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Tags Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 31st July 2017, 10:17 AM   #881
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Where is the proof that the BCA knew where the incident took place.
Do you mean the incident that Damond reported in the 911 call and said was going on outside the premises, or the shooting of Damond by a police officer outside the premises? In either case, the clue is in the question.

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Old 31st July 2017, 10:39 AM   #882
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The cops who submitted the warrant request knew all of that.

So they were intentionally misleading the judge to get a bogus search warrant?

Sounds like perjury to me.

We'll see if the judge goes after them for it.
The only witnesses at that time were the two cops. Only one agreed to be interviewed by the BCA. What was left in the alley and one cops story is all that could be known.

At the very least, I'd want to retrace the steps of the victim to see if it matches with the officers story (and you only have one story) and look to see if she took any photos/video on her cell phone in those minutes.
No body cam, no dash cam, no audio and a claim of a noise or a "car slap" looks very fishy.

The BCA investigators do not report to the chief of police, they report their findings to the county attorney, without recommendation. They are supposed to act independently.
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Old 31st July 2017, 11:16 AM   #883
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Do you mean the incident that Damond reported in the 911 call and said was going on outside the premises, or the shooting of Damond by a police officer outside the premises? In either case, the clue is in the question.

Dave
Do you know what the BCA is? Seems like no.
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Old 31st July 2017, 11:58 AM   #884
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
The only witnesses at that time were the two cops. Only one agreed to be interviewed by the BCA. What was left in the alley and one cops story is all that could be known.

At the very least, I'd want to retrace the steps of the victim to see if it matches with the officers story (and you only have one story) and look to see if she took any photos/video on her cell phone in those minutes.
No body cam, no dash cam, no audio and a claim of a noise or a "car slap" looks very fishy.

The BCA investigators do not report to the chief of police, they report their findings to the county attorney, without recommendation. They are supposed to act independently.

They don't need to go into the house and search to retrace her steps in the alley, and the police already had her phone.

The BCA had a statement from one of the two cops there. One should be enough, along with the 911 calls and the dispatch chatter for them to be able to figure out that there was no reasonable probable cause to search the Damond home.

It is apparent from the way the warrant application was worded that they knew damn well that there was no reasonable probable cause to search the Damond home.
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Old 31st July 2017, 12:30 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Do you know what the BCA is? Seems like no.
Does the nature of the BCA change the facts of the case? Either they had access to 911 records and the statement of one of the cops, in which case they had good reason not to suspect Damond of any crime or of there being a victim of crime in her house, or they didn't, in which case how the hell did they know which house to go fishing in?

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Old 31st July 2017, 12:59 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Key word highlighted. They had evidence that a person phoning from the premises had reported a possible crime in progress outside the premises, and that the person calling in the report had subsequently been shot dead by a police officer, also outside the premises. None of this points to the probability of evidence of a crime committed by the deceased (which is what, let's remember, the warrant specifically authorized to be searched for), or of the presence of a crime victim (which is, let's remember, only known to be on the warrant for the search of the surrounding area, not of the premises, but that you have decided must have been the primary purpose of the premises search despite a complete absence of evidence in this respect) inside the premises. How, then, is a search based on a complete lack of relevant evidence justified as arising from a reasonable belief?

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Isn't line one if the warrant "body fluids"? How about this scenario- She has regrets after having sex w/ her shack up. Calls in a rape in progress outside. Goes outside to wait for the cops to come and find her, the rape-ee. Cops drive past, to the end of the alley, without seeing "Her Victimness", shes goes all "passionate" all over the car.

The warrant would be for evidence of a false police report. Shades of a particular "Jackie" & a Rolling Stone report.
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Old 31st July 2017, 01:02 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Isn't line one if the warrant "body fluids"? How about this scenario- She has regrets after having sex w/ her shack up. Calls in a rape in progress outside. Goes outside to wait for the cops to come and find her, the rape-ee. Cops drive past, to the end of the alley, without seeing "Her Victimness", shes goes all "passionate" all over the car.

The warrant would be for evidence of a false police report. Shades of a particular "Jackie" & a Rolling Stone report.
????? So how does that at all impact on the legality of the shooting?
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Old 31st July 2017, 01:19 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Isn't line one if the warrant "body fluids"? How about this scenario- She has regrets after having sex w/ her shack up. Calls in a rape in progress outside. Goes outside to wait for the cops to come and find her, the rape-ee. Cops drive past, to the end of the alley, without seeing "Her Victimness", shes goes all "passionate" all over the car.

