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Old 6th February 2020, 03:07 PM   #81
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Ah, so a bit like swimming pools. Got it.
If you like. And we do things to limit the harm swimming pools do. We put fences around them, we put covers over them that can support a person's weight, we use lifeguards, we teach kids how to swim. We don't just go, oh well, if you drown its your own fault for going near them, what did you think water would do?

Likewise, we should do things to limit the harm that twitter mobs do. I'm not sure why that idea seems like a problem to you.
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Old 6th February 2020, 03:14 PM   #82
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I joined Twitter just a few days ago.

I'm already hating it.
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Old 6th February 2020, 04:12 PM   #83
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I guess I'm just saying it's not a positive thing. I don't have a solution other than raising awareness about it a little bit. Maybe we should all have a little more empathy for one another.

ETA: It's also not about freedom of speech. It's about how we choose to use that freedom.
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Old 6th February 2020, 05:30 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If that alone causes you pain, there's probably something wrong with you which you should get fixed.
Then it really isn't the actions of the twitter mob you object to. At it's core, you reject their claims of hurt in the first place. It seems you would rightfully object to their issuance of a mild rebuke as their rebuke would be unjustified.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:25 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I joined Twitter just a few days ago.

I'm already hating it.
The trick is to make custom lists of people who are smart on stuff you care about.

For example: https://twitter.com/i/lists/1029045895281692677
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:18 PM   #86
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It’s twitter. No one ever needs to join It.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Old 7th February 2020, 01:47 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Ah, so a bit like swimming pools. Got it.
I don't think you're actually engaging with the things Ziggurat is saying.

Saying that twitter mobs are bad doesn't mean that the victims of twitter mobs couldn't have taken actions to avoid them. It also doesn't mean that they are worse than something else. It just means that they are bad: we would be better off if people didn't join them.

All of the things you've said in this thread can still be true without changing that fact.
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Old 7th February 2020, 01:51 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
It’s twitter. No one ever needs to join It.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I've read a lot of interesting science articles recommended on twitter since joining a month or so ago.

Steven Pinker tweeted a recommendation of a podcast about the history of Free Speech (Clear and Present Danger) that I've been learning a lot from.

It's about how you use it.
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Old 7th February 2020, 04:45 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then it really isn't the actions of the twitter mob you object to. At it's core, you reject their claims of hurt in the first place.
No. If you get upset about things you shouldn’t be upset about, that is your problem. By itself, that only hurts you. If you want to hurt yourself, I won’t try to stop you. It’s when you take action that you can hurt others, and that is the real problem.
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Old 7th February 2020, 08:25 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. If you get upset about things you shouldn’t be upset about, that is your problem. By itself, that only hurts you. If you want to hurt yourself, I won’t try to stop you. It’s when you take action that you can hurt others, and that is the real problem.
But you expressed that it is acceptable for people who have been legitimately hurt to ostracize others which can hurt other.

It isn't ostracism you seem to object to. You object to people not having a legitimate reason to do it. If you agreed that the larger group was legitimately hurt, would you still oppose mass ostracism?
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Old 7th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But you expressed that it is acceptable for people who have been legitimately hurt to ostracize others which can hurt other.

It isn't ostracism you seem to object to. You object to people not having a legitimate reason to do it. If you agreed that the larger group was legitimately hurt, would you still oppose mass ostracism?
I don't know if you're simply clueless, or if you're trying to be clever and failing, but this isn't very complicated. You can associate or not associate with whoever you like, for whatever reasons you like. But it's a bad thing to try to dictate to other people who they can associate with.

The entire point of forming a twitter mob is to threaten other people to stop associating with the target. If it was simply people choosing themselves not to associate with the target, then no mob would be necessary.
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Old 7th February 2020, 10:11 AM   #92
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If we translate twitter mobs into real life, wouldn't the analogy be more like somebody overhears a public conversation in which perhaps something edgy gets said, or something innocent gets misunderstood. They then take it upon themselves to identify the speaker and organise an anonymous letter writing campaign. People who only have 4th hand accounts of the original encounter start approaching the original speakers work, following their neighbours children home from school, calling the police in the middle of the night....

