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Old 12th February 2020, 04:43 AM   #921
Robin
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Also, somewhere along the line I have missed the link to the video with the tow truck. Anyone have it handy?
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:16 AM   #922
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In case anyone is wondering, I think the simplest and probably correct explanation for the discrepancy between Lloyde's report about where his taxi stopped and the photographs is that Lloyde was simply mistaken about where he came to a stop, experienced cabbie or not.
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:35 AM   #923
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
In case anyone is wondering, I think the simplest and probably correct explanation for the discrepancy between Lloyde's report about where his taxi stopped and the photographs is that Lloyde was simply mistaken about where he came to a stop, experienced cabbie or not.
In fact, that's the simplest and most obvious explanation of every piece of evidence the CIT have ever presented, seasoned with a touch of carefully applied prejudicial bias by the investigators themselves. The idea that any of this discussion was ever worth progressing beyond the response that witness accounts are notoriously unreliable in small details, such as exact directions and distances, but are generally reliable with respect to general events that all agree on, such as that a fricken' enormous airliner crashed smack bang into the wall of the Pentagon, is utterly absurd.

Dave
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:37 AM   #924
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
I don't believe this is correct.

She says she was on Washington Blvd/Route 27, underneath the last 395 overpass when she looked to her left, where the Navy Annex was and saw the plane moving along the hill. She also says she got out of her car and climbed up the overpass to watch what was going on.
OK after listening to Cheryl's video (2002) yes she was where you indicated.
And Robin posted the transcript, thank you both for correcting me. She was indeed headed north, and as others have pointed out she climbed the berm up to the overpass/bridge to see what she could observe. So the image of the car that ruby is still not Cheryl's as it is too far south of the heliport.

My apologies to all in my mistake.
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:00 AM   #925
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
RubyGray, please look again. The cuffs are indeed visible.
I know! The sleeves were sewed to the jacket to make it appear like he had long sleeves. Oh man, this plot is brilliant!
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:03 AM   #926
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
In fact, that's the simplest and most obvious explanation of every piece of evidence the CIT have ever presented, seasoned with a touch of carefully applied prejudicial bias by the investigators themselves. The idea that any of this discussion was ever worth progressing beyond the response that witness accounts are notoriously unreliable in small details, such as exact directions and distances, but are generally reliable with respect to general events that all agree on, such as that a fricken' enormous airliner crashed smack bang into the wall of the Pentagon, is utterly absurd.

Dave
Yup, this. Eyewitness testimony, properly assessed with an expectation of its imperfections and in context with physical evidence, can certainly have a place in assembling a clear picture of an event. But the CT methodology on display here is to hyper-focus on the excruciating minutiae of the testimony as if that's all there is; and the effect of that is to blow a squid-like cloud of ink that obscures the picture instead. Whether that's the intent of the particular CTist or not, it's only to their benefit that clarity is lost in favor of the visual muddle that results.
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:18 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
I suspect that the Detective who "pushed him down" administered some anaesthetic or hypnotic substance, then bundled him into a vehicle, under pretence of sending him off for medical assistance to get him out of the way for a few minutes. Lloyde would then have been let out on top of the bridge with a suggestion that he watch the show.
Could you name those substances? Something that comes on quickly and wears off just as quickly? I've not seen any anesthetic that works that way. Anything that removes you from reality takes a while to metabolize. Hell, even if you knock someone out with percussive force or a blood choke, it still takes a few minutes for them to regain balance, let alone coherence.

What you've got there is a Hollywood plot device, not something that actually exists.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:59 PM   #928
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
I suspect that the Detective who "pushed him down" administered some anaesthetic or hypnotic substance, then bundled him into a vehicle, under pretence of sending him off for medical assistance to get him out of the way for a few minutes. Lloyde would then have been let out on top of the bridge with a suggestion that he watch the show.


What the ever-lovin ****.
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:44 PM   #929
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
In case anyone is wondering, I think the simplest and probably correct explanation for the discrepancy between Lloyde's report about where his taxi stopped and the photographs is that Lloyde was simply mistaken about where he came to a stop, experienced cabbie or not.
If I had nearly died because of a pole entering my car I think that would justify having a lapse of memory.
And he didn't have CIT script him off camera, something ruby won't addresses.
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Old 12th February 2020, 03:02 PM   #930
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
If I had nearly died because of a pole entering my car I think that would justify having a lapse of memory.
And he didn't have CIT script him off camera, something ruby won't addresses.

