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Old 9th February 2020, 05:46 PM   #201
Planigale
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't disagree with a word of that. The party is riddled with entryists and woke Stasi and there is real trouble coming fast down the track. That doesn't change the fact that if the SNP discovered a cure for cancer Labour would feed the Record a press release condemning the loss of jobs in the medical sector, and they'd print it.
I have never read the Record so I can't disagree. I just go with whatever The Orcadian says every Thursday and if any Scottish papers make it up I may read yesterday's news in the Herald.
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:32 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is dumb. Nobody had sex with anyone in this case, so "age of consent" doesn't matter.

This guy repeatedly tried to press for a "relationship" with someone who clearly wasn't interested, even after the fact was made explicit. That's creeper territory. The End.
It's not just illegal to have sex with someone that's underage, it's also illegal to try and establish a intimate relationship with someone who is underage for the purposes of having sex with them. That's what they call "grooming". If the person he had been in contact with had been under 16 his actions would have quite possibly have been deemed to constitute a crime, even-though there was never any risk of them actually having sex.

And yet some have already all but declared him guilty of grooming, even-though that's obviously not even possible as the supposed "victim" was 16 years old at the time. Even the police are apparently not sure exactly what crime they are supposed to be investigating. The only thing that rings any bell is sexual harassment, but I'm not sure if his actions would amount to that. Again as i said before, his conduct is quite tame by the standards of unwanted advances.
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Old 10th February 2020, 07:46 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's not just illegal to have sex with someone that's underage, it's also illegal to try and establish a intimate relationship with someone who is underage for the purposes of having sex with them. That's what they call "grooming". If the person he had been in contact with had been under 16 his actions would have quite possibly have been deemed to constitute a crime, even-though there was never any risk of them actually having sex.

And yet some have already all but declared him guilty of grooming, even-though that's obviously not even possible as the supposed "victim" was 16 years old at the time. Even the police are apparently not sure exactly what crime they are supposed to be investigating. The only thing that rings any bell is sexual harassment, but I'm not sure if his actions would amount to that. Again as i said before, his conduct is quite tame by the standards of unwanted advances.
Arcade22, look at Checkmite's post, then at your reply. He opines that the behavior was creepy. You respond with a legal analysis about technicalities that he raises no issue with.

The issue is the inappropriateness, or the 'creepiness' (as Checkmite, yours truly, and others have said). The legality may come into play (re harassment), but the bigger issue is a government official, or any adult, should know better than to do this, especially when the advances were clearly not welcome. There are legalities, and there is decorum.

You are misinterpreting every angle here. No one is gay-bashing, which I think you understand now. No one is saying that a middle-aged man trying to get in a relationship with a kid is illegal. It's just a creepshow.
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Old 10th February 2020, 07:52 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Arcade22, look at Checkmite's post, then at your reply. He opines that the behavior was creepy. You respond with a legal analysis about technicalities that he raises no issue with.
He said that the age of consent was irrelevant because no one had sex. I pointed out that it does matter, because there's more to it an just a prohibition on having sex with someone that's underage. Apparently that point flew over your head.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:00 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
He said that the age of consent was irrelevant because no one had sex. I pointed out that it does matter, because there's more to it an just a prohibition on having sex with someone that's underage. Apparently that point flew over your head.
It would matter if that was an issue here, or even being discussed. What you pointed out were the technicalities of an irrelevant tangent.

No one, anywhere, is accusing him of grooming or anything else involving the legalities of AoC.

At least three posters here had to convince you that there was no homophobia going on before you came down from that ledge. I am trying to talk you down from this other one, that others have pointed out.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:25 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It would matter if that was an issue here, or even being discussed. What you pointed out were the technicalities of an irrelevant tangent.
Well tell that Checkmite then, not me. I merely corrected him and explained why his statement was incorrect.

Quote:
No one, anywhere, is accusing him of grooming or anything else involving the legalities of AoC.
Actually they have accused him of grooming, please pay attention.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:33 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well tell that Checkmite then, not me. I merely corrected him and explained why his statement was incorrect.



