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Old 13th February 2020, 10:48 PM   #1041
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Insufficiently, because as I said, we are specifically talking about an entity that is proposed to be outside the container. Your container is a complete red herring.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you think that "Not knowing if there is anything outside of a container is "philosophically" identical to knowing that nothing is outside the container" is any less silly?
You have failed to understand what I wrote. Let me think for a bit and I'll see if I can come up with a way of saying it that you will find easier to understand.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:58 PM   #1042
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You have failed to understand what I wrote.
If I posted that I would get mocked. I would be attributed as saying "WAH WAH WAH Nobody understands me!"

BTW you repeated "outside the container" so I don't know how you can rephrase that without retracting it.
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Old 14th February 2020, 12:47 AM   #1043
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This. This is it, in a nutshell. Especially psionl0's potential undetectable deity existing outside the universe. What purpose does asking that question serve? Let's just not even bother with it.
And even if you think it is an interesting question you still have to support your "could" claim to start with i. E. That such a pgod could exist. All psionio has been doing is writing a sentence such as "the starship accelerated to 5 times the speed of light" or "I could draw a square circle". It is not us that needs to support the claim they make, if they want us to consider their claim they need to demonstrate that pgod could exist. Especially since pgod is not a god any religion claims exists.
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Old 14th February 2020, 12:56 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
if they want us to consider their claim they need to demonstrate that pgod could exist.
I am not making any claim. You are making the claim that it is impossible for any god to exist.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Especially since pgod is not a god any religion claims exists.
I didn't invent a pgod. YOU did.
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Old 14th February 2020, 02:17 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I am not making any claim. You are making the claim that it is impossible for any god to exist.





I didn't invent a pgod. YOU did.
Yes you are, you are claiming your pgod COULD exist. You need to support that claim of "could".
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Old 14th February 2020, 02:38 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes you are, you are claiming your pgod COULD exist. You need to support that claim of "could".
No I'm not.

You are just clinging on to this ridiculous argument that nobody believes in a god that can create the universe and nobody believes in an invisible god because you have posted it so many times.

You invented "pgod" in an attempt to make your nonsense sound more credible but you are only impressing the peanut gallery.
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Old 14th February 2020, 05:11 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No I'm not.

You are just clinging on to this ridiculous argument that nobody believes in a god that can create the universe and nobody believes in an invisible god because you have posted it so many times.

You invented "pgod" in an attempt to make your nonsense sound more credible but you are only impressing the peanut gallery.
Nope, you invented pgod, a god which could exist, a god to which no religion adheres and whose properties you claim to know are possible somehow.

Everyone else is asking how it is that you know such an entity is possible. You merely attempt to reverse the burden of proof by bleating "Prove your claim that such a god is impossible." Despite the fact that it is your affirmative claim that it is possible.

So...
Is such a pgod possible? I don't know. What I do know is that only you claim such a possibility. Nobody else, not even deists.

You confidently describe it's properties, challenge everyone to prove it doesn't exist and promptly deny having described it's properties.

In the end, your argument has the hallmarks of Sye Ten Bruggencate all over it.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:00 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You invented "pgod" in an attempt to make your nonsense sound more credible but you are only impressing the peanut gallery.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope, you invented pgod, a god which could exist, a god to which no religion adheres and whose properties you claim to know are possible somehow.
Case in point.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:03 AM   #1049
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Yes we do all know you didn’t actually propose it exists. Just that it can’t be ruled out.

Also a few people seem to think you have one of those outside of the universe not interacting gods, when in fact you have one of the sneaky intervening but undetectable whenever they want to be undetectable types. Perfectly compatible with many casual believers’ gods.

Last edited by Lithrael; 14th February 2020 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:10 AM   #1050
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Psion what part of you "No... but maybe God" do you think people don't understand?

Your argument being wrong is not dependent on you saying there is a God. You're "But we can't rule it out" is enough. That's what you're saying and that's what people are arguing against. We know what your argument is, it's just wrong.

"But I'm not saying there's a God" is not the defense you think it is.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:11 AM   #1051
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By the way the hijack while the apologists sits there in a huff, convinced they've won the argument because they claimed they are being "strawmanned" into a theist is also in the script. It's old.

"Okay but maybe God" is a bad argument, whether coming from a theist or an apologist.

So we can drop this new Jabbian sidetrack and move on to the next one.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:42 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yes we do all know you didn’t actually propose it exists. Just that it can’t be ruled out.



Also a few people seem to think you have one of those outside of the universe not interacting gods, when in fact you have one of the sneaky intervening but undetectable whenever they want to be undetectable types. Perfectly compatible with many casual believers’ gods.
But not religions' gods.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:46 AM   #1053
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Again there's a reason that in the "Dragon in my Garage" metaphor I don't start out with the claim that there's an invisible, floating, mute, undetectable dragon in my garage, I simply say "dragon."