It's obvious that whatever ruby insists about the truthiness of England's testimony only one conclusion can be drawn. CIT was right. Lloyde is clearly in on it. Why would TPTB spend so much time driving a cab around on a flat bed truck when, in fact, that very same truck is loaded to the max with airplane parts covered with a black tarp. Didn't CIT prove that Lloyde's wife worked for the FBI? I mean, "hello"!
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:32 PM   #931
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These might be helpful to weed through the stupid:





These light poles are designed to snap off during on impact (usually from the ground). They're light...light poles...



Source: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:33 PM   #932
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
If I had nearly died because of a pole entering my car I think that would justify having a lapse of memory.
And he didn't have CIT script him off camera, something ruby won't addresses.
And the fact that he can never simply explain why his car is up there in the photographs shows that he is not recollecting everything anyway.
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:37 PM   #933
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Ruby can you explain to us why you have two Lloyd England's in this photo ?




First you have the one up north of the bridge.

And then you have the one standing next to the open door of his cab.

Has Aubrey Davis just dropped off one Lloyd England and now he is going to chuck a Uey in his brown Jeep and pick up the other one. There is not a third Lloyd England riding shotgun in the Jeep is there ?
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:50 PM   #934
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The more Lloyd Englands you can find the more likely the conspiracy.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:19 AM   #935
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ruby How many individuals gave the FBI NoC information?
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:52 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The more Lloyd Englands you can find the more likely the conspiracy.
Wait a sec - Ma England had identical twins, or triplets!
Now that explains why "he" (they!!!) couldn't keep the story straight!
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:22 PM   #937
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Update.
In just under 4 weeks, my LLOYDE ENGLAND thread has clocked up 7,000 new views.
29,000 views now.
And this proves what?
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:23 PM   #938
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
How long would it take to
(a) determine that the Lincoln Town Car would not start and could not be driven (due to the safety feature which cut off the fuel after a significant jolt),
and
(b) summon a towtruck with low loader trailer on a morning like this, in congested traffic?

When Lloyde himself called for a truck to remove his cab from the bridge, it dod not turn up for several hours. The cab appears there in many photos until the afternoon.

Yet by some extraordinary coincidence, there just happened to be a towtruck with handy trailer right there behind LLoyde's taxi just 4 minutes after the impact?
By the way, the Pentagon have their own on-site tow truck to go with their own on-site vehicle impound lot. So if there was a tow truck soon after the impact, that would be no surprise.

Again the issue is that there is no evidence that I can see that the cab was moved or that there would be time to move it or that it could be done without England seeing it or that the position where we see the cab in the pictures is not simply where Lloyde came to a stop and he has misremembered.
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Last edited by Robin; 13th February 2020 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:29 PM   #939
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Originally Posted by Athyrio View Post
And this proves what?
The undiminished popularity of train wrecks.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:39 PM   #940
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Let's talk about trees for a minute Ruby.

Let's talk about this tree in particular.



As you can see it is right in front of the control tower Sean Boger was stationed at on 911. It is blocking a significant portion of his view.

That photo was taken from a helicopter. The red arrow below indicates the location of the helicopter at the time this photo was taken . From the amount of Pentagon roof that can be seen and its distance from the pentagon, the photo indicates an altitude of about 120' above the Pentagon's ground level.



In this photo taken inside the control tower you can see the trees in question outside the window in the back ground.



Red lines in the photo below show the field of view that is blocked by the tree. Sean can't see the Citgo petrol station from his location, so asking him what side it flew by was kind of stupid. You need to ask him what side of the tree he saw it on.



This photo was taken right in front of the heliport tower. The citgo gas station is between the green lines under the tree. The actual flight path flown by AA77 is laid out in red, starting at the red arrow and ending across the lawn. The VDOT radio antenna (yellow arrow) and the DOT camera pole (green arrow) were used as markers to lay out the path. As you can see if AA77 did fly north of the Citgo on the imaginary path you keep flogging, Sean Boger would have not seen the approach. The only way Sean could have seen the approach is if it was south of Citgo, AKA the real flight path.