Actually they have accused him of grooming, please pay attention.
Are you aware that 'grooming' may not be a legal charge, but more of a behavioral description? Or perhaps you can show a sober charge of criminal grooming made? I'll wait.

This is back to that hyper-legalistic thingy again.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:45 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are you aware that 'grooming' may not be a legal charge, but more of a behavioral description? Or perhaps you can show a sober charge of criminal grooming made? I'll wait.
It's called equivocationWP when one uses a term like "grooming", which has a well established legal definition defined in statute, to describe something that's not illegal without explicitly making sure that one is not using the term to describe said criminal act.

In fact, because they are using the term so freely, I'm wondering if they are not risking being sued for defamation for effectively accusing him of having committed a crime. I would have expected people to be a lot more careful in the terms they used, which some newspapers obviously have done. Some have been a lot more guarded than others.
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:00 AM   #209
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I think the chances of his going to court over that are somewhere south of absolute zero. He's had all the bad publicity he needs and then some, without paying for more.
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:00 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's called equivocationWP when one uses a term like "grooming", which has a well established legal definition defined in statute, to describe something that's not illegal without explicitly making sure that one is not using the term to describe said criminal act.

In fact, because they are using the term so freely, I'm wondering if they are not risking being sued for defamation for effectively accusing him of having committed a crime. I would have expected people to be a lot more careful in the terms they used, which some newspapers obviously have done. Some have been a lot more guarded than others.
That's a fair point. Some may be saying 'grooming' to carry the connotation of a crime.

This may be a cultural difference. I think in the States, 'grooming' is almost always used in the social sense, usually synonymous with 'preparing' or 'polishing'.

Likewise, I have always wondered if teens in Europe are noticeably more mature than American teens, so these relationships don't seem as 'creepy' on your side of the pond. Over here, you'll notice it is really treated as generally depraved. 16 year olds, though, are generally viewed as full-on children. And they are, IMO. Slow to grow up in our society, perhaps.
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:41 AM   #211
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Scotland's law regarding grooming is the "Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2005" and it clearly states the person contacted has to be under 16 and it has to be for the purpose of unlawful sexual activity.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2005/9/section/1

So, legally, what Mackay did was not grooming.
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:12 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's called equivocationWP when one uses a term like "grooming", which has a well established legal definition defined in statute, to describe something that's not illegal without explicitly making sure that one is not using the term to describe said criminal act.

In fact, because they are using the term so freely, I'm wondering if they are not risking being sued for defamation for effectively accusing him of having committed a crime.
Because in the US and possibly elsewhere in the Anglosphere "grooming" is not a legal term at all, it's just a description for a tactic that bad actors (not even just pedophiles) use to manipulate a victim into a position where they can be exploited. Your insistence here is actually the first time I've ever heard that "grooming" is a statutory term; I've never heard of anyone being charged with "grooming".
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:15 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Scotland's law regarding grooming is the "Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2005" and it clearly states the person contacted has to be under 16 and it has to be for the purpose of unlawful sexual activity.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2005/9/section/1

So, legally, what Mackay did was not grooming.
I can't find the word "grooming" anywhere on that page.

As used colloquially, "arranging to meet a child" isn't grooming, it would be a result of grooming.
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:22 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I can't find the word "grooming" anywhere on that page.
The word is not used in the Act, it is used here in the Scottish government guidance on the law;

https://www2.gov.scot/Publications/2006/11/17153941/2

"1. Section 1 of the Act creates the new "grooming" offence. This offence is intended to catch those who develop relationships with young people under 16 in order to gain their trust and persuade them into vulnerable situations where they can then be sexually assaulted. The offence is complete when the person meets or sets out to meet the child with the intention of engaging in unlawful sexual activity with or in the presence of the child during or after the meeting. The sexual activity does not need to take place. Indeed, if the sexual activity does take place, that sexual activity will probably constitute a separate sexual offence."

To commit a grooming offence, person A has to contact person B (the child under 16) and arrange to meet for sex. Contact need only be once, it does not need to be multiple times. There needs to be evidence it was for sex.