That's so I can refine the special pleading as new ways to detect my dragon and confirm or not confirm it's existence are proposed.

Psion's "Vague maybe God" is the same thing. It doesn't start with any qualities, it only has them added to explain why we can't determine if it's there or not. There's a term for that. A special term. A pleading term.

It's a God.

But not that God.

No not that one either.

Oh and it started the universe and then left.

And it only exists outside the universe.

On Thursdays.

Between 5:00 and 5:05 in the morning.

If the moon is full.

And a Pacific Team won the Stanley Cup last year.

And the tides are in.

And the sparrows are in Capistrano.

Nobody, not even I suspect the people making it, are really not getting what this is.

"What is the minimum amount of God you will accept?" Again I spent a decade of my adult life listening to Jabba grovel and beg for someone to tell him how much he would have to water down immorality before someone would accept it as a possibility. This is not a new tactic.

Well here's my answer. Given the evidence, zero.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:47 AM   #1054
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No I'm not.



You are just clinging on to this ridiculous argument that nobody believes in a god that can create the universe and nobody believes in an invisible god because you have posted it so many times.



You invented "pgod" in an attempt to make your nonsense sound more credible but you are only impressing the peanut gallery.

Nope. You claim pgod could exist, it is up to you to prove it could exist.

If you can't prove your could then all you are reduced to is fantasy, it becomes exactly the same as someone saying "the starship could accelerate to 5 times the speed of light" and then saying it is up to everyone else to prove it couldn't.

Your could has to to come before our couldn't.
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:42 AM   #1055
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yes we do all know you didn’t actually propose it exists. Just that it can’t be ruled out.

Also a few people seem to think you have one of those outside of the universe not interacting gods, when in fact you have one of the sneaky intervening but undetectable whenever they want to be undetectable types. Perfectly compatible with many casual believers’ gods.
One of the few posters who is dealing with what I actually post.
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:44 AM   #1056
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope. You claim pgod could exist
And one of the many who aren't.
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:45 AM   #1057
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But not religions' gods.
What a load of rubbish you post.

The vast majority of Abrahamic God believers believe that God created the universe and that God is invisible.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:14 AM   #1058
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What a load of rubbish you post.
Pot, meet kettle.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The vast majority of Abrahamic God believers believe that God created the universe and that God is invisible.
Maybe, since Genesis says God created the heavens and the earth. As for invisible, who knows about most? I just knew I couldn't see him/her/it.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:16 AM   #1059
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The vast majority of Abrahamic God believers believe that God created the universe and that God is invisible.
Okay. And?

Stop jumping back and forth on the fence. If God's invisible why even consider the question of if he's there or not in the first place?

Again why are we asking the question? I'd like an answer please. I've asked multiple times.

We're both sitting there, you point in at an empty corner of the room and go "Hey. Do you think there's an invisible God we can't see there?" I'm perfectly right in asking you why you are even asking the question.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:23 AM   #1060
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I can accept the notion of a god, however you define it, as being involved in creation. I don't entirely discount the possibility what's more, although I think it most unlikely.

The notion of a caring god, who takes great interest in our activities, I find much harder to accept. This not only because the god seemingly prefers not to intervene in our favour, and keeps itself invisible, but because the purpose behind our creation eludes me.

When we progress to the notion of a god who creates perfect beings, (angels and us), who then turn out to be not perfect, (which is somehow there own fault), then you've lost me altogether.

So then we go still further, to notions of a place of eternal torment, where hapless souls suffer for eternity, just because they don't believe in the the secretive god.

I mean it just gets sillier and sillier.

I think that Ame Perdue said it best in the New Rubaiyat:

"But still I hear the Wrangling Sects proclaim
Their Paradises and their Seas of Flame,
Their Holy Ghosts and mystic Trinities.
With no degree of Intellectual Shame."

Yes "Intellectual Shame" is what's missing.
If God exists why does he just sit there when terrible things happen to people?
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:37 AM   #1061
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
If God exists why does he just sit there when terrible things happen to people?
Why do you? If we're made in his image, and you aren't doing anything to fight "terrible things", it sounds like a self answering question.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:46 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe, since Genesis says God created the heavens and the earth. As for invisible, who knows about most? I just knew I couldn't see him/her/it.
You realize that these two qualities are what Darat refers to as a "pgod" of my own creation?
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:51 AM   #1063
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Minoosh’s position sounds like it’s the (IMO misplaced) feeling that they’re in too insignificant a position (ability to know things wise) to make a ruling on something that seems so important.
Pretty close. I can't see anything outside my frame of reference.
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Old 14th February 2020, 11:00 AM   #1064
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
We know Dart's exist and commonly dwell in garages. This is a mundane claim.
It's not that mundane a claim if we are talking about a first-iteration Dart. If it's a rhetorical Dart, never mind. I'm not asking for extraordinary evidence. I'll accept a yes or no because I consider Joe to be reliable.
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Old 14th February 2020, 11:41 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What a load of rubbish you post.



