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Old 10th April 2006, 02:41 PM   #121
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Maybe Claus has been letting Ian use his log in...

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Old 10th April 2006, 03:13 PM   #122
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Meant to post this a day ago. From the OED (SE)

Drumstick
Quote:
1. a. The stick having a terminal knob or padded head with which a drum is beaten.

b. Applied to a person. Obs.

2. transf. (in reference to shape.) a. The lower joint of the leg of a dressed fowl.

b. A popular appellation of the Knapweed (Centaurea nigra and C. Scabiosa).

c. ‘The colloquial name in the Madras Presidency for the long slender pods of the Moringa pterygosperma, the Horse-Radish Tree of Bengal.’

d. U.S. The stilt-sandpiper.

e. Cytology. An appendage of the nucleus of a polymorphonuclear leucocyte, composed of sex chromatin and characteristic of females.

3. Comb., as drumstick-shaped adj.; also drumstick-tree, Cassia Sieberiana, so called from the shape of its pods, known in Sierra Leone as monkey drumsticks.
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Old 10th April 2006, 03:27 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Spot the error.
> It was staring at me

Snakes have eyes on either side of its head. Hence, it does not "stare" at you.

> I had to have a cup of tea to calm down

Tea is a stimulant with caffeine and would wind her up.

> its little tongue was poking in and out.

A tongue would poke out but be pulled in. One does not "poke in" one's tongue.

> "I took out the bag and put it on my kitchen worktop while I untied it"

She lives on a space station, and you can't put things on other things with no gravity.
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Old 10th April 2006, 03:52 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
>
Snakes have eyes on either side of its head. Hence, it does not "stare" at you.
They most definitely can stare at you. It would be hard to judge the distance for striking without both eyes looking forward for a stereoscopic effect.
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Old 10th April 2006, 04:05 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
From the OED (SE)

Drumstick

1. a. The stick having a terminal knob or padded head with which a drum is beaten.

b. Applied to a person. Obs.

2. transf. (in reference to shape.) a. The lower joint of the leg of a dressed fowl.

b. A popular appellation of the Knapweed (Centaurea nigra and C. Scabiosa).

c. ‘The colloquial name in the Madras Presidency for the long slender pods of the Moringa pterygosperma, the Horse-Radish Tree of Bengal.’

d. U.S. The stilt-sandpiper.

e. Cytology. An appendage of the nucleus of a polymorphonuclear leucocyte, composed of sex chromatin and characteristic of females.

3. Comb., as drumstick-shaped adj.; also drumstick-tree, Cassia Sieberiana, so called from the shape of its pods, known in Sierra Leone as monkey drumsticks.
So, you're saying a leg's not a leg then, huh? Crazy.
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Old 10th April 2006, 07:26 PM   #126
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Quote:
The colloquial name in the Madras Presidency for the long slender pods of the Moringa pterygosperma, the Horse-Radish Tree of Bengal.
That's just such a lovely sentence I wanted to say it again.
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Old 10th April 2006, 07:44 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
That's just such a lovely sentence I wanted to say it again.
I think I've got some drama students using it for vocal warm-ups....
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Old 10th April 2006, 09:23 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
That's just such a lovely sentence I wanted to say it again.
That's a sentence?! ¿Dónde está el verbo?
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Old 11th April 2006, 03:26 AM   #129
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Didn't you know that a verb's not a verb?
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Old 11th April 2006, 03:33 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by delphi_ote View Post
That's a sentence?! ¿Dónde está el verbo?
It's implied!
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Old 11th April 2006, 03:59 AM   #131
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What a bizzare thread! Steve Grenard being informative and on-topic, Claus being, well, odd to say the least.
Sorry Claus but you haven't got a drumstick to stand on.


