-called "unconscious state," and honestly believed she was experiencing the situation described by the hypnotist?
Who said anything about being unconscious? And trances are easy--I can put myself into a mild trance without much effort, but I've never been hypnotized (and have been told I'm probably not a good candidate).

Some people seem to be saying that it's just a matter of belief, therefore it's not real, which seems to miss the point completely. What else could it possibly be, and how on earth does that make it "not real"?

Sure, there's plenty of utter nonsense associated with the popular idea of hypnosis, but at its core, insofar as it may be real, it seems to boil down to putting yourself in a state where you can believe things you might not believe otherwise. Which is all about the belief. You might as well say that there's no such thing as dreams, because you're really just asleep.

I just get the feeling that people are talking past each other on this thread, and that the apparent disagreement is entirely semantic in nature.

Maybe we need some definitions here. When you say there's no such thing as hypnotism, what, exactly, do you mean by hypnotism? Because I get the feeling you don't assign the same meaning to that word as I do. Are there some specific phenomena you disbelieve in? And do you find it possible that Skeptic Ginger might disbelieve in those phenomena as well, while still believing in something that could reasonably be called hypnotism? And if not, why not, specifically?
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:50 AM   #132
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
OK, how about this approach...

Now this might be a stretch, but given that you've chosen to go by the handle "Skeptic Ginger," that would seen to indicate that you're generally critical about extraordinary claims and not given to accepting anecdotal evidence at face value.

What actual evidence do you have (besides her claims and your own casual observation of her behavior) that your friend actually entered a "trance" or other so-called "unconscious state," and honestly believed she was experiencing the situation described by the hypnotist?
I'm hard core evidence belief driven. I've already described what I based my conclusion on but I'll repeat it.

It's not 'just my observation'. You imply by that characterization that all observations are of a single quality and all observations of an event count as a single observation rather than multiple observations at once. I don't look at anecdotes and observations as all equal homogeneous things.

My friend's reaction to my brother's suggestion to her that she was on the ceiling looking down was instantaneous, extreme, out of character for my friend, and out of character for someone who would be just going along with social pressure or whatever else people believe hypnosis is, and completely unexpected by all of us. Nothing about the reaction was consistent with 'faked', 'made up', or the result of imagined peer expectations. She didn't react in a severe way to the suggestion she was naked and we weren't and/or the suggestion we were naked and she wasn't (after more thought about this I can't recall now which way that suggestion went). To that she giggled and answered the question, why was she giggling.

Anyone who was there would understand how un-faked the reaction was.
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:07 AM   #133
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Getting back somewhat on topic, even if hypnosis were merely role playing, it's still "real" enough that advertisers and con men/demagogues like The Donald can use it to affect belief and behavior.


(EDIT: Sorry to resurrect an old thread; I meant to post this in a current thread that linked here.)

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Old 11th July 2018, 12:31 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
LOL, This always amuses me, no-one ever has a past life as an uneventful transylvanian turnip farmer, born, raised, farmed, possibly married and had kids, died.

Oh no, Everyone is the reincarnation of Rasputin, or Gandhi, or whatever.
Arnall Bloxham who "regressed" many hundreds of patients, and wrote a book on the subject, said very clearly that most regressions were about ordinary boring folk. He had selected the most interesting ones though for his book, but obviously, those who did not read this opening statement may get the false impression that most or all of the stories were interesting or about notable people from the past.

The claims by Bloxham have been the subject of sceptical enquiry, largely due to the claim that hypnotic "regression" is evidence of reincarnation. The case of "Rebecca" was debunked, as apparently her story under hypnosis was apparently very similar to an earlier historical play on the radio relating to persecution of the Jews in medieval York. I have read the book, and can understand how the sceptical analysis relating to Rebecca's account was easily debunked. However, one detail of her account mentioned that she and her children took refuge in an underground crypt in a church by York's Coppergate. The church in question at the time of her account did not have a crypt, and so this added to the evidence that this was a story of fiction. A few years later, when this same church underwent remedial repair work, a crypt was discovered. Co-incidence? Possibly.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:27 AM   #135
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I was supposed to be hypnotized at a party once. I felt nothing unusual. I was awake and aware.