The warrant would be for evidence of a false police report. Shades of a particular "Jackie" & a Rolling Stone report.
I thought the standard to be followed was "We have reasonable suspicion that the premises we wish to search may hold evidence that will assist our investigation into a specific crime," not "We have managed successfully to dream up a scenario based on a staple story of a teenage romance comic that might make people think a stupid accident was in some vague sense justifiable." In your world is there any such thing as an unreasonable search?

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Old 31st July 2017, 02:02 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The BCA had a statement from one of the two cops there. One should be enough, along with the 911 calls and the dispatch chatter for them to be able to figure out that there was no reasonable probable cause to search the Damond home.
If you are investigating an officer-involved shooting, then the statement of one of the officers is not enough. There is an inherent conflict of interest there. Maybe you get the truth, maybe you don't.

If they did manage to get and review all you listed above in the few hours before the warrant application, then you have a point. There are only 2 unaccounted minutes between the "Code 4" (all under control here) call and the radio call to report the shooting. That is not time for anything to happen in her home and be transferred to the alley.

Did they even exercise this warrant and actually search her home?
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Old 31st July 2017, 02:29 PM   #890
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Noor declined an interview but was he required to provide blood and hair samples for drug testing? Seems this would be standard but I cannot find any reference to it.

His neighbors said he was testy, jumpy, paranoid, quick to anger. This may or may not be true but certainly fits with his actions. His mental state is the big missing piece. His past performance may hold clues to his overreaction here.

I came across an article which says that Meth seizures by law enforcement doubled in Minnesota from 2015 to 2016 to be their largest ever. Meth certainly makes people jumpy and paranoid.
http://www.startribune.com/record-nu...ear/415489274/
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Old 31st July 2017, 03:11 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
If you are investigating an officer-involved shooting, then the statement of one of the officers is not enough. There is an inherent conflict of interest there. Maybe you get the truth, maybe you don't.

Not enough for what?

Not enough to alleviate the need to search the Damond home?

That doesn't make any sense. They didn't have enough information to demonstrate a need to have a warrant issued in the first place.

Quote:

If they did manage to get and review all you listed above in the few hours before the warrant application, then you have a point. There are only 2 unaccounted minutes between the "Code 4" (all under control here) call and the radio call to report the shooting. That is not time for anything to happen in her home and be transferred to the alley.

Did they even exercise this warrant and actually search her home?

Yes.
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Old 31st July 2017, 03:37 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Does the nature of the BCA change the facts of the case? Either they had access to 911 records and the statement of one of the cops, in which case they had good reason not to suspect Damond of any crime or of there being a victim of crime in her house, or they didn't, in which case how the hell did they know which house to go fishing in?

Dave
False dichotomy.

Anyway, I would have expected some evidence, but seeing as how it is obviously not coming, there is absolutely nothing contradicting the affidavit but baseless conspiracy theories.
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Old 31st July 2017, 04:19 PM   #893
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Works perfectly fine for me...
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Old 17th August 2017, 07:46 AM   #894
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Cops get warrant for officer's phones.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/0...officers-phone
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Old 17th August 2017, 09:39 AM   #895
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I thought the standard to be followed was "We have reasonable suspicion that the premises we wish to search may hold evidence that will assist our investigation into a specific crime," not "We have managed successfully to dream up a scenario based on a staple story of a teenage romance comic that might make people think a stupid accident was in some vague sense justifiable."In your world is there any such thing as an unreasonable search?

Dave
I haven't read the warrant affidavit (the request to a judge for a warrant) but in a case with a homicide outside a victim's residence, a basic search of the residence would be pro forma - the warrant may have been issued because of the possibility of seizing potential evidence.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:17 AM   #896
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Cops get warrant for officer's phones.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/0...officers-phone
Quote:
The agent requested permission to download data from the iPhones issued by the Minneapolis Police Department.
It seems odd to me that they would need a search warrant, if the phones were issued to the officers by the department. One would think that one of the conditions associated with being issued phones in the first place was that the phones would continue to be property of the police department, which would not need a warrant to search its own property, or to allow another investigating agency permission to search.

Which leads to the next question - where have the phones been since the shooting? I am hoping that they have been secured all this time. Not much point in searching them if they've still been in the officer's possession for the last month.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:22 AM   #897
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It seems odd to me that they would need a search warrant, if the phones were issued to the officers by the department. One would think that one of the conditions associated with being issued phones in the first place was that the phones would continue to be property of the police department, which would not need a warrant to search its own property, or to allow another investigating agency permission to search.