Sean is a South of Citgo Witness.



In your Flicker account you have this photo labeled "Sean Boger's view from the heliport. That is not quiet accurate. It is missing the tree.



So I downloaded the photo, added the tree and scaled it to size for you, to make it, you know, more fair dinkum.







Feel free to download the photo and use it any time you're yammering on about Sean Boger's view from the heliport.

Last edited by waypastvne; 13th February 2020 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:34 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
These might be helpful to weed through the stupid:

https://i.imgur.com/PhJ2j22.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/M93CrDj.jpg

These light poles are designed to snap off during on impact (usually from the ground). They're light...light poles...

https://i.imgur.com/rAytSul.jpg

Source: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html
Nice research report. No-planers are just dumb from the neck up.
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Old 14th February 2020, 06:51 PM   #942
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Nice research report. No-planers are just dumb from the neck up.
Well you sure are turning nasty.
You used to be about the most civil of the vipers in this pit.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:02 PM   #943
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Let's talk about trees for a minute Ruby.

Let's talk about this tree in particular.*



As you can see it is right in front of the control tower Sean Boger was stationed at on 911.

Waypastvne wrote
"This photo was taken right in front of the heliport tower. The citgo gas station is between the green lines under the tree.
"The actual flight path flown by AA77 is laid out in red, starting at the red arrow and ending across the lawn.
"The VDOT radio antenna (yellow arrow) and the DOT camera pole (green arrow) were used as markers to lay out the path. As you can see if AA77 did fly north of the Citgo on the imaginary path you keep flogging, Sean Boger would have not seen the approach. The only way Sean could have seen the approach is if it was south of Citgo, AKA the real flight path.*

"Sean is a South of Citgo Witness."

Too many errors in your post to cover right now, but at least you are admitting the plane flew in a significant RIGHT BANK on its final approach, even though you have it in the wrong place.

Sean is not a Southside witness, because he said the plane flew to the right (his right side = NORTH) of the Navy Annex, which was 5 storeys high up on that hill way above those trees.

Sean Boger knew very well where the Citgo station was in relation to the Navy Annex and heliport tower.

Try finding a first-person quote from Sean Boger stating that the plane flew in from south of the Navy Annex, way to his left, in a dead straight line diagonally across the bridge (which is NOT the flightpath you have drawn).
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:37 PM   #944
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Well you sure are turning nasty.
You used to be about the most civil of the vipers in this pit.
Did I say you were?
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:43 PM   #945
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The CIT guy says it himself, either Boger is wrong about the flight path or he is wrong about the plane hitting the building. They choose to believe that he is also wrong about when he hit the deck.
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:28 AM   #946
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post



Surely, if I was mistaken, there would have been crowds of people correcting me by now
You’re not that important
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:07 AM   #947
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post

Try finding a first-person quote from Sean Boger stating that the plane flew in from south of the Navy Annex, way to his left, in a dead straight line diagonally across the bridge.

Why bother? What’s more important to you anyway - from what direction he said the plane was coming or where he said it ended up?
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:37 PM   #948
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CIT has no idea how to examine witness testimony
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Old 15th February 2020, 02:26 PM   #949
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Originally Posted by Trojan View Post
CIT has no idea how to examine witness testimony
I disagree; I think CIT are quite good at examining witness testimony so as to lead the witness to say what they want him or her to say. If the aim is to promote a lie, that's very effective approach.

Dave
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Old 15th February 2020, 02:31 PM   #950
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I disagree; I think CIT are quite good at examining witness testimony so as to lead the witness to say what they want him or her to say. If the aim is to promote a lie, that's very effective approach.

Dave
I agree whole heartily with your comments. That's why I continue to ask ruby IF ANY witness gave a north flight path to the FBI.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:30 PM   #951
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The FBI might have collected witness statements but they'd also tell you that those statements are immaterial because, and stop me if you've heard this before, they have the wreckage of AA77 INSIDE THREE RINGS of the PENTAGON. I could be wrong but the wreckage of a 255,000 pound aircraft along with the charred remains of the passengers is the ultimate smoking gun.

What it did or didn't do on final approach has ZERO bearing on this story.
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:43 PM   #952
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I disagree; I think CIT are quite good at examining witness testimony so as to lead the witness to say what they want him or her to say. If the aim is to promote a lie, that's very effective approach.