You and your friends deciding to ostracise someone from your group is not the same thing.
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Old 7th February 2020, 11:23 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If we translate twitter mobs into real life, wouldn't the analogy be more like somebody overhears a public conversation in which perhaps something edgy gets said, or something innocent gets misunderstood. They then take it upon themselves to identify the speaker and organise an anonymous letter writing campaign. People who only have 4th hand accounts of the original encounter start approaching the original speakers work, following their neighbours children home from school, calling the police in the middle of the night....

You and your friends deciding to ostracise someone from your group is not the same thing.
"Overheard a public conversation?" Twitter is someone with a megaphone screaming at everybody.
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Old 7th February 2020, 11:50 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't know if you're simply clueless, or if you're trying to be clever and failing, but this isn't very complicated. You can associate or not associate with whoever you like, for whatever reasons you like. But it's a bad thing to try to dictate to other people who they can associate with.

The entire point of forming a twitter mob is to threaten other people to stop associating with the target. If it was simply people choosing themselves not to associate with the target, then no mob would be necessary.
But what I'm trying to get you to nail down is WHY this is your position.

Here are two analogies.

Analogy 1
Person X is a civil attorney and believes strongly in financial damages to address harms against plaintiffs. Person X opposes reparations because he ultimately rejects that the parties who would receive benefits have been harmed.

Analogy 2
Person Y is an advocate for victims of crime. Person Y opposes the death penalty as unethical even though they strongly believe victims are absolutely right to want their perpetrators punished.


See the difference? Person X objects to a proposal because they reject the notion that there is a victim. Person Y rejects a proposal because they disagree with the method even though someone was harmed.


If I'm reading your posts correctly, you are at least like person X because you reject the idea that people advocating that person A drop person B are harmed by person A.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:28 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The trick is to make custom lists of people who are smart on stuff you care about.

For example: https://twitter.com/i/lists/1029045895281692677
I'm....not sure what I'm looking at. Clicked your profile I'm not sure where the customization is.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:40 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Overheard a public conversation?" Twitter is someone with a megaphone screaming at everybody.
It's really not like someone with a megaphone at all. You have to follow people on twitter to see their tweets.
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Old 7th February 2020, 08:05 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It's really not like someone with a megaphone at all. You have to follow people on twitter to see their tweets.
No you don't. I don't have Twitter, I read people's tweets all the time.
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Old 7th February 2020, 10:44 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No you don't. I don't have Twitter, I read people's tweets all the time.
Sure, because they were shared with you by other people. I didn't suggest that twitter posts were secret or something.
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Old 7th February 2020, 11:09 PM   #99
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According to Twitter there are about 300 million people active on Twitter in any given month.

So if you have 0.001% of them chiming in on something you have a 3,000 strong twitter mob.

People should learn not to worry about the fact that 0.001% of people on twitter have some particular opinion.
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Old 7th February 2020, 11:27 PM   #100
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Put it this way.

Outside a university a guy in shabby clothes and dishevelled hair stands holding up a handwritten brown cardboard sign saying "Sack Perfesser Hopkins".

Inside the university administrators are having a crisis meeting. "What can we do?". They come to a unanimous conclusion about the only path available: "We must sack Perfesser Hopkins".

The next day Quillette publishes a strongly worded article about this, asking "What can be done about the new fascism of shabbily dressed people with cardboard signs?"

But of course the guy with the cardboard sign didn't employ Perfesser Hopkins, the university did and it was they who sacked him. What they should have done is simply ignored the guy, or even taken him out a cup of coffee and asked if he was OK.

My point is that twitter users are the shabbiiy dressed folk with cardboard signs, the only difference is we are on the internet.

And yet even the Nobel Laureates running the Royal Society will tremble at the twitter users and cut loose an eminent scientist rather than risk the wrath of twitter users.

That is what has to stop.
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Old 7th February 2020, 11:29 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
According to Twitter there are about 300 million people active on Twitter in any given month.