Which leads to the next question - where have the phones been since the shooting? I am hoping that they have been secured all this time. Not much point in searching them if they've still been in the officer's possession for the last month.
Many departments don't issue cells to their officers.

I'm unaware of what the policy is with the agency in question.
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:08 AM   #898
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Cops get warrant for officer's phones.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/0...officers-phone
Why so long on these warrants compared to searching the victims residence?
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:41 AM   #899
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I haven't read the warrant affidavit (the request to a judge for a warrant) but in a case with a homicide outside a victim's residence, a basic search of the residence would be pro forma - the warrant may have been issued because of the possibility of seizing potential evidence.

How about searching the killer's home?
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:49 AM   #900
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Many departments don't issue cells to their officers.
The NPR article from Drewbot's link indicates that these were department-issued phones. The writing was not super-clear, though. Maybe that's not what they meant to say. I don't know.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why so long on these warrants compared to searching the victims residence?
I was kind of wondering if the phones have been in police custody all this time. There would be no rush for a warrant in that situation, the evidence in the phones could keep indefinitely.

You're right though, it still seems odd.
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:54 AM   #901
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The NPR article from Drewbot's link indicates that these were department-issued phones. The writing was not super-clear, though. Maybe that's not what they meant to say. I don't know.



I was kind of wondering if the phones have been in police custody all this time. There would be no rush for a warrant in that situation, the evidence in the phones could keep indefinitely.

You're right though, it still seems odd.

There may have been arguing about whether they needed a warrant, and then a fight about getting it.

Although, considering the ease with which they got some judge to okay a bogus warrant to search the woman's home it shouldn't have been that much of a problem.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:43 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How about searching the killer's home?
If the shooting occurred at the officers residence, on or off duty, I wouldn't be surprised that the house would be gone through immediately if the officer consented to a search, or gone through with a warrant, depending on circumstances.

In this case I don't know how close the officer lived to the scene. If somebody in the LEA or DA's office wants to search the officers residence and can articulate what they're looking for they'll have no problem getting a warrant.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:48 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There may have been arguing about whether they needed a warrant, and then a fight about getting it.

Although, considering the ease with which they got some judge to okay a bogus warrant to search the woman's home it shouldn't have been that much of a problem.
In your view, what is "bogus" about the warrant? Having gone through the process myself more than a few times, most judges don't look forward to issuing ******** warrants. There are judges so wary about being sucked in to somebodies problems that they are reluctant to issue warrants for anything or anyone that isn't a dead bang case.
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Old 17th August 2017, 06:05 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Many departments don't issue cells to their officers.

I'm unaware of what the policy is with the agency in question.
Maybe you should have read the linked article instead of spreading obscuration.

Quote:
The search warrant application was filed Thursday by an agent with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The agent requested permission to download data from the iPhones issued by the Minneapolis Police Department.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:35 PM   #905
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In your view, what is "bogus" about the warrant? Having gone through the process myself more than a few times, most judges don't look forward to issuing ******** warrants. There are judges so wary about being sucked in to somebodies problems that they are reluctant to issue warrants for anything or anyone that isn't a dead bang case.

You said "the warrant may have been issued because of the possibility of seizing potential evidence".

Evidence of what?

There was no reason to suspect that the woman who was killed was guilty of any crime at all. Are the homes of every innocent bystander gunned down by the cops searched "pro forma"? Or is it just the ones 'outside their residence'?

How close do they have to be? She was killed at the end of the alley. Their home was down the street from there.

Is this a case of 'if they aren't inside their residence then they are outside of it'?

What "dead bang case" was offered to the judge who approved this warrant? Aside from the bang from a cop who killed the woman dead in the street, that is.

What reasonable

"... probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized."
was presented to justify the warrant?

Is, "Oh ****** One of our guys just gunned down an innocent unarmed woman for no good reason. Maybe we ought to see if we can gin one up.", some sort of reasonable probable cause now?
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:59 PM   #906
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Well, if this was an episode of CSI, it would turn out that the cop's panicked shot missed and the woman had staggered to the car after being shot in her own home.

(No, I don't think so either.)
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Old 18th August 2017, 02:02 AM   #907
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In your view, what is "bogus" about the warrant? Having gone through the process myself more than a few times, most judges don't look forward to issuing ******** warrants. There are judges so wary about being sucked in to somebodies problems that they are reluctant to issue warrants for anything or anyone that isn't a dead bang case.
You need to read the warrant, it is clearly a fishing trip to try and discredit the victim.
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Old 18th August 2017, 03:11 AM   #908
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You need to read the warrant, it is clearly a fishing trip to try and discredit the victim.
It reads that way if you think of the police as a single entity which wants to justify its actions. If you consider the investigators in isolation from the cops who attended the scene (only one of whom has given a statement) then it seems less unreasonable.