The person B in Mackay's case was 16, so no offence committed and no indication Mackay wanted to meet for sex, so also no offence committed.
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:27 AM   #215
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Whatever the legal status of the term, using it in this connection carries an ominous implication that the person doing the grooming is trying to subvert the will of someone who is particularly vulnerable. I'm 46 years old. If I start a relationship with a 19-year-old with the intention of getting her to have sex with me, that's not "grooming." Once both people are above the age of consent, the only reasons to use the term "grooming" would be if one of the people is incapable of consent due to a mental disability (fair) or to communicate that you find a relationship creepy and you're desperately looking for a way to make your objection seem reasoned.

Also, stalking and grooming are different things.
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:38 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The word is not used in the Act, it is used here in the Scottish government guidance on the law;
Okay; but in that case "grooming" is being used as a term of art by the police, and you were incorrect to state that "has a well established legal definition defined in statute". The word has a colloquial meaning that is much broader than its use in that document and for instance doesn't require the meeting or arrangement of a meeting at all. If we were to insist on that meaning as the only valid use of "grooming", that would mean that child molesters who are family members, teachers, coaches, or other individuals who already have regular direct access to a child before they begin manipulating the victim can never be described "grooming" their victim, which makes no sense.
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:43 AM   #217
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In the States, I have primarily heard grooming meant positively, as in preparing someone for advancement. Or what we do to the dog.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:29 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In the States, I have primarily heard grooming meant positively, as in preparing someone for advancement. Or what we do to the dog.
Definitely heard it used in terms of the discussion here, ie, pervs worming their way into the good graces of their targets and families of the targets.

To be clear, that is not clear what was going on in in the case in question, just pointing out that in the US, there is discussion of hebephiles and pedophiles grooming potential targets for victimization.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:33 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
The 2005 Act only applies to people below the age of 16 hence this is not illegal grooming. It is over the age of consent. Nevertheless as recently as last Easter the Scottish Government and Police Scotland launched a campaign highlighting the risk of grooming, and there have been other schemes highlighting (for example) texting and social media conduct.

Come on Nessie, get with the previous posts!
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:34 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Whatever the legal status of the term, using it in this connection carries an ominous implication that the person doing the grooming is trying to subvert the will of someone who is particularly vulnerable. I'm 46 years old. If I start a relationship with a 19-year-old with the intention of getting her to have sex with me, that's not "grooming." Once both people are above the age of consent, the only reasons to use the term "grooming" would be if one of the people is incapable of consent due to a mental disability (fair) or to communicate that you find a relationship creepy and you're desperately looking for a way to make your objection seem reasoned.

Also, stalking and grooming are different things.
Meh, its totally fair to talk about some old person grooming a much younger person regardless of the legality. It can certainly go the other way too. For instance, I think its fair to say that Weinstein or Louis CK probably groomed some of their victim. Especially CK because for the most part, Harvey just force women to have sex via extortion. CK on the other hand, seemed mostly to spend time with his vicitims and getting on their good sides before, "hey, can I masterbate in front of you?" I'm pretty sure you can't just do that to some one and expect to get away with it with out some kind of understanding that they weren't going to immediately go to the press.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:03 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Okay; but in that case "grooming" is being used as a term of art by the police, and you were incorrect to state that "has a well established legal definition defined in statute".
Those words are not mine. Who are you quoting?

Quote:
The word has a colloquial meaning that is much broader than its use in that document and for instance doesn't require the meeting or arrangement of a meeting at all. If we were to insist on that meaning as the only valid use of "grooming", that would mean that child molesters who are family members, teachers, coaches, or other individuals who already have regular direct access to a child before they begin manipulating the victim can never be described "grooming" their victim, which makes no sense.
In this case, what was done was not illegal, but it had strong similarities with illegal behaviour, which is why Mackay has been roundly criticised and he has resigned his cabinet post.

