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19th August 2013, 02:33 AM | #1201 |
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Sure there can. Though I meant to say a valid argument, which is a weaker claim. (I have a bad habit of mixing the two up.) Still, it's easy to make sound arguments about native legends and beliefs. And even easier to make a valid one, which may or may not be sound.
But your argument isn't even valid, let alone sound.
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And I haven't even gotten into analyzing whether you successfully managed to defeat the straw man, let alone the original argument. I tend to think no, but I haven't really looked into it, since I'm not a participant in this debate. I'm just pointing out that one of the participants (you) has gone off the rails. You can do better. I know you can do better. I could argue your position better, and I honestly don't care whether bigfoot exists, and think that anyone who cares either way is a bit bonkers. |
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19th August 2013, 03:33 AM | #1202 |
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What the natives have been describing is about as close to Bigfoot as one could get without using a time machine to study the Bigfoot of today. The claim that there isn't a connection of some sort is false. If you read Albert Ostman's encounter, he first talks about the Aboriginal People's belief in Bigfoot. So whether bigfoot is real or not, the connection is there.
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19th August 2013, 03:50 AM | #1203 |
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Much better. Chris should take lessons from you, OS. Of course, you still resort to argument by authority, but that's not necessarily a fallacy. It depends on who this Albert Ostman guy is. You have almost, or maybe even completely, made a valid argument. That is to say, your conclusions follow from your premises. Which leaves us only needing to address the question of whether the premises are correct.
(I don't believe they are, but at this point, that's almost a side issue.) eta: in fact, I think there was a whole earlier thread debunking the premise in great detail. But I'm not sure I can find it at this point. In any case, I'm still pleased to see that we're back to valid arguments. |
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19th August 2013, 03:52 AM | #1204 |
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Provide some examples in the appropriate thread then. The only "connection" is one fabricated by modern Bigfoot enthusiasts.
If you read Leviticus, those who worship idols should be put to death. Why do you find Albert Ostman's encounter credible? Are you still on the Bigfoot kidnapping people kookery? |
19th August 2013, 06:54 AM | #1205 |
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Albert Ostman's credibility doesn't really have anything to do with it because whether he was being honest or just made his story based on Native legend, the connection is there. It's the same thing with Roger Patterson and some of the other researchers back then. They were all too familiar with Native American legend before Bigfoot went viral in 1967.
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19th August 2013, 07:02 AM | #1206 |
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So it doesn't matter if Bigfoot exists... If everyone continues the same sorts of tales then we have got something to grab onto.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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19th August 2013, 07:04 AM | #1207 |
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19th August 2013, 07:11 AM | #1208 |
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19th August 2013, 07:26 AM | #1209 |
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OS, please look through this thread: ( referenced by EHocking earlier )
Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look. If you have questions or arguments for what is presented there, then please address them in the thread. We will all be ready to continue the discussion there.. |
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Maybe later.... |
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19th August 2013, 07:52 AM | #1210 |
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Hmmm, so some of us deny the Native American connection because we're worried it'll support the existence of Bigfoot?
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19th August 2013, 07:54 AM | #1211 |
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A myth based on legends. Who woulda thunk it?
The amazing thing is that anyone would try to turn this into evidence for the existence of bigfoot. |
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19th August 2013, 08:09 AM | #1212 |
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Hmmm, so do some of us deny the near universal boogeyman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman) connection because we're worried it will support the existence of a boogeyman in the closet?
The only thing that will support the existence of bigfoot would be a bigfoot and there seems to be an extreme paucity of said crytpid. |
19th August 2013, 08:15 AM | #1213 |
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19th August 2013, 08:17 AM | #1214 |
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No some of us are actually currious enough to go look at the research and the actual stories, as opposed to accepting a biased uninformed opinion about the subject. Turns out when you actually do a bit of research
Native American & bigfoot - all over the map, most complete nonsequitors crammed into their anything is bigfoot mold by believers! read it! |
19th August 2013, 08:18 AM | #1215 |
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I give you tokoloshe.
The southern and eastern African version of the boogeyman is used mainly to scare children into not disobeying parents, that sort of thing. It is a ghostly version of a heinously ugly human, and is said to snatch children away and eat them in the night. I found it as far north as southern Tanzania, but it may be even more widespread than that. And as far as I know, there are no claims of BF like creatures anywhere in the region. So, it is perfectly possible to have native legends/ stories and not mistake them for support for the existence of hairy wild-men. Mike |
19th August 2013, 08:35 AM | #1216 |
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What is the connection between African boogeyman stories, and Bigfoot Science's claim that Native American traditions and myths support the existence of Bigfoot ( in North America ) ?
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19th August 2013, 08:42 AM | #1217 |
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Neither one is reliable evidence for the existence of the creature that's being described.