Thanks, I'll get my coat.
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Old 11th April 2006, 04:00 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Kiless View Post
antelopes in an Austin Martin?
That's Aston Martin [/pedantic git]
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Old 11th April 2006, 05:40 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Sorry Claus but you haven't got a drumstick to stand on.
It's like they say, that point has no stilt-sandpipers to stand on.
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Old 11th April 2006, 08:04 AM   #134
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I bet that if someone gave CFLarsen a good dictionary, it would really give him a shank up.
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Old 11th April 2006, 08:39 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Medb View Post
I bet that if someone gave CFLarsen a good dictionary, it would really give him a shank up.

Well, someone might be less of a terminal knob that way, or perhaps it could help with a padded head.
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Old 11th April 2006, 10:40 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
It's implied!
It implied. That interesting. I good writer now. Verbs for losers.
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Old 11th April 2006, 11:00 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Just bumping this thread, to note that although Claus has been posting elsewhere, he hasn't posted here for over 32 hours, and specifically not since Mahatma Kane Jeeves' masterly post. I'm sure he's not running away from the situation, so I'm just making a note.
To paraphrase a great American writer and humourist (with apologies):

Arguing with Claus Larsen on anything is like trying to teach a pig to sing...
...it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig.
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Old 11th April 2006, 12:04 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Spot the error.
How could she HAVE tea to calm herself down when the snake interrupted preparation of it!

Who has broccoli with tea?
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Old 11th April 2006, 02:32 PM   #139
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This is, without a doubt, the funniest thread I've ever read on the JREF. I can't believe I haven't been following it. This is better entertainment than anything on television.

Thank you folks. I haven't laughed like this in a while.

This thread HAS to be put in the Forum Spotlight. It's soooooo good.

(BTW, Claus, I love ya man, especially recently when you've been handing it to the Loose Change folks. But I do believe that on this thread you've had your drumsticks cut out from under you.)
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Old 26th April 2006, 05:02 AM   #140
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Sigh.

I gave up on this sterile bickering because I had to go to Scotland to see to my sick mother. With anyone else I'd just drop it. But when Claus prides himself in being so tenacious in the pursuit of people he sees as having failed to answer questions, and yet he's still failing to answer perfectly sensible questions in this thread, somehow it still seems relevant. Oh yes, and I do love some of the responses that were posted during my absence!

In another thread, Claus once more found himself accused of bullying, and retorted by boasting about his harrassment techniques. I reminded him of this unfinished business, asking yet again for the name and publication details of the dictionary he was using to support the disputed remark,
Quote:
What do you call the two protruding extremities that you walk on? "Legs" or "drumsticks" or "members"? All are allowed by the dictionary.
I also asked him again to explain what relevance that question had to the matter at hand, which was whether or not it was reasonable to describe the brille of a snake as "eyelids".

The reply as posted was:
Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Rolfe,

When a leg is not a leg (only it is, when it isn't, and then again...), then the thread has left for Wonderland.
Claus, meet Mr. Straw Man. Mr. Straw Man, meet Claus.

Obviously, we haven't progressed any, and the 100% tally of native English speakers ranked against him hasn't made Claus think even a tiny bit.

English is a language with words of varying specificity, which are used in the appropriate context depending on the specificity of the reference. I would assume Danish is similar. Claus, I will repeat once again the explanation.

"Drumstick" is a very specific word for a dismembered part of the leg of a cooked fowl. It would only be used in this very specific context. It would never be used to describe the leg of a human being (as it appeared from the wording of the question was what you were asking), but even when you finally revealed to us that in your idiosyncratic vocabulary the word "you" includes the Christmas turkey, no, a live fowl does not "walk" on drumsticks either. It only becomes a drumstick when it is cooked and butchered and served up on a plate.

You then appeared to be suggesting (in the most oblique way possible, the sort of obfuscation you deplore in your opponents) that you had in fact meant to ask, "which word might one use to describe the pelvic limb of a bipedal animal or bird?" (No, you can't blame the deficiencies of English for your being unable to frame the question understandably, I'm afraid you can only blame your own poor choice of wording.)