Dave
Yep, they are quite adept at leading questions and forcing cards.
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:35 AM   #953
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Yep, they are quite adept at leading questions and forcing cards.
Whole lot of hot air on this page, unsupported by any examples.

CIT in fact were usually absolutely neutral when questioning witnesses.

I agree that they failed dismally with their technique when interviewing Lloyde England. He was the first eyewitness they ever interviewed. They were influenced by the Jason Ingersoll photo collection which showed Lloyde and his cab on the bridge. They got his story 100% wrong, and this also skewed their interpretation of the testimonies of numerous others.

Had they believed Lloyde England from the start, they would have been able to also accept at face value the testimonies of

Father Stephen McGraw
Joel Sucherman
Vin Narayanan
Mary Ann Owens

as these all corroborate each other, and all 5 of them are Northside witnesses.
CIT would have had a whole lot more witnesses attesting the Northside flightpath, were it not for that staged photo session on the bridge.

Yet you guys cannot see why this tableau would have been bothered with.
It fooled almost the entire world.
Including you, and tragically, though at least they smelled a rat, it fooled Craig and Aldo.

Never mind that they muffed their interviews with Lloyde.
They got them recorded on video for the world to see.
And Lloyde England never fell for their accusations. He maintained his story graciously to the end.

HE WAS NOT ON THE BRIDGE WHEN IT HAPPENED.

If you all are so convinced that CIT led their witnesses, then I agree with you that they tried with Lloyde, but failed miserably.
So go through Lloyde's lengthy, detailed accounts, and see for yourselves the truth that he told, despite the inexperienced, biased interrogations by Craig, Russell and Aldo.
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:37 AM   #954
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
You’re not that important
You are rubbish at writing a post with any content.
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:43 AM   #955
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
ruby How many individuals gave the FBI NoC information?
As if the FBI is ever going to tell you that!!
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:03 AM   #956
rubygray
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The FBI might have collected witness statements but they'd also tell you that those statements are immaterial because, and stop me if you've heard this before, they have the wreckage of AA77 INSIDE THREE RINGS of the PENTAGON. I could be wrong but the wreckage of a 255,000 pound aircraft along with the charred remains of the passengers is the ultimate smoking gun.

What it did or didn't do on final approach has ZERO bearing on this story.
You will be able to provide us with the FBI's long list of aircraft parts matched by serial numbers to N644AA, then? To prove that the parts found were from AA77. Which never left the ground on 9/11/2001, according to the official Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

That will be a first!

http://www.911forum.org.uk/archive/d...thholmgren.htm
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:39 AM   #957
gabeygoat
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
You are rubbish at writing a post with any content.
‘K
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:05 AM   #958
rubygray
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WAYPASTVNE wrote:
"In this photo taken inside the control tower you can see the trees in question outside the window in the back ground."

Disputed.

The tree which you claim blocked Boger's view of the Citgo, the south one, was about 150 yards from the heliport tower.

The leaves on the tree outside these windows are certainly much closer than that.

I suggest this photo faces the north windows of the tower, with Boger and Kidd facing east, towards the console, which obviously would be built into the enclosed rear part of the office, not in the open viewing area.

There were large trees to the north of the heliport tower, which are seen here.

WAYPASTVNE wrote:

"Red lines in the photo below show the field of view that is blocked by the tree. Sean can't see the Citgo petrol station from his location, so asking him what side it flew by was kind of stupid. You need to ask him what side of the tree he saw it on."

Wrong again.
That is not the tree you think it is.
Your lines of sight were not accurate. You drew them alongside the shadow of the tree on the ground, making the "black spot" too large.
Trees are not a solid object. As another of your photos clearly shows, trees are somewhat transparent.
Especially around the trunk, or when the wind is blowing, and in winter when they have shed their leaves.

Sean Boger was perfectly well aware that the Citgo station was just across the road from the Arlington National Cemetery parking lot, and in front of the Navy Annex.

I do not need to ask Sean Boger which side of the Citgo the plane flew, as this question had already been asked. It was a very intelligent question actually, because if the plane was north of the Citgo, then this proves it cannot have flown across the bridge.