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19th August 2013, 08:49 AM | #1218 |
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No, the point is that any presumed Native American "connection" to the modern bigfoot is as tenuous as a presumed connection to European wildmen.
No one disputes that cultures all over the world have mythologies that feature some kind of wild man/beasts living in some remote backwater and scaring the crap out of people when a good morality lesson is needed by someone in the tribe. The "connection" falls apart when one actually examines those mythologies and has a really hard time linking them to anything that looks/acts like Patty. |
19th August 2013, 09:57 AM | #1219 |
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No. Some of us deny the connection to Bigfoot because it is tenuous at the best. And even if a firm connection could be made, it's still special pleading to say that it's evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.
This same reasoning could be used to support the existence of any number of mythical creatures that seem to have a near universal presence, such as dragons. Why should Bigfoot get any special treatment? |
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19th August 2013, 03:38 PM | #1220 |
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You are deliberately avoiding the actual point being made here and in that thread.
No one is denying the existence of such stories, myths and legends. The purpose of the thread was to determine the plausibility that any of these stories are in any way related to a native culture trying to describe encounters with bigfoot. You will note that the OP took pains to address the stories most touted as evidence by bleevers, and soundly debunked bf as a feasible origin. While you are quite welcome to ignore or avoid that discussion, you are not in a position to dismiss it and the conclusions drawn in it as merely posters opinions. BF science was not employed in that thread, each and every point made was rigorously interrogated and defended. To describe it as "opinion swapping" is merely denial. Which would be amusing if it were not hypocritical. Bleevers are always touting the "open your mind" line. |
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19th August 2013, 04:12 PM | #1221 |
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Yeah, that open your mind stuff means believe the crap they make up. These folks, if they are to be believed, could not only open minds, but in fact blow them.
Every single "habituator" has the ability to produce unambiguous objective evidence; all these folks (NAWAC, et al) that claim to see/ interact with bigfoot on a regular basis could do the same. Notice all they ever produce are excuses, though an abundance of those. |
19th August 2013, 06:47 PM | #1222 |
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It's left open to opinion. Opinions based on opinions of others. Nothing, that is nothing is provable beyond opinion in that opening post.
I freely admit to having no background in Native American culture and language studies and one would have to eliminate every single possibility of Bigfoot or hairy men within each culture and language back to the contemporary. You can't. It's impossible to do because you can only base your belief on an opinion that "What they really meant was this:" etc. About every single culture and language. Knowledge of the unknowable isn't allowed into proof of fact, again it's only opinion. |
19th August 2013, 06:53 PM | #1223 |
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The word is woo.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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19th August 2013, 07:49 PM | #1224 |
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First a bit of context.
Here is a link to many colorful Native American folktales with such supernatural characters as the Vampire Hermit, the Wampus Cat and Wishpoosh the monster beaver. Here is a host of Native ghost tales, including that of Coyote and the origin of death. This wiki page covers the Thunderbird of Passamaquoddy belief. And this one is about the spiked river panther or "underwater wild-cat" of the northeastern tribes. Here is the hairy man / hairy family pictograph at Painted Rock, California. This particular page presents a fairly persuasive argument that the figures are meant to be bigfoot(s). Let's say they are. Let's allow that all of these various "wild-men" stories are meant to be the same iconic primate we call bigfoot. And...? What, exactly? As anyone can read for themselves from the above and countless other links on-line, American tribal folklore is rife with elemental spirit beings, talking animals, half-people/half-beasts, ghosts in many permutations, and fantastical animals with mystical powers. It doesn't follow that any of those creatures is real. Chris will ignore this or sidestep it. |
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19th August 2013, 07:50 PM | #1225 |
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Ah. So you're going to go with denial rather than discussion.
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The fact is that the opinions on that thread are at least informed. Unlike your uninformed dismissal.
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The focus in that thread were stories that bf proponents specifically call up as evidence that native americans enganged with bf.
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Remember, only one such story with falsify the null hypothesis assumed in the OP of that thread. You keep stating that it is common knowledge that native people have stories that relate to bf-type encounters. Burden of proof of that statement is on you, not me. |
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19th August 2013, 08:23 PM | #1226 |
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The mistake you're making is that you think I'm onboard with every Bigfoot proponent and their views. I'm not.
If you ask me to accept that no Native peoples ever had any word or description or legend of a "hairy man" or man beast type hairy thingy, I cannot. Simple huh. |
19th August 2013, 08:23 PM | #1227 |
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I'm not sure who is the bigger fool. You for being a Bigfoot knower or a skeptic that attempts to explain to you that Bigfoot doesn't exist.