The hypnotist told me that there was no such number as 5, and then asked me to count from one to five. I found that I could not say "five", just "ffffft".

Note: I think I would have been able to say "five" if I had to.

Several other times, I was supposed to be hypnotized by a stage hypnotist. Again I was perfectly awake and aware. However, I found it very easy to do whatever he suggested (nothing dangerous, objectionable, etc.), even if I would probably have been very embarrassed under other circumstances. Possibly the fact that I was one of about a dozen people doing the same thing helped.

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Old 12th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #136
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There is some support for hypnotherapy in the literature for certain conditions. Not strong support, but some. The hypnotic state is not currently well-understood so no one can say for certain that there is an altered state of consciousness involved or just simple relaxation and increased acceptance of suggestions.

There is absolutely zero support for stage hypnotism as an altered state of consciousness. If you read the manuals of stage hypnotism, you will find that it does not actually involve any "hypnotism," just a process of good subject selection (who will play along and not be an ass?), enhancing social pressure to perform, some deception and manipulation of normal physiologic responses. Some people just have really good imaginations along with a desire to perform and please an audience. That's all it is.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:04 PM   #137
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Hypnosis works every time the recipient wants it to.1





1: Except in any case involving medical practices.
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Old 14th July 2018, 12:55 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There is absolutely zero support for stage hypnotism as an altered state of consciousness.
Agreed, stage hypnotism, and, in my opinion, non stage hypnotism, are only championed by the woos.
Quote:
If you read the manuals of stage hypnotism, you will find that it does not actually involve any "hypnotism," just a process of good subject selection (who will play along and not be an ass?), enhancing social pressure to perform, some deception and manipulation of normal physiologic responses. Some people just have really good imaginations along with a desire to perform and please an audience. That's all it is.
I possess a small library on the subject. You are correct again. I've performed hypnotic inductions at small parties many times and had 10 out of 12 people sitting in a circle showing symptoms of a levitated wrist. I never performed a formal hypnosis show because I don't have the right personality to pull it off. The altered stare of consciousness in my audience always proceeded my performance. Our CIA tried to use hypnosis for nefarious purposes. Epic failure.

Given my credentials I believe I'm an appeal to authority around here. The altered state camp has woo in their sleeping bags.
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Old 14th July 2018, 02:05 PM   #139
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I've never been able to be hypnotized, but I average a couple of lucid dreams a year. Something in a dream will make me aware that I'm dreaming, and I'm awake in the dream, but the dream continues on. I've even tried reading in some of these dreams. The experience is odd.

Anyway, if lucid dreaming is a thing, I see no reason to doubt hypnosis is real. My wife was called up a hypnotist stage show at a local fair. She claims she was hypnotized, though has trouble describing to me what it was like.
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Old 14th July 2018, 02:15 PM   #140
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So many hand wavers, arguments from incredulity.

There are brain activity studies that show the altered state, it differs from meditation, and can't be reproduced by a person not hypnotized.

Stanford Medicine News: Study identifies brain areas altered during hypnotic trances
Quote:
To study hypnosis itself, researchers first had to find people who could or couldn’t be hypnotized. Only about 10 percent of the population is generally categorized as “highly hypnotizable,” while others are less able to enter the trancelike state of hypnosis. Spiegel and his colleagues screened 545 healthy participants and found 36 people who consistently scored high on tests of hypnotizability, as well as 21 control subjects who scored on the extreme low end of the scales.

Then, they observed the brains of those 57 participants using functional magnetic resonance imaging, which measures brain activity by detecting changes in blood flow. Each person was scanned under four different conditions — while resting, while recalling a memory and during two different hypnosis sessions.

“It was important to have the people who aren’t able to be hypnotized as controls,” said Spiegel. ...

Spiegel and his colleagues discovered three hallmarks of the brain under hypnosis. Each change was seen only in the highly hypnotizable group and only while they were undergoing hypnosis.
If only 10% of the population are “highly hypnotizable,” it's no wonder there are so many naysayers.
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Old 14th July 2018, 02:38 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So many hand wavers, arguments from incredulity.