CIT video
"HELIPORT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER SEAN BOGER"


07:30
SEAN BOGER
When I saw the plane he was practically in front of the Navy Annex.
... And he was coming at a angle. You know his wings were tilted. Almost like he was in a ... Like trying to bank towards the Pentagon Building.

Aldo Marquis
So you would say like he was kind of turning towards the Pentagon.


YEAH.

OK. And you could SEE THE GAS STATION FROM THERE, CORRECT, the Citgo?

YES.

OK. Would you say ... Which side of the gas station would you say the plane was on as it approached. Was it on the left? As you're looking at the gas station, would it be more to the right, like the Arlington Cemetery side? Or would it be to the ...

It would be ON MY RIGHT and the gas station's left. If I'm looking out the window so I'm looking towards the gas station, it would be ON MY RIGHT HAND SIDE.

OK. So and if you're at the gas station like at the back of the store, with your back to the store, facing the Pentagon, it would have been to the left of the gas station.

YES.

OK. so it was closer to Arlington Cemetery rather than the highway, Route 27, right.

YEAH.

Yeah, that's exactly what we've been hearing from ... so yeah, so it would essentially have had to come over the Navy Annex, essentially over, would you have guessed the middle of the Navy Annex, or more to the ... to your right, or more to your left?

I WOULD SAY MORE TO THE RIGHT ALSO.
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:17 AM   #959
bknight
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Whole lot of hot air on this page, unsupported by any examples.

CIT in fact were usually absolutely neutral when questioning witnesses.

I agree that they failed dismally with their technique when interviewing Lloyde England. He was the first eyewitness they ever interviewed. They were influenced by the Jason Ingersoll photo collection which showed Lloyde and his cab on the bridge. They got his story 100% wrong, and this also skewed their interpretation of the testimonies of numerous others.

Had they believed Lloyde England from the start, they would have been able to also accept at face value the testimonies of

Father Stephen McGraw
Joel Sucherman
Vin Narayanan
Mary Ann Owens

as these all corroborate each other, and all 5 of them are Northside witnesses.
CIT would have had a whole lot more witnesses attesting the Northside flightpath, were it not for that staged photo session on the bridge.

Yet you guys cannot see why this tableau would have been bothered with.
It fooled almost the entire world.
Including you, and tragically, though at least they smelled a rat, it fooled Craig and Aldo.

Never mind that they muffed their interviews with Lloyde.
They got them recorded on video for the world to see.
And Lloyde England never fell for their accusations. He maintained his story graciously to the end.

HE WAS NOT ON THE BRIDGE WHEN IT HAPPENED.

If you all are so convinced that CIT led their witnesses, then I agree with you that they tried with Lloyde, but failed miserably.
So go through Lloyde's lengthy, detailed accounts, and see for yourselves the truth that he told, despite the inexperienced, biased interrogations by Craig, Russell and Aldo.
What you don't see is the conversation before the cameras roll. CIT is anything but neutral. They have an agenda that you don't perceive.
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:21 AM   #960
rubygray
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
In case anyone is wondering, I think the simplest and probably correct explanation for the discrepancy between Lloyde's report about where his taxi stopped and the photographs is that Lloyde was simply mistaken about where he came to a stop, experienced cabbie or not.
That accusation has been made many times over the years.

It is nothing but defamation and leads to baseless speculation.
This approach has been done to death and gotten nowhere.

I am taking the radical approach of believing that Lloyde the 50 years career cabbie knew absolutely where he was at that time on 9/11/2001, just as every one else in the world did.

He was not senile, he was not confused, he was not forgetful, he was not a liar, and he most certainly was no accomplice.

He may very well have been drugged to render him compliant and suggestible during the few minutes surrounding the relocation of his cab and the photo session.

It is true that he had no knowledge of how his cab was impaled at one location, while the photos show him at another, less than 20 minutes later. He was genuinely perplexed when Craig Ranke showed him photos of the cab posed on the bridge, which he had never seen before. His words are poignant.

"IT'S FACING THE WRONG WAY!"

When his cab skidded to a halt, it was opposite the heliport, and facing towards the impact site. His cab was then about 150 yards NORTHWEST of the fire.

But when the cab was photographed on the bridge, it was pointing directly AWAY from the impact site, about 330 yards SOUTHWEST of the fire.
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