I might have to toss a coin. |
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19th August 2013, 08:27 PM | #1228 |
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19th August 2013, 08:37 PM | #1229 |
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19th August 2013, 08:38 PM | #1230 |
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19th August 2013, 08:56 PM | #1231 |
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You know, I've noticed you guys like to use words like: Strawman, fallicy, etc. Do you normally use those words often in every day life? I don't.
Fact is, I'm not interested in debate of an unknowable topic. It's unimportant to me either way. If you believe that all Native Americans never had any sort of legend of hairy folks, that's great. I think some may have, I also think other native peoples from around the World shared similar beliefs as evidenced in Tibet. But that's as far as we can ever get. You have your opinion based on your research and findings and I have mine. I'm not knocking your ability, it's just there's no path to take from here that leads to fact for either side. |
19th August 2013, 09:10 PM | #1232 |
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You may not use the words, but you certainly use the argument.
Here it is again...
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But there you go, arguing against it anyway....
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Yet it doesn't stop you claiming your opinion is more trusted that others that are better informed of the subject than you.
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You haven't done any research.
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Your continued denial says more about the integrity of your approach to the subject than it does about mine. |
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19th August 2013, 11:36 PM | #1233 |
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No, but in everyday life, I also don't run into a lot of people who fervently believe in aliens or ghosts or bigfootsies. (Or at least, have the sense not to sit around trying to convince others to believe in aliens or ghosts or bigfootsies.) Also, a large majority of people I know don't routinely resort to logical fallacies in order to try to prove the preposterous, so it doesn't come up that often. Around here, though....
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20th August 2013, 11:46 AM | #1234 |
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20th August 2013, 04:10 PM | #1235 |
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And yet this doesn't stop them killing Cross River Gorillas.
http://crossrivergorilla.org/index.p...rilla-killings That said, this is a tantalising point that is repeated through the literature, For example, throughout much of the Cross River gorilla range in Cameroon, there is a traditional prohibition on the sale of gorilla meat, and hence hunters have not sought out this species. Similarly, people in the Kagwene Mountains and Bechati-Fossimondi forest region of Cameroon, and some people on the Obudu Plateau in Nigeria, have a traditional ban on eating gorillas. but without an explanation as to the reason behind the tradition. Ah, here we have it. Traditional Knowledge Systems and the Conservation of Cross River Gorillas: a Case Study of Bechati, Fossimondi, Besali, Cameroon. As far as I can tell, this sentence, "gorillas are used by local people as totem animals", is about as close as you get to an explanation of their belief regarding gorillas. Note that this is NOT the people thinking they are "hairy men" ; "Although gorillas were the main focus of these totemic kinship beliefs, some respondents also mentioned the use of chimpanzees, monkeys, leopards, brush-tailed porcupines, and owls as animal totems." A totem animal then. Basically a kinship is recognised, but they are never thought of as anything but animals. Seems the line about "hairy men" and gorillas, in this case, is total invention. ETA: This relationship is being researched because of the potential to use native tradition, belief and taboo to help with gorilla conservation. |
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20th August 2013, 04:12 PM | #1236 |
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This is a discussion forum, so I'm inviting you to continue the discussion you started in citing tribal legends.
You've been trying to use Native stories of hairy or wild or half-human people as support for your belief in bigfoot. Some of us here are trying to show you there are many supernatural beings and non-existent animals in Native folklore. The "wild-man" is one of these. It doesn't mean it's a real being. Do you see my point or don't you? |
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20th August 2013, 04:37 PM | #1237 |
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So, are we to accept that an ancient race of Cat People once existed throughout Africa during Egypt's heyday, Chris?
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20th August 2013, 04:43 PM | #1238 |
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I'm not really sure why you need me to participate in a subject I have no interest in?
You make somewhat desperate responses to my post above but you seem to have left out the most important point of my post: "Fact is, I'm not interested in debate of an unknowable topic. It's unimportant to me either way." As I said before I freely admit I have no credentials in Native American culture or languages, if you do I'm happy for you. My point about the locals in Tibet acknowledging the Yeti documented back to 326 BC is commonly available on the NatGeo site, and doesn't require credentials to read. So in the long run I would guess that's one fly in the ointment for you to overcome. If your point is meant only to apply to Native American cultures, then great, that would take care of the Tibetan Yeti fly. If you wish to convince me that all Native American cultures and languages never had any legends or words for what we consider Bigfoot, you can't. The best you could do is base a theory on your opinion and the opinions of others. I'm sorry but opinion doesn't prove anything either way. |
20th August 2013, 04:45 PM | #1239 |
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My view is that the Native's Wildman tales, like those of the Aboriginal Aussies etc, were molded into modern BF by Westerners.
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20th August 2013, 04:51 PM | #1240 |
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Really, what (insert any cryptid or spook here) comes down to, is myth-making and folklore. Two very real and beautiful things.
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