From the investigators point of view, they have one statement and a body. Is the statement what really happened? Is it all that happened? Might there be any other victims?
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Old 18th August 2017, 11:06 AM   #909
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It reads that way if you think of the police as a single entity which wants to justify its actions. If you consider the investigators in isolation from the cops who attended the scene (only one of whom has given a statement) then it seems less unreasonable.

From the investigators point of view, they have one statement and a body. Is the statement what really happened? Is it all that happened? Might there be any other victims?

Are you suggesting they wanted to search the Damond home to make sure the cops hadn't gone in there and shot up anyone else?
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Old 18th August 2017, 01:23 PM   #910
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It reads that way if you think of the police as a single entity which wants to justify its actions. If you consider the investigators in isolation from the cops who attended the scene (only one of whom has given a statement) then it seems less unreasonable.

From the investigators point of view, they have one statement and a body. Is the statement what really happened? Is it all that happened? Might there be any other victims?
In her house???
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Old 18th August 2017, 01:43 PM   #911
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...a week after the shooting?
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Old 19th August 2017, 11:37 AM   #912
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
...a week after the shooting?
The warrant was issued within hours of the shooting wasn't it?

Anyway, I'm sure this case is as simple as it first appears (she approached the car from behind, banged on the car to get their attention and stop them driving away, but one cop mistook that for some kind of hostile move and shot her in a panic).

All I'm saying is that the investigators had to try to establish what happened independently of what the cops involved said happened (or in one case declined to say). I don't believe there will be any sort of pertinent evidence in her house but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that a search was outrageous, nor that it was definitely a fishing expedition for something to discredit her.

I may be naive.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:46 PM   #913
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I can think up a couple scenarios wherein the investigators might want to search the home of a "passionate woman" who called the cops to report sounds of sex.

But I'm not so much able to justify shooting a woman in her pajamas. Unless maybe her passion turned to anger when the cops were driving away without investigating her report of sex assault?

Hmmm, how much of the one cop's report has been published? Hmm, they don't usually release police reports to the press, do they? Have we been subjected to edited "fake news"?
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Old 20th August 2017, 02:16 PM   #914
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I am a bit torn on this one. I've been following this thread from the beginning, and it is just such a bizarre story all the way around. Ever since the warrant to search the victim's house was announced, I've been experiencing that effect of agreeing with opposite views as I read them. I'll read a well thought-out post defending the warrant, and think, "That makes sense. See, it is all fine." But then I'll read a similar one against the search, and think, "Hmmm, wait a minute. This is bogus, man! What relevance could the interior of her house have?" Very uncertain.

So, here's what I've come up with. I think both sides are correct in certain ways. On one hand, investigators want to get to the bottom of what happened in this absolutely batcrap incident. It's so batcrap that maybe they just aren't ruling anything out. Maybe they want to see if she was suicidal. Maybe they want to find out if she knew one of the cops previously, and they're just lying about it. These and other crazy scenarios are admittedly unlikely, but since there doesn't seem to be any simple or rational explanation, maybe they're just casting their nets as wide as they can in the investigation.

That being said, on the other hand, I'm certain there's also an air of "find something we can spin against her, quick!" perfuming at least a portion of that decision on the police force's end. And I find that foul, but also to be expected (sadly). I doubt they'll find much of anything in the house, regardless. But I think I can understand why they wouldn't rule it out completely in such a strange, answerless case. That doesn't mean their motives are all pure as the driven snow. I reckon they're NOT.

I think certain posters are getting a little too hung up on the "passionate" comment, and details like her using her fiance's last name. A lot of people do that. It isn't unusual, nor is it illegal. I personally tend to find it a bit annoying or dishonest, I guess, but I also really don't care. It says nothing about a person's overall character. And there are still places here where unmarried couples feel judged and maligned for not submitting to a state vetting of their relationship (re: "shacking up" has appeared a few times in this very thread - looking at you casebro). If someone wants to just use their future surname in order to dodge all that sort of nonsense, what would I care? And that's just one example. I've used a pen name before. Am I more likely to attack a cop than someone who bravely uses her legal name to publish? These are minute details. Trying to spin them or glean anything substantive from them is meaningless.