The vast majority of Abrahamic God believers believe that God created the universe and that God is invisible.
Have you heard of this Jesus bloke?
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Old 14th February 2020, 11:43 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You realize that these two qualities are what Darat refers to as a "pgod" of my own creation?
No he doesn't but do feel free to continue to lie about what I've been posting.
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Old 14th February 2020, 11:47 AM   #1067
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No he doesn't but do feel free to continue to lie about what I've been posting.
It would be against the MA for me to respond in kind.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:24 PM   #1068
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Why do you?
I don't!

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If we're made in his image,
We'd be invisible!

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
and you aren't doing anything to fight "terrible things",
I am!

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
it sounds like a self answering question.
Nah. Sounds like god belief brain dulled theistic crap to me!
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:27 PM   #1069
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
If God exists why does he just sit there when terrible things happen to people?

I know this is a derail from the "psion versus all comers" thread but thanks for your input Cainkane.

Yes the silliness really rears its head, when we talk of a god who loves and cares for everyone, but no evidence for this is found. We even have a god who seemingly smites people, (that is if you accept he has control over the weather), when they are worshiping him. As churches are often struck by lightening.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:32 PM   #1070
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Why do you? If we're made in his image, and you aren't doing anything to fight "terrible things", it sounds like a self answering question.

The logic of this is so convoluted it makes my head spin.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:34 PM   #1071
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The logic of this is so convoluted it makes my head spin.
And people that can write and believe such crap get to vote and serve on juries
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:44 PM   #1072
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
And people that can write and believe such crap get to vote and serve on juries

Yes, scary is it not.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:46 PM   #1073
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes, scary is it not.
Yep. I've served on six juries with such people . . . REALLY SCARY!
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:56 PM   #1074
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's not that mundane a claim if we are talking about a first-iteration Dart. If it's a rhetorical Dart, never mind. I'm not asking for extraordinary evidence. I'll accept a yes or no because I consider Joe to be reliable.
Yes I have a Dart, of the new iteration (2013). It's bright orange and we named it Al after Al Bundy.
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Old 14th February 2020, 03:16 PM   #1075
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I know this is a derail from the "psion versus all comers" thread but thanks for your input Cainkane.

Yes the silliness really rears its head, when we talk of a god who loves and cares for everyone, but no evidence for this is found. We even have a god who seemingly smites people, (that is if you accept he has control over the weather), when they are worshiping him. As churches are often struck by lightening.
And given that the Christian God is known as "our Father", he is at best an absentee father. Or worse - just recall what he did to his son!

Therefore, he should have been paying child support to everybody, for the time when they were children!

I demand that my payment be sent NOW!!! Including interest!
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Old 14th February 2020, 04:35 PM   #1076
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You realize that these two qualities are what Darat refers to as a "pgod" of my own creation?
And your point is? I haven't understood anything you have posted.

IMV, you have been playing word games. Never really saying what you believe. And when people try to pin you down you accuse them of strawmanning your position.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:12 AM   #1077
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
IMV, you have been playing word games. Never really saying what you believe. And when people try to pin you down you accuse them of strawmanning your position.
Would you ask me what I truly believe if we were discussing magnetic monopoles?

Why is attempting to explore the concept of a deity from a scientific POV so different? Why must we never question whether random forces really exist? Why is the idea that matter/energy or the laws of physics are eternal such a sacrosanct concept?
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:55 AM   #1078
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Would you ask me what I truly believe if we were discussing magnetic monopoles?
Yep.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why is attempting to explore the concept of a deity from a scientific POV so different?
From a science perspective, no. We can quite happily explore such a question. I have no clue why you seem to think this is verbotten.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why must we never question whether random forces really exist?
Because they have never been demonstrated to exist.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why is the idea that matter/energy or the laws of physics are eternal such a sacrosanct concept?
It isn't. I have no clue what led you to that nonsense.
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:17 AM   #1079
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yep.

From a science perspective, no. We can quite happily explore such a question. I have no clue why you seem to think this is verbotten.

Because they have never been demonstrated to exist.

It isn't. I have no clue what led you to that nonsense.
After 20 pages of this, you have clearly gone into a massive denial mode.
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:26 AM   #1080
abaddon
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
After 20 pages of this, you have clearly gone into a massive denial mode.
Denial of what, exactly?
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