Macakay was grooming the 16 year old, but according to Scottish law, not illegally.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:06 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Your insistence here is actually the first time I've ever heard that "grooming" is a statutory term; I've never heard of anyone being charged with "grooming".
To be fair it's true that it's confusing, which is a part of the problem i was describing. "Grooming" is an established synonym for trying to meet someone under the age of consent for sex.

Here's a Guardian article that uses the term in that specific meaning, while also explicitly showing that the popular conception of "grooming" is flawed by the various ways the term is used:

Quote:
The results, the researchers say, dispel a number of misconceptions about online groomers, including the idea that they always pose as children, and that grooming is a lengthy process.

From two studies involving a total of more than 250 groomers, none of the predators were found to be masquerading as children. “A huge percentage of them say the age they are,” said Izura. “We had a range of ages between 18 and 65, the real age, and the [stated] age was between 16 years of age to 61.”

Another finding, say the researchers, is that online grooming can be very rapid, with analysis of chat logs revealing that it can take just 18 minutes for some predators to arrange to meet their victim. “The speed can be alarmingly fast, ” said Izura. The fastest, says Lorenzo-Dus used sophisticated, persuasive, language-based strategies to build trust rapidly, including the use of small talk and praise.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...searchers-find

In short, if you accuse someone of "grooming" after they sent messages to a 16 year old, you are very likely to be interpreted as accusing someone of committing a crime.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:31 PM   #223
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I thought i remembered hearing about a recent book about the subject of "seduction", which would include hitting on 16 year old boys, and found it:

Quote:
SEDUCTION
A History From the Enlightenment to the Present

By Clement Knox

Seduction is an especially fraught subject because we have long had trouble agreeing on what it is. Does it mean chocolate-dipped strawberries and a Quiet Storm playlist? Swiping right? Stretching provocatively at the gym? Sending pictures of your genitalia? Grabbing ’em by the you-know-what? Demanding a “massage” for a $200 tip — or the promise of movie roles?

It is a rich field for Clement Knox, our genteel narrator and a puppy-eyed 30-year-old nonfiction book buyer in London for Waterstones. At first, I assumed the author’s youth was the reason his history of the subject was so gargantuan, a near 500-page feat of millennial overcompensation. But I was wrong. Seduction is a grand theme, influencing politics and power, guiding history, shaping literature and forging powerful social movements.

Knox takes us through the lives of memorable seducers and their critics, in sometimes academic and sometimes rococo prose dappled with doges, coups de foudre, rakes, bawds, coquettes, coxcombs and procuresses — with guest appearances by members of the Frankfurt School sunning themselves in La Jolla.

...

Knox’s dialectics follow us throughout: It turns out that we were just as conflicted about seduction centuries ago as we are now. Depending on whom you ask and when, the seducer is either a manipulative villain exploiting innocents or a heroic figure of sexual liberation. Among the Romantics, Mary Shelley (see above) celebrated free love as much as men like Lord Byron did, but struggled to reconcile her physical passions with the misogyny of her era.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/b...ment-knox.html

No more trying to "seduce" 16 year old boys, please. The PC term is now "grooming", and it's a very bad thing.
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Old 10th February 2020, 05:06 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In the States, I have primarily heard grooming meant positively, as in preparing someone for advancement. Or what we do to the dog.
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Definitely heard it used in terms of the discussion here, ie, pervs worming their way into the good graces of their targets and families of the targets.

To be clear, that is not clear what was going on in in the case in question, just pointing out that in the US, there is discussion of hebephiles and pedophiles grooming potential targets for victimization.
Strictly speaking, "grooming" simply means "preparing someone for something", and is a neutral term. Certain corporate managers are often said to be "groomed" for an eventual executive position; royal heirs-apparent like Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman are sometimes described as having been "groomed" for the eventual throne.