As for "passionate," so what. The guy had just lost someone he cared about in a crazy freak incident of violence, and now there are suddenly reporters everywhere wanting comments. So maybe she was indeed a "passionate" lady. Maybe that's why he loved her! MAYBE it was dog-whistle code for crazy, but I see no reason to assume that. Did he explicitly say she was being "passionate" that night she went out to meet the cops? Maybe he was just referring to her determination to see the alley checked out. Maybe she was "passionate" about not wanting people to get sexually assaulted on her watch. Doesn't that interpretation make just as much sense in context? Dozens of others do, too.

This is a mess. I can't see any possible way that the cop didn't screw up, and royally too. But I suppose we shall see.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:53 AM   #915
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The warrant was issued within hours of the shooting wasn't it?

Anyway, I'm sure this case is as simple as it first appears (she approached the car from behind, banged on the car to get their attention and stop them driving away, but one cop mistook that for some kind of hostile move and shot her in a panic).

All I'm saying is that the investigators had to try to establish what happened independently of what the cops involved said happened (or in one case declined to say). I don't believe there will be any sort of pertinent evidence in her house but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that a search was outrageous, nor that it was definitely a fishing expedition for something to discredit her.

I may be naive.
I thought that as well, until I read the warrant and it is clearly a fishing trip looking for evidence she has committed a crime, any crime.
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Old 21st August 2017, 02:54 AM   #916
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I thought that as well, until I read the warrant and it is clearly a fishing trip looking for evidence she has committed a crime, any crime.
I'll agree, it does look like an open and shut case of a jumpy (possibly badly trained) police officer shooting first and asking questions too late.
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Old 21st August 2017, 05:37 AM   #917
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You said "the warrant may have been issued because of the possibility of seizing potential evidence".

Evidence of what?

There was no reason to suspect that the woman who was killed was guilty of any crime at all. Are the homes of every innocent bystander gunned down by the cops searched "pro forma"? Or is it just the ones 'outside their residence'?
of course they are, it is like when the police shoot an innocent bystander they make sure to arrest them afterwards. See the florida shooting where the police shot a man on the ground with his hands up and then arrested him and delayed medical treatment.
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Old 21st August 2017, 08:02 AM   #918
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Remember also, that the defense is going to use every argument possible.

The prosecution needs to have all of it's stuff together.

Most likely defense is: she was acting crazy and drugged out, and screamed and slammed on the car, and he discharged his weapon fearing for his partner's life.

Defense calls drug expert to testify about the drugs she was on.
Defense is going to claim she was taking all kinds of drugs.
Prosecution needs to know what she had in the house in order to counter that.

Defense: Would suicide be one of the things someone who had taken this drug and drinking wine might be considering?
Prosecution: There was no evidence of wine or the drugs you mention in the house.

Do you see why they had to get a warrant?
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Old 21st August 2017, 08:17 AM   #919
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Remember also, that the defense is going to use every argument possible.

The prosecution needs to have all of it's stuff together.

Most likely defense is: she was acting crazy and drugged out, and screamed and slammed on the car, and he discharged his weapon fearing for his partner's life.

Defense calls drug expert to testify about the drugs she was on.
Defense is going to claim she was taking all kinds of drugs.
Prosecution needs to know what she had in the house in order to counter that.

Defense: Would suicide be one of the things someone who had taken this drug and drinking wine might be considering?
Prosecution: There was no evidence of wine or the drugs you mention in the house.

Do you see why they had to get a warrant?
No, any drugs in her apartment are irrelevant, the autopsy should cover what was in her system at the time.

The only use would be to use things in there to assassinate her character.
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Old 21st August 2017, 08:39 AM   #920
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Remember also, that the defense is going to use every argument possible.

The prosecution needs to have all of it's stuff together.

Most likely defense is: she was acting crazy and drugged out, and screamed and slammed on the car, and he discharged his weapon fearing for his partner's life.

Defense calls drug expert to testify about the drugs she was on.
Defense is going to claim she was taking all kinds of drugs.
Prosecution needs to know what she had in the house in order to counter that.

Defense: Would suicide be one of the things someone who had taken this drug and drinking wine might be considering?
Prosecution: There was no evidence of wine or the drugs you mention in the house.

Do you see why they had to get a warrant?
And his partner was asleep, or what?

The defense can't use any drug theory unless drugs are found in her system at autopsy. A little wine won't do it, either. Trying to blame Justine in that manner would not go over well with a jury.

The backlash from even suggesting it was harsh.

http://www.whimn.com.au/talk/news/th...4a1d56729ce1c2

I think the defense is going to be "cell phone gun", and I think that it will probably work, as usual.
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