There are brain activity studies that show the altered state, it differs from meditation, and can't be reproduced by a person not hypnotized.

Stanford Medicine News: Study identifies brain areas altered during hypnotic trances

If only 10% of the population are “highly hypnotizable,” it's no wonder there are so many naysayers.


Ok, so in a therapeutic setting, there may be something going on. I acknowledged that in my response. However, you shared a story about teenagers copying what they saw in a stage show. Do you really think there was an altered state of consciousness induced there? Or is it more likely that there was a bit of playing along involved more than anything else? I have cousins to this day tell me that they weren’t pushing the planchette of the Ouija board we messed with as kids; does this mean ghosts were pushing it?

Stage hypnosis, like the Ouija board, is a well understood thing. There is no hypnosis/spirituality involved, only people willing to play along and contribute to the illusion.


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Old 14th July 2018, 02:55 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't care what all these naysayers claim, hypnosis is real and I've seen it first hand.

...But Teri was another story. She went under easily. My brother told her she was naked and the rest of us weren't. She giggled but wasn't that freaked out. But then he told her she was on the ceiling looking down and she literally started screaming and kicking her legs. It was totally unexpected and out of character for anyone who was just faking it or going along like the Peter Popoff forehead push knock over. My brother had to bring her out of it right then.....
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Ok, so in a therapeutic setting, there may be something going on. I acknowledged that in my response. However, you shared a story about teenagers copying what they saw in a stage show. Do you really think there was an altered state of consciousness induced there?
Absolutely! Who would scream in a panic kicking their legs, who would even think of doing that? And why when my friend wasn't sophisticated enough to have planned and acted that would she have done that?

Obviously it's my anecdote and this is not the forum to buy into anecdotes. But I was there and she panicked, no faking about it.

And studies of brain changes supports that hypnosis is real.
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Old 14th July 2018, 02:59 PM   #143
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I imagine some of you think it's hard to hypnotize someone, that you'd have to be taught how to do it, blah blah blah.

It was incredibly easy. As long as you have a susceptible subject, it's easy.

You talk in a monotone, telling the person to imagine themselves floating in a cloud.

It only took a few minutes to talk a person into a trance (if they are susceptible).
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Old 14th July 2018, 04:38 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I imagine some of you think it's hard to hypnotize someone, that you'd have to be taught how to do it, blah blah blah.

It was incredibly easy. As long as you have a susceptible subject, it's easy.

You talk in a monotone, telling the person to imagine themselves floating in a cloud.

It only took a few minutes to talk a person into a trance (if they are susceptible).
Unlike mimicking a magician, mimicking a hypnotist might be a successful method to reproduce their show, except for the hypnotists that use whispers.

I'm going to tell a secret that may save a number of people here several hours of research. You can't get girls through hypnotism. Unfortunately many women are susceptible to getting excited about close up magic (They can't help themselves). I can share my research on this topic for a small fee.
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Old 14th July 2018, 04:46 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Absolutely! Who would scream in a panic kicking their legs, who would even think of doing that? And why when my friend wasn't sophisticated enough to have planned and acted that would she have done that?
You were teenagers, so I don't see why kicking and screaming is a particularly sophisticated reaction that needed to be planned out.

Quote:
Obviously it's my anecdote and this is not the forum to buy into anecdotes. But I was there and she panicked, no faking about it.
I don't see how you can rule out faking. It's the explanation that requires the least assumptions: 1)That a hypnotic state exists; 2)That your brother was capable of inducing a hypnotic state; 3)That your friend is among those who can be hypnotized; and 4)That suggestions while in the hypnotic state can cause realistic hallucinations VERSUS 1)She faked it

Quote:
And studies of brain changes supports that hypnosis is real.
At best, the studies show that hypnosis causes certain changes in fMRIs. There is no support for the idea that it can cause hallucinations, cause people to believe they are chickens, cause them to say "Quack" every time the hypnotist touches their ear, etc.
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Old 14th July 2018, 04:49 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You were teenagers, so I don't see why kicking and screaming is a particularly sophisticated reaction that needed to be planned out.
....
I'm not surprised you can't figure it out.