When it comes to child sexual abuse, "grooming" is simply whatever the pedophile does to prepare a target child for eventual exploitation. An adult's befriending or winning the confidence of the child, encouraging them to discuss increasingly private or sexual matters, or acclimating them to more and more intimate physical contact over time, exposing them to pornography to promote an interest - all of this constitutes grooming behavior and can be called such. "Attempting to arrange a meeting" counts, but it's just one example, and a highly circumstantial one at that since it's limited to only cases where a pedophile has only communicated with a target child electronically - which to my knowledge is a minority of child abuse cases over all; so it's weird to try and enforce a new definition of "grooming" to apply only to this specific kind of case. In point of fact it doesn't even apply to all electronic-communication cases, since one increasingly common (relatively speaking) form of exploitation is for adults to groom children to make videos or livestream themselves naked or engaging in activities while the pedophile watches or records the video to share later, and these cases never involve arrangements for a physical meeting but they very certainly involve grooming.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:11 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's a fair point. Some may be saying 'grooming' to carry the connotation of a crime.



This may be a cultural difference. I think in the States, 'grooming' is almost always used in the social sense, usually synonymous with 'preparing' or 'polishing'.



Likewise, I have always wondered if teens in Europe are noticeably more mature than American teens, so these relationships don't seem as 'creepy' on your side of the pond. Over here, you'll notice it is really treated as generally depraved. 16 year olds, though, are generally viewed as full-on children. And they are, IMO. Slow to grow up in our society, perhaps.
I seriously believe our popular cultures causes, and not sure what to call it a form of cognitive dissonance (?) by the use of adults to play kids in many tv shows and movies. And then even when using actual kids to play kids us kids that look "more" adult in terms of features.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:33 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Banging on about homo perversion
Roy Moore
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:40 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I seriously believe our popular cultures causes, and not sure what to call it a form of cognitive dissonance (?) by the use of adults to play kids in many tv shows and movies. And then even when using actual kids to play kids us kids that look "more" adult in terms of features.
It's probably better that they use adults to play kids.

At least that way you don't have to worry that chidden are being abused.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:28 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I seriously believe our popular cultures causes, and not sure what to call it a form of cognitive dissonance (?) by the use of adults to play kids in many tv shows and movies. And then even when using actual kids to play kids us kids that look "more" adult in terms of features.

I remember an interview with someone who worked on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" who said that they'd had to go to the school they used for filming at a time when it was full of actual pupils, and they were creeped out by how young they all looked compared to the 18 and 19 year olds they were using in the show.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:43 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I remember an interview with someone who worked on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" who said that they'd had to go to the school they used for filming at a time when it was full of actual pupils, and they were creeped out by how young they all looked compared to the 18 and 19 year olds they were using in the show.
The most magical thing ever depicted on Buffy was a entire high school of students without any pimples.
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Old 11th February 2020, 07:12 AM   #230
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As i said earlier, this has not made the it onto the news in Sweden and I'd wager that it would not have made the news even if it had taken place here either. He would have had to acted in a far more discomforting or obscene manner than he actually did to warrant any kind of public interest. The media attention comes of as grossly exaggerated compared to his behavior.

From my experience the UK is similar to the US in it's public attitudes to teenage sex in general. It has generally been discussed only in terms of harm, abuse, exploitation and stuff like that. Teenage pregnancies have been a problem in both America and the UK, even-though Sweden has more permissive laws than either of them. Naively you'd expect that teenagers would get pregnant here more often, but they don't.

In the end, given how the subject is framed in American and British culture, it's not exactly unexpected that thoughts of people "wanting to have sex with teens" someone make people feel nauseous or otherwise unnerved. Only bad things are associated with it. I'm not saying Swedish people are 100% accepting towards people who sexually proposition those significantly younger than themselves, but in terms of public hostility there's a big difference.

Edit: if anything, in my experience, it's older women who tend to be most displeased at guys trying to hit on younger women. From the way they express themselves, I'm almost certain that there's a strong degree of envy in that younger women are considered more desirable.
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Old 11th February 2020, 07:20 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
As an aside, and only slightly related:

Do you think really, really clever people should be allowed to try to seduce stupid people (of the same age) that they find attractive?
I mean legally that would be impossible to enforce, but at least morally, we do have a broadly acknowledged concept of "taking advantage".
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Old 11th February 2020, 08:03 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
As i said earlier, this has not made the it onto the news in Sweden and I'd wager that it would not have made the news even if it had taken place here either. He would have had to acted in a far more discomforting or obscene manner than he actually did to warrant any kind of public interest. The media attention comes of as grossly exaggerated compared to his behavior.