So if you have 0.001% of them chiming in on something you have a 3,000 strong twitter mob.
Why is the total number of users on Twitter the right metric? There are 7 billion people on the Earth, why aren't you using that number? Alternatively if someone has 100 followers what isn't that the more relevant denominator?

Quote:
People should learn not to worry about the fact that 0.001% of people on twitter have some particular opinion.
I don't think there's any issue with x number of people on twitter having some particular opinion. The issue is the actions they take. Sometimes those actions cause harm.
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Old 8th February 2020, 06:36 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Why is the total number of users on Twitter the right metric? There are 7 billion people on the Earth, why aren't you using that number? Alternatively if someone has 100 followers what isn't that the more relevant denominator?
That isn't the relevant figure for what I am talking about.

If 3000 people tweet "Fred Bloggs is a transphobe" and his employer sacks him for being a transphobe without any other corroboration, then his employer is an idiot because it has reacted to what 0.00001% of the active twitter population have decided about Fred Bloggs.
Quote:
I don't think there's any issue with x number of people on twitter having some particular opinion. The issue is the actions they take. Sometimes those actions cause harm.
Can you give me an example of what you mean by these actions?
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Old 8th February 2020, 06:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sure, because they were shared with you by other people. I didn't suggest that twitter posts were secret or something.
Umm no. I just search a term and a bunch of tweets come up.

Unless you are saying twitter as a company are sharing with me.
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Old 8th February 2020, 07:52 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Umm no. I just search a term and a bunch of tweets come up.

Unless you are saying twitter as a company are sharing with me.
Sure, you can search for something and see it. I"m not seeing that as analogous to a megaphone, in which people who are not interested in hearing someone speak are necessarily exposed to it.
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Old 8th February 2020, 07:57 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That isn't the relevant figure for what I am talking about.

If 3000 people tweet "Fred Bloggs is a transphobe" and his employer sacks him for being a transphobe without any other corroboration, then his employer is an idiot because it has reacted to what 0.00001% of the active twitter population have decided about Fred Bloggs.
If those 3000 people represent the entire population of people who saw the tweet, why is it relevant what percentage of the total population of twitter users they represent?

Quote:
Can you give me an example of what you mean by these actions?
See the OP for instance. But beyond that, I think it's obvious that bullying causes harm. Is twitter a place where you don't expect bullying to occur? I think it would be better if people were nice to each other. I don't see why that's a controversial opinion.
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Old 8th February 2020, 07:58 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sure, you can search for something and see it. I"m not seeing that as analogous to a megaphone, in which people who are not interested in hearing someone speak are necessarily exposed to it.
Okay. So you were wrong when you said you had to follow someone to see their tweets.
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Old 8th February 2020, 08:48 PM   #107
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Rule 1: never set up your social network accounts to your job. They will know. They will use it against you.

Rule 2: If you must, set up another account. You're having fun in spot X, they's checking but only in spot Z, where you talk about how great the company is.

There ya go!
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Old 8th February 2020, 09:11 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Okay. So you were wrong when you said you had to follow someone to see their tweets.
Yes, I was wrong about that. I don't use the search function much and had forgotten about it.
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Old 9th February 2020, 12:28 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If those 3000 people represent the entire population of people who saw the tweet, why is it relevant what percentage of the total population of twitter users they represent?
Do you mean apart from the reasons I already gave?

Do you think it is reasonable for an employer to sack someone on the basis of 3000 tweets?
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Old 9th February 2020, 12:45 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
See the OP for instance
The OP is about an internet celebrity who has $12 million and 16 million subscribers and some people on social media suggested that he was a transphobe.

Probably not a good example.
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Old 9th February 2020, 01:37 AM   #111
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A popular fallacy is that social media has turned us all into worse people.

That is nonsense, we were always that way. All social media did is to turn a great big microphone on us.

Expecting people to become better than we were just because we have new technology is futile.

We will either have to ban social media or learn to live with it.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 9th February 2020, 01:38 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Do you mean apart from the reasons I already gave?
I don't see any reason in anything you wrote that makes the percentage of total twitter users relevant.