This seems to get us into the question of hierarchical sets. "Leg" describes the whole of the ambulatory limb (pelvic or pectoral), from the hip joint or shoulder to the ground. If that is what one is referring to, that is the word which would be used. A more specific word (such as "drumstick") would only be used in the specific situation where it was appropriate (in that case a particular serving of cooked poultry). "Member" is in fact a less specific word, in that it refers to all the limbs and indeed the male sexual organ as well - probably including wings, in appropriate species. So again, if one specifically meant an ambulatory limb, not an arm or a penis, one would choose the word "leg" as appropriate.

The lesson of this seems to be that when dealing with a hierarchy of specificity, one will chose the word which is most specific to the actual item being described, whether it is a whole leg or a part of a leg, or body proturberances in general.

Do you get that, Claus? Do you understand that retorts such as "When a leg is not a leg (only it is, when it isn't, and then again...)" to dismiss this explanation only serve to make you look evasive at best, and quite stupid at worst?

The question as posed ("What do you call the two protruding extremities that you walk on? "Legs" or "drumsticks" or "members"? All are allowed by the dictionary.") seems so extraordinary in this context that I still require Claus to reveal the name and publication details of the dictionary he was using to support this assertion, and to quote the entry or entries. Come on, Claus, you said "All are allowed by the dictionary", so you must be able to tell us which dictionary, and what it actually says.

Even so, I still despair of understanding what relevance this spectacular red herring actually had to the question of whether the brille of a snake may be described as eyelids. Therefore, could you also please explain that, Claus? How were you intending to use the answer to that question (whatever it might have been) to support your contention that brille come within the category of "eyelid"?

Rolfe.
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Old 26th April 2006, 05:29 AM   #141
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Just as a FYI the primary definition for leg from the OED:

Quote:

I. The limb.

1. a. One of the organs of support and locomotion in an animal body; esp. one of the two lower limbs of the human body; in narrower sense, the part of the limb between the knee and foot.
abdominal or false leg, one of the fleshy legs which support the abdomen of some insects and which disappear in the perfect insect. Barbados leg: see BARBADOS. See also BLACK-LEG(S n.

b. esp. with reference to the use of the legs in standing, walking, running, etc.

...snip...
Nowhere in any of the definitions is there a reference to "drumstick".

From an on-line thesaurus:

Quote:
http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=leg

Main Entry: leg
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: appendage
Synonyms: brace, column, lap, limb, member, part, pile, pole, portion, post, prop, section, segment, shank, stage, stake, stilt, stretch, stump, support, upright
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Again no mention of drumstick.
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Old 26th April 2006, 05:35 AM   #142
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Which is why I want Claus to post the details of the dictionary entry or entries he claims allow whatever-the-hell-it-is-he-means about members and drumsticks. This isn't an esoteric request, Claus. You said, "all are allowed by the dictionary". Which dictionary, exactly? Which entries?

I also want to know in what way he thinks any answer to his question might be used to illuminate the matter of whether or not the brille of the snake can be included in the category of "eyelids".

These are straightforward questions, asked (and evaded) many times now.

Rolfe.
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Old 26th April 2006, 05:41 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just as a FYI the primary definition for leg from the OED: ...
Nowhere in any of the definitions is there a reference to "drumstick".
From an on-line thesaurus:...
Again no mention of drumstick.
Try a reverse lookup on those - "drumstick" leads to "leg" in both dictionary and thesarus.
Admittedly, in the dictionary, its only the lower part of the cooked leg of a fowl - but leg does get a mention.
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Old 26th April 2006, 05:53 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by kieran View Post
Try a reverse lookup on those - "drumstick" leads to "leg" in both dictionary and thesarus.
Admittedly, in the dictionary, its only the lower part of the cooked leg of a fowl - but leg does get a mention.
Please ignore my last post - I have now read this thread and realise that:
  1. I have put my foot in it
  2. I don't want to get involved in this cat fight
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Old 26th April 2006, 05:56 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by kieran View Post
Try a reverse lookup on those - "drumstick" leads to "leg" in both dictionary and thesarus.
Admittedly, in the dictionary, its only the lower part of the cooked leg of a fowl - but leg does get a mention.
Yes. It's hierarchical. A "member" is practically any body protuberance, including but not limited to limbs. A "leg" is the whole of an ambulatory limb. A "drumstick" (in this context) is a particular severed part of the leg of a fowl, prepared for eating.