From my experience the UK is similar to the US in it's public attitudes to teenage sex in general. It has generally been discussed only in terms of harm, abuse, exploitation and stuff like that. Teenage pregnancies have been a problem in both America and the UK, even-though Sweden has more permissive laws than either of them. Naively you'd expect that teenagers would get pregnant here more often, but they don't.

In the end, given how the subject is framed in American and British culture, it's not exactly unexpected that thoughts of people "wanting to have sex with teens" someone make people feel nauseous or otherwise unnerved. Only bad things are associated with it. I'm not saying Swedish people are 100% accepting towards people who sexually proposition those significantly younger than themselves, but in terms of public hostility there's a big difference.

Edit: if anything, in my experience, it's older women who tend to be most displeased at guys trying to hit on younger women. From the way they express themselves, I'm almost certain that there's a strong degree of envy in that younger women are considered more desirable.
The issue is not 'people' or 'teens' or 'younger women'.

The issue is 'middle aged people having sex with children'.

If you can't go to a bar together, it's probably a sign of something.
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:39 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Good rule of thumb is that if you have to argue about where the line is, you're up to no good. Unethical sleazebags always try to reframe their behaviors as technically legal.

Full blown adults trying to get busy with kids is always bad, barring a few rare outliers. AoC is the cheapest of cop outs.

As a guideline, over 21 shouldn't knowingly get in the pants of under 18 for any reason.
I know you said "guideline" but you made me think of my folks. When they got married Dad was 21 and Mum was 18. There was a period of months before the wedding where Dad was 21 while Mum was 17. Also, on their first date Dad was 16 and Mum was 13. Seems their relationship would not pass muster of some posting here. Guidelines are generally good and they allow for exceptions. Encoding ages into law as some have suggested is not so good.

FTR the age difference of the subjects of this thread is not so good, especially as the younger participant seems not too willing. It is also politically damaging and his resignation was necessary.
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:50 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The issue is not 'people' or 'teens' or 'younger women'.

The issue is 'middle aged people having sex with children'.

If you can't go to a bar together, it's probably a sign of something.
In my home town you were considered a slow starter if you weren't drinking in pubs before you were 16.....
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I know you said "guideline" but you made me think of my folks. When they got married Dad was 21 and Mum was 18. There was a period of months before the wedding where Dad was 21 while Mum was 17. Also, on their first date Dad was 16 and Mum was 13. Seems their relationship would not pass muster of some posting here. Guidelines are generally good and they allow for exceptions. Encoding ages into law as some have suggested is not so good.

FTR the age difference of the subjects of this thread is not so good, especially as the younger participant seems not too willing. It is also politically damaging and his resignation was necessary.
Agreed, the calendar and clock are not the determinants. But for the sake of laws, we do need to structure things somehow, perhaps with liberal Romeo and Juliet provisions.

The point was that older men who are trying to score the most childlike and inexperienced tail they can without going to prison should maybe be discouraged.
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed, the calendar and clock are not the determinants. But for the sake of laws, we do need to structure things somehow, perhaps with liberal Romeo and Juliet provisions.

The point was that older men who are trying to score the most childlike and inexperienced tail they can without going to prison should maybe be discouraged.
I agree.
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:58 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's probably better that they use adults to play kids.

At least that way you don't have to worry that chidden are being abused.
Not following you? There are plenty of programmes made that feature scenes with actual children that if they were real would be abuse, however programme makers go to great lengths to ensure no actual abuse is happening, its often clever editing, like cut aways and totally separate shoots, even dummies used to provide a silhouette in a shot when an adult actor is apparently screaming at a child actor.
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Old 11th February 2020, 10:44 AM   #238
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When I hear the MP saw a picture on FaceBk of a 16 year old boy, and felt he had to message him, I can only summon the image of the Great Graham Chapman.

STREWTH!!

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