Quote:
Do you think it is reasonable for an employer to sack someone on the basis of 3000 tweets?
In some potential cases yes.
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
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Old 9th February 2020, 01:43 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The OP is about an internet celebrity who has $12 million and 16 million subscribers and some people on social media suggested that he was a transphobe.

Probably not a good example.
Why not?
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Old 9th February 2020, 07:06 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Do you think it is reasonable for an employer to sack someone on the basis of 3000 tweets?
I think a lot of us would lose our jobs if we got three thousand complaints.
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Old 9th February 2020, 09:08 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yes, I was wrong about that. I don't use the search function much and had forgotten about it.
I follow 17 accounts on Twitter. They are almost all science, comedy, and family. Yet Twitter almost daily emails me tweets from political people I oppose, usually from Trump or his one black follower. Yes, I have my settings for them to not send me emails and that did cut down on the number of emails I received, but not from that one kind. And that's not even the default setting. And this assumes you're not noticing the trending (which if I remember correctly is on the search page, so you wouldn't see it). And the sponsored ones.

Most people see tweets from people they are not following.

This is to say, that while some people can tune Twitter to not be horrible, the default experience for the overwhelming majority is. The slightly tweeked tweet experience for most of the rest is horrible. The technical ability to get around the horribleness really doesn't do much to mitigate the horribleness.
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Old 9th February 2020, 11:17 PM   #116
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Weird. Every once in a while I'll see a tweet from someone I don't follow because it's been liked by someone I do follow, or sometimes for some reason I'm not sure why (for instance it shows me Donald Trump's tweets sometimes and I have no idea why). I haven't seen any emails from Twitter, but actually they may be sending them to my other email address that I don't check regularly..

Anyway, as I said I was wrong about that.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:08 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think I would put it so eloquently myself but I find that this reflects my own views. You can only be canceled by people you care about.
I can think of at least a couple counterexamples to this.

One of them I can recite more or less from memory. We were putting together a list of confirmed and potential speakers for the largest freethought conference here in Oklahoma. At one point, we were planning to have this freethought blogger and this science blogger in separate time slots. These two ladies got into something of a beef, a certain amount of online posturing and mutual excommunicaitons ensued. In the end, one of them canceled her showing after (unsucessfully) demanding that the other one be canceled by event organizers. This sort of thing (speakers making demands about other speakers) was common enough back in the day that I wrote a brief blogpost about various speakers who has publicly announced that they would not share the stage with various other speakers from the freethought circuit. Such public announcements were, in my view, only the tip of the iceberg.

Of course this talk about deplatforming public figures is somewhat orthogonal to the phenomenon of viral outrage on Twitter, but generally they tend to intersect.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:08 AM   #118
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The Hill is covering the youtube video in the OP:

YouTube star ContraPoints discusses calling 'cancel culture' a modern guillotine

Quote:
YouTube star Natalie Wynn, known as ContraPoints on the platform, said Monday she is glad she published her video describing “cancel culture” as a modern-day guillotine, even though she was worried she’d be attacked by her own “side” when she released it last month.

“I was very worried about it. It’s a topic I've wanted to cover for probably two years, I always put it off,” she said in an Hill.TV interview, adding that she had concerns it would be used by people to dismiss all complaints over bigotry or other concerns.

“So I worried about a video I made being used the wrong way, by that kind of person. And then I also worried about the risk of being attacked by people on my own side, internet leftist politics,” she said. “Because it is difficult to have a nuanced take on this topic.”

Ultimately, though, she said she is glad she published her video and said the response has been “overwhelmingly positive.”

Wynn’s one hour and 40 minute long video was uploaded on Jan. 2. In it, she compares modern day “cancel culture” to the guillotine.

“The bringer of justice, the people's avenger, but also like the guillotine it can become a sadistic entertainment spectacle,” she said in the video. “We do have a teensy bit of a reign of terror situation on our hands.”
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:47 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Put it this way.

<<Snip>>

That is what has to stop.
I can largely agree with that.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:18 AM   #120
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Welcome to Cancel Culture/2013
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