I was there, you weren't. You don't need to accept the anecdote, the evidence is the research I posted.
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:52 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not surprised you can't figure it out.

I was there, you weren't. You don't need to accept the anecdote, the evidence is the research I posted.
The evidence does not support your anecdote, though. The evidence shows that there is something happening in the brain. Do you think we should make the leap from <changes in the brain shown on fMRI> to <my hypnotized friend believed she was stuck to the ceiling and panicked>?
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Old 17th July 2018, 08:53 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The evidence does not support your anecdote, though. The evidence shows that there is something happening in the brain. Do you think we should make the leap from <changes in the brain shown on fMRI> to <my hypnotized friend believed she was stuck to the ceiling and panicked>?
Hypnosis has been discredited as a method of anesthesia. It's discredited pretty much completely except for entertainment. MRI's only confirm there is no difference between hypnotized and nonhypnotized people. Some intelligent people cling to beliefs that aren't true. I can link to the research if asked. I will ask those that disagree to show their prohypnosis links first.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:34 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So many hand wavers, arguments from incredulity.

There are brain activity studies that show the altered state, it differs from meditation, and can't be reproduced by a person not hypnotized.

Stanford Medicine News: Study identifies brain areas altered during hypnotic trances

If only 10% of the population are “highly hypnotizable,” it's no wonder there are so many naysayers.
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Hypnosis has been discredited as a method of anesthesia. It's discredited pretty much completely except for entertainment. MRI's only confirm there is no difference between hypnotized and nonhypnotized people. Some intelligent people cling to beliefs that aren't true. I can link to the research if asked. I will ask those that disagree to show their prohypnosis links first.
This is the link SG shared earlier in support of hypnosis. All it really says is that there were certain changes on an fMRI that were only observed in "highly hypnotizable subjects," while being hypnotized. I'd be interested in what you have.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:44 AM   #150
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I tried therapeutic hypnosis for intrusive thoughts when I was in my early twenties. It did absolutely nothing. Like, nothing. I felt like I was just sitting there talking to someone, same as before I was "hypnotized." In fact, I was a bit irritated by the obvious "authoritative but soothing" tone the therapist was trying to affect.

After a few sessions, I quit wasting his time and my money. He suggested that I am someone who cannot be hypnotized. He might be right. Guided meditations have produced a similar effect in me when I tried them (regular consciousness except for some mild irritation at feeling pandered to).

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Old 17th July 2018, 10:50 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The evidence does not support your anecdote, though. The evidence shows that there is something happening in the brain. Do you think we should make the leap from <changes in the brain shown on fMRI> to <my hypnotized friend believed she was stuck to the ceiling and panicked>?
I don't care what you believe.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:54 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Hypnosis has been discredited as a method of anesthesia. It's discredited pretty much completely except for entertainment. MRI's only confirm there is no difference between hypnotized and nonhypnotized people. Some intelligent people cling to beliefs that aren't true. I can link to the research if asked. I will ask those that disagree to show their prohypnosis links first.
That's not what the functional MRI showed.

It's no surprise it won't work for anesthesia, the trance is not that deep.

As for discredited, there's plenty of research that confirms it. I did post pro-hypnosis links. Most of the discrediting I've seen comes from incredulity and failure to use highly susceptible people.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:00 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I tried therapeutic hypnosis for intrusive thoughts when I was in my early twenties. It did absolutely nothing. Like, nothing. I felt like I was just sitting there talking to someone, same as before I was "hypnotized." In fact, I was a bit irritated by the obvious "authoritative but soothing" tone the therapist was trying to affect.

After a few sessions, I quit wasting his time and my money. He suggested that I am someone who cannot be hypnotized. He might be right. Guided meditations have produced a similar effect in me when I tried them (regular consciousness except for some mild irritation).
I can't be hypnotized either. Research on what one can do with hypnosis such as therapy is different from demonstrating the hypnotic trance does occur in some people. Like saying it doesn't work for anesthesia ergo there is no trance.

We've all been exposed to movie hypnosis where it supposedly works like mind control. It doesn't work like that. But you can cause a person to hallucinate if they are in that 10% (or whatever the actual %).
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:09 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't care what you believe.