One uses the appropriate term, depending on the context.

Claus's only reply to this, however, has been variants on
Quote:
I see. A leg is not a leg.
Claus, please name the dictionary (with publication details) you were using to support your assertion "all are allowed by the dictionary", and quote the relevant entry or entires.

Please explain in what way any answer at all to your remarkably badly-expressed question might be used to illuminate the matter of whether the brille of a snake might be included in the category of "eyelids".

And when you've done that, please also explain why you appear to find Wikipedia so compelling in this case as to negate all the more reputable references others posted, when in the past you have been very scathing about Wikipedia and preferred the more reputable sources.

Rolfe.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 26th April 2006 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 26th April 2006, 05:59 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by kieran View Post
Please ignore my last post - I have now read this thread and realise that:
  1. I have put my foot in it
  2. I don't want to get involved in this cat fight
But did you enjoy the thread?

Sometime a good cat fight can be fun.

Rolfe.
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:05 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I also want to know in what way he thinks any answer to his question might be used to illuminate the matter of whether or not the brille of the snake can be included in the category of "eyelids".
For those of you who, like me, weren't sure what a brille was...

Quote:
All snakes and those lizards without eyelids
possess a permanent immovable transparent membrane
totally covering the exposed anterior portion
of the eye. This structure is the reptilian spectacle
or brille. This structure is thought to have
evolved from either fusion of the eyelids, or
less popularly the nictitating membrane. The
primary purpose of the spectacle is protection.
from

http://www.iovs.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/7/587


Carry on!
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:10 AM   #148
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Quote:
I see. A leg is not a leg.
Actually, if we are to nitpick this (and it is aboundantly obvious that we are), a leg can be more than a leg. For instance, we can talk of the leg of a voyage. Likewise, we are talking about somebody "being on his last legs", quite without implying that he ever had more, or ever will have less than, two.

So, all in all, I think that there is some leg-pulling going on here.

Hans
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:15 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But did you enjoy the thread?

Sometime a good cat fight can be fun.

Rolfe.
Shh - I'm trying to close the door quitely as I leave ... tippy-toeing each step of the way ...

(It's a bit of a giggle, but nothing to be gained apart from by the big egos. Move along now, nothing to see here ...)

Doh - I just had to blurt it out.

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Old 26th April 2006, 06:16 AM   #150
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Anyway, I think this thread had been throughly derailed by, well you kow who you are. May I point out that practically no attention have been given to the real core of the matter: Broccoli.

Does broccoli have legs?

Hans
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:16 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Actually, if we are to nitpick this (and it is aboundantly obvious that we are), a leg can be more than a leg. For instance, we can talk of the leg of a voyage. Likewise, we are talking about somebody "being on his last legs", quite without implying that he ever had more, or ever will have less than, two.

So, all in all, I think that there is some leg-pulling going on here.

Hans
Yet, at the end of the day, a leg is not a leg. Only when it is.

Alice in Wonderland. I see a lot of head-choppin'....
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:19 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Yet, at the end of the day, a leg is not a leg. Only when it is.

Alice in Wonderland. I see a lot of head-choppin'....
At the end of the day, this post is not a post. Only when it is.

Kevin Costner starred in Water World.
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:20 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Anyway, I think this thread had been throughly derailed by, well you kow who you are. May I point out that practically no attention have been given to the real core of the matter: Broccoli.