Lol, you sound like my very Catholic aunt when we argue about religion...

You are making a claim, if you don’t want the claim challenged, perhaps you shouldn’t make it on a skeptics forum.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:09 AM   #155
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Sometimes one has to look at new evidence and re-evaluate old conclusions.

Science Daily: A hypnotic suggestion can generate true and automatic hallucinations
Quote:
A multidisciplinary group of researchers from Finland (University of Turku and University of Helsinki) and Sweden (University of Skövde) has now found evidence that hypnotic suggestion can modify processing of a targeted stimulus before it reaches consciousness. The experiments show that it is possible to hypnotically modulate even highly automatic features of perception, such as color experience. The results are presented in two articles published in PLoS ONE and International Journal of Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis....

... This result indicates that all hypnotic responding can no longer be regarded merely as goal directed mental imagery. It shows that in hypnosis it is possible to create a memory trace that influences early and preconscious stages of visual processing already about 1/10 second after the appearance of a visual target.
Here's one of the studies: PLOS one: A Preconscious Neural Mechanism of Hypnotically Altered Colors: A Double Case Study
Quote:
Abstract
Hypnotic suggestions may change the perceived color of objects. Given that chromatic stimulus information is processed rapidly and automatically by the visual system, how can hypnotic suggestions affect perceived colors in a seemingly immediate fashion? We studied the mechanisms of such color alterations by measuring electroencephalography in two highly suggestible participants as they perceived briefly presented visual shapes under posthypnotic color alternation suggestions such as “all the squares are blue”. One participant consistently reported seeing the suggested colors. Her reports correlated with enhanced evoked upper beta-band activity (22 Hz) 70–120 ms after stimulus in response to the shapes mentioned in the suggestion. This effect was not observed in a control condition where the participants merely tried to simulate the effects of the suggestion on behavior. The second participant neither reported color alterations nor showed the evoked beta activity, although her subjective experience and event-related potentials were changed by the suggestions. The results indicate a preconscious mechanism that first compares early visual input with a memory representation of the suggestion and consequently triggers the color alteration process in response to the objects specified by the suggestion. Conscious color experience is not purely the result of bottom-up processing but it can be modulated, at least in some individuals, by top-down factors such as hypnotic suggestions.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:10 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Lol, you sound like my very Catholic aunt when we argue about religion...

You are making a claim, if you don’t want the claim challenged, perhaps you shouldn’t make it on a skeptics forum.
It would be a mistake to conflate yourself with the whole forum.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:16 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's not what the functional MRI showed.



It's no surprise it won't work for anesthesia, the trance is not that deep.
But it’s deep enough to cause hallucinations in vision and proprioception?








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Old 17th July 2018, 12:24 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But it’s deep enough to cause hallucinations in vision and proprioception?
Yes.

Any reason you have a hard time with that?

You should read the study I posted above. It might make more sense to you then.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:31 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Absolutely! Who would scream in a panic kicking their legs, who would even think of doing that? And why when my friend wasn't sophisticated enough to have planned and acted that would she have done that?

Obviously it's my anecdote and this is not the forum to buy into anecdotes. But I was there and she panicked, no faking about it.

And studies of brain changes supports that hypnosis is real.
So do you think actors cannot reasonably portray panic without actually panicking? Is every scene of panic in a movie unconvincing? How often have you seen people panicking and screaming in terror in real life?
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Old 17th July 2018, 08:07 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes.

Any reason you have a hard time with that?

You should read the study I posted above. It might make more sense to you then.
First of all, that study is way too small to prove anything. Even so, they tested a very minor kind of hallucination: color perception. You are describing a much more detailed hallucination than that: not just visual, but perceptual and emotional as well. The study you cited does not support that kind of hallucination.

Now, I am not a scientist and I don’t understand all the jibber jabber about EEG readings and such, but i do have to wonder how they can eliminate the possibility of fakery. Did they do runs with people who were faking to compare readings? Like if they ran it with me, no hypnosis/hallucination and I called every square blue, would my EEG readings be somehow different?
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