Does broccoli have legs?
It's very nice with chicken drumsticks.
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:30 AM   #154
TimmyBerry
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Concerning snakes: I do not believe that anyone has mentioned legless lizards yet. They look quite similar to snakes, but do have eyelids.
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:34 AM   #155
SteveGrenard
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Rolfe wrote:

"Yes. It's hierarchical. A "member" is practically any body protuberance, including but not limited to limbs. A "leg" is the whole of an ambulatory limb. A "drumstick" (in this context) is a particular severed part of the leg of a fowl, prepared for eating."

I think the only criteria for a leg being a drumstick is that it's dead [fowl]
meat. It does not necessarily have to be disarticulated nor does it have to be cooked although it conserves its designation under those two situations. I have seen packages of disarticulated chicken legs called drumsticks and I have seen legs, cooked or raw, but still articulated
called drumsticks. I have also seen them articulated to thighs, being "thigh portions with drumsticks" attached. I don't think anyone, outside of one person here, has ever seen either a living human, other organism or a bird [fowl] walking around on drumsticks.

So like this thread, drumsticks are simply a dead issue, no I mean tissue.

Last edited by SteveGrenard; 26th April 2006 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 26th April 2006, 06:37 AM   #156
SteveGrenard
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Originally Posted by TimmyBerry View Post
Concerning snakes: I do not believe that anyone has mentioned legless lizards yet. They look quite similar to snakes, but do have eyelids.
Eyelids are one of the things that help set legless lizards apart from snakes. Cranial structure is also different and the difference in outward appearance between a snake and a legless lizard's head is very apparent. There are geckos without eyelids, however. They regularly clean off and moisten their eyes with their tongues. You can see an example of this in one of the Geico gecko TV commercials (shown in the U.S.). There are probably photos on the web of this behavior.

Last edited by SteveGrenard; 26th April 2006 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 26th April 2006, 07:05 AM   #157
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Well, if Claus has his tongue in his cheek, maybe he can let the rest of us in on the joke. Because so far it appears like an extraordinarly badly-worded question, with no obvious relevance to the matter under discussion. Leading to yet another example of Claus refusing to admit he might have been in any way in the wrong.

He attacks other posters for refusing to answer direct questions posed by him, and repeatedly demands explanations based on his own narrow (often straw-mannish) interpretation of what he thinks the other poster meant. He always insists that his own interpretation of what they meant is the correct one, not any subsequent explanation they might provide. And he's very very belligerent about it all.

And yet here he won't even tell us the details of the dictionary references he was relying on, or explain the relevance of his question to the point at issue.

Bah, humbug.

Rolfe.
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Old 26th April 2006, 07:08 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Yet, at the end of the day, a leg is not a leg. Only when it is.

Alice in Wonderland. I see a lot of head-choppin'....
Yes, Alice in Wonderland. Like Humpty Dumpty, Claus decides what words mean, and that's his position.

Claus, what's so hard? Tell us the dictionary you were using, and quote the entries that supported your assertion that "all are allowed by the dictionary".

Explain how whatever answer you might have received to the question might have illuminated the point as to whether or not a snake's brille might be categorised as eyelids.

Rolfe.
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Old 26th April 2006, 07:50 AM   #159
Mahatma Kane Jeeves
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Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Yet, at the end of the day, a leg is not a leg. Only when it is.

Alice in Wonderland. I see a lot of head-choppin'....
Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Already explained several times. You want to rewrite the English dictionary, so you don't have to engage in debate, provide evidence or do anything.

Except bitch and whine.
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Old 26th April 2006, 09:22 AM   #160
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12oz package of fresh broccoli: $1.99

3 piece KFC value meal: $3.95

20 minutes of original Internet entertainment with simultaneous English lessons: Priceless





One caveat: My drumsticks fell asleep from sitting so damn long!
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